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Why is no one listening?
spidey
Member Posts: 400 Arc User
Hi,
i saw some YT Vids from NW and i saw some really disturbing statements from all the big streamer i know.
Every big streamer was testing this new mod really hard and everyone is
how unprofessinal the devs making patches for mod 16 ( no patchnotes .....GG) and why no one from the devs are listening to all the complaints about mod 16. The major problem seems that the devs wont listen to the players.
So here are my questions:
Why is no one listening from the devs? Dont you play this game?
How ( FGS!!!) can you say in a stream that 90% from the players are happy with the change with no poll or any other proof? Hear say? Wishfull thinking?
When did this start? When excactly did the devs decide that they wont listen anymore/dont care about players opinion/providing hear say as fact?
Whats the goal?
This thread is not made to insult anyone. Im just curious how this happened and when this started. Im very confused atm. So many players wanna leave this game, not bc the game but bc the Devs and the way they handle the community....what happened? Srly...what happened???
i saw some YT Vids from NW and i saw some really disturbing statements from all the big streamer i know.
Every big streamer was testing this new mod really hard and everyone is
how unprofessinal the devs making patches for mod 16 ( no patchnotes .....GG) and why no one from the devs are listening to all the complaints about mod 16. The major problem seems that the devs wont listen to the players. So here are my questions:
Why is no one listening from the devs? Dont you play this game?
How ( FGS!!!) can you say in a stream that 90% from the players are happy with the change with no poll or any other proof? Hear say? Wishfull thinking?
When did this start? When excactly did the devs decide that they wont listen anymore/dont care about players opinion/providing hear say as fact?
Whats the goal?
This thread is not made to insult anyone. Im just curious how this happened and when this started. Im very confused atm. So many players wanna leave this game, not bc the game but bc the Devs and the way they handle the community....what happened? Srly...what happened???
3
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
Regardless of what I may or may not think about the changes proposed, there are many others who have expressed disappointment, anxiety and a willingness to leave Neverwinter Online.
Commercially these kind of YouTube videos and streaming vlogs will have a detrimental impact on the income into the game - i.e. new players to replace the old players.
So yes. It does seem odd.
I came into the game in October last year as a new and green player, rolled 2 characters and got them up to lvl 70.
Now there is a new big patch coming, mod 16, and a new lvl cap, lvl 80. Now I'm grinding with only one character to get it up to a decent item level (now at il 11k), lots of work here.......
I have been skimming around in the forums and there are lots of players complaining about the dev's not listening to the players regarding this new mod.
I'm beginning to wonder if it's the elite players that are online 24/7, spend huge amount of real money in game that the dev's are listening to, not us the casual players that are online a few hours a week and do not have the opportunity to spend lots of real money in the game,. Well, this is just a thought.
2)90% may be a straw poll number but as anyone who has played on the preview server can say, there is alot of people running around down in undermountain, how many of they are actually providing feedback, bug reports and such. If you look at the numbers of accounts that have downloaded a character onto the preview vs. the amount of people or actively submitting information, that may be where they are getting their numbers. If you test a game, mod, patch or whatever just to play it but don't activiely report information back you are just hurting the game.
3)Can't say, only been back for a few months but look at the answers to 1/2
1. they listen to some players whom they weight their opinion more (probably, these players could describe the issue better).
2. they select/filter what they want to listen/act on it.
They are not going to publicly acknowledge negative feedback. It's a no-win situation if they do.
When you see the smiling faces of the devs/comm managers in videos, talking in glowing terms about new 'features and enhancements' to the game, and telling you how excited you will be in the new zone in M16 - this is scripted content.
Whatever they think privately about the direction of the game - they are not going to say it publicly if it isn't in line with the people signing their paychecks.
At the end of the day, if anyone doesn't like the game and it's no longer fun for them - they should stop playing it. There's always going to be new people coming along. It would be better if they left instead of poisoning the community with vitriol - this is supposed to be a game, not a lifestyle, accept the game for what it is or play something else. If anyone does leave, please send me all your stuff before you go, ok? thanks!
Sekhmet@kvetchus_
Guilds: Greycloaks, Blackcloaks, Whitecloaks, Goldcloaks, Browncloaks, Spiritcloaks, Bluecloaks, Silvercloaks, Black Dawn
Tredecim: The Cloak Alliance
- As @kemnimtarkas said, it's a business; the decision was made to do it this way. Whether you are listening to a 'decision maker' or just one of the guys that gets told "we want this, set it up", they all have to toe the party line and say "Look at our wonderful new system, it'll be great!"
- The overall direction and layout of the class/power/feat/boon/companion etc. changes was set up and designed months ago, with a bunch of programming done, and old code simply removed and replaced with new. Other than tweaking stat levels and timers and companion stats etc. (which admittedly they seem to simply be flailing about and making guesses on) the system that is there now is what we are getting; bugs, missing data, bad values, crappy design and all. They simply cannot shift gears in the last 3 weeks and change anything major.
- While there is a boatload of negative feedback about the changes, and maybe 15-20% positive feedback, after that there really isn't any general 'player consensus' on what needs to be done. Opinions range from "just leave it the way it was, but add new stuff", to "yes some changes were needed but only a few carefully targeted ones (with little agreement on the targets)", to "yes we needed lots of new things, but not these things, just these other things that *I* like"
Devs can't and usually shouldn't listen to the players. (Seriously, most game advice from players on forums is quite bad.) What devs should do is listen to the tone of the player reaction to the game, and use something like a 'community manager' to gather and consolidate the best ideas/comments from the player base and pass those along to the dev team. Then a good design team will come up with something that is well designed along game mechanics, suitable to the player psychology of their community, and interesting enough to bring new energy to the game.
So far, I can't see that Cryptic has done any of the above. However, they are also too far along this poorly designed path to back off from it now. The best they can do is eliminate the worst bugs, make Mod 16 less of a disaster, and hope they only lose 1/3 of their players in the 2 months after it drops.
Yeah it was annoying the first year as I learned the game and had to get accustom to being average or below average. The 2nd year with a bit of grinding and with some money I went from lowly 13K to 15K and eventually 17K+ on three character. I loved all 3 and enjoyed the mechanics of all three.
Mod 16 changed that and now I'm only playing one character and may not even stick around when mod 16 lands. The biggest issue I have is the removal of character customization. We went from having a variety of abilities points to select down to a single one and even than they are not all optimal given how the stats work now in mod 16. Next is the major change to feats; we went from having 61 points for feats and on average most players had around 14 or 15 selected feats. Instead the new system we get to pick 5 of the possible 10. We went from having 14+ feats at 70 down to 5 at 80.
Next big issue is that zones, dungeons, etc scale players stats making higher gear/stat players less effective in lower zones. In fact the scaling is horrible ATM and I don't see that getting fixed properly any time soon. The only way scaling is effective from my experience is if GEAR only is scaled to the zone, not added items such as enchantments, insignia, etc.. With the current setup in mod 16 once a end game player hits 80, they won't want to run anything that is not 80 because it won't be worth there time or effort do to scaling and the fact they lose their power.
Both of these issues are not D&D in any way or form and that is why I'm against the devs reducting customization and scaling. In D&D if you fight a level 1 kobold at level 1 they are tough and give you a proper challenge, but once you hit level 10 in D&D that same kobold does not present the same level of challenge as you have increased in strength and power, that kobold is now much weaker and you as the player can easily take them down, in fact they are more likely not going to bother with you do to how powerful you. As for customization that has always been a hallmark of D&D; even when things were simple with 4 classes you still had customization on your character stats.
The other thing is that the game went from engaging with encounters and fast pace to slow and tedious. Combat now takes longer and feels drawn out for no reason what so ever other than because the devs wanted it to be like that. And the end results is what use to take 10-15 minutes now can take 30+ minutes making it so we are less likely to play ALT or spend money on our ALT.
Everything about this mod screams we are making NWO not for adults but for the younger generation that wants stuff to be easy. That is how it feels, like the devs are trying to make the game appeal to kids and not adults.
The whole argument about class customization is silly. Pre-m16 if you didn't choose very specific options you might be good enough for solo levelling and grinding, but you'd *always* be a drag in endgame play. Always. You might make it through due to skill, or due to being carried (whether you realized it or not) but with an unoptimized build, you would be a drag on your team. It's no different in m16, but they have (mostly) removed the useless choices. The reduction in options is just an illusion here, and in fact, they improved the viability of what options we do have, thus making MORE of the options you can choose result in viable characters.
It sounds paradoxical, but they have, in fact, increased our viable options by reducing the number of available selections. People are all hung up on the reduction without really recognizing the bigger picture.
Sekhmet@kvetchus_
Guilds: Greycloaks, Blackcloaks, Whitecloaks, Goldcloaks, Browncloaks, Spiritcloaks, Bluecloaks, Silvercloaks, Black Dawn
Tredecim: The Cloak Alliance
They are listening. Asterdahl has proven that.
But they have fully committed to this reboot. It's not going back.
So only evidence based practical suggestions that are easy to implement and comply with their new vision will be considered or even commented upon.
"This sucks" is not constructive feeedback. Even if it is a true statement. Don't expect a response to vague complaints.
They are working with a skeleton crew, many staff resources redirected to a major upcoming project.
Their new business model seems to focus on a lower maintenance game that narrows the divide between new/undergeared players and veteran/BiS players.
I disagree with the method used to level the field (nerf the HAMSTER out of everyone).
But it is certainly not random.
They are a business. They will "listen", as you say, if/when revenues and (to a lesser extent) the poulation drops.
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
> I can tell you from first-hand knowledge that the devs are listening very closely and taking all valid criticism and input seriously. What they're not doing is responding to every little nitpick and personal want-list item, especially when said nitpick or item includes insults, rants, raves, moans, groans, or otherwise 3 year-old temper tantrum-like behavior. The devs spent a month working closely with a small set of hand-picked players who gave incredible feedback (er, if I do say so myself...) which helped improve m16 in major ways from the time closed beta started to when it went open beta on Preview. In the, what, month? it's been on Preview it's also improved significantly in large part because the devs ARE listening to feedback - they just don't have time to respond to every little complaint and rant (though @asterdahl , bless his heart, sure does try!). More importantly, because they have to sift through hundreds of trash posts about how much things suck (with no substantiation or explanation as to why they suck aside from "I liked it better before" sorts of posts) they REALLY have no time to spend talking. The really do listen to player feedback - but keep in mind the definition of "listen" -- it doesn't say anything about conversation or response. Just because they don't have time to respond to things doesn't mean they aren't listening, and just because they're not rushing to implemented every little suggestion doesn't mean they didn't hear it. At the end of the day, they have to choose a direction and go with it, come hell or high water, because otherwise nothing would ever get done.
>
> At the end of the day, if anyone doesn't like the game and it's no longer fun for them - they should stop playing it. There's always going to be new people coming along. It would be better if they left instead of poisoning the community with vitriol - this is supposed to be a game, not a lifestyle, accept the game for what it is or play something else. If anyone does leave, please send me all your stuff before you go, ok? thanks!
I always laugh at the people that say if you dont like it, leave. Please run a business that way and see how long you truly stay up and running and making a profit.
Using a few select game players to be your testers and reviewers on a beta and taking their changes into decision making again isn't the best of ideas. Those same testers have their opinion on what makes the game fun and challenging to them, but that may not be the same to most of the player base.
In the end the decisions have already been made, now for some we are just waiting to see what the true fallout will be.
And if I do decide to leave the game, sorry but No you can't have my stuff. It will sin in my inventory and rot until I delete the game. My DCUO toon still has tons of things worth value and I haven't been on that game in over 3 years.
However, you must keep in mind that some decisions are set in stone and no player feedback will change those. The foundry is going away. Excessive buffing is going away. Encounter spamming is going away. Lifesteal is going away. Build flexibility is (mostly) going away. Meaningful primary stats and game-changing feats and boons are going away. Active companions are going away, non-companion gear in companion slots is going away. The days of high-level players one-shotting everything in lower-level content are going away.
No amount of feedback, whining or complaining will change this.
For some people that is enough to make them decide this is no longer a game for them. That's fine, there are several similar games out there, and at least two promising ones on the way. Others (and I think that actually includes the majority of the players who have been following/testing the Mod 16 changes), have adopted a "wait and see" attitude. Then there is a small percentage (it's small, but it's there) of players who really look forward to the coming changes.
A lot of complicated mechanisms and options are removed(those required reading up on the Internet to get right), the power curve vs. Il is dramatically flattened. There should be little reason to kick anyone for low dps now.
Basically the high IL people are being nerfed into the ground so they will no longer have a huge lead on the average players, dps-wise.
Good news for the casual crowd, boring for the BiS crowd.
I never said devs like @asterdahl dont answer question or dont try to do their best ( i really admire the work from @asterdahl ).
But decissions like enchants BtA and the answers from @noworries#8859 about this change? Well...i dont think this was well handled and i wonder if its now "Take it and be quiet." I dont think its a good way to handle ppl.
By the way, Northside isn't quitting NW. He's even going to continue doing updates now and then. It's true he's getting into ESO, but that doesn't mean he's quitting NW (I just talked to him about this thread: "misinformation" is how he termed it).
I was involved in this games Alpha starting in Jan 2013 - before closed beta, so I've seen many people come, go, and come back. Myself included - I took a nearly 2 year break before returning a month before Ravenloft dropped. Just because someone isn't playing doesn't mean they're quitting. If they do, they do. There's always more. The majority of the player base will stick around, and those that leave will be replaced by new players. It's been that way every time, and this will be no different.
The only real threat to Neverwinter's viability is it's aging game engine. Eventually it will just be another old MMO - every MMO goes that way eventually - but m16 is not the end of NW, not even close. More like a new beginning really as a ton of the underlying mess has been cleaned up, which should allow more opportunity for Cryptic to make improvements more efficiently.
Sekhmet@kvetchus_
Guilds: Greycloaks, Blackcloaks, Whitecloaks, Goldcloaks, Browncloaks, Spiritcloaks, Bluecloaks, Silvercloaks, Black Dawn
Tredecim: The Cloak Alliance
Sekhmet@kvetchus_
Guilds: Greycloaks, Blackcloaks, Whitecloaks, Goldcloaks, Browncloaks, Spiritcloaks, Bluecloaks, Silvercloaks, Black Dawn
Tredecim: The Cloak Alliance
It's not rude to say adapt or leave, it's simply the way it is. You (me, us, everyone) can only choose for yourself if this game is still something you want to be a part of. If the answer is yes, then remember YOU (whomever is reading this, I mean) chose to remain so being toxic and throwing complaints and bashing the game, the devs, the company, whatever, is just silly - it's basically the same thing as shitting where you eat (something humans seem to do pretty frequently, unfortunately). If that's how you feel, then you made the wrong choice for yourself. If the answer is no, then fine and you're probably right. If you don't feel like this game is fun, then you SHOULD stop playing it. If that's your choice, there's no need to leave poison in your wake, there's no need to try and drag the community down with you - just go and I hope you have fun somewhere else and leave those of us that still consider NW fun to play to our game.
Sekhmet@kvetchus_
Guilds: Greycloaks, Blackcloaks, Whitecloaks, Goldcloaks, Browncloaks, Spiritcloaks, Bluecloaks, Silvercloaks, Black Dawn
Tredecim: The Cloak Alliance
1. Mod 16 is a simplification of the game because the current coding can not be supported. @mimicking#6533 said as much in a live stream. The reworked coding, simplified at present, is a foundation for later (at least from his perspective) expansions. My issue is that the choice of the formulas AND the scaling reduces the sense of progression in the game (complaints of grind, etc). And when patch notes are missing and stat-to-percentage ratios change from 500:1 to 1000:1, I get the sense that mod 16 is going in the wrong direction for building a sense of progression in the game.
2. Mod 16 is supposed to give a sense of achievement from the mechanics itself. This is what has been stated. Thus, they are committed to the flattening of stats, etc. So, the choice to do so removes a sense of progression in having customized builds (which I am very much against), and instead tries to return to simple mechanic combinations that are weirdly independent of actual group/party synergy. Thus, according to this contrarian game design, I must suspend my sense of accomplishment in stats and item mechanics (because that is too individual) and instead rely upon game-play mechanics (simplified to a handful of choices) that are independent of group play. That makes no sense to me. Group synergy of specific builds is gone, because that is too individual??? So, as I hold my shield and try and build active aggro (even though I can't attack lest I die), I cannot give group defense protection, or buff or debuff the targets, or really help in any way, and then I am supposed to feel good about what I did? This...THIS...is why I am negative about mod 16. The switch is illogical and self-defeating. My group play in mod 16 feels more individual and segmented than at any time in the history of the game. Thus, my character, regardless of stats or abilities or gear...feels...unimportant, unneeded, useless.
My feedback has been consistent on these points, but of course, they butte against the philosophy behind the specific choices. "The road to hell is paved with good intentions." I do not fault any dev or designer or manager who has put in lots of real effort to secure their own jobs, future, and make a game that is visually stimulating and content rich. Your effort is noticed. However, the PLAN behind the effort is faulty. I spend money in the game when I am having fun, when I feel like I have (or can) accomplish something. I spend based on satisfaction, not instant grabs. And, from my gut I have consistently posted that mod 16 is between a meh...and a downer. My reactions are not based on the shock of a one time preview run. It is based on hours of preview play as well as reading through changes on forums, youtube vids, live streams, etc. MY reason (maybe not everyone's) for playing Neverwinter is SEVERLY diminished in mod 16. That is the bottom line.
And I do not know if posting it over and over is helpful. But, at least there will be no excuse for...we didn't know. I am not one of the 90%.
Guild--And the Imaginary Friends
Build diversity is dead, the system is now so simple that working out what is best will be trivial to the people who are good at that sort of thing.
The exchange system being BtA is an absolute killer and would be pretty easy to avoid. Nobody in their right mind will put Zen into the system, so the exchange will (after the initial rush) back up to 6 months and people will leave in droves. I'm still waiting for Zen after 6 weeks as it is and I don't see it ever getting any better in the long term.
Progression is a bad joke, the bonding nerf was about 6 months backwards for me, M16 feels like about 3 years back.
I'm not a fan of some of the changes, I think there's some things that are in the right direction but if I don't like the final product, well there's plenty of other games out there to occupy my time.
Totally agree that 90% number was just pulled out of thin air.
The elite, BiS players with multiple legendary mounts, multiple legendary companions & fully ranked up enchants are the one's the dev's are favoring? That's your theory?
You mean the endgame players that just lost the most financially?
The ones that probably need to redo all their companions?
The ones that have legendary mounts that that now have stats that are worse than companions?
The one's that were most likely to have paid for campaigns, power points, etc and now had most of that invalidated?
Yes, I see it now. Everything done in M16 was to benefit the endgame players and not to help casuals close the gap faster and easier. I can imagine the BiS endgamer sitting there saying "I'm thrilled that all the money I put into the game, all the AD I spent on everything and now most of it is utterly worthless. Thank the gods that the devs favor me! Those poor casual players though. They've got it rough."
Most...okay all.. of the people saying that in the forums aren't company employees so I don't get where you're heading here. But heck for giggles, most business heads will say behind closed doors if they don't like it they can leave.
There are wonderful people out there that handle risk assessment for companies. They estimate and determine if the loss of customers would be worth going through with something like say, amazon raising the price of prime by $20/year. I'm not saying there was any risk assessment handled for Neverwinter. Just saying lots of businesses are willing to shed some customers to maintain their vision or objective. Of course, like in this instance, no employee is on here telling anyone to get lost if they don't like it. But it's a given. As @kvet said, if you (not you specifically) don't like it, leave. It's not a rude statement. It's a fact of life. You can sit here in agony with a game you don't enjoy....or go have some fun elsewhere.
There are hundreds of players complaining about items.. and only 2 devs.. only so much time.
Dont pile on them please.
Now if you want to question framework and a company that seems to not hire enough assets to support itself , or siphons off whatever profits here to move it to say another commercial adventure they are looking to lunch, that is causing these poor devs to suffer this onslot.. go ahead.
That to me is fair game.
New players will find Neverwinter challenging and fun, stick with the game become veteran players, spend a little money - or they won't...
And the game will survive (or it won't) depending on the revenue and funding it receives. Revenue drops and perhaps changes and future modifications will reflect the things the majority of players say they have a problem with – revenue stays the same or increases and perhaps the players will see more modifications of the type we see in Mod16.
At this point I figure it’s an experiment, players have been asking for and demanding “character class balance” for years yet few of those players who have been screaming for “character class balance” aren’t applauding the changes – because I figure they didn’t really want “balance” so much as they wanted a bump in their own individual character class attributes or a reduction for other character class attributes, disguised as a call for player class balance…
Well it seems to me Mod16 certainly provides “character class balance”. So much so that just about every character seems to be a ‘cookie cutter’ replicant of every other character class. Now each character can either run as a “DPS” character or a support character with fewer “powers”, “feats” and “boons” to choose from and many of those powers, feats and boons have also been modified to produce even more “balance” and more of a “cookie cutter” aspect to different player classes.
Whether these changes helps the game thrive, returns some of the interest in existing campaigns, quests, dungeons skirmishes or the new campaigns, quests, dungeons skirmishes introduced by Mod16 remains to be seen. I’ve been here since the first year of the game and will remain (and spend money) so long as I find the game entertaining – as games should be. Should the game lose it’s entertainment value for and since I have no plan to single handedly provide the revenue to support the game, if Neverwinter loses it entertainment value I’ll probably try to find another FTP MMORPG to my liking, possibly checking back periodically to see what if any changes have been made – or I won’t.
But it is what it is…
My 2¢