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Mod 16 scale down system is broken and need fixing

arcanjo86arcanjo86 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,061 Arc User
edited April 2019 in General Discussion (PC)
if the player is level 80 21k il and queues for a level 70 12k il dungeon and have the right values to counter enemies stats the player should get those caps, if the stats are over the values needed on that dungeon player should get a hard cap on those values for that dungeon( specific to that dungeon) and the power stat should be set to a reasonable hard cap value to not overwhelm the dungeon run, we no longer have power buff/ powershare mechanics/powers in the game, and for new player on that dungeon if they have lower stat values they should keep them as they are and those players need to stop being lazy on upgrading their enchantments/runestones, stop "putting the carriage in front of the hosrses" meaning stop running content your char isnt "fit" to run, also its time that TONG/ CODG/ CR have a different level to enter to fit each challenge, lvl 70 queued content VT/ELOL/MC/MoH/DL, lvl 71 ECC/ETOS/EGWD/KR/ESoT, lvl 72 CN/NDEMO/EDEMO, lvl 73 FBI/MSP/IG lvl 75 TONG/CODG, lvl 77 CR. Killing the money spent to get r15 is killing progression, everyone doesnt need to spend money on the game to increase there stat ratings because its all decreased to nothing so no need to get anything because of the bad scale down system it also scale down the mount insignias values, doing barovia/tong with scale down to r 9 echantments while you have r15, players will either leave or start hoarding ad more than spending ad because theres no need to upgrade them at all with the new scalling system.
Post edited by arcanjo86 on
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Comments

  • krumple01krumple01 Member Posts: 755 Arc User
    I am still holding out that they will re balance or completely remove the back scaling. It's a mechanic that will make Veteran players only want to run the new mod 16 content and if they need to run anything else they will simply not do it. Some might however; but most likely in a party because its annoying to go back to older content and struggle with it. I tested this out personally and it actually gets worse in some spots because monsters no longer de-aggro. They will chase you until you either kill them or you die. So under the old system if you were losing you could at least escape, let them reset and go in with a different tactic. Well that no longer works in some areas.

    But the scaling isn't doing anything to build incentive for players to purchase materials for upgrading their enchantments. If veterans are not feeling the need to upgrade anything, they will most likely dump their materials on the AH. But players coming up that are new will also catch on and not even bother buying them.

    If this premise is true, then it will also hurt zen sales because upgrading runestones/enchantments are what drive the economy right now. When that diminishes then so does everything else.
  • pakatapoespakatapoes Member Posts: 72 Arc User
    I am against down scaling totaly , that is a game killer . Any veteran gamer know this and its strange that the devs dont. If I worked hard to get my toon to god mode or not , I dont want my hard work be put aside to play some game content. You cant say * Iam here to chew bubblegum and kick S * , they took your kick S away with down scaling and leave you with the bubblegum . Now you can chew bubblegum while THEY kick your S
  • krumple01krumple01 Member Posts: 755 Arc User
    bobo#5090 said:



    I am in the boat you describe above. I've been playing for just over a year(T9 was newest dungeon at that time). I only just last week got CODG open and here is what I have noticed going from noob to experienced in that time:

    playing devils advocate here, codg isn't exactly a good metric for anything because of the push pull mechanic. Even veterans have issues with it, either they haven't learned it or they just don't care enough to survive it.
    bobo#5090 said:


    rqs for noobs are/were problematic for noobs with low level gear when they were paired with high level players fully geared that were there for rad/resource farm, and they decide to leave the noob in the dust and not kill mobs. made rqs not fun for me until I ranked my darks to 13(highest one I have ATM) so I could at least keep up/out run the mobs that got left for me cuz I couldn't handle them.

    Yeah I can see the argument from both directions. Not being able to keep up can be frustrating but also from the veterans perspective they are on the same road. However; this removal of movement speed now reduces any incentive that players had to rank up their dark enchantments. So under the new system this experience you had will never happen again but that incentive you had to push your ranks drove the game economy. That is now diminished.
    bobo#5090 said:


    Campaigns were/are problematic for noobs. As soon as you hit level 70, with mostly low level gear most campaigns(I'm looking at you STO, Cloak, ICE, Chult, Ravenloft) are undoable solo. It's just not possible. The issue is that the "low" level 70 campaigns(EE, Maze, Dread, Sharandar) aren't really playable till you hit 10k il(IIRC). And since they all have a weekly/daily currency limit(probably due to shody design ex repeat quest "A" 40x) that you have to run multiple campaigns simultaneously to maintain any kind of variety. This makes people wanna buy better gear-farm rad/buy zen to buy said better gear, and now the campaign specific rewards for armor and such that was meant to get you thru the final boss/ start next campaign aren't worth the effort, and so you finish the campaign for the boons only. I found I couldn't really solo the high lvl 70 campaigns until I got mostly bis gear. Not really that fun to play when it feel like I have to pay to get even remotely decent at doing damage solo. And I still feel like my pally can't do squat for damage against epic level bad guys...

    I have one of each class. They all have their campaigns finished. My experience running campaigns under each class was different, but at the same time since I already had other characters that could share some gear. One aspect that helped new fresh level 70 characters was Barovia Hunts. You can jump into a party easy enough and they are quick. It might not be great gear but its good enough to get you through the other campaigns. You still might struggle a bit in Barovia but that was the way to go for mod 14 and 15 if you were a new fresh 70.
    bobo#5090 said:


    Back scaling should be removed completely, as it sounds it is a mess. We'll see what happens on live over the next few days/weeks. If it is as bad as some say it was on preview, then I will never go back to farm STO for smiting glyphs, or any other area to farm for keys for epic dungeons. It also means I may not be farming as much rad, if any at all. So far I have seen nothing from the new mod that makes me wanna spend real money. I've played it on preview a bit to see just what the new mechs are like for pallys(really not happy with the changes), but it looks like I'll be able to solo the new campaign just fine with my xbox lvl 70 toon. My alts, well they could be sitting the sidelines.

    I agree completely and totally understand. I spent cash on weapons for mod 12 and I feel that was a total waste. I sorta knew that they would probably replace those weapons but they gave us nothing to go along side it. I just felt they would have had some kind of reduced cost in getting the next better weapons if you had purchased any weapons off the zen store. But no, it was you spent cash, and now we are replacing the item you spent cash on. Give us some more money..
    bobo#5090 said:

    -
    I think what they should have been doing from the get go, was introducing a new level cap with each new mod, say 10-20 lvls higher than previous. Bring new powers, or at least increase the stats of the old ones to be appropriate for the new max lvl, and of course new gear that will be good starting points for the new mod.

    What I think was happening was they were at a cap in code. The numbers that you use can only be so large. The larger the number is the more data is required for that information. So sending that data between the server and the client becomes a bigger and bigger issue each time you expand the power creep. I honestly believe they wanted to roll this back so they could use smaller numbers and get around the code cap on how large numbers can get. This unfortunately forces a restructure on everything. Which is what they did.

    Currently on mod 15 my cleric could do 1.5 million damage in a single hit. Imagine if they allowed the power creep to keep going. you would start to see 50 million damage in a single hit. The damage spectrum becomes too big. So their solution was to bring the spectrum extremes closer together. But the draw back to this is that you make players who are fully geared feel like they are brand new characters again. Many players don't like that feeling when they have spent hundreds of hours working on their character.

  • martelis1981martelis1981 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 120 Arc User
    Don't hold your breath for a fix :/

    The developers have already established that the scaling is WAI. That's why most of the veterans and youtubers who tested the alpha/beta of the mod and most of those who tested the preview have left the game. The devs have already clarified that there is nothing to fix because it is the design and arrogantly refuse to take into account the reasoning and suggestions that has been done since the scalling was known.

  • paedurespaedures Member Posts: 22 Arc User
    It does take longer, but not because of scaling. The changes to recharge slow down encounter powers which in turn lengthen the fights.
  • nl54#3191 nl54 Member Posts: 143 Arc User
    Guys, this blows. I can't even solo a Dread Legion skirmish anymore. The first pack of mobs kill me.
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  • greywyndgreywynd Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 6,221 Arc User
    nl54#3191 said:

    Guys, this blows. I can't even solo a Dread Legion skirmish anymore. The first pack of mobs kill me.

    That's kind of the point to the whole mod. No more God Mode.
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  • wemerywemery Member Posts: 190 Arc User
    people on preview have been complaining about this for a month.
    Devs are already aware of player concerns about scaling, but have stated that, "we believe scaling is in a good place". I doubt they will make any modifications until "new" players start voicing concerns. This probably wont happen for 2-3 weeks (average time it would take a casual player to reach level 80). :(
  • matthattrmatthattr Member Posts: 84 Arc User
    I wonder if they can set a email notice thing up, so that us players that don't want to keep wiping to their new scale mechs can just play other games and they can send us a email, letting us know when they get their head out of their asses and stop with the nonsense. I'm out until they fix it..would like a heads up when stop being stupid. :/
  • lordaeoloslordaeolos Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 167 Arc User
    The easiest way to get Scaling to a digestible state for players past level 70, would be to scale just weapon damage, power, hit points, and Combat advantage. The real problem with Scaling is that players work to balance stats for the content, especially so they can hit the cap on ArP, Crit, etc. And most of the angst from end gamers is the fact that a arp capped player at 80, get scaled down in 70 content to be no-where near the cap. As an example, I took my first character of the day yesterday made the adjustments to get companions, feats, all that.. left the same gear on as before and as a level 70 and went to a 70 zone and was at Arp Cap.. I then went through the process of leveling to 80, didn't change a single piece of gear, went back to that level 70 zone and I went to being almost 15k below Arp cap for that zone... For the sake of argument I'm going to choose to forget that anything prior to this mod ever happened... in my scenario old content with the same gear actually becomes much more difficult as you progress in level, and it forces players to create builds and invest resources towards being either non-optimal in the majority of old content, or non-optimal in the new content.
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  • graydoomgraydoom Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 23 Arc User
    Devs just need fix scaling or this is the END, no way to do most dgs... I do Kessel and the boss just kill all of us like nothing... lvl80 dont makes any sense if this still broken
  • kiraskytowerkiraskytower Member Posts: 452 Arc User
    graydoom said:

    Devs just need fix scaling or this is the END, no way to do most dgs... I do Kessel and the boss just kill all of us like nothing... lvl80 dont makes any sense if this still broken

    I'm not a fan of the scaling either, but Kessels and many other of the current dungeons are still beatable. However they do require people to actually play the mechanics in them (many of which are long since forgotten by a player base used to grossly overpowering everything). On preview my guild was able to do Kessels with only 3 of us (OP Tank, HR and CW) without a problem, but all 3 were veteran players who knew the mechanics from back in mod 3 days .... so we let the beholders do much of the damage to Kessel and used the exploding golems to finish him off. If you were just trying to rush right into the middle of the boss/beholders/golems and tried to out DPS the boss ... then it's not a surprise you had trouble.

    It's also worth noting that when scaled you need to reorganize your stats. If scaling down puts your armor pen at 30,000 then you need to add more armor pen from either a companion or mount or some other non-scaling source. Just because your stats were good before the scaling does not mean they will be OK scaled down (This is because the "scaling" system does not really scale anything, it just caps the stats a certain type of item can have, which means if you are getting a large % of important stats from items which get capped, you can end up considerably weaker when scaled down).
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  • robertthebardrobertthebard Member Posts: 543 Arc User

    The easiest way to get Scaling to a digestible state for players past level 70, would be to scale just weapon damage, power, hit points, and Combat advantage. The real problem with Scaling is that players work to balance stats for the content, especially so they can hit the cap on ArP, Crit, etc. And most of the angst from end gamers is the fact that a arp capped player at 80, get scaled down in 70 content to be no-where near the cap. As an example, I took my first character of the day yesterday made the adjustments to get companions, feats, all that.. left the same gear on as before and as a level 70 and went to a 70 zone and was at Arp Cap.. I then went through the process of leveling to 80, didn't change a single piece of gear, went back to that level 70 zone and I went to being almost 15k below Arp cap for that zone... For the sake of argument I'm going to choose to forget that anything prior to this mod ever happened... in my scenario old content with the same gear actually becomes much more difficult as you progress in level, and it forces players to create builds and invest resources towards being either non-optimal in the majority of old content, or non-optimal in the new content.

    So my question would be this: Did you need maxed out stats to run that content initially? Did you need lvl 80 gear and stats to run it last week? I would hope the answer would be no, since it wasn't live, and so was unobtainable. So the next question would then be: Why are you struggling now?

    I'm going to provide an observable answer: I saw a video that was posted on these forums to support that the content is "impossible" to run. In this video, they got through two bosses, and on the third they wiped. What made it impossible was the way they were playing, which comes from years of being able to ignore 90% or more of the mechanics and just stand in stupid "because it won't kill me", and then be all surprised when it does. In this video, they're not standing in a single little red circle, they're standing in a solid red bar, with a red circle dropped right where they are, and not one of them tried to move out of it. That isn't a game design flaw, that's player error, and one that's easy enough to avoid, it's not like they can say, as they can in GW 2 for example, that the player effects are too flashy to see the AoEs. They got used to it not being a big deal, and they died.

    Ironically, in any other circumstance, most of the end game community would have been all over them about it being their fault, but now? There's this narrative that it's not the player's fault that the content can kill them, it's got to be a design flaw.
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  • brandemisbrandemis Member Posts: 35 Arc User
    This is no t the game i enjoy ... if the devs can listen to the people ... them .. gg see ya!!!
  • gphxgphxgphxgphx Member Posts: 184 Arc User
    edited April 2019
    'There's this narrative that it's not the player's fault that the content can kill them, it's got to be a design flaw.'

    On a formerly ridiculously easy solo quest instance I got scaled down to level 60 and dumped in with level 71 mobs. I was unable to put a dent in their health bars and once the NPC helping me and my companion died I got pounded to goo and they proceeded to camp the respawn point leaving me no choice but to hit Alt F4 and close the game. Those were the first mobs.

    Am I just a crappy player? How about the NPC who was helping me until she got disintegrated and never returned? Or is it a design flaw? Is a player being 'gray' to 'orange' mobs normal and working as intended? That's not gameplay, it's griefing.


    All I'm saying is people shouldn't get all elite just because game killing, soul crushing, buggy play hasn't happened to them personally. Something is severely broken and, in many instances, completely unplayable whether you or the developers choose to listen or not.
    Post edited by gphxgphx on
  • robertthebardrobertthebard Member Posts: 543 Arc User
    gphxgphx said:

    'There's this narrative that it's not the player's fault that the content can kill them, it's got to be a design flaw.'

    On a formerly ridiculously easy solo quest instance I got scaled down to level 60 and dumped in with level 71 mobs. I was unable to put a dent in their health bars and once the NPC helping me and my companion died I got pounded to goo and they proceeded to camp the respawn point leaving me no choice but to hit Alt F4 and close the game.

    Am I just a crappy player? How about the NPC who was helping me until she got disintegrated and never returned? Or is it a design flaw? Is a player being 'gray' to 'orange' mobs normal?

    All I'm saying is people shouldn't get all elite just because game killing, soul crushing, buggy play hasn't happened to them personally. Something is severely broken and, in many instances, completely unplayable whether you or the developers choose to listen or not.

    If I encounter a bug like that, I log out and report it. I've seen all kinds of interesting bugs over the years, even in content that I'd run bug free previously. If you're looking for a bug free experience, you're going to be out of luck in gaming. I have yet to come across a game that has no bugs, or where previously working content just stopped working.

    I listed another example of why I'm not buying the "but we're helpless" narrative from this morning's session: I was doing the daily dragon quests in Neverdeath, and the Heroic dragon died so fast that my archer got one shot on it before it died, and I never even got to fire an encounter power. The previous day, it took a few minutes to kill the same dragon, with the same number of people there, approximately, I didn't count. So, either people in the group that I was with today were hacking, or someone's telling stories.
    Reading comprehension is essential in a medium that requires reading for communication.
  • ragnarz2ragnarz2 Member Posts: 208 Arc User

    gphxgphx said:

    'There's this narrative that it's not the player's fault that the content can kill them, it's got to be a design flaw.'

    On a formerly ridiculously easy solo quest instance I got scaled down to level 60 and dumped in with level 71 mobs. I was unable to put a dent in their health bars and once the NPC helping me and my companion died I got pounded to goo and they proceeded to camp the respawn point leaving me no choice but to hit Alt F4 and close the game.

    Am I just a crappy player? How about the NPC who was helping me until she got disintegrated and never returned? Or is it a design flaw? Is a player being 'gray' to 'orange' mobs normal?

    All I'm saying is people shouldn't get all elite just because game killing, soul crushing, buggy play hasn't happened to them personally. Something is severely broken and, in many instances, completely unplayable whether you or the developers choose to listen or not.

    If I encounter a bug like that, I log out and report it. I've seen all kinds of interesting bugs over the years, even in content that I'd run bug free previously. If you're looking for a bug free experience, you're going to be out of luck in gaming. I have yet to come across a game that has no bugs, or where previously working content just stopped working.

    I listed another example of why I'm not buying the "but we're helpless" narrative from this morning's session: I was doing the daily dragon quests in Neverdeath, and the Heroic dragon died so fast that my archer got one shot on it before it died, and I never even got to fire an encounter power. The previous day, it took a few minutes to kill the same dragon, with the same number of people there, approximately, I didn't count. So, either people in the group that I was with today were hacking, or someone's telling stories.
    That is like using cold weather to deny global warning.
  • robertthebardrobertthebard Member Posts: 543 Arc User
    edited April 2019
    ragnarz2 said:

    gphxgphx said:

    'There's this narrative that it's not the player's fault that the content can kill them, it's got to be a design flaw.'

    On a formerly ridiculously easy solo quest instance I got scaled down to level 60 and dumped in with level 71 mobs. I was unable to put a dent in their health bars and once the NPC helping me and my companion died I got pounded to goo and they proceeded to camp the respawn point leaving me no choice but to hit Alt F4 and close the game.

    Am I just a crappy player? How about the NPC who was helping me until she got disintegrated and never returned? Or is it a design flaw? Is a player being 'gray' to 'orange' mobs normal?

    All I'm saying is people shouldn't get all elite just because game killing, soul crushing, buggy play hasn't happened to them personally. Something is severely broken and, in many instances, completely unplayable whether you or the developers choose to listen or not.

    If I encounter a bug like that, I log out and report it. I've seen all kinds of interesting bugs over the years, even in content that I'd run bug free previously. If you're looking for a bug free experience, you're going to be out of luck in gaming. I have yet to come across a game that has no bugs, or where previously working content just stopped working.

    I listed another example of why I'm not buying the "but we're helpless" narrative from this morning's session: I was doing the daily dragon quests in Neverdeath, and the Heroic dragon died so fast that my archer got one shot on it before it died, and I never even got to fire an encounter power. The previous day, it took a few minutes to kill the same dragon, with the same number of people there, approximately, I didn't count. So, either people in the group that I was with today were hacking, or someone's telling stories.
    That is like using cold weather to deny global warning.
    Yeah, about that, I'm still waiting for that Ice Age we were supposed to have back in the 70s. Any word on when that's coming around?

    Edit: Oh yeah, I forgot: so scaling only happens when it happens to you?
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  • silvertailsilvertail Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 96 Arc User
    Playing around in a few different area's shows that each area is scaling different. Some area's have bad scaling and some let you still somewhat feel like a god. I know a lvl 30 SW got one shoted in the basement of AI. Granted no she does not know how to play the char as she is new to the game and just learning but she was upset since she had been so looking forward to this mod coming out. Since I'm not end game I don't know how they feel however since I do still need to run different areas to get my boons I need to be able to play without a party.

    I mean has anyone tried the mini dungeons in river district for the weekly yet to see if they can be done?
    What about Chult? I was 13.7k in mod 15. I could play in Chult though I would die . Yes I know to dodge and learned how to kill mobs and which ones had to die first so I stayed alive.

    We have to relearn the game and how to play it. Some may like that other's won't.
    My thoughts are the scaling is broke. What makes it broke is the fact that some areas work while others are almost undoable. What makes me think it is even more broke is the fact that any new player that comes in isn't going to know how to play their char fully at lvl 30. Everyone keeps looking at this from lvl 70 going to lvl 80 pov. Not everyone knows how to equal out stats. Yes they should look at you tube vids and twitch to help with that but some people won't or in the case of my 70 year old mother who plays this game isn't interested in watching someone else play.

    Those are the people that I am concerned about when it come to scaling.
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