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Is The Zen Exchange (ZAX) Going From bad to worse?

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  • minotaur2857minotaur2857 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,138 Arc User

    @wemery
    This would solve nothing. If you remember, we have had a short 40% off 3 weeks ago and since that time the exchange have growns another 10mil Zen backlog. As long the Zen market offers better deals as exchange for AD, this will becomes worse. Honestly, i can't see the developers giving a Hamster about this issue for the f2p part of this game over the past 2 years. You have to pay the fee the free market want you pay or deal with the demand to be able to get the Zen stuff you want. Could be worse, if they get rid of the 500:1 cap. This would drive the whole f2p model and the grind ad absurdum.

    The 40% offs are essential but cause this problem.

    People buy stuff at 40% off. They then sell at 1:500 ish equivalent, they get 500/0.6 = 833 value for their zen hence my comment above. Either they sell on the AH, take a 10% hit and get 750 in value or they trade the goodies and get full value.

    Setting the exchange cap to somewhere in the 750-850 range would be sensible.
  • greywyndgreywynd Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,840 Arc User
    Push the cap up and the prices will follow.
    Better to be a white knight than a knight with no honor.

    With your shield or on it.
  • malheur2080malheur2080 Member Posts: 143 Arc User

    @wemery
    This would solve nothing. If you remember, we have had a short 40% off 3 weeks ago and since that time the exchange have growns another 10mil Zen backlog. As long the Zen market offers better deals as exchange for AD, this will becomes worse. Honestly, i can't see the developers giving a Hamster about this issue for the f2p part of this game over the past 2 years. You have to pay the fee the free market want you pay or deal with the demand to be able to get the Zen stuff you want. Could be worse, if they get rid of the 500:1 cap. This would drive the whole f2p model and the grind ad absurdum.

    The 40% offs are essential but cause this problem.

    People buy stuff at 40% off. They then sell at 1:500 ish equivalent, they get 500/0.6 = 833 value for their zen hence my comment above. Either they sell on the AH, take a 10% hit and get 750 in value or they trade the goodies and get full value.

    Setting the exchange cap to somewhere in the 750-850 range would be sensible.
    You understand, what you are asking for? Next Modul is going to double, if not tripple the grind and at the same time your solution for zax is to raise the cap another 50%? I really don't get it, why the f2p have to go in this game and this playerbase need some resellers for the same things they could buy, if the zax would work how it was intended, directly from zen store.
    Why do they always let the same playerbase pay the fee through grinding more and more to cover this behaviour.
  • adinosiiadinosii Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,065 Arc User
    edited April 2019


    The 40% offs are essential but cause this problem.

    People buy stuff at 40% off. They then sell at 1:500 ish equivalent, they get 500/0.6 = 833 value for their zen hence my comment above. Either they sell on the AH, take a 10% hit and get 750 in value or they trade the goodies and get full value.

    Setting the exchange cap to somewhere in the 750-850 range would be sensible.

    You are correct that the discounts are a part of the problem, as they basically establish the "true" value of Zen.

    Increasing the exchange cap would not fix anything, as the "true" value would just jump higher.

    There is several ways to fix the problem, but they all have flaws. One method would be to change things so that items bought during Zen store sales BtA. but items bought at full price are unbound. This would mean that anyone could by items for own use at discount, but not to sell to others. The problem with this is that it would discourage people from buying Zen with $$$ as the profits would decrease.

    Another fix would be to change things so that items bought with Zen converted from AD are BtA, but items bought with Zen bought for $$$ would be unbound. This would unfortunately be somewhat complicated to implement.

    Make NWO great again, please....
  • flippy#8481 flippy Member Posts: 198 Arc User

    @wemery
    This would solve nothing. If you remember, we have had a short 40% off 3 weeks ago and since that time the exchange have growns another 10mil Zen backlog. As long the Zen market offers better deals as exchange for AD, this will becomes worse. Honestly, i can't see the developers giving a Hamster about this issue for the f2p part of this game over the past 2 years. You have to pay the fee the free market want you pay or deal with the demand to be able to get the Zen stuff you want. Could be worse, if they get rid of the 500:1 cap. This would drive the whole f2p model and the grind ad absurdum.

    The 40% offs are essential but cause this problem.

    People buy stuff at 40% off. They then sell at 1:500 ish equivalent, they get 500/0.6 = 833 value for their zen hence my comment above. Either they sell on the AH, take a 10% hit and get 750 in value or they trade the goodies and get full value.

    Setting the exchange cap to somewhere in the 750-850 range would be sensible.
    but the issue would persist.

    your example of 40% off would still be valid at the new exchange point, necessitating yet another re-evaluation of the exchange.

    almost immediately the price of zen would skyrocket.

  • minotaur2857minotaur2857 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,138 Arc User
    The same routine would persist, but there is the same amount of ADs in the system, so the backlog will be smaller as it buys less zen. Presuming the same smallish proportion of people selling zen, after a few iterations, it will settle down.
  • adinosiiadinosii Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,065 Arc User

    The same routine would persist, but there is the same amount of ADs in the system, so the backlog will be smaller as it buys less zen. Presuming the same smallish proportion of people selling zen, after a few iterations, it will settle down.

    This has essentially the same advantages and drawbacks as removing the exchange cap altogether. The backlog would disappear, Zen would be too expensive for many F2P players and prices of things like high-rank enchants would skyrocket.

    From an economics point of view this is basically just turning "hidden" inflation into real inflation, instead of solving the problem that causes inflation in the first place.
    Make NWO great again, please....
  • malheur2080malheur2080 Member Posts: 143 Arc User
    I see only one way to solve this.
    Separating Zen from AD by creating more "must have" Items through spending AD in the wonderous bazar and at the same time making all Zen Items BtA.
    This would stop the loop and will bring AD sinks. Because everybody, who is only buying AD, have to go through the Exchange or have to grind for their daily AD. Atm every Account in the game is generating 2$ worth AD through RAD, if you are able reach the daily cap and this have been made very easy for most players, since the random queue bonus exists. On the other side the one, who skip the grind is able to pay 1.20$ to get same amount AD through the 40% sales. This imbalance is unstoppable as long you not going to fix both currencies, by adding much more grind, which how it seems we will get in next mod and closing all possibility to get AD through other ways beside the exchange. But as long it adds only on one side through Lockbox Items like enchantment stones, more grind for the same income, more things to upgrade like the insignias, i can't see this system ever becoming a fair transaction. It will only add up on one side till you have to be prepared 4 monthes before the next Module arrives or just skipping all upgrades except the new weapon set and new artifact set.
  • minotaur2857minotaur2857 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,138 Arc User
    adinosii said:

    The same routine would persist, but there is the same amount of ADs in the system, so the backlog will be smaller as it buys less zen. Presuming the same smallish proportion of people selling zen, after a few iterations, it will settle down.

    This has essentially the same advantages and drawbacks as removing the exchange cap altogether. The backlog would disappear, Zen would be too expensive for many F2P players and prices of things like high-rank enchants would skyrocket.

    From an economics point of view this is basically just turning "hidden" inflation into real inflation, instead of solving the problem that causes inflation in the first place.
    Eventually yes, but could be managed. In M16 I don't expect the cost of high rank enchants to rocket, because they're actually not as desirable as they used to be. Many people won't bother.
  • exgardianexgardian Member Posts: 207 Arc User
    I've posted in another topic something about this, and after thinking a little, here's my conclusion:

    No matter how many threads on that subject are created. Nothing is gonna change ATM. Maybe at module 17 ...

    I've suggested in another topic in Player Feedback area, some decent ways to decrease the ZAX (adding a npc that you can buy C-Ward and P-Ward ONLY, spending AD), but this is a double-edged sword: The ZAX will decrease, because more people will now spend ZEN to buy AD in ZAX instead, but in counterpart, people will inject less ZEN by real money to the game.

    Adding those items in Tarmalune shop like happened in the past ? No, because was a big failure.

    Increase the AD/ZEN ratio to 1000 ? No

    Limiting a player to buy ZEN in ZAX ? Maybe yes. A 5000 ZEN limit per month, per account ? Thoughs ?
    2fv72Fw.png
  • plasticbatplasticbat Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 7,582 Arc User
    exgardian said:

    I've posted in another topic something about this, and after thinking a little, here's my conclusion:

    No matter how many threads on that subject are created. Nothing is gonna change ATM. Maybe at module 17 ...

    I've suggested in another topic in Player Feedback area, some decent ways to decrease the ZAX (adding a npc that you can buy C-Ward and P-Ward ONLY, spending AD), but this is a double-edged sword: The ZAX will decrease, because more people will now spend ZEN to buy AD in ZAX instead, but in counterpart, people will inject less ZEN by real money to the game.

    Adding those items in Tarmalune shop like happened in the past ? No, because was a big failure.

    Increase the AD/ZEN ratio to 1000 ? No

    Limiting a player to buy ZEN in ZAX ? Maybe yes. A 5000 ZEN limit per month, per account ? Thoughs ?

    Setting up another AD shop may help but it will not have much impact to Zax. What will the price in this AD shop be? If it is the same, people will buy depends on which one has sale. Since in the normal day, there is Zen store coupon, the better choice will usually be the Zen store. When there is a AD store sale, it can help Zax a bit at that period.

    Most people will make sure they have enough fund for either currency. Since Zen is harder to get and need to wait, they will keep on lining up for Zen.

    If AD shop always has the lower price, nobody will buy from Zen store.

    Having ward in T-bar store was not a failure to the players. People loved it. It draw down the ward price in AH. It was so good to the player that Cryptic had to move it out with the excuse as "(new) policy does not allow to have the same item in 2 shops".

    I don't know if it is still the case, I believe in the past you could only allow to submit 2 Zax offers. When to submit and how big the offer should be was a calculated challenge in the past.
  • wintersmokewintersmoke Member Posts: 1,584 Arc User

    exgardian said:

    I've posted in another topic something about this, and after thinking a little, here's my conclusion:

    No matter how many threads on that subject are created. Nothing is gonna change ATM. Maybe at module 17 ...

    I've suggested in another topic in Player Feedback area, some decent ways to decrease the ZAX (adding a npc that you can buy C-Ward and P-Ward ONLY, spending AD), but this is a double-edged sword: The ZAX will decrease, because more people will now spend ZEN to buy AD in ZAX instead, but in counterpart, people will inject less ZEN by real money to the game.

    Adding those items in Tarmalune shop like happened in the past ? No, because was a big failure.

    Increase the AD/ZEN ratio to 1000 ? No

    Limiting a player to buy ZEN in ZAX ? Maybe yes. A 5000 ZEN limit per month, per account ? Thoughs ?

    Setting up another AD shop may help but it will not have much impact to Zax. What will the price in this AD shop be? If it is the same, people will buy depends on which one has sale. Since in the normal day, there is Zen store coupon, the better choice will usually be the Zen store. When there is a AD store sale, it can help Zax a bit at that period.

    Most people will make sure they have enough fund for either currency. Since Zen is harder to get and need to wait, they will keep on lining up for Zen.

    If AD shop always has the lower price, nobody will buy from Zen store.

    Having ward in T-bar store was not a failure to the players. People loved it. It draw down the ward price in AH. It was so good to the player that Cryptic had to move it out with the excuse as "(new) policy does not allow to have the same item in 2 shops".

    I don't know if it is still the case, I believe in the past you could only allow to submit 2 Zax offers. When to submit and how big the offer should be was a calculated challenge in the past.
    limit is 5 offers now
  • sandukutupusandukutupu Member Posts: 1,777 Arc User
    My solution to fix this is just remove the Zax or convert the AH to the gold, silver, and copper. Champions and Star Trek uses their currency (gold) for the Auction and not the Dilithium / Questionite. They also don't have the Dilithium and Questionite trading at 500 or a backlog in their Zax. I think about a week ago, I was on and they were trading 1 zen for 350 and 450. This is the only game that uses uses the crystal based currency for the AH and the only one with a massive backlog. I can buy loot box keys for both games in AH but not this one. This one has the AH linked to the cash system. I have said, this was a bad move since the alpha testing.

    I return you now to your regularly schedule rant about fixing it. Have fun! <3
    vacation.png
  • mentinmindmakermentinmindmaker Member Posts: 979 Arc User
    Since AD income per hour played will be reduced in mod 16, and since everyone will need a lot of AD to redo their gear, it is likely the Zax queue will drop sharply once mod 16 hits.
  • dionchidionchi Member Posts: 875 Arc User
    edited April 2019
    I'm of the opinion that the best way to fix the backlog on the exchange is for Neverwinter to announce that beginning the first of the year, Zen will be devalued to 1 Zen - 400 AD's (or lower), instead of 1 Zen - 500 AD's and the cap will remain in effect: “until further notice”.

    Hoarders think they’re playing hardball by just hanging on to their Zen until the price goes up – but if players are warned that the Exchange is going to go down and remain down for an indeterminate time, they’re left with the choice of either trying to unload their stock while the price is higher – or gamble on keeping their stockpile of Zen thinking the price will eventually go back up.

    Maybe it will – maybe it won’t…

    Then in the mean time, as more effective method to raise revenue and somewhat break the ZAX stagnation, offer some worthwhile item bundles, that can only be purchased (or purchased with benefits) with real world currency.

    Offer a companion on the Zen market and a similar companion for purchase with cash… the difference being companions purchased on the Zen market will have the companion limited to being claimed by one character per account – the companion purchased directly with real world cash, able to be claimed by every character on the account.

    A player buys a 3-pack of bonding runestones, rank 5-15, keys, whatever - from the Zen Market and those items are bound to character - if they purchase that same pack directly using real world currency, those items are bound to account... something like that-

    It may not be the best suggestion, but at least it's a suggestion.
    DD~
  • wintersmokewintersmoke Member Posts: 1,584 Arc User

    My solution to fix this is just remove the Zax or convert the AH to the gold, silver, and copper. Champions and Star Trek uses their currency (gold) for the Auction and not the Dilithium / Questionite. They also don't have the Dilithium and Questionite trading at 500 or a backlog in their Zax. I think about a week ago, I was on and they were trading 1 zen for 350 and 450. This is the only game that uses uses the crystal based currency for the AH and the only one with a massive backlog. I can buy loot box keys for both games in AH but not this one. This one has the AH linked to the cash system. I have said, this was a bad move since the alpha testing.

    I return you now to your regularly schedule rant about fixing it. Have fun! <3</p>

    What are you feeding that poor thing?
  • sandukutupusandukutupu Member Posts: 1,777 Arc User
    @wintersmoke Gatorade™

    Here is proof this works.


    vacation.png
  • fun4ever#6757 fun4ever Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    I started playind NW a ~week ago...
    As long time STO, and sometimes Champ player... i must say - there is something FUNDAMENTALLY wrong in NW Zen exchange...

    STO and Champ have healthy ZAX

    STO "Bu Zen" curently ~ 330:1 (more than 200k on "Bu Zen" list now)
    Champ "Bu Zen" ~ 460:1 (last time i played)


    P.S. ZAX and mainly MOD-16 is biggest turn off for me (as new player).
  • unthoughtknownunthoughtknown Member Posts: 104 Arc User
    Currently takes 46 days and growing to get Zen. That is insane.
  • dionchidionchi Member Posts: 875 Arc User
    edited April 2019

    @wintersmoke Gatorade™

    Here is proof this works.


    Looks like the Neverwinter exchange a year or so after I started playing... :+1:

    I also believe what is fundamentally wrong with the NW Zen exchange are the same things that get mentioned time again, with few or no steps being taken to actually address the issue...

    At one time I think someone attempted to find a partial solution when they took some items from the Zen Market and put them in the Trade bar market, but aside from that little else... add to that is the fact that just about anything one can purchase from the Zen Market (or merchants trading in Gold) can also be purchased from the Auction House and I believe the problem has actually been compounded.

    I've always said; "If no one was willing to buy a $100,000 car, fewer people would be trying to sell $100,000 cars and the prices would either drop to a more moderate level - or those companies would go out of business"...

    The same holds true I believe for the Zen Exchange and the Auction House, if fewer people were willing to pay the exorbitant prices for items on the Auction House or less willing to pay 500-1 for Zen, eventually the prices would moderate themselves… but that so many items continue to sell for millions of AD’s on the AH and the Zen Exchange has been stuck at 500 for such a long time, just tends to show me there appear to be many people playing Neverwinter with more in game currency than common sense.

    But that's just my take on it.
    DD~
  • havlockehavlocke Member Posts: 222 Arc User

    My solution to fix this is just remove the Zax or convert the AH to the gold, silver, and copper. Champions and Star Trek uses their currency (gold) for the Auction and not the Dilithium / Questionite. They also don't have the Dilithium and Questionite trading at 500 or a backlog in their Zax. I think about a week ago, I was on and they were trading 1 zen for 350 and 450. This is the only game that uses uses the crystal based currency for the AH and the only one with a massive backlog. I can buy loot box keys for both games in AH but not this one. This one has the AH linked to the cash system. I have said, this was a bad move since the alpha testing.

    I return you now to your regularly schedule rant about fixing it. Have fun! <3</p>

    That is pretty much nail on head there. I don't believe there is no real solution to the Zax issue in NWO until it goes to a 3 currency system like STO. Been playing on there for years and its never been an issue. I know people that trade Zen for EC and others that do the reverse all the time. Implying that its balanced just right.
  • exgardianexgardian Member Posts: 207 Arc User
    I like that suggestion above, making all items purchased in Zen Store plus items purchased by vouchers/discounts/events with BoA status, except items acquired by opening lockboxes.

    This would be a good first step.
    2fv72Fw.png
  • mentinmindmakermentinmindmaker Member Posts: 979 Arc User
    edited April 2019
    exgardian said:

    I like that suggestion above, making all items purchased in Zen Store plus items purchased by vouchers/discounts/events with BoA status, except items acquired by opening lockboxes.

    This would be a good first step.

    The consequence of this would be:
    The availability of pwards and coals for AD on AH would drop sharply, and likely the prices for those would increase significantly. This would in particular hit the new and casual players and make the game way less accessible to them.

    And lessened pward/coal sales would directly hit Cryptic's income too.

    The cure probably would be way worse for the game than the original problem.

  • wowmiledi#8665 wowmiledi Member Posts: 9 Arc User
    edited April 2019
    Attention please ! the zen market will never return to its normal state until the cause is resolved! The reason for this is prayer bots that pray in the thousands every day

    and get catalysts for it. Then collect the stones, sell them and stand in line at Zen market! With these Zen premium accounts are bought for years! and the keys are collected by the same thousands of bots!

    I play on the Russian server, at this moment 120 stones 14 lvl are selling, which sells by 3!!! nicknames !!! after the sale, they put a new one or just change a new bot for sale!
    To understand the catalyst price is 800k and 14 stone is 1.2kk, and do not ask me how this is possible, the answer in this post!

    I have repeatedly written to Russian support, but nothing happens in response, I got the impression that the Russian support knows but specifically ignores this problem!
  • greywyndgreywynd Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,840 Arc User
    Wards gained from invoking are BtA.
    Better to be a white knight than a knight with no honor.

    With your shield or on it.
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