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PvP Boons

noworries#8859 noworries Posts: 518 Member, Cryptic Developer Cryptic Developer
The PvP Campaign has needed a rework for a long time as it doesn't really reflect the current style of PvP in Neverwinter.

While I won't be discussing much about the campaign itself in this thread, I did want to start a conversation on the new boons. The majority are stat gains. But we have designed a choose 1 of 3 as the final boon which could have an impact on gameplay.

The goals of these were to create options that could create new strategic options for players/counters to specific builds, but at the same time could strategically be countered by other players who designed to combat those powers.

At the same time the goal is that a player couldn't easily counter all of the boons and thus creates more strategy in builds. It is a fine line between powers that can be interesting or strategic and ones that unbalance gameplay, and that is the main reason for posting these ahead of time so that thoughts and feedback can be given before these are live.


All boons are only active while flagged for PvP:



Tier 1 Boons - 3 points to spend
  • Increase Power by 3000/5000/6000
  • Increase Max HP by 12000/20000/24000
  • Increase Armor Pen by 3000/5000/6000
  • Increase Defense by 3000/5000/6000
  • Increase Critical Strike by 3000/5000/6000
  • Increase Critical Avoidance by 3000/5000/6000

Tier 2 Boons - 2 points to spend
  • Increase AP Gain by 6/10%
  • Increase Control Resistance by 6/10%
  • Increase Stamina Gain by 3/5%
  • Increase Recharge Speed by 3/5%

Tier 3 Boons - Choose one
  • Role Reversal - Gain 5% increased damage as a Tank or Healer role. Gain 5% reduced incoming damage as a DPS role.
  • Deep Wound - Critically striking an opponent reduces their incoming healing by 15% for 5 seconds.
  • Adrenaline Rush - Deflecting an incoming attack grants you 15% additional movement speed for 5 seconds.
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Comments

  • thefiresidecatthefiresidecat Posts: 3,878Member Arc User

    The boons certainly seem interesting. I hope they work as stated in the tooltip
    :)

    why are you guys spending time on pvp? pvp is a very tiny portion of the game and it isn't going to bring more players in. the amount of work that would need to go into it to make it worthwhile at all would be huge and basically you'd need to strip all unique abilities away and keep it at like level 30. do a huge variety of maps and game types and do a massive advertising campaign and basically give up on pve and even then you wouldn't get the player base to justify it. lol. there are a lot of great pvp games on the market already that do what you're trying to do a lot better. if you put it to a poll I'd be willing to bet 90% would rather you tried to fix the bugs in pve and gave more content in pve before trying to salvage the quagmire that is pvp in this game

    PvPers are generally whales. Whales bring in a fair amount of money. If the PvP system is good enough it also maintains a certain amount of playerbase without the addition of new content every 3 months.
    Sure there are other PvP games out there, but there aren't many games like Neverwinter. Its only rivals are BDO, which is flawed by design to make people spend more money and Tera, which has a asian high fantasy theme which doesn't appeal to the same demographic.

    I don't think they'd be able to bring in enough whales to make a difference. and tera as high asian fantasy... I think you're being generous, bondage child HAMSTER is more like it. thank god it doesn't appeal to more people. I think it's a waste of resources to spend any time at all on pvp. seriously I'd like to see it put to a vote.
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  • slysnow#2290 slysnow Posts: 110Member Arc User
    > @noworries#8859 said:
    > The PvP Campaign has needed a rework for a long time as it doesn't really reflect the current style of PvP in Neverwinter.
    >
    > While I won't be discussing much about the campaign itself in this thread, I did want to start a conversation on the new boons. The majority are stat gains. But we have designed a choose 1 of 3 as the final boon which could have an impact on gameplay.
    >
    > The goals of these were to create options that could create new strategic options for players/counters to specific builds, but at the same time could strategically be countered by other players who designed to combat those powers.
    >
    > At the same time the goal is that a player couldn't easily counter all of the boons and thus creates more strategy in builds. It is a fine line between powers that can be interesting or strategic and ones that unbalance gameplay, and that is the main reason for posting these ahead of time so that thoughts and feedback can be given before these are live.
    >
    >
    > All boons are only active while flagged for PvP:
    >
    >
    >
    > Tier 1 Boons - 3 points to spend
    > * Increase Power by 3000/5000/6000
    >
    > * Increase Max HP by 12000/20000/24000
    >
    > * Increase Armor Pen by 3000/5000/6000
    >
    > * Increase Defense by 3000/5000/6000
    >
    > * Increase Critical Strike by 3000/5000/6000
    >
    > * Increase Critical Avoidance by 3000/5000/6000
    >
    >
    >
    > Tier 2 Boons - 2 points to spend
    > * Increase AP Gain by 6/10%
    >
    > * Increase Control Resistance by 6/10%
    >
    > * Increase Stamina Gain by 3/5%
    >
    > * Increase Recharge Speed by 3/5%
    >
    >
    >
    > Tier 3 Boons - Choose one
    > * Role Reversal - Gain 5% increased damage as a Tank or Healer role. Gain 5% reduced incoming damage as a DPS role.
    >
    > * Deep Wound - Critically striking an opponent reduces their incoming healing by 15% for 5 seconds.
    >
    > * Adrenaline Rush - Deflecting an incoming attack grants you 15% additional movement speed for 5 seconds.

    Might want to confirm or deny the use of companions.....

    There's also campfire campers who don't help a team.

    I get you want to start a discussion but without addressing the elephant(s) in the room everything else is second fiddle. Theres a lot wrong with pvp but boons are amongst the last thing needed.

    Advice: with borderlands 3 coming out you need to get this right. PvP people spend a LOT. I know quite a few, myself included leaving once B3 is out. Ps4 pvp que waits were always less than 10mins until mod 16. If you guys don't get it right then dom will be as dead as guantly and seige.
  • kablanka1kablanka1 Posts: 13Member Arc User
    any change to the current pvp boons will be a improvement.
  • kiraskytowerkiraskytower Posts: 434Member Arc User
    So what happens to those of us who have current PvP boons and PvP campaign progress? Do we keep the tasks we have completed and the boons we currently have or is there some equivalency to the new system or does everyone have to start over?
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  • trgluestickztrgluestickz Posts: 842Member Arc User
    edited July 2019
    @noworries#8859

    I like most of these boons.

    I do see one boon on that list that I take some issue with as things currently stand. I am talking about the role reversal boon.
    We have been having issues lately with some classes being too good at roles they are not. Some examples are paladin doing a lot of dps while being immortal at the same time, tank barbarians not having much incentive to choose the dps role in PVP when they dps just fine as a tank role, wizards being unusually tanky compared to other dps roles, ect.

    I will mention that my issue with the role reversal boon is purely coming at things from a how things are right now point of view. Its possible the healing nerf and other PVP adjustments will make my role concerns less of an issue.
    I do like for there to be some role crossover in PVP to give us more freedom of choice so its possible this boon will grow on me in the long run.

    My other concern is the HP boon. This HP boon by itself is fine but please remember to remove companion active bonuses in PVP, there is currently too much HP available in PVP and removing the companions would help a lot with this.
    --
    PVP Rogue,
    --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    Main Character: MarigoldsTheShredder (Rogue Assassin)
    Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
    Discord Name: Marigolds🔪Gluestickz#2563
    Full Gaming Name: Gluestickz The Gap Closer
    Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
    Alliances: Imperium & Vermilion
    Platform: PC
  • wilbur626wilbur626 Posts: 247Member Arc User
    edited July 2019
    This is great news! Once again the Vikings of. Norway will crush everyone in the PVP battlefield 🎉

    I hope the SH PvP boons get the same treatment and that the reworked campaign/PvP rewards will make it worth doing for both old and new players 👍👍👍
  • superstevenshusuperstevenshu Posts: 169Member Arc User
    good job!
  • lemollenlemollen Posts: 102Member Arc User
    Nope the companion bonus are still active on preview.
  • treentbail21#9864 treentbail21 Posts: 39Member Arc User
    > @barbie#2808 said:
    > @noworries#8859
    >
    > I like most of these boons.
    >
    > I do see one boon on that list that I take some issue with as things currently stand. I am talking about the role reversal boon.
    > We have been having issues lately with some classes being too good at roles they are not. Some examples are paladin doing a lot of dps while being immortal at the same time, tank barbarians not having much incentive to choose the dps role in PVP when they dps just fine as a tank role, wizards being unusually tanky compared to other dps roles, ect.
    >
    > I will mention that my issue with the role reversal boon is purely coming at things from a how things are right now point of view. Its possible the healing nerf and other PVP adjustments will make my role concerns less of an issue.
    > I do like for there to be some role crossover in PVP to give us more freedom of choice so its possible this boon will grow on me in the long run.
    >
    > My other concern is the HP boon. This HP boon by itself is fine but please remember to remove companion active bonuses in PVP, there is currently too much HP available in PVP.
    >
    > In the last patch on preview the HP provided from Companions wasn't working in PVP. So i think the Active companions do not work.
    >
    > Also there are plenty of incentives to play as a DPS, the DPS on TANK is rather slow compared to DPS path, indeed to get the best out of the class is preferable to have 2 loadouts and pick up the fights carefully, but i can see advantages with DPS path aswell with TANK

    Unless your a barbarian as a blademaster who has like 5 steps of stamina then gets destroyed by everyone in like 5 hits. Thats why everyone that pvps as a barbarian is a tank.
  • slysnow#2290 slysnow Posts: 110Member Arc User
    > @lemollen said:
    > Nope the companion bonus are still active on preview.

    Which is why i mentioned this needs to be confirmed to be a thing or not. If companions are again disabled these boons matter more. If theyre still active you can still counter some of the new boons.

    Some companions give MORE stats than these proposed boons.

    Example green slime grants 8k defense. This proposed boon gives 6k defense. Companions can counter.

    If they care about balance that is
  • trgluestickztrgluestickz Posts: 842Member Arc User
    edited July 2019

    @noworries#8859

    I like most of these boons.

    I do see one boon on that list that I take some issue with as things currently stand. I am talking about the role reversal boon.
    We have been having issues lately with some classes being too good at roles they are not. Some examples are paladin doing a lot of dps while being immortal at the same time, tank barbarians not having much incentive to choose the dps role in PVP when they dps just fine as a tank role, wizards being unusually tanky compared to other dps roles, ect.

    I will mention that my issue with the role reversal boon is purely coming at things from a how things are right now point of view. Its possible the healing nerf and other PVP adjustments will make my role concerns less of an issue.
    I do like for there to be some role crossover in PVP to give us more freedom of choice so its possible this boon will grow on me in the long run.

    My other concern is the HP boon. This HP boon by itself is fine but please remember to remove companion active bonuses in PVP, there is currently too much HP available in PVP.

    In the last patch on preview the HP provided from Companions wasn't working in PVP. So i think the Active companions do not work.

    Also there are plenty of incentives to play as a DPS, the DPS on TANK is rather slow compared to DPS path, indeed to get the best out of the class is preferable to have 2 loadouts and pick up the fights carefully, but i can see advantages with DPS path aswell with TANK path.
    I just tested comps in PVP again on 7/24/19 (today). My HP and stat companions still work in PVP on preview. Tested with deepcrow, black dragon ioun stone, moonshae druid, energon, kenku archer, and scarecrow.

    It does look like some companions have been disabled in PVP though, my incoming healing from pets didn't appear on my sheet in PVP but does appear in PVE. My death slaad also appears to be disabled in PVP.
    Post edited by trgluestickz on
    --
    PVP Rogue,
    --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    Main Character: MarigoldsTheShredder (Rogue Assassin)
    Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
    Discord Name: Marigolds🔪Gluestickz#2563
    Full Gaming Name: Gluestickz The Gap Closer
    Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
    Alliances: Imperium & Vermilion
    Platform: PC
  • demonmongerdemonmonger Posts: 3,350Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    > @trgluestickz said:
    > @noworries#8859
    >
    > I like most of these boons.
    >
    > I do see one boon on that list that I take some issue with as things currently stand. I am talking about the role reversal boon.
    > We have been having issues lately with some classes being too good at roles they are not. Some examples are paladin doing a lot of dps while being immortal at the same time, tank barbarians not having much incentive to choose the dps role in PVP when they dps just fine as a tank role, wizards being unusually tanky compared to other dps roles, ect.
    >
    > I will mention that my issue with the role reversal boon is purely coming at things from a how things are right now point of view. Its possible the healing nerf and other PVP adjustments will make my role concerns less of an issue.
    > I do like for there to be some role crossover in PVP to give us more freedom of choice so its possible this boon will grow on me in the long run.
    >
    > My other concern is the HP boon. This HP boon by itself is fine but please remember to remove companion active bonuses in PVP, there is currently too much HP available in PVP.
    >
    > In the last patch on preview the HP provided from Companions wasn't working in PVP. So i think the Active companions do not work.
    >
    > Also there are plenty of incentives to play as a DPS, the DPS on TANK is rather slow compared to DPS path, indeed to get the best out of the class is preferable to have 2 loadouts and pick up the fights carefully, but i can see advantages with DPS path aswell with TANK path.
    >
    > I just tested comps in PVP again on 7/24/19 (today). My HP and stat companions still work in PVP on preview. Tested with deepcrow, black dragon ioun stone, moonshae druid, energon, kenku archer, and scarecrow.
    >
    > It does look like some companions have been disabled in PVP though, my incoming healing from pets didn't appear on my sheet in PVP but does appear in PVE. My death slaad also appears to be disabled in PVP.

    Open world pvp or domination?

    Some companions never worked in domination but did work in open world.
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  • demonmongerdemonmonger Posts: 3,350Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    I like my current passive mobility boon in pvp.

    Some of the new boons are more powerful than previous, I still hate losing my mobility yet again.

    That being said, I was looking forward to pvp in mod17 until I saw this thread.
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  • lemollenlemollen Posts: 102Member Arc User
    Those that add to your stats still work like what marigolds said. I’m starting to think that the devs intended this. If they have been truly testing pvp in dom like they said, they wouldn’t have missed this, would they?
  • kalina311kalina311 Posts: 1,678Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited July 2019
    @noworries#8859

    Kalina Here a mod 9 Pvp playtester .. and veteran pvp forum Pvp poster I offer this .

    No companions in pvp at all was asked for / Begged in pvp strongholds since mod 9 playtest ....
    companion cause too much of an unfair gap between the haves and have nots and make balancing even harder ..
    and add more buggy interactions that were not accounted for/ tested

    (on a side note / pvp / pve note very powerfully upgraded favored companions (giving thousands of stats ) are not properly factored into item level either they all say item level 100 no matter what their upgraded level.. deceiving players / possible matchmaking into thinking they are close in power level to someone else when in fact they are not )

    in the icewinddale days ,.the devs thought it would be fun to arrange matches were companions fought (at the end of the day ) against each other in pvp like pokemon instead of players..that is a paraphrased quote but close enough ,.,

    they also ironically thought all these companions and bonuses and interactions would not effect lag on such large maps ....(wrong )

    briefly companions were also running wild in 5 v 5 pvp in past mods (a bug ) and it took 2 months for the devs to disable them while pvp bled and shed more players due to unfairness perceived and real imbalance

    Please disable companions in pvp ASAP. and start fresh with at least one item scaled Queue just like you do dungeons
    and a few enticing rewards to get people wanting more and hooked

    good pvp rewards and rare drops too . and a fair item balanced queue need to be implemented at the same time .not wait back and see approach ,
    why cant there be a pvp token / reward lockbox of sorts ( that drops items useful for pvp and pve so you get some crossovers playing )/ other enticing things to exchange for glory aside from gear

    the devs also said they were holding back other pvp game modes as well base don participation of this test
    but there will not be good participation unless there are good rewards just like most never winter events there are always a few top prizes etc

    where are the prizes for pvp ? what were/ is the incentive to play if people dont get balaced out and cant win and get steam rolled smashed and then only high item level can people farm rewards ?..and because of that you can only give out hampster rewards ....no no no

    you need to have an item level balanced no frills pvp Q i dont care in what form .and proper rewards that are obtainable for various players if they grind long enough ..even if the get a fraction of the amount for participating / loseing at least they will feel they are making progress and not a feeling of overwhelming hopelessness against impossible odds and continue the negative Pr in the general chat

    that is what people think of never winter pvp now impossible odds ..will get smashed/ lose no matter what
    no point and no rewards ..ever since you removed the pvp requirement for getting the stronghold power boon..
    semi casual have no reason to go there to help their guild or help themselves ..

    Post edited by kalina311 on
  • trgluestickztrgluestickz Posts: 842Member Arc User
    edited July 2019




    Open world pvp or domination?



    Some companions never worked in domination but did work in open world.

    Domination.
    --
    PVP Rogue,
    --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    Main Character: MarigoldsTheShredder (Rogue Assassin)
    Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
    Discord Name: Marigolds🔪Gluestickz#2563
    Full Gaming Name: Gluestickz The Gap Closer
    Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
    Alliances: Imperium & Vermilion
    Platform: PC
  • bspallybspally Posts: 27Member Arc User
    lemollen said:

    Please disable companions in pvp ASAP. They bring too much imbalance to pvp, open world or dom. On pc, open world and stronghold pvp is almost non existent due to this very reason. If u allow comp bonuses in dom, doesn’t matter if u add incentives, new map, pvp will still be dead.

    +

    Please disable companions bonuses in pvp. Don't be so stupid to waste your work to revive pvp.

    Make Neverwinter's players willing to buy Zen great again!
  • quickfoot#7851 quickfoot Posts: 390Member Arc User
    edited July 2019

    if you're going to disable stat bonuses from companions in pvp, why stop there? why not disable insignia stat bonus, the stats you get from artifacts, and enchants, they all bring imbalance when one person has higher ranks than the other.
    /end sarcasm

    The stats you get from pet bonuses in pvp help to further min/max your builds. What we need is separate tiers (queues) of pvp, heroic, epic, legendary, mythic (unscaled) or whatever and use the new scaling system to enforce a semblance of a balanced match gear-wise.

    Anyways, as for what this thread is actually about. The boons seem fine, but I really don't like the requirement for 50 or whatever triple (and possibly double) kills in pvp to get the boons, that's been a major wall for me completing the pvp campaign, especially now that it can be pretty much a staring match and it takes 2+ players usually to kill another.

  • slysnow#2290 slysnow Posts: 110Member Arc User
    > @quickfoot#7851 said:
    > if you're going to disable stat bonuses from companions in pvp, why stop there? why not disable insignia stat bonus, the stats you get from artifacts, and enchants, they all bring imbalance when one person has higher ranks than the other.
    > /end sarcasm
    >
    > The stats you get from pet bonuses in pvp help to further min/max your builds. What we need is separate tiers (queues) of pvp, heroic, epic, legendary, mythic (unscaled) or whatever and use the new scaling system to enforce a semblance of a balanced match gear-wise.
    >
    > Anyways, as for what this thread is actually about. The boons seem fine, but I really don't like the requirement for 50 or whatever triple (and possibly double) kills in pvp to get the boons, that's been a major wall for me completing the pvp campaign, especially now that it can be pretty much a staring match and it takes 2+ players usually to kill another.

    You're literally the only one wanting to keep companions active. Doesnt matter if those stats help min/max it simply makes pvp favor those who spend a ton or those whove been around for years. Even amongst those people only like 1/3 will know what to do pvp wise.

    There are not enough people to warrant more queues as it is.
  • quickfoot#7851 quickfoot Posts: 390Member Arc User
    edited July 2019

    > @quickfoot#7851 said:

    > if you're going to disable stat bonuses from companions in pvp, why stop there? why not disable insignia stat bonus, the stats you get from artifacts, and enchants, they all bring imbalance when one person has higher ranks than the other.

    > /end sarcasm

    >

    > The stats you get from pet bonuses in pvp help to further min/max your builds. What we need is separate tiers (queues) of pvp, heroic, epic, legendary, mythic (unscaled) or whatever and use the new scaling system to enforce a semblance of a balanced match gear-wise.

    >

    > Anyways, as for what this thread is actually about. The boons seem fine, but I really don't like the requirement for 50 or whatever triple (and possibly double) kills in pvp to get the boons, that's been a major wall for me completing the pvp campaign, especially now that it can be pretty much a staring match and it takes 2+ players usually to kill another.



    You're literally the only one wanting to keep companions active. Doesnt matter if those stats help min/max it simply makes pvp favor those who spend a ton or those whove been around for years. Even amongst those people only like 1/3 will know what to do pvp wise.



    There are not enough people to warrant more queues as it is.

    If there was different tiers, like in every other fighting sport such as boxing and MMA, more people would be playing PVP in their respective tier. Atm, and it will continue to be regardless if you think it's companion bonuses, or enchants, or artifacts, etc, etc..., it's basically a roll of the dice if your team gets a lowbie, that's what determines the match. Even without companion bonuses there will still be a discrepancy in power levels due to enchants, gear, artifacts, insignias, etc. And guess what, it'lll still be rng on which team gets the lowbie that determines the outcome of the match.

    It's simple really, why will there be low % of the population running ToMM next mod? Because there isn't a normal version. Why is there such a low percent of people playing pvp atm? Because only >1% of the population can compete. Literally look at the first 2 pages of the leaderboard, and that's about half of the active pvper's atm which can compete.

    Create different tiers (weight classes in boxing and MMA) and impose the new scaling implementation, maybe with a few tweeks, then a leg comp bonus won't be any better than an uncommon one in the lowest tier, no scaling in highest tier.

    And don't think people are stupid, that's a HAMSTER excuse saying people don't know what to put, if they don't at first, they soon will after a few matches. One think we greatly lack atm, is customization, which is what these boons are for and companion bonuses also help to accomplish.

    Reducing the amount of customization possible in builds, is the last thing they need to do right now.

    "A professional boxer usually weighs more between fights than at the time of a fight. Part of the process of training for a bout is "getting down to fighting weight". The weigh-in takes place the day before the fight. Boxers typically stand on the scales barefoot and without gloves. The weigh-in is often a photo opportunity and boxers or their entourage may trash talk each other. This element is such a valued part of the build-up that even heavyweight boxers go through the ritual of being weighed despite the fact there is no limit to be measured against." [1] In PvP, trash talk is part of the game, it's not part of the "toxicity" some whiners typically complain about.



    The BIGGEST reason they should NOT remove stat based companion bonuses from PVP is due to the increased number of different stats and counter stats, and the already limited stat pool available to players since we don't have bonding or augment buffs from pets in pvp instances. Even now, with legendary companion bonuses, it is very difficult to reach any of the % caps for counter stats such as Crit %, Damage Ignored %, Resistance Ignored %, Defelect %, Accuracy %, etc... As things currently are, in order to reach say 50% crit chance, you have to sacrifice a lot of other important stats, and if you have a crit based build (where crits trigger other effects, such as the Apocalypse set, NOTE: Debuffs are extreamly valuable in PVP due to the 60% less effective armor pen) it's often better to settle with an average of 30% crit so you can have some defense, or deflect as well. The same thing applies to defense and deflect, it's extremely hard to reach 50% damage ignored % or deflect chance % even with the maximum stat pool we currently have w/ companion bonuses.

    If you remove companion bonuses from the stat pool, players will never be able to max anything without minimizing everything else. And if you reduce the stat pool even further, it will be impossible to utilize X based builds whether that's crit, deflect, power/arm pen, etc...

    If you don't understand what I am trying to say here, then you have no clue how the new mechanics even work.


    [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weight_class_(boxing)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixed_martial_arts_weight_classes
    Post edited by quickfoot#7851 on

  • slysnow#2290 slysnow Posts: 110Member Arc User
    > @quickfoot#7851 said:
    > > @quickfoot#7851 said:
    >
    > > if you're going to disable stat bonuses from companions in pvp, why stop there? why not disable insignia stat bonus, the stats you get from artifacts, and enchants, they all bring imbalance when one person has higher ranks than the other.
    >
    > > /end sarcasm
    >
    > >
    >
    > > The stats you get from pet bonuses in pvp help to further min/max your builds. What we need is separate tiers (queues) of pvp, heroic, epic, legendary, mythic (unscaled) or whatever and use the new scaling system to enforce a semblance of a balanced match gear-wise.
    >
    > >
    >
    > > Anyways, as for what this thread is actually about. The boons seem fine, but I really don't like the requirement for 50 or whatever triple (and possibly double) kills in pvp to get the boons, that's been a major wall for me completing the pvp campaign, especially now that it can be pretty much a staring match and it takes 2+ players usually to kill another.
    >
    >
    >
    > You're literally the only one wanting to keep companions active. Doesnt matter if those stats help min/max it simply makes pvp favor those who spend a ton or those whove been around for years. Even amongst those people only like 1/3 will know what to do pvp wise.
    >
    >
    >
    > There are not enough people to warrant more queues as it is.
    >
    > If there was different tiers, like in every other fighting sport such as boxing and MMA, more people would be playing PVP in their respective tier. Atm, and it will continue to be regardless if you think it's companion bonuses, or enchants, or artifacts, etc, etc..., it's basically a roll of the dice if your team gets a lowbie, that's what determines the match. Even without companion bonuses there will still be a discrepancy in power levels due to enchants, gear, artifacts, insignias, etc. And guess what, it'lll still be rng on which team gets the lowbie that determines the outcome of the match.
    >
    > It's simple really, why will there be low % of the population running ToMM next mod? Because there isn't a normal version. Why is there such a low percent of people playing pvp atm? Because only >1% of the population can compete. Literally look at the first 2 pages of the leaderboard, and that's about half of the active pvper's atm which can compete.
    >
    > Create different tiers (weight classes in boxing and MMA) and impose the new scaling implementation, maybe with a few tweeks, then a leg comp bonus won't be any better than an uncommon one in the lowest tier, no scaling in highest tier.
    >
    > And don't think people are stupid, that's a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> excuse saying people don't know what to put, if they don't at first, they soon will after a few matches. One think we greatly lack atm, is customization, which is what these boons are for and companion bonuses also help to accomplish.
    >
    > Reducing the amount of customization possible in builds, is the last thing they need to do right now.
    >
    > "A professional boxer usually weighs more between fights than at the time of a fight. Part of the process of training for a bout is "getting down to fighting weight". The weigh-in takes place the day before the fight. Boxers typically stand on the scales barefoot and without gloves. The weigh-in is often a photo opportunity and boxers or their entourage may trash talk each other. This element is such a valued part of the build-up that even heavyweight boxers go through the ritual of being weighed despite the fact there is no limit to be measured against." [1] In PvP, trash talk is part of the game, it's not part of the "toxicity" some whiners typically complain about.
    >
    >
    >
    > The BIGGEST reason they should NOT remove stat based companion bonuses from PVP is due to the increased number of different stats and counter stats, and the already limited stat pool available to players since we don't have bonding or augment buffs from pets in pvp instances. Even now, with legendary companion bonuses, it is very difficult to reach any of the % caps for counter stats such as Crit %, Damage Ignored %, Resistance Ignored %, Defelect %, Accuracy %, etc... As things currently are, in order to reach say 50% crit chance, you have to sacrifice a lot of other important stats, and if you have a crit based build (where crits trigger other effects, such as the Apocalypse set, NOTE: Debuffs are extreamly valuable in PVP due to the 60% less effective armor pen) it's often better to settle with an average of 30% crit so you can have some defense, or deflect as well. The same thing applies to defense and deflect, it's extremely hard to reach 50% damage ignored % or deflect chance % even with the maximum stat pool we currently have w/ companion bonuses.
    >
    > If you remove companion bonuses from the stat pool, players will never be able to max anything without minimizing everything else. And if you reduce the stat pool even further, it will be impossible to utilize X based builds whether that's crit, deflect, power/arm pen, etc...
    >
    > If you don't understand what I am trying to say here, then you have no clue how the new mechanics even work.
    >
    >
    > [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weight_class_(boxing)
    > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixed_martial_arts_weight_classes

    Pretty sure if you played on ps4 youd realize the foolishness of your "you have no clue" statement. Nonetheless, i digress.

    You can max counter stats without companions and without having to reach 68k etc. I have already done so in 1v1 tests with a buddy. Im far from bis as well. Maxing stats =/= reach 68k number as far as pvp goes. For example my cw with companions on has died once in 17 matches of solo que. None of my stats reach the max value. My one death came from a 1v5 on node 1 for two mins.

    Companions are not needed. Pretty obvious about the skill gap from new players compared to others. I remember people saying if solo que was permanent more ppl would play. How's that worked out? 30-60min que times. So much for that. If you want more ppl in pvp rewards need worthwhile.

    Considering for like the 5th straight mod other cws cannot touch mine i think id know if people are able to "figure" it out. Most cannot figure out pvp and those who do rarely share builds. Most want someone else to figure it out then share it. Most want it online so they can put their own spin on a already tested build.
  • quickfoot#7851 quickfoot Posts: 390Member Arc User
    edited July 2019


    You can max counter stats without companions and without having to reach 68k etc. I have already done so in 1v1 tests with a buddy. Im far from bis as well. Maxing stats =/= reach 68k number as far as pvp goes.

    The only caps in PVP are the % caps, everything else w/ a counter stat is based on your opponent's counter stat. If you have 68k crit, and I have 40k crit avoid, your crit chance is only 33%. Now take into consideration that arm pen is handicapped by 60%, so in order to reach 50% RI assuming an opponent w/ 50k defense (not hard to do), you need 125k arm pen. If you can reach that arm pen w/o pets and not get one rotated by pugs, then you are truly a ninja. If you're reaching 50% crit or w/ less than 68k crit, it's because your opponent isn't stacking any crit avoid.

    If you can't understand that limiting the stat pool any further is a bad idea, idk what to tell you, but I'm pretty sure all this complaining about companion stat bonuses mostly stems from jealousy, not any actual facts or mathematics. At an extreme, if you limit the stat pool to 40k stats and put all of that into crit, the most crit % you can have is 45% assuming 0 crit avoid your opponent. The problem though, will be that you will get facerolled by everyone because you have no defense or deflect. The more you limit that stat pool, the more you reduce the viability of certain builds. And the more you remove sources of stats that don't have the "Combined Rating" like insignias and companion bonuses, the more you wash out any benefit of counter stats, builds will be more "flat", meaning it will be harder to push any one of those %'s to it's cap!

    A crit based build w/ less than 10% crit chance is not viable. Keep in mind, you need 45k more crit than your opponent has crit avoid. Removing companions from the stat pool effectively removes 36k to 40k stats from the stat pool. All this is going to do is further reduce the viability of certain builds (not just crit based builds). With the size of the stat pool as it is, on average the most crit % you're going to get w/o sacrificing everything else is about 30%-40%, and even then you are sacrificing quite a bit because again, you have get past that crit avoid gap.

    And yeah, this mod all you gotta do to be untouchable is stack some deflect, use shadowclad, and survivor's blessing, or use paladin sigil, or wheel of elements for water, and the other broken sources of healing. WOW, such a secret build bro. < -- Actually a problem in pvp right now.

    Post edited by quickfoot#7851 on

  • slysnow#2290 slysnow Posts: 110Member Arc User
    > @quickfoot#7851 said:
    > You can max counter stats without companions and without having to reach 68k etc. I have already done so in 1v1 tests with a buddy. Im far from bis as well. Maxing stats =/= reach 68k number as far as pvp goes.
    >
    > LOL 68k IS NOT THE CAP IN PVP!!!
    >
    > In fact, the only caps in PVP are the % caps, everything else w/ a counter stat is based on your opponent's counter stat. If you have 68k crit, and I have 40k crit avoid, your crit chance is only 33%. Now take into consideration that arm pen is handicapped by 60%, so in order to reach 50% RI assuming an opponent w/ 50k defense (not hard to do), you need 125k arm pen. If you can reach that arm pen w/o pets and not get one rotated by pugs, then you are truly a ninja.
    >
    > And yeah, this mod all you gotta do to be untouchable is stack deflect, use shadowclad, and survivor's blessing, or use paladin sigil, or wheel of elements for water, and the other broken sources of healing. WOW, such a secret build bro.

    68k cap was followed by etc. It was relative. My deflect is 15k. I dont need pally sigil. Never said i had a secret build. Thats your assumption. I said people do not share builds that works.

    I also mentioned since mod 11 on ps4 no cw besides the guy i test with has been able to defeat me 1v1. Pretty sure dating back to mod 11 all these current things being abused did not exist or were useless back then (i.e pve gear, pally sigil, holy avenger etc <-- again etc is there. Meaning it's not definitive, nor did i list everything, i digress).

    Lastly thanks for proving my point. You do not need to max out a stat in pvp. You simply need to reach a treshold that will counter the offensive stats of your opponent. That does not require being bis.

    Removing companions helps to achieve the original goal of this thread, making it so people cannot counter everything. A companion grants you the EXACT same bonus as a guild boon. Again next to no one wants companions to stay in pvp.
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