> You can max counter stats without companions and without having to reach 68k etc. I have already done so in 1v1 tests with a buddy. Im far from bis as well. Maxing stats =/= reach 68k number as far as pvp goes.
>
> LOL 68k IS NOT THE CAP IN PVP!!!
>
> In fact, the only caps in PVP are the % caps, everything else w/ a counter stat is based on your opponent's counter stat. If you have 68k crit, and I have 40k crit avoid, your crit chance is only 33%. Now take into consideration that arm pen is handicapped by 60%, so in order to reach 50% RI assuming an opponent w/ 50k defense (not hard to do), you need 125k arm pen. If you can reach that arm pen w/o pets and not get one rotated by pugs, then you are truly a ninja.
>
> And yeah, this mod all you gotta do to be untouchable is stack deflect, use shadowclad, and survivor's blessing, or use paladin sigil, or wheel of elements for water, and the other broken sources of healing. WOW, such a secret build bro.
68k cap was followed by etc. It was relative. My deflect is 15k. I dont need pally sigil. Never said i had a secret build. Thats your assumption. I said people do not share builds that works.
I also mentioned since mod 11 on ps4 no cw besides the guy i test with has been able to defeat me 1v1. Pretty sure dating back to mod 11 all these current things being abused did not exist or were useless back then (i.e pve gear, pally sigil, holy avenger etc <-- again etc is there. Meaning it's not definitive, nor did i list everything, i digress).
Lastly thanks for proving my point. You do not need to max out a stat in pvp. You simply need to reach a treshold that will counter the offensive stats of your opponent. That does not require being bis.
Removing companions helps to achieve the original goal of this thread, making it so people cannot counter everything. A companion grants you the EXACT same bonus as a guild boon. Again next to no one wants companions to stay in pvp.
"68k cap was followed by etc. It was relative." right, I edited my post to reflect that, as a programmer, I am used to using != to represent "not equals"...
Removing sources of stats w/o the combined rating system also increases the difficulty of reaching the threshold on defensive stats to counter offensive stats. And ofc it's easier to reach that threshold on defensive stats, you only need to reach a minimum that reduces the viability and potential of the offensive stat. On the flip side, it's even harder to reach a threshold where your offensive stat is a viable choice. So no, I did not make your point for you, you're point only highlights some of the problems w/ the mechanics that we currently have, and removing any source of stats w/o the combined rating system only exacerbates the issue.
"For example my cw with companions on has died once in 17 matches of solo que. None of my stats reach the max value. My one death came from a 1v5 on node 1 for two mins." This is what I was referring to when I mentioned broken healing in pvp. Idc what happened pre-mod16.
The original goal of this thread was to talk about PVP Boons, not companions. Ya know what I like about more boons? Another source of stats w/o the combined rating system.
When people say we need to remove companion stat bonuses from PVP, they are confusing two issues. One is the discrepancy in power (stat) levels between players, i.e. we need different tiers. The other is that the cost to upgrade companions needs to be reduced.
Post edited by quickfoot#7851 on
0
kalina311Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,082Arc User
edited July 2019
companions are fine as long as there is scaled and unscaled Q ?/ beginner intermediate / advanced(unscalled) ... if proper matchmaking / pool of players increased would they matter as much ?
If Q types remain the same The debate follows do companions need to be in for proper build diversity and counter stats ?/ are there enough points left on the table at the point or does a player have to dump all into one or 2 stats.. .that seems to be the discussion / argument going on ... and if a players is higher item level can he get 5 or 6 stats scalled well .... but then that leads back to unbalanced matches again with improper elo system if there are no scalled Queue for pools of players say of 3 ranges of item level like @Barbie proposed
on another note leaving companion in to allow /setup for proper counter stats / build diversity argument ignores the fact that companions add plethora / large pool of hit points to which there is no direct correlating counter stat of equal magnitude .
on a side note companions upgraded item level are not properly reflected in the game for the amount of stats they give ..when compared to the value/ item level / effectiveness of say a rank 15 radiant enchantment gives (+9600 hitpoints) +120 item level ... example to give ~ .. where an upgraded companion can give 16000hp, and 4000 deflect and only count as +100 item level it should be around double that you are getting almost another + 6400 worth of hitpoints and another rank almost x 2 15 (+ 240 item level ) of deflect.. and this discrepancy is multiplied times every companion type slot you can fill ..i estimate this can skew the item level/ gear score by a couple thousand points
also it is not subjected to the devs area scalling so at least those investments are worth more
so if there ever were proper matchmaking based on item level/ gear score that would have to be looked into as well item level is starting to get out of wack again/ not accurate for pvp and pve.. also deceiving pve players that just meet the minimum requirements for dungeons so they dont realize how far behind in gear score they really are for the challenge compared to others ..
same thing goes for item level based of epic insignia. their gear score ratio to benefit item level ratio/ comparison to stats they bring is wrong ... specially those adding companion influence
this is also partially due to the devs doubling the value of all enchantments/ stats so they would retain more value / matter more.. however a pass was not done to re balance out item level / gear score value of certain gear / items/ insignia / companions to bring them in line to what they are really worth in terms of gear score
No. Get rid of companions in Pvp. There are companions giving broken effects. Anyone remembers the cockatrice? They are also sources of broken healing and how people can stack ridiculous amount of Hp. The devs will make more companions in future and I don’t trust them to think that they won’t produce another “cockatrice”. It’s another thing that they have to balance if they wanna include comps in pvp. Why not just disable them for pvp.
You can max counter stats without companions and without having to reach 68k etc. I have already done so in 1v1 tests with a buddy. Im far from bis as well. Maxing stats =/= reach 68k number as far as pvp goes.
The only caps in PVP are the % caps, everything else w/ a counter stat is based on your opponent's counter stat. If you have 68k crit, and I have 40k crit avoid, your crit chance is only 33%. Now take into consideration that arm pen is handicapped by 60%, so in order to reach 50% RI assuming an opponent w/ 50k defense (not hard to do), you need 125k arm pen. If you can reach that arm pen w/o pets and not get one rotated by pugs, then you are truly a ninja. If you're reaching 50% crit or w/ less than 68k crit, it's because your opponent isn't stacking any crit avoid.
If you can't understand that limiting the stat pool any further is a bad idea, idk what to tell you, but I'm pretty sure all this complaining about companion stat bonuses mostly stems from jealousy, not any actual facts or mathematics. At an extreme, if you limit the stat pool to 40k stats and put all of that into crit, the most crit % you can have is 45% assuming 0 crit avoid your opponent. The problem though, will be that you will get facerolled by everyone because you have no defense or deflect. The more you limit that stat pool, the more you reduce the viability of certain builds. And the more you remove sources of stats that don't have the "Combined Rating" like insignias and companion bonuses, the more you wash out any benefit of counter stats, builds will be more "flat", meaning it will be harder to push any one of those %'s to it's cap!
A crit based build w/ less than 10% crit chance is not viable. Keep in mind, you need 45k more crit than your opponent has crit avoid. Removing companions from the stat pool effectively removes 36k to 40k stats from the stat pool. All this is going to do is further reduce the viability of certain builds (not just crit based builds). With the size of the stat pool as it is, on average the most crit % you're going to get w/o sacrificing everything else is about 30%-40%, and even then you are sacrificing quite a bit because again, you have get past that crit avoid gap.
And yeah, this mod all you gotta do to be untouchable is stack some deflect, use shadowclad, and survivor's blessing, or use paladin sigil, or wheel of elements for water, and the other broken sources of healing. WOW, such a secret build bro. < -- Actually a problem in pvp right now.
The issue your dealing with is that the % caps in PvE are there since the monsters we fight in different areas have static stats we know about. The issue in PvP is that your stats to "CAP" them are going to vary depending on the stats that the other player went into that content with. To "CAP" your stats you have to be 50k over the other players stats. In other words, it will be different every time you fight someone. The only thing that adding in extra comps does is give an advantage to the player who can afford the cost of those extra items and is a benefit since you have more stat points to put onto your character. Also, other games have published papers on the fact that the ONLY way to get players into PvP mods is to make the modes as close to equal at the start as possible. The more you give players the ability to out play each other instead of out stat another person the more likely they will stay with PvP in your game. Rewards are a short term thing and will only bring the "PvPers to the yard" as long as they give out those free milkshakes. Also, once everyone is full on milkshakes it isn't going to bring them to the yard and your back to watching cacti roll by you in the pvp queue to get into one of those 5 to 10 matches that go each day.
Guild Leader: Under the Influence Yule (Barb): 72k : Siren (TR): 78k : Torun (DC): 73k : Siren OP (OP): 76k : Siren SW (SW): 78k : Modern (F): 80k : Cherry1 (CW) : 68k Siren HR (HR): 78k
You can max counter stats without companions and without having to reach 68k etc. I have already done so in 1v1 tests with a buddy. Im far from bis as well. Maxing stats =/= reach 68k number as far as pvp goes.
The only caps in PVP are the % caps, everything else w/ a counter stat is based on your opponent's counter stat. If you have 68k crit, and I have 40k crit avoid, your crit chance is only 33%. Now take into consideration that arm pen is handicapped by 60%, so in order to reach 50% RI assuming an opponent w/ 50k defense (not hard to do), you need 125k arm pen. If you can reach that arm pen w/o pets and not get one rotated by pugs, then you are truly a ninja. If you're reaching 50% crit or w/ less than 68k crit, it's because your opponent isn't stacking any crit avoid.
If you can't understand that limiting the stat pool any further is a bad idea, idk what to tell you, but I'm pretty sure all this complaining about companion stat bonuses mostly stems from jealousy, not any actual facts or mathematics. At an extreme, if you limit the stat pool to 40k stats and put all of that into crit, the most crit % you can have is 45% assuming 0 crit avoid your opponent. The problem though, will be that you will get facerolled by everyone because you have no defense or deflect. The more you limit that stat pool, the more you reduce the viability of certain builds. And the more you remove sources of stats that don't have the "Combined Rating" like insignias and companion bonuses, the more you wash out any benefit of counter stats, builds will be more "flat", meaning it will be harder to push any one of those %'s to it's cap!
A crit based build w/ less than 10% crit chance is not viable. Keep in mind, you need 45k more crit than your opponent has crit avoid. Removing companions from the stat pool effectively removes 36k to 40k stats from the stat pool. All this is going to do is further reduce the viability of certain builds (not just crit based builds). With the size of the stat pool as it is, on average the most crit % you're going to get w/o sacrificing everything else is about 30%-40%, and even then you are sacrificing quite a bit because again, you have get past that crit avoid gap.
And yeah, this mod all you gotta do to be untouchable is stack some deflect, use shadowclad, and survivor's blessing, or use paladin sigil, or wheel of elements for water, and the other broken sources of healing. WOW, such a secret build bro. < -- Actually a problem in pvp right now.
Hi, where can i find information about defense and armor pen. You say that with 50k def, opponent must have about 125 arm pen.
As someone who has played Neverwinter since before PvP was even implemented at all, I cast my vote (for what it's worth) for no companions of any kind in any PvP mode. Keep insignias, even keep mounts - but companion interactions in PvP are buggy and all over the map and are even worse now with the updated Companion systems. I was among the chorus of the ignored begging for companions to be disabled from SH PvP else it be a failure, and.... turns out the chorus was right.
PvP has become a wasteland, which is too bad because a good competitive PvP match is about the most fun you can have in Neverwinter. It blows away any PvE content. Sadly, though, it's nearly impossible to find a truly competitive match unless you put it together via Private... and then you don't get any rewards.
Put simply: Revamping the PvP campaign without first fixing PvP matches so it's possible for most players to compete and earn the rewards will be a massive waste of time that would be better spent fixing the boundless problems in PvE instead. It's a chicken and the egg problem - you can just add better rewards to the current system because no one will bother. They might try a couple matches, but after being rotflstomped a few times in a row, that will be it. From a stats perspective, you test will feel like a huge failure and you'll move on to non-pvp - which is foolish because the underlying criteria and thing you'd be testing would have been flawed from the start.
Forget the reward system and campaign for now. Instead, figure out how to make PvP competitive for the middle, say, 60% of players. What I mean is, characters that are in the bottom 20% (whatever that happens to mean) will always be unviable and basically hamburger. The top 20% will always be top end and probably always on winning teams (under the current circumstances), and will therefore typically be huge PvP advocates. The middle 60, though, that's the bulk of the player base - those are the ppl you need to impress with PvP or it will remain dead in the water. If you can't attract a good portion of those middle 60% of players by making it so they can compete fairly and have fun (as opposed to just getting killed over and over and over and over then losing.... which isn't very fun) -- all your time, code, effort, and thinking about PvP will be entirely wasted.
Given how much talk has come our of Cryptic of late about being short on time, and having to prioritize things so heavily -- I would be a terrible business decision to spend any effort that is destined to fail merely because you guys put the cart before the horse (aka, tried to fix rewards on a broken system instead of first fixed the broken system so you could then provide appropriate rewards).
What they need to do, is get rid of the combined rating system (not stat bonuses from companion player bonus). It makes it very easy to reach all the caps in PVE, which makes new gear less appealing, not needed at all, nor desirable compared to old gear with %dmg bonuses, it also devalued tri and dual stat enchants by around 30%-50%. The combined rating system also flattens out the stat distribution in PVP which is bad because it makes counter stats more meaningless the flatter the average stat distribution becomes.
From latest patch notes for preview: " Content and Environment PvP Added a passive speed boost of 15% when flagged for PvP and not in combat. Companion powers no longer work in PVP. "
Hope you guys are happy, combined rating system with less sources of stats without the combined rating system, not good. Just because more people vote for something, doesn't make it a good idea. Look at Trump for example. Likely they caved because it was the easier than making different queues for different levels of players (weight divisions). Why do that when they can just cut the legs off the heavyweight players?
People still play this game for PVP? It's like a dog starving to death waiting on its master to feed it when it could just run away.
Didn't you already say that you haven't played Neverwinter since January? So isn't it more like a player that leaves a game but keeps coming back to the forums to give their opinion on things that have changed since they left the game?
1
kalina311Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,082Arc User
You need to fix the guild Pvp boons as well and remove substitute the drains for something else
You need to fix the guild Pvp boons as well and remove substitute the drains for something else
Yes. I am the Guardian Fighter. Enemy may drain 10% of my shield per attack, using a sign of stamina drain. BUT i don't care, because he can drain 90% of my shield per attack, using crit.damage.
Comments
Removing sources of stats w/o the combined rating system also increases the difficulty of reaching the threshold on defensive stats to counter offensive stats. And ofc it's easier to reach that threshold on defensive stats, you only need to reach a minimum that reduces the viability and potential of the offensive stat. On the flip side, it's even harder to reach a threshold where your offensive stat is a viable choice. So no, I did not make your point for you, you're point only highlights some of the problems w/ the mechanics that we currently have, and removing any source of stats w/o the combined rating system only exacerbates the issue.
"For example my cw with companions on has died once in 17 matches of solo que. None of my stats reach the max value. My one death came from a 1v5 on node 1 for two mins." This is what I was referring to when I mentioned broken healing in pvp. Idc what happened pre-mod16.
The original goal of this thread was to talk about PVP Boons, not companions. Ya know what I like about more boons? Another source of stats w/o the combined rating system.
When people say we need to remove companion stat bonuses from PVP, they are confusing two issues. One is the discrepancy in power (stat) levels between players, i.e. we need different tiers. The other is that the cost to upgrade companions needs to be reduced.
If Q types remain the same The debate follows do companions need to be in for proper build diversity and counter stats ?/ are there enough points left on the table at the point or does a player have to dump all into one or 2 stats.. .that seems to be the discussion / argument going on ... and if a players is higher item level can he get 5 or 6 stats scalled well .... but then that leads back to unbalanced matches again with improper elo system if there are no scalled Queue for pools of players say of 3 ranges of item level like @Barbie proposed
on another note leaving companion in to allow /setup for proper counter stats / build diversity argument ignores the fact that companions
add plethora / large pool of hit points to which there is no direct correlating counter stat of equal magnitude .
on a side note
companions upgraded item level are not properly reflected in the game for the amount of stats they give ..when compared to the value/ item level / effectiveness of say a rank 15 radiant enchantment gives (+9600 hitpoints) +120 item level ... example to give ~
.. where an upgraded companion can give 16000hp, and 4000 deflect and only count as +100 item level it should be around double that you are getting almost another + 6400 worth of hitpoints and another rank almost x 2 15 (+ 240 item level ) of deflect.. and this discrepancy is multiplied times every companion type slot you can fill ..i estimate this can skew the item level/ gear score by a couple thousand points
also it is not subjected to the devs area scalling so at least those investments are worth more
so if there ever were proper matchmaking based on item level/ gear score that would have to be looked into as well
item level is starting to get out of wack again/ not accurate for pvp and pve.. also deceiving pve players that just meet the minimum requirements for dungeons so they dont realize how far behind in gear score they really are for the challenge compared to others ..
same thing goes for item level based of epic insignia. their gear score ratio to benefit item level ratio/ comparison to stats they bring is wrong ... specially those adding companion influence
this is also partially due to the devs doubling the value of all enchantments/ stats so they would retain more value / matter more.. however a pass was not done to re balance out item level / gear score value of certain gear / items/ insignia / companions to bring them in line to what they are really worth in terms of gear score
Yule (Barb): 72k : Siren (TR): 78k : Torun (DC): 73k : Siren OP (OP): 76k : Siren SW (SW): 78k : Modern (F): 80k : Cherry1 (CW) : 68k Siren HR (HR): 78k
As someone who has played Neverwinter since before PvP was even implemented at all, I cast my vote (for what it's worth) for no companions of any kind in any PvP mode. Keep insignias, even keep mounts - but companion interactions in PvP are buggy and all over the map and are even worse now with the updated Companion systems. I was among the chorus of the ignored begging for companions to be disabled from SH PvP else it be a failure, and.... turns out the chorus was right.
PvP has become a wasteland, which is too bad because a good competitive PvP match is about the most fun you can have in Neverwinter. It blows away any PvE content. Sadly, though, it's nearly impossible to find a truly competitive match unless you put it together via Private... and then you don't get any rewards.
Put simply: Revamping the PvP campaign without first fixing PvP matches so it's possible for most players to compete and earn the rewards will be a massive waste of time that would be better spent fixing the boundless problems in PvE instead. It's a chicken and the egg problem - you can just add better rewards to the current system because no one will bother. They might try a couple matches, but after being rotflstomped a few times in a row, that will be it. From a stats perspective, you test will feel like a huge failure and you'll move on to non-pvp - which is foolish because the underlying criteria and thing you'd be testing would have been flawed from the start.
Forget the reward system and campaign for now. Instead, figure out how to make PvP competitive for the middle, say, 60% of players. What I mean is, characters that are in the bottom 20% (whatever that happens to mean) will always be unviable and basically hamburger. The top 20% will always be top end and probably always on winning teams (under the current circumstances), and will therefore typically be huge PvP advocates. The middle 60, though, that's the bulk of the player base - those are the ppl you need to impress with PvP or it will remain dead in the water. If you can't attract a good portion of those middle 60% of players by making it so they can compete fairly and have fun (as opposed to just getting killed over and over and over and over then losing.... which isn't very fun) -- all your time, code, effort, and thinking about PvP will be entirely wasted.
Given how much talk has come our of Cryptic of late about being short on time, and having to prioritize things so heavily -- I would be a terrible business decision to spend any effort that is destined to fail merely because you guys put the cart before the horse (aka, tried to fix rewards on a broken system instead of first fixed the broken system so you could then provide appropriate rewards).
Sekhmet@kvetchus_
Guilds: Greycloaks, Blackcloaks, Whitecloaks, Goldcloaks, Browncloaks, Spiritcloaks, Bluecloaks, Silvercloaks, Black Dawn
Tredecim: The Cloak Alliance
From latest patch notes for preview:
"
Content and Environment
PvP
Added a passive speed boost of 15% when flagged for PvP and not in combat.
Companion powers no longer work in PVP.
"
Hope you guys are happy, combined rating system with less sources of stats without the combined rating system, not good. Just because more people vote for something, doesn't make it a good idea. Look at Trump for example. Likely they caved because it was the easier than making different queues for different levels of players (weight divisions). Why do that when they can just cut the legs off the heavyweight players?
I am the Guardian Fighter.
Enemy may drain 10% of my shield per attack, using a sign of stamina drain.
BUT i don't care, because he can drain 90% of my shield per attack, using crit.damage.