I am not going to repeat what I have said before, but I will make a set of predictions.
1) What we now have on Preview will go live.
2) There will be a massive outcry, in particular from those not active on the forums.
3) Player number and Zen sales will drop and new players will not compensate.
4) In June we will get a fix, but the number of active players will have dropped by 25%.
to point four.. or more.
If Mod 6 is any indication, it won't be in June. They'll wait until player numbers have drastically plummeted before issuing any kind of mea culpa. Don't expect to see that until December at the earliest.
The way this is looking, I'm going to need a synonym for "Hubris" to name this mod. Mod 6 already claimed that one.
Harper Chronicles: Cap Snatchers (RELEASED) - NW-DPUTABC6X Blood Magic (RELEASED) - NW-DUU2P7HCO Children of the Fey (RELEASED) - NW-DKSSAPFPF Buried Under Blacklake (WIP) - NW-DEDV2PAEP The Redcap Rebels (WIP) - NW-DO23AFHFH
My Foundry playthrough channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/Ruskaga/featured
Thanks for going into detail, but I'm still struggling with "salt" or "really that bad", especially reading some of the justifications for "really that bad". I do know that, scaled to 12, they may as well have not bothered with scaling, because I still went through it solo on a Trickster Rogue that's probably no where near optimized even for at level content, with no issues at all, and I haven't played in years, literally.
You can just hop on preview and check and form your opinion on your experience, which then can be debated. I'm not sure what is the point of asking for more of the same opinions there are already here, you will not differentiate between whatever you perceive as just whining and a real issue by reading more of the same.
Regardless, the main issue is not that there is scaling, scaling with its evils has some benefits. The issue is that this so called 'scaling' doesn't scale players relative to each other, but instead a simple cap. Hence a a player who played for about half year and has only a bit above the free catch-up gear will be almost exactly the same as someone who is BiS and plays for 6 years.
A proper scaling will scale players down, but maintaining some relative ratio between players where a bis player will be lowered, but still better than someone who just got their free gear and upgraded the enchants one rank up.
Cap != Progress. Simple as that.
What is the point of upgrading anything, if it's all canceled.
Except that I can't. I quit a bit over 5 years ago because I felt like the game was way too easy to keep me interested, and moved on, instead of coming to the forums and ranting for 5 years. I tend to do that. I could, I guess, move my 63 over and get busy, but frankly if I'm going to put that much time, or investment into that character, I'd rather have it be on live, where I'll reap any benefits I do get.
Cap == Progress. In the level appropriate zones, there is no scaling, as I understood the post from the dev post. So anything done at 80, in Undermountain, is with whatever's left of the full benefits of the gear players have, and point distribution, etc. So all of this excitement isn't that players won't be able to do the content at level, but that max level players won't be able to just blow through it like it's not there.
Reading comprehension is essential in a medium that requires reading for communication.
this is the only game ive played in a long time where scaling means nerfing the player. how much more sense would it make if the enemies scaled to your level, not your item level. then everywhere you go youll have the same difficulty and there is still a benefit to building your character up threw item level so that even though your the same level most of the enemies your item level lets you overpower them. its a simple concept but for some reason its lost when games are developed in a bubble.
You don't play many MMOs? Here's a chart topper for you that does exactly what you claim doesn't happen: GW 2.
I play lots of games, I don't prefer mmos, but I do like arpg. but what im basically saying is there is more then one way to create scaling in a game, like destiny 2 most enemy's in an open zone are based on your level, even if your grouped with higher or lower leveled people everything is scaled to your personal level in free play. that's why when the game launched people would stay in the first free play area till they hit max level, usually after about 8 hrs.
but what most people want is the way borderlands scales in that its all based on having a dozen or so zones based on different levels so that when you go back and play in a zone you became to powerful for any enemy you fight dies, often more violently.
the scaling that I come across more in games now like in assassins creed odyssey, ghost recon wildlands, is there are enemy's scaled to zones levels but once you level higher then the zone the enemies level with you. which is story driven scaling.
Cap == Progress. In the level appropriate zones, there is no scaling, as I understood the post from the dev post. So anything done at 80, in Undermountain, is with whatever's left of the full benefits of the gear players have, and point distribution, etc. So all of this excitement isn't that players won't be able to do the content at level, but that max level players won't be able to just blow through it like it's not there.
Here is the easy way to understand:
Right now on Live there is a 2k iL gap between the minimum needed to access Master Spellplague Caverns and Castle Ravenloft.
While you are level 70 on Mod 16 you are not scaled for this content.
Once you are level 71 you will be scaled below the effective minimum requirement on Live for Master Spellplague.
You can start Mod 16 able to complete all content in the game, gain 1 level and suddenly be nerfed.
I’m supportive of a cap, I’m not supportive of a cap that discards all progress because you gain 1 level and reduces you to below the minimum standard for some of the content you are expected to do at that cap. Caps should respect progress and reward it, by only functioning at or near the peak values for the content, that way lower geared players are not punished and high geared players are rewarded for doing so. Right now, everyone is punished.
And I’m not salty, I went in game and gathered numerical evidence that it is not a functional system right now. I want it to be a working system that makes lower level content more engaging without it punishing players for progress.
Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin Obsidian Oath - Warlock A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
Cap == Progress. In the level appropriate zones, there is no scaling, as I understood the post from the dev post. So anything done at 80, in Undermountain, is with whatever's left of the full benefits of the gear players have, and point distribution, etc. So all of this excitement isn't that players won't be able to do the content at level, but that max level players won't be able to just blow through it like it's not there.
No, you aren't understanding what we're saying.
You hit the cap for *all content* except a single levelling zone, almost instantly.
You hit the cap for *75% of all content* instantly at level 70. The remaining 25% is that "almost". By reaching level 70, you are already past the cap for 75% of all content.
By reaching level 80, you are past the cap for all content except one levelling zone.
(At level 80, your stats are actually LOWER than they were at level 70. Different problem, also a problem.)
There is no advantage to being higher level with better gear. There's actually a DISADVANTAGE. And that's *all the content available*.
By playing the game at all, you get worse. And no matter how long you play the game, you never get better. That's the problem.
Bonus: Since *all the group content* is capped to *a starting player, or just slightly over a starting player*, there's a side effect: The level 80 gear is *worse* than the level 70 gear, in everything except that one levelling zone.
I don't think the scaled part of the game being "too easy" or "too difficult" is the problem (that's relative, it's always for some), just has to be fairly consistent, and isn't, whatever math is used needs a rework.
Picture this.... You go play a round of golf with your top of the line clubs and balls. Not the most challenging course, but a course you've mastered and is still fun. As you walk up to the 1st tee box, the caddie says "dude... your gear is too good, I need you to use this fisher price set or wear a blind fold to play."
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lordseth1985Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 319Arc User
Picture this.... You go play a round of golf with your top of the line clubs and balls. Not the most challenging course, but a course you've mastered and is still fun. As you walk up to the 1st tee box, the caddie says "dude... your gear is too good, I need you to use this fisher price set or wear a blind fold to play."
It's sad cuz it's true... that's the feling about mod 16 and scalling.
Avestruz.Q.T.Seduz - Rogue, natural born assassin.
1. Implement extra-harsh "scaling" (i.e. capping) which will make doing level-70 campaigns unreasonably hard. 2. Put campaign buyout tokens on sale. 3. Profit!
It's getting really hard to not be cynical.
Harper Chronicles: Cap Snatchers (RELEASED) - NW-DPUTABC6X Blood Magic (RELEASED) - NW-DUU2P7HCO Children of the Fey (RELEASED) - NW-DKSSAPFPF Buried Under Blacklake (WIP) - NW-DEDV2PAEP The Redcap Rebels (WIP) - NW-DO23AFHFH
My Foundry playthrough channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/Ruskaga/featured
Picture this.... You go play a round of golf with your top of the line clubs and balls. Not the most challenging course, but a course you've mastered and is still fun. As you walk up to the 1st tee box, the caddie says "dude... your gear is too good, I need you to use this fisher price set or wear a blind fold to play."
It's sad cuz it's true... that's the feling about mod 16 and scalling.
If we can't solo the small HE's in the Stronghold to earn influence, oh boy... you won't need to use ingame chat, you'll be able to just open the window to hear people cussing you out. No joke. "Hell to pay" won't even begin to cover it. Remember when Kirk yelled "KHAN!!!"? Khan didn't need the communicator; he could hear him. It'll be something like that.
Harper Chronicles: Cap Snatchers (RELEASED) - NW-DPUTABC6X Blood Magic (RELEASED) - NW-DUU2P7HCO Children of the Fey (RELEASED) - NW-DKSSAPFPF Buried Under Blacklake (WIP) - NW-DEDV2PAEP The Redcap Rebels (WIP) - NW-DO23AFHFH
My Foundry playthrough channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/Ruskaga/featured
@noworries#8859 So what are you working towards now in the game? Since as you get to end game you want to lvl enchantments, rank up companions, work towards getting better mounts, and most importantly work to get better gear and weapons. So as you work to do all of that it makes you scale lower or the same as to the IL you had before you got that whats the point of working towards it? What becomes the point of the game then?
It's starting to look like your hoping to kill Neverwinter since you might be close to the launch of your other game. Hoping that players will switch over. Sorry but I don't see that happening for me anyways since if you do that to one game you will do it to another.
This makes me sad since I have been on Neverwinter since almost the start of it. Stayed with it because of the combat and gameplay that i enjoyed. I enjoyed working to make my char stronger and stronger while helping others when I could. Now I'm not sure what the point of playing the game is since the only place you don't get scaled is undermountain.
This has the same feeling as give every kid a trophy even if they don't put any work into getting it.
stealth is survival skills (and not tanking skills, that is really different)
stealth is damage
stealth is mobility
stealth is everything
everything is stealth
Stealth make TR OP, but lack of stealth make TR useless.
4
dread4moorMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,154Arc User
i very rarely come on the forums.... i'm also a positive person.
BUT.
this thread is great. everyone is agreeing that the scaling is bad. the fact that everyone is agreeing in a place where there's always people who disagree should make this very clear: the current scaling is bad. ... this approach to fixing that problem is terrible. instead of being rewarded for completing zones and upgrading my stuff, i'm now being punished because i'm just forced back to the same stats i had before.
... this is a mistake.
i'm not one to rant or be negative. but even my patience is wearing thin.
Had to re-quote this. @noworries#8859@mimicking#6533@nitocris83 Please read Silv3ry's comment again. Coming from a calm, positive, highly respected, pro-NW veteran player and preview tester. She's one of your biggest fans and a major promoter of the game. Sil is the opposite of a troll, always trying to find something positive in the game. Sil is the peaceful Dali Lahma of NW. If you don't trust anyone else here, surely you can trust her.
Yet even Sil is telling you, without equivocation, that "this is a mistake".
How many red flags do you need?
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
My character at level 70 in Sharandar in 70 gear no boons or feats has more HP than my level 80 with a helm and boots plus rings from expeditions and rest of stuff from quests. 3k less HP at level 80, this is the problem which everyone is trying to get across.
If the scaling is because of this new challenge campaign thing, drop it.
This will have direct adverse affects on guilds that are still leveling up. Donations will slow.
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seridkalsenovMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 30Arc User
alright my patience is at my limit. where can i find down vote on this threads ??? oh yes there is no down vote
now if u guys (all devs of cryptic) think downscaling is good so what's the point i been grinding, spent billion ADs, grinding gear, getting Masterwork gear, getting runestones to R13 (many players reached 14) spending over 3 years playing this game and me and other veteran player got this ????
are u guys want to remove all the veteran player and let the new player learn by their own ???? is this about New player ??? u know that veteran player also helping u getting new player ?????
now my special question have u actually know about this game ??? 3 years i been getting worst part of the game M6 exodus Storm king thunder the most grinding campaign. do u think we 15k-19k+ geared veteran player carrying a team is bad ?? now what if 10 new fresh player did codg didnt know the mechanic. are they able to finish the dungeon by their own ????
Im talking about veteran player need a love. stop keep talking about new player, u lose ur veteran player Good Luck maintaining the game with nobody have the knowledge of the game,
Ok, so i'm really not a fan of scaling in the first place, when I learnt to drive a car in order to pass a driving test it was on the understanding the more time I spent behind a wheel the better driver i would become. I really wouldn't expect the the difficulty of the driving test and and the road conditions to get harder in line with my own progress to ensure i could never become a safe driver. This is the same principle, if forced into lower end content I've earn't the right to be able to cruise through it easily, as i have progressed well beyond the level of challenge those zones should offer.
But on top of the fact I don't like scaling, I'm being treated to comments like scaling is in a good place. It isn't every single player who has been on preview can and has on this forum given you very specific feedback about just how badly broken scaling currently is. Then we get comments from @noworries#8859 telling us scaling isn't broken and all level 70 zones will scale to varying levels of difficulty as Barovia will scale enchants to level 9 other lower. Level 9 really!! So a developer for this game firstly doesn't understand that level 9 enchants are stupidly easy to get, so why pick such a low level for what is currently the hardest level 70 content. Secondly doesn't appear to realise that any new level 70 can go to Barovia pick up those level 9 enchants and then go back to older content thus rendering the difference between a brand new level 70 and a BIS level 80 in any level 70 content immaterial.
I could never bring myself to believe the Devs didn't really play the game before, but with these comments from @noworries#8859 i now can't believe they have ever spent any real time in the game, as it would not be possible to be so wrong on a subject if they had. I was upset with the changes before, the arrogance and ignorance of these replies have infuriated me.
Sadly for me my mind is already made up, after years in the game and £000's spent leveling up 8 toons to all be able to complete any content, i've already made up my mind to walk away, aside from maybe key collecting on the off chance the game improves. Its only been 2 weeks since i stopped logging in so far, but i have no plans to return when Mod 16 actually drops. For those of you that choose to stay, firstly good luck - but can i also suggest you all boycott the game for say 1 month just to get the message across that both the current level of communication and the belief they can just ride roughshod over player opinion isn't acceptable. Best of luck to you all, I hope things improve quickly.
Scaling players down has traditionally not truly changed a players ability compared to the content they were scaled to. Along with our fixes to item level, we added in item level scaling which should provide a better version of scaling going forward.
Now we will scale a player down to a target item level. This won’t be exact as it will scale different items to different values (Enchantments will have a different scaled item level than equipment due to their different magnitudes) and because of this a player can end up a bit above or a bit below the target value. But overall it should bring the players closer to each other and closer to the content.
This does mean that players who are put in lower difficulty dungeons will find more challenge than in the past, but that challenge will still be less than an endgame dungeon would be.
This system was designed so that it will be easy to tune to make sure that we can end up with ideal scaling moving forward. We look forward to players getting to experience this new scaling, along with the new item level accuracy, we look forward to your feedback as this gets to preview.
I remember reading this and thinking, "Well, that's OK... a bit more challenge in old content... that's fine." I didn't think that scaling meant trying to force players to be no better than an average competitor in a previously completed zone/content. Cos... why the Hell would anyone want to do that? That's not rhetorical... seriously... WHY?
Going back to that very first line... "Scaling players down has traditionally not truly changed a players ability compared to the content they were scaled to." I have to ask, "So what?" Why is it suddenly so important that a player not be able to kick the rump of old content?
Is there anyone who thinks that scaling should be "Complete drag back to basics" rather than a sort of "Safety nerf" just to give the lower level players a chance to keep up?
By all means make it a bit tougher, in fact please DO! But why the need to drag people kicking and screaming back to a point where they are WORSE than they were when they did the content initially?
THAT isn't "Scaling". That's just silly!
I don't know if there is even time to fix it before today's patch or next week's LIVE launch... But anything that brings the entire community together in agreement that it's not just broken but a real, proper, major problem, that you believe is in "a good place" should give you pause to stop and think that maybe it needs looking at again... you know one last time... just to be sure.
This isn't a group of people angry that they're losing Astral Diamond farm, or aggrieved at Bonding nerfs. This is pretty much EVERYONE, saying that Scaling, as it sits right now, is very, badly broken!
I honestly don't see how you think the scaling will be a good thing. It feels like you don't care about keeping your veteran players. I LOVE this game, but the game I love is gone. I see some hope, but unless the scaling is REALLY FIXED (as in ELIMINATED) then I don't see any hope for the game. Who would support a game that doesn't take care of it's veteran players. Your new players will quit once they reach lvl 80 because the game will be done for them once they reach it. This is going to make it so much harder to rank up a guild as well. I am coming to you respectfully. Please please take away the scaling.
Made my first character in april 6th 2015 i play on xbox. I enjoy this game in its current state and every previous one. Have never had much bad to say about the game or the devs regardless of all the underhanded things ive witnessed you do to the community. Havent witnessed scaling first hand as im on console but ive seen many changes made to this game in the name of "not trivializing content" your words not mine. But it seems this is nothing more than trivializing the entirety of the game. I will be witnessing level 80 im not gonna say im going to love it. This is the first time ive seen everyone on here agree on anything. Thats significant to me. Im not gonna bad mouth anyone or this game but when it comes down to it i will let my wallet do my speaking. Will not support a game that i dont enjoy.
Is it my understanding that to essentially combat this we would have to have a set of rank 70 gear for old content and for new content have a set of rank 80 gear? If so that s just dumb. The whole point of this game is the interaction with others. As an endgame player if I cant help a new player get their first completion in a dungeon because they are actually stronger than I am the game js essentially done. As a community we have come together to tell you why this is a mistake. MMO's have always been built on the community aspect. Not being able to help new players kills the new playerbase you are trying to create.
Thanks for going into detail, but I'm still struggling with "salt" or "really that bad", especially reading some of the justifications for "really that bad". I do know that, scaled to 12, they may as well have not bothered with scaling, because I still went through it solo on a Trickster Rogue that's probably no where near optimized even for at level content, with no issues at all, and I haven't played in years, literally.
You can just hop on preview and check and form your opinion on your experience, which then can be debated. I'm not sure what is the point of asking for more of the same opinions there are already here, you will not differentiate between whatever you perceive as just whining and a real issue by reading more of the same.
Regardless, the main issue is not that there is scaling, scaling with its evils has some benefits. The issue is that this so called 'scaling' doesn't scale players relative to each other, but instead a simple cap. Hence a a player who played for about half year and has only a bit above the free catch-up gear will be almost exactly the same as someone who is BiS and plays for 6 years.
A proper scaling will scale players down, but maintaining some relative ratio between players where a bis player will be lowered, but still better than someone who just got their free gear and upgraded the enchants one rank up.
Cap != Progress. Simple as that.
What is the point of upgrading anything, if it's all canceled.
Except that I can't. I quit a bit over 5 years ago because I felt like the game was way too easy to keep me interested, and moved on, instead of coming to the forums and ranting for 5 years. I tend to do that. I could, I guess, move my 63 over and get busy, but frankly if I'm going to put that much time, or investment into that character, I'd rather have it be on live, where I'll reap any benefits I do get.
Cap == Progress. In the level appropriate zones, there is no scaling, as I understood the post from the dev post. So anything done at 80, in Undermountain, is with whatever's left of the full benefits of the gear players have, and point distribution, etc. So all of this excitement isn't that players won't be able to do the content at level, but that max level players won't be able to just blow through it like it's not there.
which gw2 are you playing? zonal scaling with cap in gw2? what am i missing? cap= progress? what???? so lets say you work at the kitchen and there's this food that everyone struggles with, which you too struggled with for ages, but its now easy peasy for you cos u've invested time into practising and finding ways to make the recipe easier: After a few upgrades to the menu, you are forced to go back to that same dish, But now for some rediculous reason, your knowlegde is limited and can no longer do the same dish as easy as it used to be. Where is the progress in this? please define me progress, im waiting. If im having to struggle with a zone is struggled with but after hard work, i managed to overcome the struggle, then there's a massive issue.
Lemme put another easy example for you to understand in the form of incentives, imagine being paid 10 bucks to do a normal job, and as time passes, u get better and better at the job. the job gets more complex as time goes, but u still adapt and better it. how would u feel if at that point u are still being paid 10 bucks? definitely not happy, i can 1000% assure u that.
Lardeson CW not Mage. Where's my fireball and my thunderbolt?
I am not going to repeat what I have said before, but I will make a set of predictions.
1) What we now have on Preview will go live.
2) There will be a massive outcry, in particular from those not active on the forums.
3) Player number and Zen sales will drop and new players will not compensate.
4) In June we will get a fix, but the number of active players will have dropped by 25%.
to point four.. or more.
If Mod 6 is any indication, it won't be in June. They'll wait until player numbers have drastically plummeted before issuing any kind of mea culpa. Don't expect to see that until December at the earliest.
The way this is looking, I'm going to need a synonym for "Hubris" to name this mod. Mod 6 already claimed that one.
Hubrismountainpartdeux?
0
rifter1969Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 516Arc User
Cryptic,
This scaling issue is a real big problem across many aspects of the game.
First, I am upset by this. I am by no means a BiS player. I don't have many rank 14 enchants, have 4 legendary companions. And had to grind and farm Chult and Barovia for a long while to get the right gear, for two loadouts. Spent a month, even with the better gear to finish the last 2 boons from SKT. Queued up for Tiamat a whole weekend to get enough Linu favors to finish the ToD/WoD boons. My main, a warlock, who I have been playing since the release of the class, just managed to get to 16k iLevel within the last 2 months for both of her loadouts. Because, the class was in such a bad place for so long, I was forced to do a temptation build just to beg into ToNG parties. And you want to know something, I was so proud of myself for finally getting to that point, I felt that it a sort of coming out for my character.
I thought to myself, I can finally get into the current end-game dungeons.
I spent a lot of time, watching you-tube videos and reading guides on how to master the push/pull in CoDG, that now I can do it without falling off the platform anymore. And I was able to teach other people how to do it. I spent a whole weekend watching videos on Castle Ravenloft. Learning the mechanics. Where I got down on how to use the tome in the Sisters battle, and I got pretty good at it. And the first time I was able to finish Castle Ravenloft, it felt so good and again so proud of myself. All that work paid off. All that grinding paid off. I felt that I really understood this game, and I WAS HAVING FUN.
I spent months, in time and energy, ADs and other resources, not to mention real money, to get this character to this point, all the while being the guild leader to a very small guild that lost most of my members. Luckily I joined an Alliance with a bunch of really awesome people. We help each other, both built up players, and the new players.
We would run dungeons with the newer players, to help them learn the mechanics, run them through Barovia hunts for gear. Chult/Omu hunts for gear. And.. we had fun doing it.
Me and few others from my Alliance toiled a lot to get Omuian hunt lures and managed to make a few Tyrant hunt lures so our newer players can experience it, and get some cool stuff, and also be able to say that they were able to do it.
This scaling business is going to be a disaster. Not just for end-game players, but mid-game players like myself, and new players.
If this scaling is working as intended, the end-game players are going to refuse to do low level content. Finish up any level 80 content and move on. If they refuse to do low level content or leave, who will be there to teach the mid and new players? Or be in queues to help the mid and new players complete queues? If those mid and new players can't get people to fill up queues or not be able to beat dungeons, what will happen to them? They will leave too.
And what about Guilds and Alliances? Players have been working to get their Stronghold built, or are still in the process of getting built, my guild is finally getting rank 3 structures to build a rank 7 guildhall. I was so happy when the fist boon structure was built. I put in months of time and effort to get those. As I stated earlier. I am the guild leader to a small guild that has lost its membership to the point where I'm the only active person left. Did it mostly on my own. Luckily I joined an Alliance that has some pretty awesome people in it and they helped when and where they could while still doing their own stronghold.
So now, with this scaling and I got to go into older content to run the Master of Coins quests, I'm going to have to work harder and spend more time to get shards. To the point that I feel that it is the only thing I can do during my gaming sessions. Is that supposed to be fun? If all I'm doing is that, I can't run dungeons and we come back to the point of not filling up those again.
And if I decide to run dungeons, then my stronghold doesn't get updated, and all the previous work I put in was for nothing.
And what about Masterwork? I finally got to the point where I can do this. Got my Forgehammer of Gond over the Winter Event. And hit Masterwork professions running. Prior to getting the hammer, I was dabbling in it. But now, I got the incentive to do it more aggressively. Been getting Explorer charts and going into the lower zones to farm resources. Which is time consuming, even on a legendary mount, to run to all the nodes. Well at least I don't have to worry about the critters in the zone because I'm way higher level than them. Ooops, here comes scaling... now what, I'm the same? So now, not only do have have to go to all those nodes, but.. i have to avoid or fight mobs? Isn't that just another layer of annoyance that I have to do? Just another layer of time wasting? I beat Hotennow, Vellosk, Whispering Caverns, why should I have to endure it again?
It's a shame really. I have been on preview, and playing the new content. Kudos to the graphics team because the new Undermountain areas look amazing! Well worth the wait for this part of the Forgotten Realms to come to the game.
But, if I'm going to penalized, or hamstrung because I put in a lot of time and effort to make my character better, than what point is there going to lower areas? What point is there to do anything but the level 80 content? Sure make it a little more challenging than allowing me to one-shot mobs, but do not make it so that all that effort I put in, as many others did, does not count for anything?
I have been in Neverwinter since about mod 4. I have played almost exclusively Neverwinter, with the occasional popping into Star Trek online, which by the way I was playing at launch of that. So I have been a Cryptic player for nearly what 15 years? I still remember when Cryptic was owned by Atari, and the turmoil that happened when Atari put you up for sale. The long drought of content and stuff that happened while Cryptic waited for a buyer.
This is by far, the worse decision I have seen come out of Cryptic. Forcing players who spent a lot and supported the game for a long time, to basically telling them that what they did previously doesn't matter anymore.
I got to say one thing positive, about this. And a few others have stated it already... In all my time as a Cryptic player, I do believe that this is the first time between STO and NW that I have seen the community agree on a topic in unison.
While we understand some players have concerns over scaling, we believe it is in an overall pretty good place.
I wonder if it is even possible to become more delusional. But I guess yes. Or maybe I have just been teleported in some alternative reality. Sorry, cannot take this seriously. Good luck to Cryptic to find your way back to reality. Chances are not good. You are not even trying.
Comments
The way this is looking, I'm going to need a synonym for "Hubris" to name this mod. Mod 6 already claimed that one.
Blood Magic (RELEASED) - NW-DUU2P7HCO
Children of the Fey (RELEASED) - NW-DKSSAPFPF
Buried Under Blacklake (WIP) - NW-DEDV2PAEP
The Redcap Rebels (WIP) - NW-DO23AFHFH
My Foundry playthrough channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/Ruskaga/featured
Cap == Progress. In the level appropriate zones, there is no scaling, as I understood the post from the dev post. So anything done at 80, in Undermountain, is with whatever's left of the full benefits of the gear players have, and point distribution, etc. So all of this excitement isn't that players won't be able to do the content at level, but that max level players won't be able to just blow through it like it's not there.
but what most people want is the way borderlands scales in that its all based on having a dozen or so zones based on different levels so that when you go back and play in a zone you became to powerful for any enemy you fight dies, often more violently.
the scaling that I come across more in games now like in assassins creed odyssey, ghost recon wildlands, is there are enemy's scaled to zones levels but once you level higher then the zone the enemies level with you. which is story driven scaling.
Right now on Live there is a 2k iL gap between the minimum needed to access Master Spellplague Caverns and Castle Ravenloft.
While you are level 70 on Mod 16 you are not scaled for this content.
Once you are level 71 you will be scaled below the effective minimum requirement on Live for Master Spellplague.
You can start Mod 16 able to complete all content in the game, gain 1 level and suddenly be nerfed.
I’m supportive of a cap, I’m not supportive of a cap that discards all progress because you gain 1 level and reduces you to below the minimum standard for some of the content you are expected to do at that cap. Caps should respect progress and reward it, by only functioning at or near the peak values for the content, that way lower geared players are not punished and high geared players are rewarded for doing so. Right now, everyone is punished.
And I’m not salty, I went in game and gathered numerical evidence that it is not a functional system right now. I want it to be a working system that makes lower level content more engaging without it punishing players for progress.
Obsidian Oath - Warlock
A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
You hit the cap for *all content* except a single levelling zone, almost instantly.
You hit the cap for *75% of all content* instantly at level 70. The remaining 25% is that "almost". By reaching level 70, you are already past the cap for 75% of all content.
By reaching level 80, you are past the cap for all content except one levelling zone.
(At level 80, your stats are actually LOWER than they were at level 70. Different problem, also a problem.)
There is no advantage to being higher level with better gear. There's actually a DISADVANTAGE. And that's *all the content available*.
By playing the game at all, you get worse. And no matter how long you play the game, you never get better. That's the problem.
Bonus: Since *all the group content* is capped to *a starting player, or just slightly over a starting player*, there's a side effect: The level 80 gear is *worse* than the level 70 gear, in everything except that one levelling zone.
Picture this....
You go play a round of golf with your top of the line clubs and balls. Not the most challenging course, but a course you've mastered and is still fun. As you walk up to the 1st tee box, the caddie says "dude... your gear is too good, I need you to use this fisher price set or wear a blind fold to play."
2. Put campaign buyout tokens on sale.
3. Profit!
It's getting really hard to not be cynical.
Blood Magic (RELEASED) - NW-DUU2P7HCO
Children of the Fey (RELEASED) - NW-DKSSAPFPF
Buried Under Blacklake (WIP) - NW-DEDV2PAEP
The Redcap Rebels (WIP) - NW-DO23AFHFH
My Foundry playthrough channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/Ruskaga/featured
If we can't solo the small HE's in the Stronghold to earn influence, oh boy... you won't need to use ingame chat, you'll be able to just open the window to hear people cussing you out. No joke. "Hell to pay" won't even begin to cover it. Remember when Kirk yelled "KHAN!!!"? Khan didn't need the communicator; he could hear him. It'll be something like that.
Blood Magic (RELEASED) - NW-DUU2P7HCO
Children of the Fey (RELEASED) - NW-DKSSAPFPF
Buried Under Blacklake (WIP) - NW-DEDV2PAEP
The Redcap Rebels (WIP) - NW-DO23AFHFH
My Foundry playthrough channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/Ruskaga/featured
It's starting to look like your hoping to kill Neverwinter since you might be close to the launch of your other game. Hoping that players will switch over. Sorry but I don't see that happening for me anyways since if you do that to one game you will do it to another.
This makes me sad since I have been on Neverwinter since almost the start of it. Stayed with it because of the combat and gameplay that i enjoyed. I enjoyed working to make my char stronger and stronger while helping others when I could. Now I'm not sure what the point of playing the game is since the only place you don't get scaled is undermountain.
This has the same feeling as give every kid a trophy even if they don't put any work into getting it.
stealth is damage
stealth is mobility
stealth is everything
everything is stealth
Stealth make TR OP, but lack of stealth make TR useless.
@noworries#8859 @mimicking#6533 @nitocris83
Please read Silv3ry's comment again.
Coming from a calm, positive, highly respected, pro-NW veteran player and preview tester.
She's one of your biggest fans and a major promoter of the game.
Sil is the opposite of a troll, always trying to find something positive in the game.
Sil is the peaceful Dali Lahma of NW.
If you don't trust anyone else here, surely you can trust her.
Yet even Sil is telling you, without equivocation, that "this is a mistake".
How many red flags do you need?
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
Yeah right.
"... we receive more specific feedback."
The community is already telling you the "specifics" but you ignore.
If the scaling is because of this new challenge campaign thing, drop it.
This will have direct adverse affects on guilds that are still leveling up. Donations will slow.
where can i find down vote on this threads ??? oh yes there is no down vote
now if u guys (all devs of cryptic) think downscaling is good so what's the point i been grinding, spent billion ADs, grinding gear, getting Masterwork gear, getting runestones to R13 (many players reached 14) spending over 3 years playing this game and me and other veteran player got this ????
are u guys want to remove all the veteran player and let the new player learn by their own ????
is this about New player ??? u know that veteran player also helping u getting new player ?????
now my special question have u actually know about this game ??? 3 years i been getting worst part of the game M6 exodus Storm king thunder the most grinding campaign.
do u think we 15k-19k+ geared veteran player carrying a team is bad ??
now what if 10 new fresh player did codg didnt know the mechanic. are they able to finish the dungeon by their own ????
Im talking about veteran player need a love. stop keep talking about new player, u lose ur veteran player Good Luck maintaining the game with nobody have the knowledge of the game,
But on top of the fact I don't like scaling, I'm being treated to comments like scaling is in a good place. It isn't every single player who has been on preview can and has on this forum given you very specific feedback about just how badly broken scaling currently is. Then we get comments from @noworries#8859 telling us scaling isn't broken and all level 70 zones will scale to varying levels of difficulty as Barovia will scale enchants to level 9 other lower. Level 9 really!! So a developer for this game firstly doesn't understand that level 9 enchants are stupidly easy to get, so why pick such a low level for what is currently the hardest level 70 content. Secondly doesn't appear to realise that any new level 70 can go to Barovia pick up those level 9 enchants and then go back to older content thus rendering the difference between a brand new level 70 and a BIS level 80 in any level 70 content immaterial.
I could never bring myself to believe the Devs didn't really play the game before, but with these comments from @noworries#8859 i now can't believe they have ever spent any real time in the game, as it would not be possible to be so wrong on a subject if they had. I was upset with the changes before, the arrogance and ignorance of these replies have infuriated me.
Sadly for me my mind is already made up, after years in the game and £000's spent leveling up 8 toons to all be able to complete any content, i've already made up my mind to walk away, aside from maybe key collecting on the off chance the game improves. Its only been 2 weeks since i stopped logging in so far, but i have no plans to return when Mod 16 actually drops. For those of you that choose to stay, firstly good luck - but can i also suggest you all boycott the game for say 1 month just to get the message across that both the current level of communication and the belief they can just ride roughshod over player opinion isn't acceptable. Best of luck to you all, I hope things improve quickly.
Scaling
Scaling players down has traditionally not truly changed a players ability compared to the content they were scaled to. Along with our fixes to item level, we added in item level scaling which should provide a better version of scaling going forward.
Now we will scale a player down to a target item level. This won’t be exact as it will scale different items to different values (Enchantments will have a different scaled item level than equipment due to their different magnitudes) and because of this a player can end up a bit above or a bit below the target value. But overall it should bring the players closer to each other and closer to the content.
This does mean that players who are put in lower difficulty dungeons will find more challenge than in the past, but that challenge will still be less than an endgame dungeon would be.
This system was designed so that it will be easy to tune to make sure that we can end up with ideal scaling moving forward. We look forward to players getting to experience this new scaling, along with the new item level accuracy, we look forward to your feedback as this gets to preview.
I remember reading this and thinking, "Well, that's OK... a bit more challenge in old content... that's fine."
I didn't think that scaling meant trying to force players to be no better than an average competitor in a previously completed zone/content.
Cos... why the Hell would anyone want to do that?
That's not rhetorical... seriously... WHY?
Going back to that very first line...
"Scaling players down has traditionally not truly changed a players ability compared to the content they were scaled to."
I have to ask,
"So what?"
Why is it suddenly so important that a player not be able to kick the rump of old content?
Is there anyone who thinks that scaling should be "Complete drag back to basics" rather than a sort of "Safety nerf" just to give the lower level players a chance to keep up?
By all means make it a bit tougher, in fact please DO!
But why the need to drag people kicking and screaming back to a point where they are WORSE than they were when they did the content initially?
THAT isn't "Scaling".
That's just silly!
I don't know if there is even time to fix it before today's patch or next week's LIVE launch...
But anything that brings the entire community together in agreement that it's not just broken but a real, proper, major problem, that you believe is in "a good place" should give you pause to stop and think that maybe it needs looking at again... you know one last time... just to be sure.
This isn't a group of people angry that they're losing Astral Diamond farm, or aggrieved at Bonding nerfs.
This is pretty much EVERYONE, saying that Scaling, as it sits right now, is very, badly broken!
Norbir Hammerblow@Oathbound Paladin Level 70
Lemme put another easy example for you to understand in the form of incentives, imagine being paid 10 bucks to do a normal job, and as time passes, u get better and better at the job. the job gets more complex as time goes, but u still adapt and better it. how would u feel if at that point u are still being paid 10 bucks? definitely not happy, i can 1000% assure u that.
This scaling issue is a real big problem across many aspects of the game.
First, I am upset by this. I am by no means a BiS player. I don't have many rank 14 enchants, have 4 legendary companions.
And had to grind and farm Chult and Barovia for a long while to get the right gear, for two loadouts.
Spent a month, even with the better gear to finish the last 2 boons from SKT. Queued up for Tiamat a whole weekend to get enough Linu favors to finish the ToD/WoD boons.
My main, a warlock, who I have been playing since the release of the class, just managed to get to 16k iLevel within the last 2 months for both of her loadouts. Because, the class was in such a bad place for so long, I was forced to do a temptation build just to beg into ToNG parties. And you want to know something, I was so proud of myself for finally getting to that point, I felt that it a sort of coming out for my character.
I thought to myself, I can finally get into the current end-game dungeons.
I spent a lot of time, watching you-tube videos and reading guides on how to master the push/pull in CoDG, that now I can do it without falling off the platform anymore. And I was able to teach other people how to do it.
I spent a whole weekend watching videos on Castle Ravenloft. Learning the mechanics. Where I got down on how to use the tome in the Sisters battle, and I got pretty good at it. And the first time I was able to finish Castle Ravenloft, it felt so good and again so proud of myself. All that work paid off. All that grinding paid off. I felt that I really understood this game, and I WAS HAVING FUN.
I spent months, in time and energy, ADs and other resources, not to mention real money, to get this character to this point, all the while being the guild leader to a very small guild that lost most of my members. Luckily I joined an Alliance with a bunch of really awesome people. We help each other, both built up players, and the new players.
We would run dungeons with the newer players, to help them learn the mechanics, run them through Barovia hunts for gear. Chult/Omu hunts for gear. And.. we had fun doing it.
Me and few others from my Alliance toiled a lot to get Omuian hunt lures and managed to make a few Tyrant hunt lures so our newer players can experience it, and get some cool stuff, and also be able to say that they were able to do it.
This scaling business is going to be a disaster. Not just for end-game players, but mid-game players like myself, and new players.
If this scaling is working as intended, the end-game players are going to refuse to do low level content. Finish up any level 80 content and move on.
If they refuse to do low level content or leave, who will be there to teach the mid and new players? Or be in queues to help the mid and new players complete queues?
If those mid and new players can't get people to fill up queues or not be able to beat dungeons, what will happen to them? They will leave too.
And what about Guilds and Alliances?
Players have been working to get their Stronghold built, or are still in the process of getting built, my guild is finally getting rank 3 structures to build a rank 7 guildhall. I was so happy when the fist boon structure was built. I put in months of time and effort to get those. As I stated earlier. I am the guild leader to a small guild that has lost its membership to the point where I'm the only active person left. Did it mostly on my own. Luckily I joined an Alliance that has some pretty awesome people in it and they helped when and where they could while still doing their own stronghold.
So now, with this scaling and I got to go into older content to run the Master of Coins quests, I'm going to have to work harder and spend more time to get shards. To the point that I feel that it is the only thing I can do during my gaming sessions.
Is that supposed to be fun? If all I'm doing is that, I can't run dungeons and we come back to the point of not filling up those again.
And if I decide to run dungeons, then my stronghold doesn't get updated, and all the previous work I put in was for nothing.
And what about Masterwork?
I finally got to the point where I can do this. Got my Forgehammer of Gond over the Winter Event.
And hit Masterwork professions running.
Prior to getting the hammer, I was dabbling in it.
But now, I got the incentive to do it more aggressively.
Been getting Explorer charts and going into the lower zones to farm resources. Which is time consuming, even on a legendary mount, to run to all the nodes. Well at least I don't have to worry about the critters in the zone because I'm way higher level than them.
Ooops, here comes scaling... now what, I'm the same?
So now, not only do have have to go to all those nodes, but.. i have to avoid or fight mobs?
Isn't that just another layer of annoyance that I have to do? Just another layer of time wasting?
I beat Hotennow, Vellosk, Whispering Caverns, why should I have to endure it again?
It's a shame really.
I have been on preview, and playing the new content. Kudos to the graphics team because the new Undermountain areas look amazing! Well worth the wait for this part of the Forgotten Realms to come to the game.
But, if I'm going to penalized, or hamstrung because I put in a lot of time and effort to make my character better, than what point is there going to lower areas? What point is there to do anything but the level 80 content? Sure make it a little more challenging than allowing me to one-shot mobs, but do not make it so that all that effort I put in, as many others did, does not count for anything?
I have been in Neverwinter since about mod 4. I have played almost exclusively Neverwinter, with the occasional popping into Star Trek online, which by the way I was playing at launch of that. So I have been a Cryptic player for nearly what 15 years?
I still remember when Cryptic was owned by Atari, and the turmoil that happened when Atari put you up for sale. The long drought of content and stuff that happened while Cryptic waited for a buyer.
This is by far, the worse decision I have seen come out of Cryptic. Forcing players who spent a lot and supported the game for a long time, to basically telling them that what they did previously doesn't matter anymore.
I got to say one thing positive, about this. And a few others have stated it already...
In all my time as a Cryptic player, I do believe that this is the first time between STO and NW that I have seen the community agree on a topic in unison.
Or maybe I have just been teleported in some alternative reality.
Sorry, cannot take this seriously.
Good luck to Cryptic to find your way back to reality.
Chances are not good. You are not even trying.