That is a true and rather frustrating statement, if you are not willing (or able) to spend real money.
Fact is, a large backlog and a long wait time for AD->ZEN conversion is rather obviously an incentive to buy ZEN from real money... Sorry, guys, its really a lost cause. A waste of effort if you really think you can convince the company that runs the game to kick itself into the butt.
I agree, but still, the state of the exchange does show that there's something really wrong, and it exposes some of the deep flaws in the game design.
I think a lot of good suggestions have been made by players in this thread and others, most notably imo: - developing more desirable items for the market - moving certain things like wards solely to the Bazaar, account locking them and jacking up their price in AD - adjusting the real money cost of zen to make it more attractive - updating things that have become obsolete - designing things so they can't become obsolete in the first place
Making the exchange healthier and encouraging players to purchase zen don't have to be mutually exclusive.
1. Shut down ZEN Ex for month. 2. Make an announcement - ppl must spend all AD they have... or it will be vanished.
3. After month - copy/paste ZEN Ex system from Star Trek online (or Champions online) to Neverwinter... Those 2 Cryptic games have very healthy ZEN Ex market for many years.
A key issue is that ages ago, Neverwinter had problems/bugs/exploits that pumped ridiculous amounts of AD into the economy. Since that time, high-end characters continue to earn/grind AD at a rate that exceeds what they 'need' for their characters, and so the surplus of AD in the system never goes away.
Most of the AD trading that goes on is player-to-player, so the AD doesn't get 'spent/disappeared', it just changes hands minus the AH fee. Which is easily earned back by AD earning activities.
Capping accounts at 100k refine daily was a step in the right direction. 100k is still a lot of AD to add daily though (when multiplied by all accounts).
Neverwinter needs an actual 'AD sink' that would yank tons of AD out of the system entirely. Not player-player trades, but Player-NPC/store spending.
It was suggested that Neverwinter implement something like STO's 'Phoenix Box'. An RNG box that you spend AD on, the AD is gone forever from the system, and you get something out of the box. The trick would be 'what to put in the box that will be good for players (so they spend AD on it) and not too bad for Cryptic (so they don't suffer worse consequences than leaving the AD in the system)?".
Currently they are slapping in a new mod, where feedback in and out of the game says approx. 15% of people like it; 25% like some parts of it, don't like others; 30% don't like most of it but think it's got a few nice parts; and 30% pretty much hate it. So now might be a good time to take some short term 'market losses' and add in some AD exchange sinks and see if they encourage player participation at a time when many players might feel like walking away.
There is no way in heck Cryptic is getting any real $$ from me when they are prepared to dump on players like they are in Mod 16. And I know quite a lot of players saying the same. However, I could probably be enticed to blow some AD on things like:
- A 'Phoenix Box' with an RNG chance to drop Epic, Ultra Rare, Very Rare, Rare, Uncommon tokens. Those tokens could be exchanged for things like: - Epic - Legendary mounts or companions, an RNG crate that drops a variety of very desirable artifacts/armor/weapons - Ultra Rare - Epic mount/companion, 1 level down of RNG crate that drops a lower quality set of artifact/armor/weapons - Very Rare - Tradeable for various Refinement items, gems, stones, some Rare/Mounts/Companions - Rare - tradeable for some high-powered stat or heal/regen potions, consumables that will help people complete the slower/tougher content (scaled content they used to zoom through etc), maybe companion items - Uncommon - Tradeable for various lower refinement items, since we'll all need a bunch.
Like the STO Phoenix Box, a token could be exchanged for 2 of the next token down. Unlike Phoenix, it should have 5 tokens exchangeable for the next level of token up. That means everybody is encouraged to open lots and lots of boxes, while still feeling they are getting value out of every one.
I would go a bit further, and put in a vendor for at least a couple months, that: - Exchanges AD for Companion Upgrade tokens at a reasonable rate (they are unilaterally scrambling our entire companion base, it won't hurt to at least let us drain AD out of the economy while shifting to our new companion sets) - Sells Mount Insignia for a reasonable amount of AD (because we'll need to grind those now too) - Sells Runestones for a reasonable amount of AD (because those have had limited sources in the game)
This wouldn't need to be permanent, but should last at least 3 months to take some of the 'transition sting' out of the game while we all try to come to terms with Mod 16 - at least, those who stay to try. After that, Cryptic could evaluate how much AD it sucked out of the system and see if it should remain in some/any form, or something else implemented.
A key issue is that ages ago, Neverwinter had problems/bugs/exploits that pumped ridiculous amounts of AD into the economy. Since that time, high-end characters continue to earn/grind AD at a rate that exceeds what they 'need' for their characters, and so the surplus of AD in the system never goes away.
I think it is unlikely that a big AD insertion some years ago has a significant effect on the economy now. Most of the people that benefited from those bugs back then have probably left game, or they are so well geared that they just sit on their AD anyways
The problem more likely is that the daily amount of AD produced far exceeds the amount of AD consumed. 'Consumed' in the sense of leaving the economy from AH tax, AD item purchases or people leaving game.
We need something worthwhile to throw AD at that can/must be purchased repeatedly so AD consumption increases. It must be worthwhile enough that people actually buy it, yet not give an advantage that is so big that it upsets game power balance and makes the rich too powerful.
One suggestion would be to make Scroll of Mass Resurrection available from AD store rather than tradebar store.. a significant advantage yet not a permanent one(tradebars will have other uses anyways). Similarily a small dps/defense boost(beyond the existing potions) could be made available for AD.
> I think it is unlikely that a big AD insertion some years ago has a significant effect on the economy now.
No! AD is making by prayer bots right here right now ! Go to russian server and see how 3 nicknames selling 100+ 14 lvl stones by 1.2kk when one catalist price is 800k!
1
greywyndMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 7,153Arc User
So make some and start undercutting to lower the price.
I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
> @greywynd said: > So make some and start undercutting to lower the price.
you dont undrestand what iam talking about, you cant do lower price! because they do thousand and thousand catalist every day, the cost does not include the cost of the catalyst, thats why one catal price is 800 k but to make one 14lvl stone you need one blue catal + lot of green catal + other resources and that is not 1.2kk. And if you try to make lower price they make it lower and lower, just think about it! they make hundred 14 lvl stones every day!
PS i wana say that 4-5 people use this bots, and this 4-5 people is 90% of stone market in this game!
However; I have suggested that they raise the cap from 500 to 2000. But players who don't understand economy think this would ruin the economy. It wouldn't because players are already getting their AD worth of Zen by selling those pack items.
It would ruin the economy because there are players in this game who holds hundreds of millions AD in their accounts. You may not hoard Zen from 2000AD but they can do that pretty easily. Then what happens next? Ward prices, lockbox drops(legendary mounts, profession tools, insignia prices(I know it will change in mod16) will skyrocket, next will be enchantments because you need wards for them too. So there will be p2w characters who will get anything they want and there will be f2p characters will need to farm months maybe a year just to get a BIS enchantment.
And we all know that most p2w players dont like to play with only other p2w players(That is how PVP died, how SH PVP ended up as a stillborn)
A key issue is that ages ago, Neverwinter had problems/bugs/exploits that pumped ridiculous amounts of AD into the economy. Since that time, high-end characters continue to earn/grind AD at a rate that exceeds what they 'need' for their characters, and so the surplus of AD in the system never goes away.
I think it is unlikely that a big AD insertion some years ago has a significant effect on the economy now. Most of the people that benefited from those bugs back then have probably left game, or they are so well geared that they just sit on their AD anyways
The problem more likely is that the daily amount of AD produced far exceeds the amount of AD consumed. 'Consumed' in the sense of leaving the economy from AH tax, AD item purchases or people leaving game.
We need something worthwhile to throw AD at that can/must be purchased repeatedly so AD consumption increases. It must be worthwhile enough that people actually buy it, yet not give an advantage that is so big that it upsets game power balance and makes the rich too powerful.
One suggestion would be to make Scroll of Mass Resurrection available from AD store rather than tradebar store.. a significant advantage yet not a permanent one(tradebars will have other uses anyways). Similarily a small dps/defense boost(beyond the existing potions) could be made available for AD.
You are assuming that all the AD (we are talking literally billions of AD here) just sat on characters who then left the game. In fact, those characters rapidly spread their AD out into the economy and onto alts so that when the inevitable exploit bans hit they still had massive AD fortunes. And they continued to spend that, which doesn't make it go away, it just recirculates it to other players. Even spending it on the ZAdex just recirculates it to other players.
However, yes, the key issue, regardless of where AD comes/came from, is taking it out of the game. This can only be done with consumables, with NPC vendors giving items of value to characters for AD, with items like a Phoenix box that players choose to drop AD on.
Cryptic really needs to take the opportunity of major changes in Mod 16, which many players dislike, to 'give something back' and offer some decent, AD-purchaseable value that will increase the value proposition of Mod 16 and decrease the 'ripping us off and giving us another spend/grind cycle in return' factor.
(To the 'not another RNG box!' guy... the Phoenix box is one of the most popular items in STO and the Phoenix events are looked forward to, because unlike other RNGs the RNG is only in the token it drops. What you spend the token on is your choice, from a store... and the options/value available in the store is quite good.)
1. Cryptic hasn't ever offered to stop allowing their zen items to sell in the auction house it has only been players that have recommended that as a solution.
Not true. They did and the item is lockbox key.
The lockbox keys were made untradeable since they were developing as a trade currency next to AD, bypassing the 10% AD tax on AH.
That does not change the fact that there is at least one zen item was stopped to be sold in the auction house. If you wanted AD (better yield than Zax), you could put lockbox key to AH just like wards today. If you want to trade ward today, the game mechanism allows you too.
*** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
2. Make an announcement - ppl must spend all AD they have... or it will be vanished.
Silliest idea I have ever heard. You don't think players will just bind their AD up in the AH? So the net result is nothing. The only thing you would achieve are the players who didn't look for a work around and those players who quit playing for a while while this was taking place. But those actively playing who think through issues would easily find a way to preserve their AD wealth. It would solve NOTHING by doing this.
Not true. You would get rid of at least 25% of the playerbase
2
darthpotaterMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,261Arc User
Some good ideas here, and the ZEN items -> AH -> ZAX loop must be stopped.
But there is something we didnt talk about: Give more zen per $$. That alone wouldnt stop the problem but is something to think about.
The prize of zen items in this game is really high. You can make much more AD with your brain than with your credit card. And I am not a spender but something must be done.
Increasing the ZAX is a bad option, lots of players will left and new players will have a shock when they go to AH and see the prizes.
Why not just advocate giving more items "Overload" slots, then making the Glyphs account bind and only buyable on the Wonder Bazaar. Seems like a good use for crafted items, and a good way to dump AD. Especially now that certain mods are getting removed, those removed mods could be put back in with the limited timer glyphs.
0
plasticbatMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 12,417Arc User
Why not just advocate giving more items "Overload" slots, then making the Glyphs account bind and only buyable on the Wonder Bazaar. Seems like a good use for crafted items, and a good way to dump AD. Especially now that certain mods are getting removed, those removed mods could be put back in with the limited timer glyphs.
Nooo! At least not before changing "putting stuff into overload slot makes the gear character bound".
*** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
0
minotaur2857Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,141Arc User
Price cap items on the AH that can be bought from the Zen store to say 830x the Zen cost, up the max exchange rate to 800. This takes the profit out of churning Zen store items, you can make a tiny amount IF you barter what you buy, but you do better simply putting Zen on the ZAX than buying stuff in the zen store at 40% discount and selling it if the rate stays at 800.
I'm still waiting on Zen from 12 Feb, so the current situation is ridiculous, I'm gone if it doesn't come through before my VIP ends on 24th April.
Price cap items on the AH that can be bought from the Zen store to say 830x the Zen cost, up the max exchange rate to 800. This takes the profit out of churning Zen store items, you can make a tiny amount IF you barter what you buy, but you do better simply putting Zen on the ZAX than buying stuff in the zen store at 40% discount and selling it if the rate stays at 800.
I'm still waiting on Zen from 12 Feb, so the current situation is ridiculous, I'm gone if it doesn't come through before my VIP ends on 24th April.
Oh great another person who thinks price fixing is the way to solve economic issues. Terrible idea. If you remove the incentive to buy zen items to begin with then players will stop buying zen or the items. You can't price fix and then assume players will still go through with that arrangement.
The REASON why they use the AH to make AD off their zen purchase is because its profitable. It is giving them the value of what zen is worth. If you start price fixing, players will lose the incentive to go through the entire process. Whats the point in buying zen and buying backs if you are stuck making a price fixed amount of AD off those items? You wouldn't.
As soon as you start price fixing you immediately remove the incentive to buy zen. This is the whole reason ZAX isn't moving. There is zero incentive for players to get less ad than the zen is worth. The ONLY way to fix the ZAX is to raise the cap.
The thing is, I am certain now that Cryptic doesn't care that the ZAX doesn't trade and they don't care if the backlog got to 2 trillion ad. They are not concerned about the ZAX.
The other silly arguments here about not raising the cap totally miss the point that the system isn't even working. At this point it is almost equal to not even having a ZAX because no trading is happening, it might as well not even exist.
1
minotaur2857Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,141Arc User
Price cap items on the AH that can be bought from the Zen store to say 830x the Zen cost, up the max exchange rate to 800. This takes the profit out of churning Zen store items, you can make a tiny amount IF you barter what you buy, but you do better simply putting Zen on the ZAX than buying stuff in the zen store at 40% discount and selling it if the rate stays at 800.
I'm still waiting on Zen from 12 Feb, so the current situation is ridiculous, I'm gone if it doesn't come through before my VIP ends on 24th April.
Oh great another person who thinks price fixing is the way to solve economic issues. Terrible idea. If you remove the incentive to buy zen items to begin with then players will stop buying zen or the items. You can't price fix and then assume players will still go through with that arrangement.
The REASON why they use the AH to make AD off their zen purchase is because its profitable. It is giving them the value of what zen is worth. If you start price fixing, players will lose the incentive to go through the entire process. Whats the point in buying zen and buying backs if you are stuck making a price fixed amount of AD off those items? You wouldn't.
As soon as you start price fixing you immediately remove the incentive to buy zen. This is the whole reason ZAX isn't moving. There is zero incentive for players to get less ad than the zen is worth. The ONLY way to fix the ZAX is to raise the cap.
The thing is, I am certain now that Cryptic doesn't care that the ZAX doesn't trade and they don't care if the backlog got to 2 trillion ad. They are not concerned about the ZAX.
The other silly arguments here about not raising the cap totally miss the point that the system isn't even working. At this point it is almost equal to not even having a ZAX because no trading is happening, it might as well not even exist.
No you don't, the people who are buying zen with $ are NOT the people who churn through the cycle that causes the problem with the ZAX. They are the cash rich time poor weekend warriors in the main.
If you buy zen with $ and sell your booty for ADs, you make the same as you make now, that's why I set the number at 830. What you can't do is sell your Zen bought stuff for ADs, buy Zen with the proceeds and repeat the process to any great effect. If you don't price fix, the rate goes up to 833/0.6 as people have pointed out and you don't fix the issue (plus you're utterly screwed if another exploit occurs).
Comments
I think a lot of good suggestions have been made by players in this thread and others, most notably imo:
- developing more desirable items for the market
- moving certain things like wards solely to the Bazaar, account locking them and jacking up their price in AD
- adjusting the real money cost of zen to make it more attractive
- updating things that have become obsolete
- designing things so they can't become obsolete in the first place
Making the exchange healthier and encouraging players to purchase zen don't have to be mutually exclusive.
2. Make an announcement - ppl must spend all AD they have... or it will be vanished.
3. After month - copy/paste ZEN Ex system from Star Trek online (or Champions online) to Neverwinter...
Those 2 Cryptic games have very healthy ZEN Ex market for many years.
Most of the AD trading that goes on is player-to-player, so the AD doesn't get 'spent/disappeared', it just changes hands minus the AH fee. Which is easily earned back by AD earning activities.
Capping accounts at 100k refine daily was a step in the right direction. 100k is still a lot of AD to add daily though (when multiplied by all accounts).
Neverwinter needs an actual 'AD sink' that would yank tons of AD out of the system entirely. Not player-player trades, but Player-NPC/store spending.
It was suggested that Neverwinter implement something like STO's 'Phoenix Box'. An RNG box that you spend AD on, the AD is gone forever from the system, and you get something out of the box. The trick would be 'what to put in the box that will be good for players (so they spend AD on it) and not too bad for Cryptic (so they don't suffer worse consequences than leaving the AD in the system)?".
Currently they are slapping in a new mod, where feedback in and out of the game says approx. 15% of people like it; 25% like some parts of it, don't like others; 30% don't like most of it but think it's got a few nice parts; and 30% pretty much hate it. So now might be a good time to take some short term 'market losses' and add in some AD exchange sinks and see if they encourage player participation at a time when many players might feel like walking away.
There is no way in heck Cryptic is getting any real $$ from me when they are prepared to dump on players like they are in Mod 16. And I know quite a lot of players saying the same. However, I could probably be enticed to blow some AD on things like:
- A 'Phoenix Box' with an RNG chance to drop Epic, Ultra Rare, Very Rare, Rare, Uncommon tokens. Those tokens could be exchanged for things like:
- Epic - Legendary mounts or companions, an RNG crate that drops a variety of very desirable artifacts/armor/weapons
- Ultra Rare - Epic mount/companion, 1 level down of RNG crate that drops a lower quality set of artifact/armor/weapons
- Very Rare - Tradeable for various Refinement items, gems, stones, some Rare/Mounts/Companions
- Rare - tradeable for some high-powered stat or heal/regen potions, consumables that will help people complete the slower/tougher content (scaled content they used to zoom through etc), maybe companion items
- Uncommon - Tradeable for various lower refinement items, since we'll all need a bunch.
Like the STO Phoenix Box, a token could be exchanged for 2 of the next token down. Unlike Phoenix, it should have 5 tokens exchangeable for the next level of token up. That means everybody is encouraged to open lots and lots of boxes, while still feeling they are getting value out of every one.
I would go a bit further, and put in a vendor for at least a couple months, that:
- Exchanges AD for Companion Upgrade tokens at a reasonable rate (they are unilaterally scrambling our entire companion base, it won't hurt to at least let us drain AD out of the economy while shifting to our new companion sets)
- Sells Mount Insignia for a reasonable amount of AD (because we'll need to grind those now too)
- Sells Runestones for a reasonable amount of AD (because those have had limited sources in the game)
This wouldn't need to be permanent, but should last at least 3 months to take some of the 'transition sting' out of the game while we all try to come to terms with Mod 16 - at least, those who stay to try. After that, Cryptic could evaluate how much AD it sucked out of the system and see if it should remain in some/any form, or something else implemented.
The problem more likely is that the daily amount of AD produced far exceeds the amount of AD consumed. 'Consumed' in the sense of leaving the economy from AH tax, AD item purchases or people leaving game.
We need something worthwhile to throw AD at that can/must be purchased repeatedly so AD consumption increases. It must be worthwhile enough that people actually buy it, yet not give an advantage that is so big that it upsets game power balance and makes the rich too powerful.
One suggestion would be to make Scroll of Mass Resurrection available from AD store rather than tradebar store.. a significant advantage yet not a permanent one(tradebars will have other uses anyways). Similarily a small dps/defense boost(beyond the existing potions) could be made available for AD.
> I think it is unlikely that a big AD insertion some years ago has a significant effect on the economy now.
No! AD is making by prayer bots right here right now ! Go to russian server and see how 3 nicknames selling 100+ 14 lvl stones by 1.2kk when one catalist price is 800k!
> So make some and start undercutting to lower the price.
you dont undrestand what iam talking about, you cant do lower price! because they do thousand and thousand catalist every day, the cost does not include the cost of the catalyst, thats why one catal price is 800 k but to make one 14lvl stone you need one blue catal + lot of green catal + other resources and that is not 1.2kk.
And if you try to make lower price they make it lower and lower, just think about it! they make hundred 14 lvl stones every day!
PS i wana say that 4-5 people use this bots, and this 4-5 people is 90% of stone market in this game!
It would ruin the economy because there are players in this game who holds hundreds of millions AD in their accounts. You may not hoard Zen from 2000AD but they can do that pretty easily. Then what happens next? Ward prices, lockbox drops(legendary mounts, profession tools, insignia prices(I know it will change in mod16) will skyrocket, next will be enchantments because you need wards for them too. So there will be p2w characters who will get anything they want and there will be f2p characters will need to farm months maybe a year just to get a BIS enchantment.
And we all know that most p2w players dont like to play with only other p2w players(That is how PVP died, how SH PVP ended up as a stillborn)
You are assuming that all the AD (we are talking literally billions of AD here) just sat on characters who then left the game. In fact, those characters rapidly spread their AD out into the economy and onto alts so that when the inevitable exploit bans hit they still had massive AD fortunes. And they continued to spend that, which doesn't make it go away, it just recirculates it to other players. Even spending it on the ZAdex just recirculates it to other players.
However, yes, the key issue, regardless of where AD comes/came from, is taking it out of the game. This can only be done with consumables, with NPC vendors giving items of value to characters for AD, with items like a Phoenix box that players choose to drop AD on.
Cryptic really needs to take the opportunity of major changes in Mod 16, which many players dislike, to 'give something back' and offer some decent, AD-purchaseable value that will increase the value proposition of Mod 16 and decrease the 'ripping us off and giving us another spend/grind cycle in return' factor.
(To the 'not another RNG box!' guy... the Phoenix box is one of the most popular items in STO and the Phoenix events are looked forward to, because unlike other RNGs the RNG is only in the token it drops. What you spend the token on is your choice, from a store... and the options/value available in the store is quite good.)
But there is something we didnt talk about: Give more zen per $$. That alone wouldnt stop the problem but is something to think about.
The prize of zen items in this game is really high. You can make much more AD with your brain than with your credit card. And I am not a spender but something must be done.
Increasing the ZAX is a bad option, lots of players will left and new players will have a shock when they go to AH and see the prizes.
Caturday Survivor
Elemental Evil Survivor
Undermontain Survivor
Mod20 Combat rework Survivor
Mod22 Refinement rework Survivor
I'm still waiting on Zen from 12 Feb, so the current situation is ridiculous, I'm gone if it doesn't come through before my VIP ends on 24th April.
The REASON why they use the AH to make AD off their zen purchase is because its profitable. It is giving them the value of what zen is worth. If you start price fixing, players will lose the incentive to go through the entire process. Whats the point in buying zen and buying backs if you are stuck making a price fixed amount of AD off those items? You wouldn't.
As soon as you start price fixing you immediately remove the incentive to buy zen. This is the whole reason ZAX isn't moving. There is zero incentive for players to get less ad than the zen is worth. The ONLY way to fix the ZAX is to raise the cap.
The thing is, I am certain now that Cryptic doesn't care that the ZAX doesn't trade and they don't care if the backlog got to 2 trillion ad. They are not concerned about the ZAX.
The other silly arguments here about not raising the cap totally miss the point that the system isn't even working. At this point it is almost equal to not even having a ZAX because no trading is happening, it might as well not even exist.
If you buy zen with $ and sell your booty for ADs, you make the same as you make now, that's why I set the number at 830. What you can't do is sell your Zen bought stuff for ADs, buy Zen with the proceeds and repeat the process to any great effect. If you don't price fix, the rate goes up to 833/0.6 as people have pointed out and you don't fix the issue (plus you're utterly screwed if another exploit occurs).