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Impossible to play dungeons. Fix kicking and penalty system.
dolrey
Member Posts: 741 Arc User
This thread was created 2 months ago so it is not that actual as before. Our technical support informed us that there is ban for leaving dungeon using portal or for staying afc (if somebody will complain about that in support). So number of trolls greatly decreased. But some points still can be tuned a bit.
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Hello. In random queue there are the following problems:
1) Team can't kick somebody before X minutes in dungeon.
-This allows to different trolls to stay out of starting circle and not letting to players to start for example fight with demogorgon. Or they just leave dungeon using vip portal (still staying in party) or stay afc so we have fight without one player. It just waste time. I would not be so problematic if it would happen once per weak or something like that. But in practice it happens in 50% of trying to queue in dungeon.
-So let us kick player immediately please. No one wants to kick usual players but we should be able to kick trolls.
2) Team can't kick troll after some time in dungeon.
-Very often before last boss somebody in team just stay afc or leave so we can't start fighting with boss (because that player is not in circle) and we can't kick that troll because system protects him. And we only can to leave the instance without getting a reward. It happens too often to close eyes on this.
-Let us kick troll whenever it is needed please.
3) Voting for exit from instance can be started only after 15!! minutes.
-Often team understand that dungeon can't be completed with these characters. But everyone still have to wait 15!! minutes. Do you even know how annoying it is? And it happens so often..
-Could you please let us to leave dungeon whenever we want. Because now system is only annoying
4) Voting for kicking can be started on one character only one per 4 hours. FOUR hours!! Who came up with it at all?!
-Sometimes when there is troll in your team and everyone have kicking in cooldown all players have to wait 15 minutes before starting voting for leaving instance. Comeon...
-Let us kick trolls whenever we want.
5) Leaving queue causes 30 min penalty.
-Very often when dungeons evidently can't be completed and you team of new players just die again and again having 0 damage you just can't leave this sinking ship just because of that penalty..
-Let us leave hopeless instances whenever we want.
In the end of this thread I would like to say that for about 4 years of playing this game (before these changes in kicking system etc) I had NEVER been kicked after last boss or something like that. I had never faced with trolls in dungeons because I was able to press few buttons to kick troll.
But not only have I play broken content I also have to face with this annoying broken system protecting trolls almost in 50% of random queues.. Fix this please.
______
This thread was created 2 months ago so it is not that actual as before. Our technical support informed us that there is ban for leaving dungeon using portal or for staying afc (if somebody will complain about that in support). So number of trolls greatly decreased. But some points still can be tuned a bit.
______
Hello. In random queue there are the following problems:
1) Team can't kick somebody before X minutes in dungeon.
-This allows to different trolls to stay out of starting circle and not letting to players to start for example fight with demogorgon. Or they just leave dungeon using vip portal (still staying in party) or stay afc so we have fight without one player. It just waste time. I would not be so problematic if it would happen once per weak or something like that. But in practice it happens in 50% of trying to queue in dungeon.
-So let us kick player immediately please. No one wants to kick usual players but we should be able to kick trolls.
2) Team can't kick troll after some time in dungeon.
-Very often before last boss somebody in team just stay afc or leave so we can't start fighting with boss (because that player is not in circle) and we can't kick that troll because system protects him. And we only can to leave the instance without getting a reward. It happens too often to close eyes on this.
-Let us kick troll whenever it is needed please.
3) Voting for exit from instance can be started only after 15!! minutes.
-Often team understand that dungeon can't be completed with these characters. But everyone still have to wait 15!! minutes. Do you even know how annoying it is? And it happens so often..
-Could you please let us to leave dungeon whenever we want. Because now system is only annoying
4) Voting for kicking can be started on one character only one per 4 hours. FOUR hours!! Who came up with it at all?!
-Sometimes when there is troll in your team and everyone have kicking in cooldown all players have to wait 15 minutes before starting voting for leaving instance. Comeon...
-Let us kick trolls whenever we want.
5) Leaving queue causes 30 min penalty.
-Very often when dungeons evidently can't be completed and you team of new players just die again and again having 0 damage you just can't leave this sinking ship just because of that penalty..
-Let us leave hopeless instances whenever we want.
In the end of this thread I would like to say that for about 4 years of playing this game (before these changes in kicking system etc) I had NEVER been kicked after last boss or something like that. I had never faced with trolls in dungeons because I was able to press few buttons to kick troll.
But not only have I play broken content I also have to face with this annoying broken system protecting trolls almost in 50% of random queues.. Fix this please.
______
This thread was created 2 months ago so it is not that actual as before. Our technical support informed us that there is ban for leaving dungeon using portal or for staying afc (if somebody will complain about that in support). So number of trolls greatly decreased. But some points still can be tuned a bit.
Post edited by dolrey on
5
Comments
for example:
#1 - inspect your newly joined party member, not a super high ilevel or doesn't have BIS equip or is not desired dps class etc - kick to get someone better
#2 - exactly the opposite of what you are requesting. end boss at 20% hp left. kick party member - no loot. was abused by a bunch of guilds to stop randoms from getting stuff.
#3 - same as #1 but occasionally people would attempt stuff and then kick if that one person died
#4 - was put in to stop the abusing or rules 1-3
#5 - was put in to stop abusing Queue jumping. For example when running random expert queue why run CR instead of Tong for the AD. if CR pops just abandon and re-queue. which hoses the other 4 in your group.
Trolling is a lot better now that was previously before these rules were implemented. The only place where there are issues are the lower level stuff that take only 5 minutes to run normally (IE dread legion, master of hunt, cta's, etc)
I think there are better solutions such as:
1) Realistic IL gates for public queues;
2) Give the same AD awards for private queuing and specific dungeon/trial queuing as for random queues;
I thought the current random queue/AD reward system was a bad idea when implemented and I said so. Several mods of experience with it have not changed my mind.
The 4-hour cooldown on kicking is about right. I haven't seen anyone try to kick a lowbie on sight. And the 15 minute wait to vote abandon is also about right. Abandon votes coming earlier are more likely to fail because newer players can be more optimistic and think they can happy-talk their way pass orcus in ToNG. They may need a fail or two to encourage throwing in the towel.
Sadly, the kick system is needed so players can be more civil to others.
Again, trolls exist because they want to get kicked to avoid the penalty. If penalty if given no matter how the player leaves a run and there will be no trolls.
Some people want perfect.
They have no time for someone that dies once, even if four of them are level capped and the one that dies is of proper level for the instance.
"Clearly you are not worthy".
"You will only slow us down because your speed isn't capped".
"We are all at the end waiting for you. Why should we have to wait for you to run back through the instance, having to fight enemies that we didn't clear because our speed made it unnecessary"?
And so if the game offers at-will kicking then players will happily kick anyone that doesn't fit their image of "worthiness".
They had to put some limits in. They had to.
Arguing to remove limits is asking for this abuse of kicking power to return.
It may be sad but it's true.
The best solution may be to reduce leaving penalties while expanding what qualifies as leaving.
You get DCed? You are removed from the party. You leave the dungeon? You are removed from the party.
Sometimes those DCs are legit, but what can be done? You take the reduced penalty, whatever that is, and give it another try.
At least the people that are trying to run will be given a better chance at finding people that want to be there while still trying to protect players from kick-happy groups.
Search the forum archives.
I've seen the "More kicking!"/"Less kicking!" forum outcry pendulum swing for >5 years.
Anyone here remember original CN? Players were kicked after the last boss before getting their chest.
Outcry. Kick restrictions.
A few years later camping was rampant. Outcry. Kick expansion.
A year later there was rampant leavers. Outcry. Leaver penalty.
But the leaver penalty was harsh and too broad and unfair. Outcry. Leavery penalty was restricted.
Then people were getting vote-kicked at the start for item level discrimination. Outcry. Kick locked on timer.
And so the pendulum swings on.
We keep complaining in opposite directions. They make blunt changes in opposite directions that never make anyone happy.
Currently, it's not terrible. I say leave it as is.
We have to choose our battles.
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What I would like to see is a create a queue system where anyone can create a party queue, give it a descriptive name, pick from a list what you are queuing for (even campaigns or events), pick from a list certain options for this group (shared gold pick up, no green pick up, disconnects are dropped after 2 minutes, item level restrictions, etc). And allow these groups to pull their daily AD for runs. You could still have strait up random queues if you want for runs and events, but putting in a better party creation mechanic would be a god sent.
It "fixes" a problem that never existed in the first place while creating two much bigger ones.
Let's recap what the penalty does:
1) When one wants to leave, he'll just go offline/afk waiting to be kicked (or worse, he'll start playing bad on purpose, causing wipes left and right), Keeping the whole team with less players for a while. If they could leave right away, without penalty, the team could start looking for replacements much sooner.
2) When there's a boss that is a bit too difficult for the current team, when one player wants to leave he WILL START A VOTE TO ABANDON INSTANCE, and, if it succeeds, it will force everyone else to leave as well, even those who want to stay and try to finish the dungeon with replacement members.
Leavers penalty and Vote to Abandon have to go, they stifle progression artificially for EVERYONE in the public queue, while providing no actual benefit to ANYONE. Let the quitters leave, the stayers will replace them.
Here's what they should do:
1) Remove Leavers penalty.
2) Remove Vote to Abandon Instance feature.
3) Reduce cooldown of vote kick from 4 hours to 5 minutes.
And the situation would DRAMATICALLY improve. For everyone.
IT SIMPLY DOES NOT WORK.
It's a cure that does more harm than the disease, that's what it is.
Also, it might be not harmful to remind, that back then when there was no quitter's penalty, there was also a different queue system that made it harder to request reinforcements to replace those who had left and was sometimes even buggy. (it stopped working after a while)
Vote kick was also implemented differently than toay (in fact it didnt even exist in the first mods).
The fix is really simple. Give penalty no matter how one leaves. With no way to avoid penalty, either endure if the run can be done, or cut your losses and leave. There is no guarantee in PUGing.
Take a disconnect for example, you'd give a penalty for someone who has a sudden disconnect? That can happen, and probably has happened to everyone. Where is the logic in that? Cause if you don't, all that an abuser has to do has to emulate it via alt+f4 or interrupting the process.
And that's not all. Because an abuser who wants to avoid the penalty might go afk and wait for the vote kick. There is no leave there. You're gonna give quitters penalty to those who are kicked too? This would open the feature to an incredible level of abuse and griefing, and it would definitely be a bad idea.
And finally, you cannot force to stay someone who does not want to stay, "punishing them" is not really punishing them at all. You're punishing the players who are staying, as I already explained above. No matter what you do, THOSE are the players you are really hitting, the ones inside the dungeon, not the one who just left and either avoided the penalty entirely or took it and LAUGHED at it.
Please, refrain from giving suggestions that would cause more harm than good to the vast majority of the player base.
Who is forcing who to stay? Everyone is free to leave, just take the penalty.
Unfortunately, rules are required for players to be civil to each other. laissez-faire policy means rampant abuse.
And the "no one kicks except trolls and not able to finish boss" sentence is just plain false. Vote kicks happen for various reasons. Sometimes people even ask to be kicked directly so they can avoid the penalty (and people comply to the request). And what does it accomplish then? Nothing. The penalty, in theory, should be an incentive to stay. If it's bypassed or just taken, then it fails its original purpose and it just leaves open a door for abuse for those who intend to bypass it.
The fact is that the penalty has not proven to be an incentive to stay and finish the instance, at all. Rampant abuse is what we have right now. And it's what we will always have until we have this penalty put in place. It will not change no matter what you do. It's the penalty that it's giving the incentive to game it. It's the penalty that is driving all of the abusers to go afk, go offline, play bad on purpose, ecc... And it's the penalty that is driving the late-game quitters to FORCE the ABANDON INSTANCE into everyone else because they don't want to take the penalty.