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Official M16: Barbarian Feedback

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  • asterdahlasterdahl Posts: 1,234 Member, Cryptic Developer Cryptic Developer

    I haven't had a chance to pop into test the Sentinel yet, but something I've seen about Unstoppable has me a little concerned- unless I'm misreading it, isn't it a net defensive loss? You block everything, your stamina regenerates slower, and there's no buff to damage resistance mentioned. How do you control it to avoid being left with no stamina when it wears off? Does your Determination act as an additional Stamina bar while it's up?

    from what iv'e tested there is a blue guage and by pressing shift you can block in front of you, you can also move and rotate but not attack while blocking. when you release the shift key your blue gauge refills. So it is important to time your blocks to allow for the gauge to refill.
    Right... so what does Unstoppable do when you press Tab? I thought it made you autoblock?

    tab activates unstopable as it did before from what i can tell i'm not sure about autoblock though, i haven't really noticed.
    My understanding is that the new functionality of Unstoppable is as follows:
    "
    Dealing Damage, taking damage, and killing foes increases your Determination Gauge.When the Determination Gauge reaches 50%, you may activate Unstoppable.
    Activating Unstoppable increases the speed of your at-will.
    Added Effect: Automatically block all attacks as long as stamina remains. Stamina Regeneration is reduced.
    Added Effect: Control Immunity
    "

    is that not correct?
    That is correct. I understand your feedback, about being concerned that you might block attacks you don't want to block while using Unstoppable. To be clear though, stamina does not regenerate at all while blocking normally, so a decreased rate of stamina regeneration while Unstoppable is a big survivability increase.

    That said, you will need to use Unstoppable judiciously in a tough boss fight. You don't want to press Unstoppable 10 seconds before a tank buster and get trucked after your stamina got eaten up by auto attacks that should've been healed. Once you've had a chance to try it, I look forward to hearing your feedback.
  • itzlapolaloltzitzlapolaloltz Posts: 37Member Arc User
    asterdahl said:

    Shhh—don't tell the other classes but you guys are the best. This is definitely the most positive thread I have the privilege of interacting with right now, and I appreciate everyone's chipper attitude.

    This week will only feature a few changes, but I hope to have a lot more addressed next week—I don't think you'll be disappointed. And again, I'd like to thank you all for your patience.

    You are good too ^^. Its nice to see you very responsive.
    Swinging our big sword to bring destruction again is just a matter of time ;)
  • ltsmithnekoltsmithneko Posts: 1,539Member Arc User
    asterdahl said:




    I want to see this work a bit differently, as of instead of the buff fade away downwards, it should work rise up upwards, this way it will go against the Fast Burns, also One shotting phases, this Buff need to be upwards, and the Buff should mirror the Magnitude of a normal dmging encounter in ST, i feel like we shouldn't necesarly press our buttons like madman right after BF, makes more sense to have it work upwards,i feel like Battle fury should work upwards where the highest peak would be at the end of the buff duration. And again the Buff should mirror the Magnitude of a encounter magnitude.

    I appreciate the feedback! Currently, because sources of buffs and debuffs like this are much more limited, I'm not as concerned with the issues you bring up, and I do think the decaying effect flows a bit better—you roar right before unloading, and also, players who see you use battle fury can know to blow their damage right away if possible. The timing might get a bit odd having to count the seconds after you pop it.

    That being said, if there's enough feedback to this effect, I could certainly consider a change.
    Even though im on console for most my gwf play, so I don't get to see my buff bar too much I'd agree with Barbie on this since currently I don't even use Battle Fury on Preview due to the diminishing effect, I'd prefer to slot Flourish/HD/IBS. With it instead building up it'd give as Barbie said in a way, group synergy a bit more than trigger BF n' spam hardest hitting attacks without some of our own buffs really getting a chance to stack, also would allow us to make better use of synergy with our own buffs from feats to work with bf a bit better once we go unstoppable. ^.^

    (Lil' side note maybe as a QoL update let players prioritize buffs so those show up before others. c:)

    Also as others have mentioned thank you to you too for listening n' giving feedback to us on the progress of things.
  • c3rb3r3c3rb3r3 Posts: 275Member Arc User
    edited March 7
    asterdahl said:




    I want to see this work a bit differently, as of instead of the buff fade away downwards, it should work rise up upwards, this way it will go against the Fast Burns, also One shotting phases, this Buff need to be upwards, and the Buff should mirror the Magnitude of a normal dmging encounter in ST, i feel like we shouldn't necesarly press our buttons like madman right after BF, makes more sense to have it work upwards,i feel like Battle fury should work upwards where the highest peak would be at the end of the buff duration. And again the Buff should mirror the Magnitude of a encounter magnitude.

    I appreciate the feedback! Currently, because sources of buffs and debuffs like this are much more limited, I'm not as concerned with the issues you bring up, and I do think the decaying effect flows a bit better—you roar right before unloading, and also, players who see you use battle fury can know to blow their damage right away if possible. The timing might get a bit odd having to count the seconds after you pop it.

    That being said, if there's enough feedback to this effect, I could certainly consider a change.
    I agree with barbie in the sense that it would be a great QoL change. Currently BF kind of incentives smashing the keyboard in order to land the maximum amount of encounters and dailies.
    It would be QoL in the sense of thinking on timings and having a rotation flow that isn't such nervous and more thought and smooth.
  • fenrir4lifefenrir4life Posts: 295Member Arc User
    asterdahl said:

    I haven't had a chance to pop into test the Sentinel yet, but something I've seen about Unstoppable has me a little concerned- unless I'm misreading it, isn't it a net defensive loss? You block everything, your stamina regenerates slower, and there's no buff to damage resistance mentioned. How do you control it to avoid being left with no stamina when it wears off? Does your Determination act as an additional Stamina bar while it's up?

    from what iv'e tested there is a blue guage and by pressing shift you can block in front of you, you can also move and rotate but not attack while blocking. when you release the shift key your blue gauge refills. So it is important to time your blocks to allow for the gauge to refill.
    Right... so what does Unstoppable do when you press Tab? I thought it made you autoblock?

    tab activates unstopable as it did before from what i can tell i'm not sure about autoblock though, i haven't really noticed.
    My understanding is that the new functionality of Unstoppable is as follows:
    "
    Dealing Damage, taking damage, and killing foes increases your Determination Gauge.When the Determination Gauge reaches 50%, you may activate Unstoppable.
    Activating Unstoppable increases the speed of your at-will.
    Added Effect: Automatically block all attacks as long as stamina remains. Stamina Regeneration is reduced.
    Added Effect: Control Immunity
    "

    is that not correct?
    That is correct. I understand your feedback, about being concerned that you might block attacks you don't want to block while using Unstoppable. To be clear though, stamina does not regenerate at all while blocking normally, so a decreased rate of stamina regeneration while Unstoppable is a big survivability increase.

    That said, you will need to use Unstoppable judiciously in a tough boss fight. You don't want to press Unstoppable 10 seconds before a tank buster and get trucked after your stamina got eaten up by auto attacks that should've been healed. Once you've had a chance to try it, I look forward to hearing your feedback.

    I've had a chance to test it, and it's nowhere near as bad as I feared, although the bug of temp HP being eaten before block is calculated can make it appear that the block function isn't working(unless that's not a bug, in which case Unstoppable really feels like the only place where it should be happening in that order).



    Sentinel feels like it's on the right track, overall; definitely feels more polished than Vanguard. Lot of changes to get used to, but that's not inherently bad. Kind of miss the quick repositioning when dealing with the flanking-obsessed AI; I know it's not RAW, but can we get Attacks of Opportunity on things moving around in our space? Asking for a friend.
    Definitely looking forward to seeing what you replace Reaping Strike with.
    I understand the mechanical reasons for it, but the way all of the vom tag strokes are animated (overcommitted, with a ground slam) makes it feel like they should be able to hit multiple targets- this applies to IBS(unfortunate abbreviation aside) and the final swing of Sure Strike. Particularly with the potential for mobs to shuffle around each other, it feels frustratingly common for the "wrong" mob to eat the hits due to last-second movement/overlap.

    The feats feel conceptually good. No access to the game to double-check, but I've got two barbarian characters with very different personalities and styles, and I believe they'll have almost no feats in common. My testing hasn't been extensive as to viability, but in terms of design intent, they all seem to come from a pretty good place.

    I definitely want to do more testing, play around with powers beyond IBS, CAGI, and RS (okay, lying, I never want to unslot RS, but that's because I'm addicted to self-healing in any context, not because it's mechanically indispensable)
  • fenrir4lifefenrir4life Posts: 295Member Arc User
    asterdahl said:

    I haven't had a chance to pop into test the Sentinel yet, but something I've seen about Unstoppable has me a little concerned- unless I'm misreading it, isn't it a net defensive loss? You block everything, your stamina regenerates slower, and there's no buff to damage resistance mentioned. How do you control it to avoid being left with no stamina when it wears off? Does your Determination act as an additional Stamina bar while it's up?

    from what iv'e tested there is a blue guage and by pressing shift you can block in front of you, you can also move and rotate but not attack while blocking. when you release the shift key your blue gauge refills. So it is important to time your blocks to allow for the gauge to refill.
    Right... so what does Unstoppable do when you press Tab? I thought it made you autoblock?

    tab activates unstopable as it did before from what i can tell i'm not sure about autoblock though, i haven't really noticed.
    My understanding is that the new functionality of Unstoppable is as follows:
    "
    Dealing Damage, taking damage, and killing foes increases your Determination Gauge.When the Determination Gauge reaches 50%, you may activate Unstoppable.
    Activating Unstoppable increases the speed of your at-will.
    Added Effect: Automatically block all attacks as long as stamina remains. Stamina Regeneration is reduced.
    Added Effect: Control Immunity
    "

    is that not correct?
    That is correct. I understand your feedback, about being concerned that you might block attacks you don't want to block while using Unstoppable. To be clear though, stamina does not regenerate at all while blocking normally, so a decreased rate of stamina regeneration while Unstoppable is a big survivability increase.

    That said, you will need to use Unstoppable judiciously in a tough boss fight. You don't want to press Unstoppable 10 seconds before a tank buster and get trucked after your stamina got eaten up by auto attacks that should've been healed. Once you've had a chance to try it, I look forward to hearing your feedback.
    I've had a chance to test it, and it's definitely not as bad as I feared.

    I also posted a bunch of feedback, but when I edited the post to clarify wording, the forum ate the whole post. That was... discouraging, so I'll just summarize.


    Sentinel feels like its concepts are mostly in the right place; definitely looking forward to whatever replaces Reaping Strike.
    Can we have Attacks of Opportunity on the flanking-obsessed AI? Being unable to keep more then two mobs from a pack in my forward arc is about the only thing that makes me miss Sprint over Parry.
    Vom Tag strokes are animated like they should be able to hit multiple targets if they overlap; frequency of overlap makes it frustrating when they can't and the "wrong" mob eats the big hit.

    Feats feel really well-designed; I didn't do enough testing to speak to viability, but I've got two barbarian characters, and I expect their Sentinel builds to have relatively little overlap.

    At-wills on tanks still feel undertuned. I've read the rationale for why this would be the case, but speaking as an old leftist, I wouldn't mind shallowing the skill curve on the martial classes if it meant feeling like I was actually accomplishing something with my mouse buttons- especially given that tanks will almost always be running at least one non-damaging encounter power, either for utility or defense. I know I've suggested this elsewhere, but I honestly think that playstyle (blocking, chasing defensive stats, feat selection, power selection) will already do a decent job of keeping tank damage below dps damage, but even if the tank tax stays on encounter and daily powers, taking it off the atwills would be a godsend.
  • jantogsf#0997 jantogsf Posts: 97Member Arc User
    Here are some suggestions from a NW newbie.

    1. DPS classes should get dual wield.
    2. DPS classes' At-Will should strike 2x if using a two-hander and 4x if dual wielding.
    3. Non-DPS classes At-Wills strike twice; this should be slower than the strikes from a DPS using a two-hander. Non-DPS cannot dual wield weapons.
    4. Spamming R1 for At-Wills is annoying. Holding down R1 or R2 to initate At-Wills makes sense. (Or make it push for on/push for off.)
    5. All At-Wills should have the same base damage per strike. These can be modified by Str and Dex (for crits).
    6. The implication of #5 is: DPS, which strike twice (four times) when using two-hander (dual-wielding) do more damage than non DPS classes, all else equal.
    7. The implication of 1-3, and 5: DPS that want to do damage will have higher str/dex and low stamina. DPS that want to tank will have low damage output, but high Con.
  • rjc9000rjc9000 Posts: 2,098Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited March 7
    asterdahl said:


    I appreciate the feedback! Currently, because sources of buffs and debuffs like this are much more limited, I'm not as concerned with the issues you bring up, and I do think the decaying effect flows a bit better—you roar right before unloading, and also, players who see you use battle fury can know to blow their damage right away if possible. The timing might get a bit odd having to count the seconds after you pop it.

    That being said, if there's enough feedback to this effect, I could certainly consider a change.

    The concept sounds great. I like that it actually forces you to think and wait a little bit to use it, unlike "fire off everything ASAP" that is encouraged right now.

    The only thing I'd suggest is rewording the reduction to not use percentages (while keeping its original functionality). Something like "the effect is reduced by 1/5th in potency for every 2 seconds that passes".

    The whole 20% makes sense mathematically. 10 * 0.2=2%, aka, the damage bonus is reduced 2% for every 2 seconds.

    However, the tooltip already has a lot of percentages in it and could possibly confuse players with an additional percentage. The 10% for myself, then 5% for allies seems easy enough to figure out from a glance. Throw in another 20% and I suspect new players will wonder what the 20% is for/comes from.

    ---

    Another suggestion that someone talked to me about would be to extend the duration to 15 seconds, in addition to other changes. The first 5 seconds grant +20% damage for the Barbarian, the next 5 seconds would grant no bonus, and the last 5 seconds grants a -10% penalty to damage dealt. This still forces players to time their attacks while also having a clearer effect.
    Post edited by rjc9000 on

  • gromovnipljesak#8234 gromovnipljesak Posts: 954Member Arc User
    rjc9000 said:

    asterdahl said:


    I appreciate the feedback! Currently, because sources of buffs and debuffs like this are much more limited, I'm not as concerned with the issues you bring up, and I do think the decaying effect flows a bit better—you roar right before unloading, and also, players who see you use battle fury can know to blow their damage right away if possible. The timing might get a bit odd having to count the seconds after you pop it.

    That being said, if there's enough feedback to this effect, I could certainly consider a change.

    The concept sounds great. I like that it actually forces you to think and wait a little bit to use it, unlike "fire off everything ASAP" that is encouraged right now.

    The only thing I'd suggest is rewording the reduction to not use percentages (while keeping its original functionality). Something like "the effect is reduced by 1/5th in potency for every 2 seconds that passes".

    The whole 20% makes sense mathematically. 10 * 0.2=2%, aka, the damage bonus is reduced 2% for every 2 seconds.

    However, the tooltip already has a lot of percentages in it and could possibly confuse players with an additional percentage. The 10% for myself, then 5% for allies seems easy enough to figure out from a glance. Throw in another 20% and I suspect new players will wonder what the 20% is for/comes from.

    ---

    Another suggestion that someone talked to me about would be to extend the duration to 15 seconds, in addition to other changes. The first 5 seconds grant +20% damage for the Barbarian, the next 5 seconds would grant no bonus, and the last 5 seconds grants a -10% penalty to damage dealt. This still forces players to time their attacks while also having a clearer effect.
    I agree that it's confusing, however, I'm kinda iffy on the last part. Since the duration of the buff is so short, I'd love it if they could lower the CD to match the duration. Right now it takes a decade to go off CD.
  • fenrir4lifefenrir4life Posts: 295Member Arc User
    rjc9000 said:

    asterdahl said:


    I appreciate the feedback! Currently, because sources of buffs and debuffs like this are much more limited, I'm not as concerned with the issues you bring up, and I do think the decaying effect flows a bit better—you roar right before unloading, and also, players who see you use battle fury can know to blow their damage right away if possible. The timing might get a bit odd having to count the seconds after you pop it.

    That being said, if there's enough feedback to this effect, I could certainly consider a change.

    The concept sounds great. I like that it actually forces you to think and wait a little bit to use it, unlike "fire off everything ASAP" that is encouraged right now.

    The only thing I'd suggest is rewording the reduction to not use percentages (while keeping its original functionality). Something like "the effect is reduced by 1/5th in potency for every 2 seconds that passes".

    The whole 20% makes sense mathematically. 10 * 0.2=2%, aka, the damage bonus is reduced 2% for every 2 seconds.

    However, the tooltip already has a lot of percentages in it and could possibly confuse players with an additional percentage. The 10% for myself, then 5% for allies seems easy enough to figure out from a glance. Throw in another 20% and I suspect new players will wonder what the 20% is for/comes from.

    ---

    Another suggestion that someone talked to me about would be to extend the duration to 15 seconds, in addition to other changes. The first 5 seconds grant +20% damage for the Barbarian, the next 5 seconds would grant no bonus, and the last 5 seconds grants a -10% penalty to damage dealt. This still forces players to time their attacks while also having a clearer effect.
    Could we not do self-debuffs? Even if you technically come out ahead from the math, it feels bad. Also can screw you worse than usual if a mechanic forces you out of range.
  • ltsmithnekoltsmithneko Posts: 1,539Member Arc User
    edited March 7
    Another note of BF lets have a little comparison to Hidden Daggers currently if im not mistaken on preview BF is a buff while Hidden Daggers is a debuff.(Don't necessarily understand the dagger to debuff change) That's the one advantage battle fury has over Hidden Daggers currently. But as for the uptime rate, cooldown, and that hidden daggers actually deals dmg n' battle fury doesn't make up for it in it's buffing duration, diminishing effect, dmg increase and cooldown.
  • fenrir4lifefenrir4life Posts: 295Member Arc User

    Here are some suggestions from a NW newbie.

    1. DPS classes should get dual wield.
    2. DPS classes' At-Will should strike 2x if using a two-hander and 4x if dual wielding.
    3. Non-DPS classes At-Wills strike twice; this should be slower than the strikes from a DPS using a two-hander. Non-DPS cannot dual wield weapons.
    4. Spamming R1 for At-Wills is annoying. Holding down R1 or R2 to initate At-Wills makes sense. (Or make it push for on/push for off.)
    5. All At-Wills should have the same base damage per strike. These can be modified by Str and Dex (for crits).
    6. The implication of #5 is: DPS, which strike twice (four times) when using two-hander (dual-wielding) do more damage than non DPS classes, all else equal.
    7. The implication of 1-3, and 5: DPS that want to do damage will have higher str/dex and low stamina. DPS that want to tank will have low damage output, but high Con.

    1. Already in game. Both physical pure dps classes can dual wield.
    2, 3, and 5: why reinvent the wheel? Both dual wielding classes have most of their powers checking both weapons for damage. The profile of the power determines attack speed, magnitude per hit, targeting profile, and number of targets hit. Standardizing some but not all of these attributes would render some atwills obsolete and some mandatory. Pass. Standardizing all of these would remove much of the variety from the game. Also pass.
    4. Keyboard and mouse does not have this problem; the at-will continues as long as the button is held. If that is not the case for Xbox, that's a perfectly reasonable thing to ask for.
    6. All else is not equal; your premise is flawed.
    7. This is already basically the state of the game, except that dps do not/should not tank(I see you, Dreadnought), and a dps who went low-damage, -high CON, would not be able to take aggro anyway without the tank threat buff (and the damage loss that comes with it)

    What's the goal, here?
  • jantogsf#0997 jantogsf Posts: 97Member Arc User

    Here are some suggestions from a NW newbie.

    1. DPS classes should get dual wield.
    2. DPS classes' At-Will should strike 2x if using a two-hander and 4x if dual wielding.
    3. Non-DPS classes At-Wills strike twice; this should be slower than the strikes from a DPS using a two-hander. Non-DPS cannot dual wield weapons.
    4. Spamming R1 for At-Wills is annoying. Holding down R1 or R2 to initate At-Wills makes sense. (Or make it push for on/push for off.)
    5. All At-Wills should have the same base damage per strike. These can be modified by Str and Dex (for crits).
    6. The implication of #5 is: DPS, which strike twice (four times) when using two-hander (dual-wielding) do more damage than non DPS classes, all else equal.
    7. The implication of 1-3, and 5: DPS that want to do damage will have higher str/dex and low stamina. DPS that want to tank will have low damage output, but high Con.

    1. Already in game. Both physical pure dps classes can dual wield.
    2, 3, and 5: why reinvent the wheel? Both dual wielding classes have most of their powers checking both weapons for damage. The profile of the power determines attack speed, magnitude per hit, targeting profile, and number of targets hit. Standardizing some but not all of these attributes would render some atwills obsolete and some mandatory. Pass. Standardizing all of these would remove much of the variety from the game. Also pass.
    4. Keyboard and mouse does not have this problem; the at-will continues as long as the button is held. If that is not the case for Xbox, that's a perfectly reasonable thing to ask for.
    6. All else is not equal; your premise is flawed.
    7. This is already basically the state of the game, except that dps do not/should not tank(I see you, Dreadnought), and a dps who went low-damage, -high CON, would not be able to take aggro anyway without the tank threat buff (and the damage loss that comes with it)

    What's the goal, here?
    Thanks for the response. I am on PS4 and have to keep spamming R1 for Sure Strike. It seems that is not the case for PC.

    On 7, I guess I find it odd when I see GWFs with over 200 HP. Either high dps/low HP or low dps/high HP. I am a long time player of EQOA, and recall tanks had "taunt" as the primary mechanism to hold aggro, not damage.
  • kenneth3300kenneth3300 Posts: 2Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    Can you please just retain some of the original destroyer feats on GWF? like the 30% damage increase from Sure strike and IBS and the final feat of the Destroyer build where you get 50% damage for 25 seconds while unstoppable?? That's the only reason why GWF is in the Glory state right now. Without those buffs..they're practically useless..
  • asterdahlasterdahl Posts: 1,234 Member, Cryptic Developer Cryptic Developer

    asterdahl said:

    I haven't had a chance to pop into test the Sentinel yet, but something I've seen about Unstoppable has me a little concerned- unless I'm misreading it, isn't it a net defensive loss? You block everything, your stamina regenerates slower, and there's no buff to damage resistance mentioned. How do you control it to avoid being left with no stamina when it wears off? Does your Determination act as an additional Stamina bar while it's up?

    from what iv'e tested there is a blue guage and by pressing shift you can block in front of you, you can also move and rotate but not attack while blocking. when you release the shift key your blue gauge refills. So it is important to time your blocks to allow for the gauge to refill.
    Right... so what does Unstoppable do when you press Tab? I thought it made you autoblock?

    tab activates unstopable as it did before from what i can tell i'm not sure about autoblock though, i haven't really noticed.
    My understanding is that the new functionality of Unstoppable is as follows:
    "
    Dealing Damage, taking damage, and killing foes increases your Determination Gauge.When the Determination Gauge reaches 50%, you may activate Unstoppable.
    Activating Unstoppable increases the speed of your at-will.
    Added Effect: Automatically block all attacks as long as stamina remains. Stamina Regeneration is reduced.
    Added Effect: Control Immunity
    "

    is that not correct?
    That is correct. I understand your feedback, about being concerned that you might block attacks you don't want to block while using Unstoppable. To be clear though, stamina does not regenerate at all while blocking normally, so a decreased rate of stamina regeneration while Unstoppable is a big survivability increase.

    That said, you will need to use Unstoppable judiciously in a tough boss fight. You don't want to press Unstoppable 10 seconds before a tank buster and get trucked after your stamina got eaten up by auto attacks that should've been healed. Once you've had a chance to try it, I look forward to hearing your feedback.
    I've had a chance to test it, and it's definitely not as bad as I feared.

    I also posted a bunch of feedback, but when I edited the post to clarify wording, the forum ate the whole post. That was... discouraging, so I'll just summarize.


    Sentinel feels like its concepts are mostly in the right place; definitely looking forward to whatever replaces Reaping Strike.
    Can we have Attacks of Opportunity on the flanking-obsessed AI? Being unable to keep more then two mobs from a pack in my forward arc is about the only thing that makes me miss Sprint over Parry.
    Vom Tag strokes are animated like they should be able to hit multiple targets if they overlap; frequency of overlap makes it frustrating when they can't and the "wrong" mob eats the big hit.

    Feats feel really well-designed; I didn't do enough testing to speak to viability, but I've got two barbarian characters, and I expect their Sentinel builds to have relatively little overlap.

    At-wills on tanks still feel undertuned. I've read the rationale for why this would be the case, but speaking as an old leftist, I wouldn't mind shallowing the skill curve on the martial classes if it meant feeling like I was actually accomplishing something with my mouse buttons- especially given that tanks will almost always be running at least one non-damaging encounter power, either for utility or defense. I know I've suggested this elsewhere, but I honestly think that playstyle (blocking, chasing defensive stats, feat selection, power selection) will already do a decent job of keeping tank damage below dps damage, but even if the tank tax stays on encounter and daily powers, taking it off the atwills would be a godsend.
    Thanks for taking the time to try out the Unstoppable changes, and to type up your feedback. I'm sorry the forum ate your post!

    I'll repeat it here, as I've already mentioned it in the Fighter and Paladin threads, but—the 30% damage reduction isn't final, it was basically put there as a very initial rough pass at balancing tank damage. I'll be keeping an eye on performance of various tanks in content, and reducing or removing it as appropriate.

    Ultimately, our goal is that a tank can do around 60-70% of the damage of a similarly geared DPS, playing at a similar skill level, in group content. Accepting numbers a little higher and a little lower than that in cases where they have to use more or less mitigation. We do understand that it can be a bit slower in solo play though, and so, we'll also be considering what improvements can be made there.
  • asterdahlasterdahl Posts: 1,234 Member, Cryptic Developer Cryptic Developer

    asterdahl said:

    @asterdahl
    You problably have already too many stuff on your plate, but there is something that i always wished from Grand Fissure, this power was a replica of Terrifying Impact: Used to prone enemies , and i always wished for Grand Fissure to also prone, but there was another thing if it couldn't prone then it should Stun and Block enemies, in this game Smite there is a God called Thor, this God is able to use one ability that is similar to Grand Fissure. The ability to fissure the ground slowing the enemies and creating a impassable barrier barrier to stop them to briefly procced further, this could be quite a interesting ability on the TANK path to have:

    The ability is shown at 02:00(minute 2)
    This would be one of things that i would see this power being useful, and remotely fun to use as a TANK .




    Cool power! Thanks for sharing it. Unfortunately we don't have the tech to allow players to build walls like this, and with Neverwinter involving a lot more PvE focused content than Smite, where walls could be used to do things like glitch bosses, it probably wouldn't be the best option.

    That being said, I agree that it's horrible that grand fissure is just a reskin of a fighter daily, so I threw it out and rebuilt it. That should actually be one of the changes in this week's build. The new power, "Axestorm" will feature the Barbarian throwing their weapon, which will disappear, and 5 huge spinning red axes will appear and fly forward, shredding up the ground and any enemies in a wide swathe before them. (Slightly wider than Grand Fissure.) This will be a high damage, wide AoE attack, with no added effects, focused on pure AoE damage.

    Let me know how you feel about the power once you get your hands on it this week. Obviously, changes are still on the table for the power, but for now it remains a Blademaster specific power.
    Ok, understandable, would've loved it to block the paths of enemies for a brief moment when they are chasing party members , but since someth else has already been done with it, then i wont argue about it anymore.
    Now going back on the Sentinel Path, it feels like besides FrontLine Surge & Not so Fast, there aren't any AoE DMG Encounters left to be used, and since DPS path gets a stronger AoE in the asset, then maybe swapping Roar for Takedown ?
    Currently the Control aspect of Roar isn't working, it used to Root back in the day, but it used to bypass Immune to CC powers of some classes in PVP, and it used to put their on going Powers in cooldown, this was a weird bug, and Roar was changed to interrupt (doesnt work), anyway if you could have Roar as a Daze instead of a Root (Roar = bad breath makes ppl dizzy, or just Roaring in their ear.. dunno) might work, would be good to have it on the TANK path. I think Bloodletter + IBS as ST can be good enough to have.
    Sure there might be similarities between Daring Shout and Roar animation, but i don't think it's a big problem..
    Axestorm would be slighly similar to Hidden Daggers in animation, maybe not Radius'(maybe hv it changed to Hidden SharpAxes), kinda...
    Also the pull of Come and Get it, is there a chance to make it stronger? it's barerly draggin mobs, would be nice if it would've been a stronger pull.
    Savage Advance is a interesting Daily to use in Single Target, but i always had some problems with it, you can knock your enemy, but if u use it as a Gap closure, like targeting from distance, they can cancel your Daily and have AP consumed, this happened whenever we get Repelled or we target a Rogue and he drops a smokebomb on the ground, if anythin can be done to it, that would be nice
    Spinning Strike, it says u are immune to CC, but i think if a Wizard drops a Iceknife we will be knockbacked and interrupted, also if you have done Epic Lair of Lostmauth, the first mobs before the first boss, they have a similar attack to Spinning Strike, but theirs are slightly pushing you back, if we could get this sort of Spinning Strike, and a slightly raise in Magnitude, cause currently you use Spinning Strike and u go through "solid objects" but if u were to push them mobs then it wouldn't deal as much consistent dmg


    Also thanks for considering the Battle Fury effect..
    Axestorm will be pretty different from hidden daggers, both in form and function, you should be able to check it out tomorrow.

    I agree with you that Sentinel is in dire need of adjustment on many of its powers. And those changes are coming in next week's build. Including the removal of Frontline Surge entirely. It's being replaced with a unique new Barbarian power (that is an AoE.) There are so many changes coming to Sentinel next week that I won't even try to spoil them, as I'd rather people be able to get their hands on the changes themselves, and not color your initial reaction.

    That being said, I tanked Lair of the Mad Mage this evening as a Sentinel, and it felt tremendous. (Maybe a little to tremendous...) I'm confident that Sentinel will be in a much better place after next week's build.
  • asterdahlasterdahl Posts: 1,234 Member, Cryptic Developer Cryptic Developer
    edited March 8

    Another note of BF lets have a little comparison to Hidden Daggers currently if im not mistaken on preview BF is a buff while Hidden Daggers is a debuff.(Don't necessarily understand the dagger to debuff change) That's the one advantage battle fury has over Hidden Daggers currently. But as for the uptime rate, cooldown, and that hidden daggers actually deals dmg n' battle fury doesn't make up for it in it's buffing duration, diminishing effect, dmg increase and cooldown.

    With a power like Battlefury that is a group wide buff, we do have to balance it around its performance in a group. Since this isn't something that the original Neverwinter design team really took into consideration, it can be a bit jarring and there is some degree of sticker shock with the potency of the effects.

    That being said, in a group setting, I think Battlefury is pretty powerful, but I'll certainly be examining it closely now that I'm moving on to Blademaster adjustments. I see that some people feel passionately about the mechanic having an inverted effect, so I'll seriously consider adjustments to make it more interesting.
    Post edited by asterdahl on
  • violencebf22violencebf22 Posts: 25Member Arc User
    There are a few questions about my favorite class. 1 since we are playing as a class in Dnd for barbarians 1d12 for each level, the biggest health boost is it possible to implement this in the game? 2 Armor: Light Armor, Medium Armor, Shields and I know that you saved the right of the barbarians to wear the heavy armor that they now wear, is it possible to weaken the barbarian in the Swordmaster branch because of this? for example -10% defense? After all, with a lot of health and huge damage should be a minus. 3 all barbarians are united by one thing - their rage. Unbridled, unquenchable and thoughtless anger. Not just an emotion, their rage is like the ferocity of a predator cornered, like a ruthless blow of a hurricane, like storm shafts of the ocean"The rage of some of them stems from communicating with the ferocious spirits of animals. Others draw it from anger to the full of pain and suffering reality. But for every barbarian, rage is not only a source of fighting madness, but also incredible reflexes, resilience, and unmatched strength." I mean that at the moment the rage is very weak perhaps it should be corrected by that it will last longer but after it there will be a weakness for the barbarian. Someone has already written in another topic that at the moment a character with a sword and shield does more damage than a huge double ax or sword I understand that because of the concept of the game, the barbarian is stronger than anyone else in the melee but it should bebut it is also necessary to pay something for high damage, for example, the impossibility of being more functional, for example, not being able to buff or heal or benefit the group. The barbarian is about the fact that you are rushing furiously at a flock of enemies with a huge sword and it does not fit the concept of multifunctionality which was discussed on the stream (taking the example of a paladin) therefore, we are very worried about our favorite class and believe that it is in the right hands. P.s. https://goo.gl/images/7ZH3D7
  • gromovnipljesak#8234 gromovnipljesak Posts: 954Member Arc User
    edited March 8
    Heh, Swordmaster. Anyhoo, will we get any form of power that helps our group survive on Sentinel?


    Also, offtopic but those highest tier boons are... well, let's just say I'd rather have another row of weakened Tier 1 boons than that, to be completely honest.


    Heh, Swordmaster. Anyhoo, will we get any form of power that helps our group survive on Sentinel?


    Also, offtopic but those highest tier boons are... well, let's just say I'd rather have another row of weakened Tier 1 boons than that, to be completely honest
  • gestrisagestrisa Posts: 9Member Arc User
    Hello their 12.7K From live.

    Upon entering preview the things that "bugged" me was Weapon Master's strike only hits one target in the first swipe. I'm not sure if it's as intended as the tooltip only says "target enemy" but to be honest if that's the case the animation shouldn't be a giant swipe. It feels very un-intuitive. However, if it's multiple hits then yeah it's currently broken.

    Other than that Vanrakdoom's power spike is way too high IMO even with the quest given gear (which has me currently at 16.3k IL). All other areas were manageable but my Barbie has been melting to Vanrakdoom's 3 shar cultists alone. It wouldn't be much a problem if I could burst them down with encounters but it takes 3 rotations of all my encounters to clear a group but by the 1st rotation I've already used my health stone and by the 3rd rotation I'm almost dead or dead, especially if my companion or I accidentally draw in other mobs.

    I agree to most people that Barbie's are currently underwhelming in the DPS area especially since it's supposed to be a melee dps class. The Fighter's encouters hit harder and their feats just leave Barbie's encounters in the dust. I've noticed that the Feats are designed to encourage more At-Will usage which goes against the current philosophy of making encounters more meaningful and making At-Wills weaker. It also doesn't help that the one feat that has good synergy with this philosphy i.e. Offensive Recovery is locked at level 80.

    In fact the current design Philosophy of MOD 16 is in essence against how Great Weapon Fighters were originally designed:
    HEAVY SUSTAIN DAMAGE through AT-WILL spams. That's what increased attack speed is for. Nerfing Barbarian At-Wills also nerfs Unstoppable/Berserker's Rage which overall is a double whammy.


    If I were to suggest you guys might have to:

    buff At-Wills which goes against the current direction the game is headed or

    redesign Berserker's Rage to be Encounters focused or

    Replace some feats to be similar to Offensive Recovery i.e. At-Wills giving buffs to encounter powers or (what I'd like to really see)

    Feedback loops between At-Wills and Encounters i.e. At-Wills building stacks for encounters and vice versa all leading up to a nuke at the final stack.

    or something cool I guess.... players never really know what they want till' they get it.
  • fenrir4lifefenrir4life Posts: 295Member Arc User

    Here are some suggestions from a NW newbie.

    1. DPS classes should get dual wield.
    2. DPS classes' At-Will should strike 2x if using a two-hander and 4x if dual wielding.
    3. Non-DPS classes At-Wills strike twice; this should be slower than the strikes from a DPS using a two-hander. Non-DPS cannot dual wield weapons.
    4. Spamming R1 for At-Wills is annoying. Holding down R1 or R2 to initate At-Wills makes sense. (Or make it push for on/push for off.)
    5. All At-Wills should have the same base damage per strike. These can be modified by Str and Dex (for crits).
    6. The implication of #5 is: DPS, which strike twice (four times) when using two-hander (dual-wielding) do more damage than non DPS classes, all else equal.
    7. The implication of 1-3, and 5: DPS that want to do damage will have higher str/dex and low stamina. DPS that want to tank will have low damage output, but high Con.

    1. Already in game. Both physical pure dps classes can dual wield.
    2, 3, and 5: why reinvent the wheel? Both dual wielding classes have most of their powers checking both weapons for damage. The profile of the power determines attack speed, magnitude per hit, targeting profile, and number of targets hit. Standardizing some but not all of these attributes would render some atwills obsolete and some mandatory. Pass. Standardizing all of these would remove much of the variety from the game. Also pass.
    4. Keyboard and mouse does not have this problem; the at-will continues as long as the button is held. If that is not the case for Xbox, that's a perfectly reasonable thing to ask for.
    6. All else is not equal; your premise is flawed.
    7. This is already basically the state of the game, except that dps do not/should not tank(I see you, Dreadnought), and a dps who went low-damage, -high CON, would not be able to take aggro anyway without the tank threat buff (and the damage loss that comes with it)

    What's the goal, here?
    Thanks for the response. I am on PS4 and have to keep spamming R1 for Sure Strike. It seems that is not the case for PC.

    On 7, I guess I find it odd when I see GWFs with over 200 HP. Either high dps/low HP or low dps/high HP. I am a long time player of EQOA, and recall tanks had "taunt" as the primary mechanism to hold aggro, not damage.
    Barbarians can tank now, friend.

    Furthermore, "taunt" based tanking is... not fun. I'll take threat multipliers over hard taunts as the building block of a system, any day. Even so, tanks, by design, do less damage than DPS (the dev for all three tank classes said their ballpark is tanks doing 60-70% of the damage that dps do, and their feat, power, and feature design is all intended to support this target) and have boosted threat to compensate.
  • lazaroth666lazaroth666 Posts: 1,332Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited March 8
    @asterdahl

    I'm excited to test the changes in the next build. Is it possible to add a source of Combat Advantage to the barbarian either as a class feature or a feat?
    fkze9t.jpg
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  • chemjeffchemjeff Posts: 434Member Arc User
    asterdahl said:

    Shhh—don't tell the other classes but you guys are the best. This is definitely the most positive thread I have the privilege of interacting with right now, and I appreciate everyone's chipper attitude.

    This week will only feature a few changes, but I hope to have a lot more addressed next week—I don't think you'll be disappointed. And again, I'd like to thank you all for your patience.

    I hope so. Because as things stand now, I feel like I have wasted 10 mods building up my GWF.
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