It will take 50years for cryptic to fix this game.
3
adinosiiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,294Arc User
edited May 2019
As I keep saying, do your 3xMEs every day and then call it a day. If any content frustrates you, just ignore it. This is a game, not a job - it is supposed to be fun.
Use the time you save on something else.....in the past few days I have spent time I normally would have spent on playing in the garden - high-pressure washing the patio, oiling all the woodwork and installing lights everywhere. My wife appreciates the sorry state the game is in at the moment as it gives me a lot of extra time to do things I have been neglecting.
> @pariswinters#7118 said: > Apparently there was another stream yesterday. Any summaries available? > > It's not angry customers that are the most scary. It's the apathy that should be taken very seriously. > > foss: seems theres been a lot of problems with mod 16.....you guys asked for this, deal with it > > foss: why scaling? to balance pvp > > foss: we understand you guys are upset, free gift on Thursday patch for pc > > foss:some things aren't working, we understand this, and we will look into it in future patches > > foss:scaling??? we'll move some sliders again in a future patch > > did i miss anything?
nope, same old carrot and stick coversation
99 lines of code on the wall, 99 lines of code, add one line, compile it again....... 113 lines on code on the wall 113 lines of code on the wall, 113 lines of code, rewrite one line, compile it again....... Wait For It
PvP is BARELY a thing in Neverwinter. This game RELIES on PvE.
Repeat this Mr Foss:
The Neverwinter community RELIES on the PvE experience.
What PVE experience? Repeated dailies and weeklies? Running the same old dungeon again? Master Expeditions? What is all that work for if not PVP? As a wise streamer recently said "PvP is end-game".
Where they HAMSTER up was allowing PVP to go down the drain. Maybe if they actually created PvE content that was immersive and entertaining, but be honest, what we have isn't, it's just a grindfest (i.e. a 2nd job).
Let PvP rot away? PvP was never very good in NW, just like it was never any good in STO or CO. Cryptic has always done a poor job of implementing PvP... why? Because their games are PvE focused. If you think PvP is the endgame, then frankly you've misinterpreted Neverwinter pretty much completely. You're not wrong that PvP is typically where the money is, but you're definitely wrong if you think PvP was, is, or will ever be, the primary focus of Neverwinter.
PvP was, is, or will ever be, the primary focus of Neverwinter.
It may not have been the primary focus, but it was still a lot more fun than the PVE content. "Fishing, Dinos, and Bats" Either people never liked it, or it was just thematic flavor that isn't viewed much anymore because, new mod, which is why they come up with gimmicks like "Challenge/Legacy Campaigns" and Random Queues. Hence, a waste of resources. The same amount of effort put into PVP with minimal upkeep would have resulted in content that lasts through the mods.
You're not wrong that PvP is typically where the money is
Thank you for making my point for me.
Most people play online games to compete against other players. If they wanted a good story and tactical dungeon runs, they'd get much more value from a single player game. What I see from PVE players, is they typically treat NWO as a fancy IRC server, especially once they are done with whatever new mod just dropped.
The problem with PvP is that they need to make it equal footing ONLY or a mode that is setup like that. Who wants to be in content that is dominated by either wallet warriors or RNG kings. If they had a mode where you could only wear 1 set of gear, no enchants, no mount stuff, no companions and relied on skill vs skill you would instantly see PvP take off again in the game. Since they don't do this your stuck with players who are gods compared to new players. This is like being a punching bag.
Guild Leader: Under the Influence Yule (Barb): 72k : Siren (TR): 78k : Torun (DC): 73k : Siren OP (OP): 76k : Siren SW (SW): 78k : Modern (F): 80k : Cherry1 (CW) : 68k Siren HR (HR): 78k
The other fix they need to do is have stats for each class change in the fight as the gear's stats used lower and raise based on the KDA of the different classes. This means that if TR's are too powerful eventually the stats will slightly lower for the next time a player queues into the content lowering what they can do. Eventually the stats will balance out and the KDA of the TR class would start to go negative and balance out. This would make the balance of all classes change every time you played PvP and so you would start to see a more balanced game in PvP. Eventually, all PvP players would have all classes and not just 1 class in PvP since all of the classes would be make via in it. If the cleric doesn't do well eventually the stats will be increased on the cleric class to the point where they would do well in PvP. That would probably be the best case of what to do in the game to balance and wouldn't require more programming to the game each mod release.
Guild Leader: Under the Influence Yule (Barb): 72k : Siren (TR): 78k : Torun (DC): 73k : Siren OP (OP): 76k : Siren SW (SW): 78k : Modern (F): 80k : Cherry1 (CW) : 68k Siren HR (HR): 78k
Let PvP rot away? PvP was never very good in NW, just like it was never any good in STO or CO. Cryptic has always done a poor job of implementing PvP... why? Because their games are PvE focused. If you think PvP is the endgame, then frankly you've misinterpreted Neverwinter pretty much completely. ... you're definitely wrong if you think PvP was, is, or will ever be, the primary focus of Neverwinter.
Facts.
I did polling on the forums here in alpha and beta (the old, original NW forum technically). At it's most popular (2013), Neverwinter's PvP catered to no more then 10% of the playerbase. I'd venture to guess that PvP may take up less then 3% of the playerbase nowadays.
Most people I speak to are here for D&D content & lore, partying and raiding TOGETHER. Joining a good guild and looking for reasons to PLAY. Not saying everyone is happy with the PvE, that would be silly, but I find that many are here for just that.
Most people I speak to are here for D&D content & lore, partying and raiding TOGETHER. Joining a good guild and looking for reasons to PLAY. Not saying everyone is happy with the PvE, that would be silly, but I find that many are here for just that.
And people are likely to ask people they know and that enjoy the game in a similar way. Most people I play with know nothing about D&D, which is imo because I know nothing about D&D, either.
I second that PVP is a minority. But either you try to make PVP work, or you don't. Inbetweens are really not satisfying.
E: Not that I think anything about PVP should touch my PVE experience. Why should it, really. There is literally no reason I can think of why anything in a PVE focused MMO should be influenced by PVP (aside from PVP zones). If I would get into it, I would do it in PVP zones in PVP gear with PVP boons and whatnot. Zones that are not influenced by PVE, either. That's not a way to kickstart PVP, it's a way to drive PVP/PVE players even further apart.
Not that I think anything about PVP should touch my PVE experience. Why should it, really. There is literally no reason I can think of why anything in a PVE focused MMO should be influenced by PVP (aside from PVP zones).
Exactly. And this is what Cryptic devs got wrong from long before game launch. Ever since the development days of Gauntlgrym. Within a few weeks after release, the game lost a tremendous amount of players. Entire 200+ member guilds, gone. From that point on, Cryptic devs should have realized. The Neverwinter audience wanted a PvE game. Period. With perhaps some PvP zones.
There were a lot of old school and newer 4.0 tabletop and UGC D&D players and excitement that were commingled with those that (like yourself) didnt know much about D&D. Cryptic lost alot, but not all of the D&D folk with some really bad decision making in the first 1-2 years. I speak to many many types of players since I've been around so long and from different guilds too with totally different goals/playstyles. It's been clear to me since 2012, the Neverwinter player base is majority PvE.
Anyhow that was an argument that we alpha testers lost back in 2012/13. So any game balancing PvE changes made now for "a better pvp experience" is just a really, really tone deaf bad idea.
Summary: PvE balance should never be messed with to satisfy a pvp audience. Not in this game. They should be totally SEPARATE entities and the game should be continuously developed with that in mind.
silverkeltMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,235Arc User
edited June 2019
simply put, there shouldnt ever be an argument between pvp and pve players, if there is , its poor design, every other mmo game Ive played(well at least the good ones), simply put the two groups separate and never altered either experience for the other.
Frankly the discussion boards on both sides, literally never had any overlapping.. because the played vastly different experiences, what worked for one group, simply doesnt worth for another.
I find it extremely funny that they would even comment on pvp as one of the reason these changes happened though, pvp in this game has been dismal for ages and had such a small group of players, its laughable that could even remotely be a reason.
PVP in this game, really hasnt been fun since pre mod 6.. and probably mod 2 and backwards were the best part of pvp in this game.
but players shouldnt have to argue with each other at all.. its the games companies fault if they cant figure out how to recode powers/feats ect for two different areas of the game..
To me the main reason and one they dont like to state.. is they have a skeleton crew, who cant simply handle the game as it was.. with too many variation and permutations based on to many factors.
Take it as you want.. me personally the changes are so vastly different then I want from neverwinter, I simply chose to walk away. Others will stay, some might even find the game dismal and still stay, due to relationships formed.. but at some point you have to ask the question.. is this really fun anymore? If its not, whats the point, Im not going to spend a dime on something I simply dont baseline , find entertaining and fun anymore.
silverkelt is correct on other games that deal with pvp/pve, for example 1st guild wars, they have different set of skills, some you have to find elite skills from elite mobs with capture signets. it made some pvp balanced, neverwinter made mistake with "tiers skills", they first early grinded in Gauntletgrym early as possible to get maxed out tiered level skills, creating broken pvp environment when devs took out Gauntletgrym, and then newcommers are at disavanaged when they couldnt get and had to depend on stronghold buffs to level up.
0
micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
edited June 2019
Long ago, the official explanation for the lack of separation of PvP and PvE was that the difference in how skills and powers work will confuse the typical player little brain (paraphrasing obviously).
Or allow me to explain, apparently we, the player base, are too dumb to figure out that when you enter PvP some/all skills work differently.
Feel free to look up the old dev streams. "We want to streamline the experience and different skills will confuse players" or some such.
PVE Players: "We won, we beat the PVP'ers and made the game PVP Free!" PVP Players: "Fek this, *goes to play a different game" PVE Players: "OMG! The game is dying, where did all the players goooo *whines*"
Dev: "....this....that...the other.... PVP..." PVE Player: "OMG! They ruined the game all because of PVP!" Dev: "We're raising the level cap, this, that, the other, .... blah, blah, blah, fishing, dino's, bats, and undermountain!" PVE Player: "OMG! They ruined the game all because of PVP!" PVP Player: "Dumb HAMSTER, that's all PVE content."
PVE Players: "We won, we beat the PVP'ers and made the game PVP Free!" PVP Players: "Fek this, *goes to play a different game" PVE Players: "OMG! The game is dying, where did all the players goooo *whines*"
Dev: "....this....that...the other.... PVP..." PVE Player: "OMG! They ruined the game all because of PVP!" Dev: "We're raising the level cap, this, that, the other, .... blah, blah, blah, fishing, dino's, bats, and undermountain!" PVE Player: "OMG! They ruined the game all because of PVP!" PVP Player: "Dumb HAMSTER, that's all PVE content."
Long ago, the official explanation for the lack of separation of PvP and PvE was that the difference in how skills and powers work will confuse the typical player little brain (paraphrasing obviously).
Or allow me to explain, apparently we, the player base, are too dumb to figure out that when you enter PvP some/all skills work differently.
Feel free to look up the old dev streams. "We want to streamline the experience and different skills will confuse players" or some such.
"Discussed on Reddit forums .. thats why we cant have dual powers folks cause the largest reason given by the dev is that we would be confused and too Hampstered up to read how to use them and it is a lot of work .."
"PvP: When we go on the Summer Sahaa field all of our powers change to fit the setting, why can’t you do that with PvP? Why can’t all of our powers have different effects in the PvP arena than in the PvE areas? That way you don’t have to manipulate our PvE powers to fit both PvE and PvP criterias."
Answer from "THE DEV" cryptic system designer
"The Sahha powers set was built in a very specific way that wouldn’t exactly work for player powers in PvP. That said, we can technically do a couple of different things that would either change out your powers, or the effects they have, in PvP. There are a couple of reasons as to why we don’t make PvP specific effects or powers, or why we do it very rarely.
A large reason is that it can create confusion on what a power actually does. For an example, if Shadow Strike fills your stealth bar in PvE and you go into PvP most people would expect it to work the same. However, if Shadow Strike instead increases Stealth regen for 5 seconds, you’re going to have a moment of confusion as to why your stealth bar didn’t fill.
The main issue is that balancing two separate powersets requires a large amount of work, both to maintain and to set up. We would effectively have to create a new version of a power that was a PvP only power, or add PvP specific effects on normal powers that change the way they work. This also means that tooltips need to be updated, changes need to be made, and interactions between other powers need to be accounted for."
Comments
Use the time you save on something else.....in the past few days I have spent time I normally would have spent on playing in the garden - high-pressure washing the patio, oiling all the woodwork and installing lights everywhere. My wife appreciates the sorry state the game is in at the moment as it gives me a lot of extra time to do things I have been neglecting.
It's not angry customers that are the most scary. It's the apathy that should be taken very seriously.
> Apparently there was another stream yesterday. Any summaries available?
>
> It's not angry customers that are the most scary. It's the apathy that should be taken very seriously.
>
> foss: seems theres been a lot of problems with mod 16.....you guys asked for this, deal with it
>
> foss: why scaling? to balance pvp
>
> foss: we understand you guys are upset, free gift on Thursday patch for pc
>
> foss:some things aren't working, we understand this, and we will look into it in future patches
>
> foss:scaling??? we'll move some sliders again in a future patch
>
> did i miss anything?
nope, same old carrot and stick coversation
113 lines of code on the wall, 113 lines of code, rewrite one line, compile it again.......
Wait For It
Repeat this Mr Foss:
The Neverwinter community RELIES on the PvE experience.
TYRS PALADIUM - A Premier Neverwinter Online Guild
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Where they HAMSTER up was allowing PVP to go down the drain. Maybe if they actually created PvE content that was immersive and entertaining, but be honest, what we have isn't, it's just a grindfest (i.e. a 2nd job).
TYRS PALADIUM - A Premier Neverwinter Online Guild
No Drama. Camaraderie. TEAM Focus. That's the TYRS way. If that's your style, come join us!
Research our Guild here: Read our official Recruitment thread | Sign up here: Tyrs Guild Website! | NEVERWINTER GUILD LEADERS: Join the Fellowship!
Sekhmet@kvetchus_
Guilds: Greycloaks, Blackcloaks, Whitecloaks, Goldcloaks, Browncloaks, Spiritcloaks, Bluecloaks, Silvercloaks, Black Dawn
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That's a matter of opinion
PvP was, is, or will ever be, the primary focus of Neverwinter.
It may not have been the primary focus, but it was still a lot more fun than the PVE content. "Fishing, Dinos, and Bats" Either people never liked it, or it was just thematic flavor that isn't viewed much anymore because, new mod, which is why they come up with gimmicks like "Challenge/Legacy Campaigns" and Random Queues. Hence, a waste of resources. The same amount of effort put into PVP with minimal upkeep would have resulted in content that lasts through the mods.
You're not wrong that PvP is typically where the money is
Thank you for making my point for me.
Most people play online games to compete against other players. If they wanted a good story and tactical dungeon runs, they'd get much more value from a single player game. What I see from PVE players, is they typically treat NWO as a fancy IRC server, especially once they are done with whatever new mod just dropped.
Obsidian Oath - Warlock
A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
Yule (Barb): 72k : Siren (TR): 78k : Torun (DC): 73k : Siren OP (OP): 76k : Siren SW (SW): 78k : Modern (F): 80k : Cherry1 (CW) : 68k Siren HR (HR): 78k
Yule (Barb): 72k : Siren (TR): 78k : Torun (DC): 73k : Siren OP (OP): 76k : Siren SW (SW): 78k : Modern (F): 80k : Cherry1 (CW) : 68k Siren HR (HR): 78k
Umm, did Fortnite's playerbase let out before school did this summer???
TYRS PALADIUM - A Premier Neverwinter Online Guild
No Drama. Camaraderie. TEAM Focus. That's the TYRS way. If that's your style, come join us!
Research our Guild here: Read our official Recruitment thread | Sign up here: Tyrs Guild Website! | NEVERWINTER GUILD LEADERS: Join the Fellowship!
I did polling on the forums here in alpha and beta (the old, original NW forum technically). At it's most popular (2013), Neverwinter's PvP catered to no more then 10% of the playerbase. I'd venture to guess that PvP may take up less then 3% of the playerbase nowadays.
Most people I speak to are here for D&D content & lore, partying and raiding TOGETHER. Joining a good guild and looking for reasons to PLAY. Not saying everyone is happy with the PvE, that would be silly, but I find that many are here for just that.
TYRS PALADIUM - A Premier Neverwinter Online Guild
No Drama. Camaraderie. TEAM Focus. That's the TYRS way. If that's your style, come join us!
Research our Guild here: Read our official Recruitment thread | Sign up here: Tyrs Guild Website! | NEVERWINTER GUILD LEADERS: Join the Fellowship!
Most people I play with know nothing about D&D, which is imo because I know nothing about D&D, either.
I second that PVP is a minority. But either you try to make PVP work, or you don't. Inbetweens are really not satisfying.
E: Not that I think anything about PVP should touch my PVE experience. Why should it, really. There is literally no reason I can think of why anything in a PVE focused MMO should be influenced by PVP (aside from PVP zones). If I would get into it, I would do it in PVP zones in PVP gear with PVP boons and whatnot. Zones that are not influenced by PVE, either.
That's not a way to kickstart PVP, it's a way to drive PVP/PVE players even further apart.
There were a lot of old school and newer 4.0 tabletop and UGC D&D players and excitement that were commingled with those that (like yourself) didnt know much about D&D. Cryptic lost alot, but not all of the D&D folk with some really bad decision making in the first 1-2 years. I speak to many many types of players since I've been around so long and from different guilds too with totally different goals/playstyles. It's been clear to me since 2012, the Neverwinter player base is majority PvE.
Anyhow that was an argument that we alpha testers lost back in 2012/13. So any game balancing PvE changes made now for "a better pvp experience" is just a really, really tone deaf bad idea.
Summary: PvE balance should never be messed with to satisfy a pvp audience. Not in this game. They should be totally SEPARATE entities and the game should be continuously developed with that in mind.
TYRS PALADIUM - A Premier Neverwinter Online Guild
No Drama. Camaraderie. TEAM Focus. That's the TYRS way. If that's your style, come join us!
Research our Guild here: Read our official Recruitment thread | Sign up here: Tyrs Guild Website! | NEVERWINTER GUILD LEADERS: Join the Fellowship!
Frankly the discussion boards on both sides, literally never had any overlapping.. because the played vastly different experiences, what worked for one group, simply doesnt worth for another.
I find it extremely funny that they would even comment on pvp as one of the reason these changes happened though, pvp in this game has been dismal for ages and had such a small group of players, its laughable that could even remotely be a reason.
PVP in this game, really hasnt been fun since pre mod 6.. and probably mod 2 and backwards were the best part of pvp in this game.
but players shouldnt have to argue with each other at all.. its the games companies fault if they cant figure out how to recode powers/feats ect for two different areas of the game..
To me the main reason and one they dont like to state.. is they have a skeleton crew, who cant simply handle the game as it was.. with too many variation and permutations based on to many factors.
Take it as you want.. me personally the changes are so vastly different then I want from neverwinter, I simply chose to walk away. Others will stay, some might even find the game dismal and still stay, due to relationships formed.. but at some point you have to ask the question.. is this really fun anymore? If its not, whats the point, Im not going to spend a dime on something I simply dont baseline , find entertaining and fun anymore.
Or allow me to explain, apparently we, the player base, are too dumb to figure out that when you enter PvP some/all skills work differently.
Feel free to look up the old dev streams. "We want to streamline the experience and different skills will confuse players" or some such.
PVP Players: "Fek this, *goes to play a different game"
PVE Players: "OMG! The game is dying, where did all the players goooo *whines*"
Dev: "....this....that...the other.... PVP..."
PVE Player: "OMG! They ruined the game all because of PVP!"
Dev: "We're raising the level cap, this, that, the other, .... blah, blah, blah, fishing, dino's, bats, and undermountain!"
PVE Player: "OMG! They ruined the game all because of PVP!"
PVP Player: "Dumb HAMSTER, that's all PVE content."
TYRS PALADIUM - A Premier Neverwinter Online Guild
No Drama. Camaraderie. TEAM Focus. That's the TYRS way. If that's your style, come join us!
Research our Guild here: Read our official Recruitment thread | Sign up here: Tyrs Guild Website! | NEVERWINTER GUILD LEADERS: Join the Fellowship!
https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/1238443/the-devs-dont-think-players-are-smart-enough-to-understand-power-descriptions-if-it-has-pvp-pve-use
"Discussed on Reddit forums .. thats why we cant have dual powers folks cause the largest reason given by the dev is that we would be confused and too Hampstered up to read how to use them and it is a lot of work .."
reddit thread dev source
https://www.reddit.com/r/Neverwinter/comments/7yydgo/we_are_systems_designers_for_neverwinter_ask_us/
Question posed ...
"PvP: When we go on the Summer Sahaa field all of our powers change to fit the setting, why can’t you do that with PvP? Why can’t all of our powers have different effects in the PvP arena than in the PvE areas? That way you don’t have to manipulate our PvE powers to fit both PvE and PvP criterias."
Answer from "THE DEV" cryptic system designer
"The Sahha powers set was built in a very specific way that wouldn’t exactly work for player powers in PvP. That said, we can technically do a couple of different things that would either change out your powers, or the effects they have, in PvP. There are a couple of reasons as to why we don’t make PvP specific effects or powers, or why we do it very rarely.
A large reason is that it can create confusion on what a power actually does. For an example, if Shadow Strike fills your stealth bar in PvE and you go into PvP most people would expect it to work the same. However, if Shadow Strike instead increases Stealth regen for 5 seconds, you’re going to have a moment of confusion as to why your stealth bar didn’t fill.
The main issue is that balancing two separate powersets requires a large amount of work, both to maintain and to set up. We would effectively have to create a new version of a power that was a PvP only power, or add PvP specific effects on normal powers that change the way they work. This also means that tooltips need to be updated, changes need to be made, and interactions between other powers need to be accounted for."