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[DISCUSSION] New Mod = Ideal time for a small change in PVP!
ayroux
Member Posts: 4,271 Arc User
I have been reading these recent Developer Blogs. I have some renewed hope for Neverwinter - specifically PVP as I have seen an easy to implement Path they can take to bring some balance to PVP for ALL players - New, Seasoned, Casual, etc....
I have posted before, how a "Best in Slot" player can have easily 2-3x the sheer # of stats that an average or casual player can have, through all the SH boons, Campaign boons, enchants, Artifact Equipment, Artifacts, etc.
I saw this one post specifically https://www.arcgames.com/en/games/neverwinter/news/detail/11093133-developer-blog:-item-level-&-scaling
Talking about item level scaling. This seems like a MUCH better formula for content scaling and something that can be introduced to PVP to make it much more enjoyable for ALL players.
So here is my request to @nitocris83 (Julia).
Can we introduce this new "scaling" to PVP as well? Where we target an "item level" so that those UNDER it get boosted up, and those OVER it are boosted DOWN? Maybe they target something like 15,000 Item Level or something for PVP. (Side Note: It would be cool to see this 'adjustment' also happen in trade of blades as well as in actual Domination so we could do some battle-prep in trade of blades knowing what our adjusted stats would be).
This way, PVP power progression takes on a more "horizontal" form than a "vertical" form. Where those who have access to more stats, would simply have more "options" on how to allocate their stats, but in theory everyone has about the same overall # of stat pool to chose from? (Assuming I am reading this post correctly).
So this is a way to create Item Level Scaling where that player who has tens of thousands of more stats than the casual player, gets put on a more "even playing field" for PVP purposes.
With the removal of Lifesteal/Recovery and many of the other changes. Now is a GREAT time to "standardize" PVP in some form.
This would make ALL the PVP Content much more accessible to ALL players and not basically reserve it just for the "hardcore PVP" crowd who can out-gear and 1v5 entire teams of players due to their item level difference.
Thanks!
I have posted before, how a "Best in Slot" player can have easily 2-3x the sheer # of stats that an average or casual player can have, through all the SH boons, Campaign boons, enchants, Artifact Equipment, Artifacts, etc.
I saw this one post specifically https://www.arcgames.com/en/games/neverwinter/news/detail/11093133-developer-blog:-item-level-&-scaling
Talking about item level scaling. This seems like a MUCH better formula for content scaling and something that can be introduced to PVP to make it much more enjoyable for ALL players.
So here is my request to @nitocris83 (Julia).
Can we introduce this new "scaling" to PVP as well? Where we target an "item level" so that those UNDER it get boosted up, and those OVER it are boosted DOWN? Maybe they target something like 15,000 Item Level or something for PVP. (Side Note: It would be cool to see this 'adjustment' also happen in trade of blades as well as in actual Domination so we could do some battle-prep in trade of blades knowing what our adjusted stats would be).
This way, PVP power progression takes on a more "horizontal" form than a "vertical" form. Where those who have access to more stats, would simply have more "options" on how to allocate their stats, but in theory everyone has about the same overall # of stat pool to chose from? (Assuming I am reading this post correctly).
So this is a way to create Item Level Scaling where that player who has tens of thousands of more stats than the casual player, gets put on a more "even playing field" for PVP purposes.
With the removal of Lifesteal/Recovery and many of the other changes. Now is a GREAT time to "standardize" PVP in some form.
This would make ALL the PVP Content much more accessible to ALL players and not basically reserve it just for the "hardcore PVP" crowd who can out-gear and 1v5 entire teams of players due to their item level difference.
Thanks!
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Recovery is not even the main issue in PVP. Recovery and Self Healing were ONE of the issues but the fact remains, the difference in "power" between the average player, and a "Best In Slot" PVP player is the MAIN ISSUE.
The reason that MANY "PVPers" have quit Neverwinter, is because of this. It may be fun for a little while but eventually you get sick of being able to 3v1 opponents on a node. You want more challenge, you want to see it be a competitive environment again.
Many other successful MMOs that have incoorperated PVP have moved to this more "standardization" PVP model. Games like Guild Wards 2, or even WOW as two examples in this genre of games.
Other games like Destiny 2 or even Warframe have also done the same. Removed many of the Vertical Power Progressions from PVE in PVP to make it more of a standard "levelized" playing field.
If you want more people playing PVP, you ultimately have to reconcile the issue of "gear gap" between NEW players, CASUAL players, PVE players, and PVP players in PVP.
There SHOULD and WILL always be a difference in terms of gear choice and build diversity, but the amount of vertical gear gap, where 1 player has 2-3x the stats of a new/average player needs to be looked at.
My suggestion here would be PERFECT SOLUTION to this problem, but them having a "target item level" for PVP that all players get adjusted to (UP OR DOWN) to level the playing field.
This would give you the closest thing to "naked PVP" - which I assume you dont ACTUALLY mean naked PVP but as you said "trimmed down gear wise PVP".
I 100% agree with you, and rather then them have to reinvent new systems to do this, why not take advantage of this new system they are already reworking into the game. Item Level Scaling?
> i suspect pvp will be changed, for example armorpen vs defence formula gets changed for pve and thus will have to change for pvp too. Entire class rebalance and role rebalance will have effect on pvp too. Honestly i wish they change as little in terms of PvP as possible and go with class rebalance, and simply wait 1-2 months to see semblence of how things work with new things, and implement changes from there. Many PvP problems came from recovery and that will be gone now, Im looking forward to what happens next.
>
> Yes PVP will undoubtedly change, but the reality is, you will now have 30k+ item level players, playing against 12k item level players. This is already happening TODAY even, but item level isnt as fair of a metric as they are making it.
>
> Recovery is not even the main issue in PVP. Recovery and Self Healing were ONE of the issues but the fact remains, the difference in "power" between the average player, and a "Best In Slot" PVP player is the MAIN ISSUE.
>
> The reason that MANY "PVPers" have quit Neverwinter, is because of this. It may be fun for a little while but eventually you get sick of being able to 3v1 opponents on a node. You want more challenge, you want to see it be a competitive environment again.
>
> Many other successful MMOs that have incoorperated PVP have moved to this more "standardization" PVP model. Games like Guild Wards 2, or even WOW as two examples in this genre of games.
>
> Other games like Destiny 2 or even Warframe have also done the same. Removed many of the Vertical Power Progressions from PVE in PVP to make it more of a standard "levelized" playing field.
>
> If you want more people playing PVP, you ultimately have to reconcile the issue of "gear gap" between NEW players, CASUAL players, PVE players, and PVP players in PVP.
>
> There SHOULD and WILL always be a difference in terms of gear choice and build diversity, but the amount of vertical gear gap, where 1 player has 2-3x the stats of a new/average player needs to be looked at.
>
> My suggestion here would be PERFECT SOLUTION to this problem, but them having a "target item level" for PVP that all players get adjusted to (UP OR DOWN) to level the playing field.
>
> i personally wish, that pvp would be naked. or made with premade set of gears. lets say 10 different items for each item slot, each having different bonus. unlocking with progression, not better. but different offering more choices. could be that push to try new things. It is sickening when i see TR 1shot someone with a cloud of steel, or when new player keeps hitting me when im alttabed, and i lose no health and he dies to reflect.
You cannot get one shot with cloud of steel.
1) Just because "Item Level Scaling" could exist for PVP that doesnt mean gear WOULDNT come into play. You would still have TONS of options to decide from in terms of how you want your stats allocated. I also am not a believer that this will equalize everyone 100%. If a 30k Item Level player and a 15k Item Level player were both equalized at 15k. My GUESS is the 30k Item Level player will still have PLENTY of stat benefit over the 15k item level player.
If you read the post, Item Level scaling DOESNT mean "make everyones stats the same" what it means is it will try its best to SCALE the higher level player down to the lower level player as best as it can. There will still be things like enchants, that have fixed effects that my GUESS is will not scale (example being a Negation Enchant). You also have much more options in terms of gear choices, to pick and chose state allocation from, which means you can min/max much better again making your build synergize more.
2) I would argue that Item Level Scaling isnt asking for "perfectly balanced PVP". Its simply asking for MORE balanced PVP than what we see today. Which right now, we are in a REALLY bad spot. Imagine if you would, if CS:GO didnt have millions of players but just had like 100 active players. Now insert Shroud into this community.
Now imagine you, wanting to play and get good at the game but constantly getting matched against Shroud. Who you cant even kill ONCE.
Now let me ask you this. "How long is this going to be fun for BOTH parties?"
- Shroud would get bored due to lack of "competition" in the game and move on.
- YOU would get bored because no matter what you do, you cant overcome how much better Shroud is than you. You stand no chance.
This is PRECISELY the issue we see in Neverwinter, except instead of "SKILL" being the difference, its Item Level.
You have players that stand ZERO chance, simply based on their lower item level, lack of gear, etc.
You have players that are almost GUARANTEED to win simply based on their items....
This is not a good PVP environment for anyone.
So back to your initial statement. Do you think that some "middle ground" would be appropriate? Where gear mattered SOME but skill also mattered SOME and in theory, shouldnt you be able to take a super "skilled" player on a lower item level character and stand a CHANCE against an UNSKILLED higher item level character?
When Skill CANNOT overcome gear. This is where I have a problem with PVP.
I dont mind "gear gap" and some players who have worked hard having an advantage over others.
What I DO mind is when Item Level > ANY amount of skill. Where no matter how good you are, it doesnt matter unless you have put in the same time and have the same items as a player who has played for years....
My proposal, solves this issue.
Thanks
I do think PVP can be revived in this game, but it would take some sort of "equalization" for PVP purposes as well as supported leaderboards/tournaments.
Long ago they had the NCL (Neverwinter Combat League) that had a special Prize Mount for the top X of each class. I had that mount and sold it for 10m+ AD (cant remember exact amount) but I know I was loving PVP back then.
If they equalized PVP via this "item level scaling" mechanic they have re-addressed in the game. Then bring back the leaderboards as well as a NCL type event again. I could see PVP rising from the ashes.
The PVE in Neverwinter isnt bad. The combat is fun. So I do think people could come back, with a little investment from the DEVs.
I thought cryptic fixed the control crowd issue but it seems much worse compared to mod 12.
Tanks running around with 97% DR and 80% deflect chance with high dps lol.
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... stay positive!
> I saw a few people on here a little while back saying that they should just shut down pvp, and i thought that was a bit extreme and just a hot take. But I honestly think if we want any chance of pvp being worthwhile, then they need to release a new game and shut down Neverwinter entirely. Even if they want to use the same game engine. No one wants to come into an old game's pvp scene, especially when it's heavily pay to win. And as long as solo queue is the only real option for playing pvp because there are not enough players for other queues, then pvp will stay dead.
>
> Yeah you are likely correct on this. Making a "Neverwinter 2" is better however lots of the PVE players would quit with how many hours they have invested in their characters.
>
> I do think PVP can be revived in this game, but it would take some sort of "equalization" for PVP purposes as well as supported leaderboards/tournaments.
>
> Long ago they had the NCL (Neverwinter Combat League) that had a special Prize Mount for the top X of each class. I had that mount and sold it for 10m+ AD (cant remember exact amount) but I know I was loving PVP back then.
>
> If they equalized PVP via this "item level scaling" mechanic they have re-addressed in the game. Then bring back the leaderboards as well as a NCL type event again. I could see PVP rising from the ashes.
>
> The PVE in Neverwinter isnt bad. The combat is fun. So I do think people could come back, with a little investment from the DEVs.
>
> I'm sure there would be a lot of attention seeking people 'threatening' to never play another Cryptic game again if they shut Neverwinter down, but it's safe to assume at least 90% of them would, in fact, play the new game. However, it comes down to what's profitable for Cryptic. If Neverwinter is still lucrative for them, then there's not much incentive to release a new game given their history of laziness and negligence. Any future changes to Neverwinter's pvp will be the equivalent of polishing a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. And I mean 'polishing' in the loosest sense of the word.
>
> ... stay positive!
Reasons why im likely done with NW once the mod hits. I'll try it but it seems bad so far. I only pvp anyway. These changes look very bad for pvp unless you're a support class
I actually thing SOME of these changes could be good for PVP, it just requires some decent balancing around effective health pools, outgoing damage, and balancing teams on each side.
I remember when tenacity was first introduced, it was the solution to another similar problem they fixed - self healing via Regen.
Regen used to be THE primary source of self healing in the game. They wanted to remove the self healing players got, and ended up cutting it in HALF via "heal depression" in PVP, but then on the flip side they gave everyone "tenacity" to increase their effective HP pool.
I wonder if it would require similar "balancing" today to make PVP viable again. Increase the innate "damage resistance" players have versus each other - now that players cannot self sustain as well anymore.
The issue here, is they dont care about PVP so eventhough these changes may "pave a way" to make PVP viable again, it likely wouldnt come for another 1-2 modules if at all.
So it seems like we may be entering another "dark ages" of PVP akin to modules 4-5 when PVP was in a REALLY bad spot....
So I do think its possible.
It just requires them to approach PVP more of a way those other games have I think. WOW/ESO/GW2 have all sought to "minimize" the impact GEAR has in PVP. Most of the time it doesnt mean REMOVE gear altogether, just minimize the "power gap" from the average player to the "Best in slot" player.
I think if you do this, it makes PVP much more accessible to more players, and then that enables you to re-build a PVP community using the current player base who right now, has likely been turned off to PVP due to the "get BIS gear or GTFO" style PVP Neverwinter has almost always had in its history.
There seems to be this really idiotic idea that if you mitigated "Gear Gap" in PVP somehow people wont pay and the game will lose revenue. I whole heartedly believe the opposite. When you make PVP more accessible to more people, more players partake in PVP. Other games have proven PVPers are willing to spend a FORTUNE simply for cosmetic sake, AS WELL AS even the minuscule "power" difference.
If a player can pay 20M AD for 1% more of some stat, there will be people that do that, even if it has next to ZERO impact on actual PVP Play.
A good example I can provide is Movement Enchants in your Utility Slot.
I always sought to have the BEST possible gear, but even I didnt go nuts with maxing out these utility slots for movement. I remember back when Enchants only went to level 10, and even 12. I would usually sit at 1-2 below max. There were guys paying millions of AD, for even just 2-3% more "movement" which in a foot race, the difference was almost laughable.... but they still paid for that.
Long story short. I actually think minimizing "gear" impact in PVP (not removing it but minimizing it) will lead to GREATER sales since itll get more people involved in PVP who are more likely to pay for minuscule impacts for thier character.
When you have MASSIVE "gear impact" in PVP all that does is turn people away for it being not "competitive" enough.
1. there seems to be no feedback threat about PVP actually ?
2. Actually tanks like GF, GWF, OP can block up to unlimited 80% of incoming damage and are cc immunity by raising the shield (just invest into staminagain).
They have an innate 30% damagereduction all time and a higher mobility from feature or mechanics (GWF/GF) than most classes.
They are either immun to cc by blocking or cc-immun+blocking all incoming damage by going Unstoppable for example, so in the sum near all time -> block or go rage (GWF)
They have similar focus damage and better cc-abilities on top compared to a striker class.
They can oneshoot you from distance (OP) with 3000 magnitude dailies.
Did I forgot anything to mention? Ah, yes they have better burst options actually also
Do you have any idea how PVP will look like in mod 16 for a Hunter, Wizard, Warlock or DC ?
At this state there is no need to even discuss PVP (obvious, no option to do so).
And thinking about PVP should look like this: "Do I like to chose a GWF a GF or a Paladin.. or that perma broken TR (mentioned above)?", from wich Sentinel GWF looks most tempting to me tbh.
As underlined above, some classes have all tools compared to others in theory... if not TR just oneshots all in the end
1 use insta cc, and then 1shot
2 just dodgem and you are free for 2min becouse thats how daily recharges
Anyway, my actual statement is still valid (above)
1. Class: 80% shield, 30% innate DR, cc Immunity 24/7 (esp Sent GWF), better cc, better mobility, better burst and better selfheal.. aaand actually deals 3x the damage of class 2
2. Class: no shield, no 30% DR, short cc-immunity-frames, bad cc abilities, lower mobility , no burst, no selfheal
Guess who wins the race?
If this goes life you don´t have to come to NWO to play PVP, this is a 100% exodus I assure you
Is tenacity (crit reduction / armor pen reduction / healing depression etc )actually built into character sheets anymore via hidden values in mod 16 ?
sounds like someone is trying to poke fun yet does not know what they are talking about ...
and in some cases a game breaking advantage against certain classes and those that teleport /dodge
this also means you can never get combat advantage against some one cause they always face you no matter where you dodge / you cant get behind a Gfs guard etc
the second you blink out of dodge you are locked on t/ auto hit when out of immunity frame no matter which direction you picked .. and no speed to separate the distance ...once speed boosted gf or gfw close in you are done
there is no counter play to that
This is a lot of "good" pvp players dirty little secrets
hard target locking needs to be removed from the code a complete hamster skill/code
1.access to combat log file via act
2. all thier buffs visible on the screen at once
3. can jump and attack in combat / more maneuverability
4. access to hard target lock
5 setting the screen resolution to super wide / see around corners / behind you better / harder to flank /longer viewing distance in open world pvp ..depending on graphic card
6. keyboard/ mouse support /console have it now in limited fashion
these effects adds disadvantage / advantage to some classes by a very high margin