I'm kind of happy that they have finally given up on class names like "Trickster Rogue" and "Control Wizard" when it seemed apparent long ago that we would likely never see any other type of rogue, wizard, ranger, etc. make an appearance in the game. This was a thing that I had commented on several times before.
Now with these changes not only can they really give us a choice between the type of rogue or wizard or ranger or whatever that we want to be, but it makes it easier to introduce new classes in that balancing the existing classes was supposed to be a big part of what was holding that up.
Also, not that I am really a fan, but the GWF should have been the Barbarian from the start. Going forward they will hopefully make the Barbarian armors look more like "barbarian armors". Those that want the more classic GWF look will still be able to change appearances using some of the existing gear to achieve that.
I still don't understand the tanky stuff. I mean: either the shield would refresh itself pretty fast, or it would not mean anything at all, would it? And if a second hit in that example actually harms the tank and destroys the shield, the third does what? Kills? That does not sound like perspective tanking. Not to say that it would mean that one shot kills would be quite common in that case. I am really curious how they will make this work.
I think that they were just using numbers for the examples, not making any claims that enemies would be inflicting the tanks full HP amount as damage on a regular basis.
In any event, I suspect that the tank options will include methods for recharging their guard, and healers may have powers that can help them out as well.
> > Sounds like the OP tank is being nerfed to oblivion.
Not sure we can deduce that from the info provided, given we know nothing about how the OP powers, class feats etc will look in the new world. Speaking as someone who mains an OP currently, changes to the shield will be completely irrelevant if the mechanisms for generating temp hp remain the same.
Admittedly im i high il level OP over 19k, and as a result i play the way the devs want to stop, and just concentrate on killing things whilst holding aggro, but i almost never raise my sheild, there is no need i perminantly have millions of temp HP. I can solo FBI in just under an hour, and even stood there on my own, none of the bosses in that dungeon can come close to getting through my temp hp's and make me stop hitting them in order to raise my sheild. In fact i think there are only 5 instances ill use my sheild, if ive messed up on the fbi hill climb and im stuck in a red zone, at the group gatherings on last bosses in cr or codg, maybe to help a squidgy toon stay on their feet for a partial soulcharge explosion in tong and to heal toons i see are low in health in any other circumstance.
Recovery is likely to be a far bigger loss to stop me spamming TW, but every class is in that boat.
Lets just wait and see what it looks like on preview.
There are more than BIS players in this game RIP Real Tiamat, RIP Real Demogorgon RIP real Temple of the spider. Why remove non bis content to give to bis players ???? FORCING the majority of your player base to play 4 mod old dungeons and trial will have a bad result on player base Changes are getting so bad i would rather prefer no new changes (RIP ICE FISHING in winter fest)
3
ghoulz66Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,748Arc User
lots of changes at once, it's a hit or miss. I hope devs are ready for the month of playtest, because you will see the biggest amount of feedbacks ever.
I just hope they LISTEN this time. For mod 6 we gave them three months of feedback between January and April and they didn't listen to any of it.
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My Foundry playthrough channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/Ruskaga/featured
> Sounds like the OP tank is being nerfed to oblivion.
Not sure we can deduce that from the info provided, given we know nothing about how the OP powers, class feats etc will look in the new world.
Speaking as someone who mains an OP currently, changes to the shield will be completely irrelevant if the mechanisms for generating temp hp remain the same.
The only way you can reasonably solo areas like Chult is to spam Encounters and Dailies. The At-Will powers of the OP is just way too weak to make a dent into the mobs. If the devs not only remove recover but also nerf Radiant Champion & Aura of Wisdom then the OP will be almost unplayable outside of groups.
And as far as tanking, if they are nerfing the spamming of encounter powers, you will not be able to spam Templar's Wrath.
It does depend on how quickly the shield recharges. But what is the point of this particular change, to make the OP mortal? That is the GF, one that can dish out damage but has a bit of shielding but can be killed. If you are going to take away the impervious shield and nerf cooldowns to encounters and dailies then are you going to allow them to dish out the same amount of damage as a GF? And then why not just play a GF?
We will have to wait and see but.... after the previous mods do you ACTUALLY trust the devs to get these things right?
0
rifter1969Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 516Arc User
lots of changes at once, it's a hit or miss. I hope devs are ready for the month of playtest, because you will see the biggest amount of feedbacks ever.
I just hope they LISTEN this time. For mod 6 we gave them three months of feedback between January and April and they didn't listen to any of it.
I agree. They have had the preliminary build up on closed testing for what, two weeks or more? With some hope, those that got into the early testing gave feedback that the devs can implement.
I can understand and appreciate the fact that sometime it isn't practical to get those fixes into the code in time, but nothing is set in stone.
So here's for keeping my fingers crossed. And as for the changes in general, I'm going to take a wait and see approach. No sense biting my fingernails over something that is vague right now. Blogs are going to come out to describe stuff, will be on preview, and so forth.
I main a warlock, and I am extremely curious and filled with some anxiety about the LifeSteal removal.
Why exactly a barbarian? Tired of the fact that in most MMO games, classes with two-handed weapons are most often called barbarians or berserks. In this game we were a warrior, and I liked it, I liked that in this respect the game was original in its own way. Yes, this class was a cross between a barbarian and a warrior, but from the warrior there was much more in it than from a barbarian. Yes, and so with all classes. That's just why the Guardian Fighter was renamed the warrior, and not the guard or the commander? After all, is it not as much of a warrior in him as in a Great Weapon Fighter? Maybe you rename the Great Weapon Fighter for example in the Warmaster? Or maybe then a Great Weapon Fighter could be called a warrior, and a Guardian Fighter called a guard?
I think that they were just using numbers for the examples, not making any claims that enemies would be inflicting the tanks full HP amount as damage on a regular basis.
In any event, I suspect that the tank options will include methods for recharging their guard, and healers may have powers that can help them out as well.
But what about solo? One of the survival traits of a DPS class is to kill the enemy so quickly that they do not get much of a chance to inflict damage on you. A OP takes 2x - 4x longer to kill mobs and those mobs will be hitting with full force till they drop. Along with nerfing reduced cooldowns of encounters so things like Templar's Wrath can't be spammed, how is a OP suppose to solo? Sure, they can have a healer companion but typically you run with a striker to help you deal more damage.
So I know we're most likely not gonna get it, but I'm just saying, now would be the absolute best time to release a new class.
As of last October:
On new classes: “We have no plans on the books to introduce a new class. That’s not to say we haven’t discussed it, but it’s not even penciled in.”
Ok, so they want the game to be closer to DnD, but don't want to include the diverse classes that come with it.
It is easier to increase cap level and make changes to 8 classes, than add a new one and then do the chaages they are about to make. First they must ensure current classes are 5e alike. THEN you move to add a new one.
I still don't understand the tanky stuff. I mean: either the shield would refresh itself pretty fast, or it would not mean anything at all, would it? And if a second hit in that example actually harms the tank and destroys the shield, the third does what? Kills? That does not sound like perspective tanking. Not to say that it would mean that one shot kills would be quite common in that case. I am really curious how they will make this work.
*shrugs*
What's so complicated about making tanks take less damage than the rest of the party?
Sounds like the OP tank is being nerfed to oblivion.
This coupled with recovery being lost, I wonder how it will effect encounters that could offset this, especially if we end up with a lower overall recharge speed.
I really do not want to go back to the meta where the healer has to babysit everyone, including the tank.
Depending on which feats there will be, who knwos somethign from Judge tree survives so divine call reduces your cooldown. If not, at a certain level your templar wrath and binding oath are enough sustain. They said nothing about changing sanctuary, only how the guard/block for the OP will work. I assume if guard is down you can still heal and with gear and new stats, changes might not be too big.
Just imagine you are relearning your class at lvl 70. This is crazy, fun and awesome. If anything, it was always the healer's job to heal the party, not the DPS only. Heals on tanks aren't easily noticed but Paladins have encounters to help them survive. Worse case scenario will mean a change on how to approach fights.
Nevertheless, healing is good. The game has become more buff/debuff focused instead of actual healing. Why have healing spells if not to use them? xD
The problem with a Warlock being a healer is that to be a good healer you need to equip for it. A Cleric or OP can do it out of the box with meh gear.
That's now, Mod 15. Forget the "Templocks" we have now, from the sound of it they are not going to exist in Mod 16. Mod 16 Warlock healers probably don't heal automatically by lifestealing everything around them, instead they heal using abilities powered by soul sparks. How they stack up to the other "Healers" we will have available is anyone's guess at this point - but they will definitely be different from what we know now. (For one thing .... it seems they will all be soulbinder paragon ...)
Why exactly a barbarian? Tired of the fact that in most MMO games, classes with two-handed weapons are most often called barbarians or berserks. In this game we were a warrior, and I liked it, I liked that in this respect the game was original in its own way. Yes, this class was a cross between a barbarian and a warrior, but from the warrior there was much more in it than from a barbarian. Yes, and so with all classes. That's just why the Guardian Fighter was renamed the warrior, and not the guard or the commander? After all, is it not as much of a warrior in him as in a Great Weapon Fighter? Maybe you rename the Great Weapon Fighter for example in the Warmaster? Or maybe then a Great Weapon Fighter could be called a warrior, and a Guardian Fighter called a guard?
Because this is a game based on Dungeons and Dragons. The GWF was already a Barbarian in all but name in the way it played and how its features functioned. Whereas the GF was more akin to the standard Fighter class in D&D. And none of your suggested names are D&D classes, so they're definitely not going to be used as names for a class in a game based on D&D.
Assigning any kind of support path to the Warlock instead of the Wizard is an odd move. And it makes a lot more sense to me to give the Ranger the Healer path.
Assigning any kind of support path to the Warlock instead of the Wizard is an odd move. And it makes a lot more sense to me to give the Ranger the Healer path.
Warlocks can heal now in the game and have been screaming for the option to queue as a healer for years now, so it makes sense in that regard to give it to them. As for "support" it's hard to say what the wizard's paragons will look like - one may well prove to be a "support" Paragon (like Master of Flame is now) that can buff and debuff.
You know what? I don't mind that they're trying to make another healer class - just don't call it don't call it a Warlock. "Templocks," were offensive enough. "Healock," is just taking it too far.
It's like drawing a pigeon and calling it an eagle.
The problem with a Warlock being a healer is that to be a good healer you need to equip for it. A Cleric or OP can do it out of the box with meh gear.
Can do it now, perhaps.
And perhaps once this hits a Warlock will be able to as well. Or those other classes will need to gear better for it.
Things are changing. You can not just assume that tank Paladins and DPS Clerics will be able to heal just fine but somehow that Warlocks will have to dedicate themselves to the extreme just to manage mediocrity.
I think that they were just using numbers for the examples, not making any claims that enemies would be inflicting the tanks full HP amount as damage on a regular basis.
In any event, I suspect that the tank options will include methods for recharging their guard, and healers may have powers that can help them out as well.
But what about solo? One of the survival traits of a DPS class is to kill the enemy so quickly that they do not get much of a chance to inflict damage on you. A OP takes 2x - 4x longer to kill mobs and those mobs will be hitting with full force till they drop. Along with nerfing reduced cooldowns of encounters so things like Templar's Wrath can't be spammed, how is a OP suppose to solo? Sure, they can have a healer companion but typically you run with a striker to help you deal more damage.
What about solo?
Do you know how that will work out once this hits?
Typically a Paladin runs with a DPSer to deal more damage? Well, maybe that's a thing that Paladin players will want to reconsider.
Maybe, just maybe, their choice of companion might be determined by how they build their character.
Too many people look at their favorite class, point out something that is changing, and say "They are HAMSTER over (insert class here)!!".
None of these changes are happening in a vacuum, though. Encounters are changing. Gear is changing. How our characters grow as they level up is changing.
Yeah, taking away this or that and leaving everything else the same might be a disaster, but they aren't leaving everything else the same.
No one that hasn't already been testing has any idea how things will work after this hits.
No one has any idea what kind of feats will be available to which paragon paths and what those feats might do. Even if they kept some of the names it is no guarantee that a feat will work the same, or that a feat that might not have been particularly good now won't be a big part of some new build because of tweaked mechanics.
No one knows how effective the guard mechanic will actually be. How effective healing will be now.
Sure, people can complain about how lifesteal was needed because of the old healing mechanics, but who can say how the new healing mechanics will work?
Too many people flying off the handle about some small thing without considering what all of the other changes might mean.
We'll see.
That's all.
Maybe it does turn into a disaster, but I am not going to assume the worst. I want this to be a success. I want it to be the best thing to happen to Neverwinter ever, and I think that there is hope because the old path was headed for nowhere. There were a few classes everyone wanted (as long as they were "built right") and a whole bunch that didn't matter. A few builds that you had to have to make the team and a whole lot more that would get you nothing but kicked.
That is not good for a game, no matter how much some people might enjoy being one of the overpowered chosen few.
Now, hopefully, every healing class will be able to heal effectively. Every DPS class will be a good DPSer. Every tank class will make a good tank. And they will all get to do it with a particular style and visual flair that they enjoy. They will all get to do it while still being able to pick some different feats along the way and not destroying their build as a result.
I mean from a D&D perspective. If Mod 16 is an attempt to closer align Neverwinter with D&D, they may as well try to actually... align it.
Warlocks are not selfless healers. Rangers are.
Uh... Warlocks in D&D can absolutely be selfless healers. They're the Celestial pact warlocks. If you're relying on a ranger for your group healing in D&D, y'all are doomed to die anyways. Rangers have never been healers in D&D. At best they can kinda supplement a main healer. But they never have enough spells to make a real impact, and non-magical healing is worthless in D&D.
Why exactly a barbarian? Tired of the fact that in most MMO games, classes with two-handed weapons are most often called barbarians or berserks. In this game we were a warrior, and I liked it, I liked that in this respect the game was original in its own way. Yes, this class was a cross between a barbarian and a warrior, but from the warrior there was much more in it than from a barbarian. Yes, and so with all classes. That's just why the Guardian Fighter was renamed the warrior, and not the guard or the commander? After all, is it not as much of a warrior in him as in a Great Weapon Fighter? Maybe you rename the Great Weapon Fighter for example in the Warmaster? Or maybe then a Great Weapon Fighter could be called a warrior, and a Guardian Fighter called a guard?
Because this is a game based on Dungeons and Dragons. The GWF was already a Barbarian in all but name in the way it played and how its features functioned. Whereas the GF was more akin to the standard Fighter class in D&D. And none of your suggested names are D&D classes, so they're definitely not going to be used as names for a class in a game based on D&D.
In all this in what? In all abilities? And how all abilities, except maybe a pair of abilities, confirm that this is a barbarian? From the barbarian, I see only the Expendability. This is an MMO, not a targeted MMO, and therefore here it is played like that and functions that way. And the classes here are made up of two other classes or a combination of their abilities (just the uncontrollability of a warrior). And how do you see the barbarian tank? Do not you think that this is more of a warrior? To be either a hardy fighter or a fierce fighter? And why then just call him a Warrior? And the Guardian fighter is just a Guardian? I think it suits them better in their main role in the game.
Those tanking changes make no sense to me. So are they going to give Fighters, Barbarians (Did this really need to be changed btw?!) and Pally's huge hp pools? Even then, with AC and such going away and the way npcs hit I see me holding my shield up for one hit and then eating it in the face as the healer spams saying a prayer.
Celestial pact for Warlocks is in Xanathar's Guide to Everything.
Thank you for pointing this out. I'm falling behind on the times here! I actually really like the idea of a Celestial pact. I suppose they did it to make the class viable for people who aren't into that infernal junk, plus it's kind of silly to ignore the potential for patrons in other alignments. I liked some of the playbuilds I was reading about in different forums.
I'd be onboard with a Celestial pact in Neverwinter if it was a Celestial pact - with the appropriate character questline. Does it seem to you like that's what the devs are aiming at? Otherwise, simply assigning a healing role to a Warlock with an infernal patron is still preposterous. Last time I looked, belial wasn't the patron fiend of nurses and aloe vera farmers.
Why exactly a barbarian? Tired of the fact that in most MMO games, classes with two-handed weapons are most often called barbarians or berserks. In this game we were a warrior, and I liked it, I liked that in this respect the game was original in its own way. Yes, this class was a cross between a barbarian and a warrior, but from the warrior there was much more in it than from a barbarian. Yes, and so with all classes. That's just why the Guardian Fighter was renamed the warrior, and not the guard or the commander? After all, is it not as much of a warrior in him as in a Great Weapon Fighter? Maybe you rename the Great Weapon Fighter for example in the Warmaster? Or maybe then a Great Weapon Fighter could be called a warrior, and a Guardian Fighter called a guard?
Because this is a game based on Dungeons and Dragons. The GWF was already a Barbarian in all but name in the way it played and how its features functioned. Whereas the GF was more akin to the standard Fighter class in D&D. And none of your suggested names are D&D classes, so they're definitely not going to be used as names for a class in a game based on D&D.
The GWF in no way resembles a barbarian. After reading your post I when back to the PHB 5ED to reread them. What sets them apart mostly is rage and frenzy attacks while being lightly armored. Using a two handed weapon has nothing to do with it and in fact they start out with shield prof. About the only thing similar is that at a certain level they get extra movement speed, but again, only when lightly armored.
And there is no reason a generic fighter could not use a two handed weapon. In fact most of your great weapons were used by knights as they were very expensive. As far as the attack moves between the GF and GWF, they are almost interchangeable. In fact Into the Fray would be better suited to a barbarian attacking in a horde.
Comments
blech -
This was a thing that I had commented on several times before.
Now with these changes not only can they really give us a choice between the type of rogue or wizard or ranger or whatever that we want to be, but it makes it easier to introduce new classes in that balancing the existing classes was supposed to be a big part of what was holding that up.
Also, not that I am really a fan, but the GWF should have been the Barbarian from the start.
Going forward they will hopefully make the Barbarian armors look more like "barbarian armors". Those that want the more classic GWF look will still be able to change appearances using some of the existing gear to achieve that. I think that they were just using numbers for the examples, not making any claims that enemies would be inflicting the tanks full HP amount as damage on a regular basis.
In any event, I suspect that the tank options will include methods for recharging their guard, and healers may have powers that can help them out as well.
> Sounds like the OP tank is being nerfed to oblivion.
Not sure we can deduce that from the info provided, given we know nothing about how the OP powers, class feats etc will look in the new world.
Speaking as someone who mains an OP currently, changes to the shield will be completely irrelevant if the mechanisms for generating temp hp remain the same.
Admittedly im i high il level OP over 19k, and as a result i play the way the devs want to stop, and just concentrate on killing things whilst holding aggro, but i almost never raise my sheild, there is no need i perminantly have millions of temp HP. I can solo FBI in just under an hour, and even stood there on my own, none of the bosses in that dungeon can come close to getting through my temp hp's and make me stop hitting them in order to raise my sheild. In fact i think there are only 5 instances ill use my sheild, if ive messed up on the fbi hill climb and im stuck in a red zone, at the group gatherings on last bosses in cr or codg, maybe to help a squidgy toon stay on their feet for a partial soulcharge explosion in tong and to heal toons i see are low in health in any other circumstance.
Recovery is likely to be a far bigger loss to stop me spamming TW, but every class is in that boat.
Lets just wait and see what it looks like on preview.
RIP Real Tiamat, RIP Real Demogorgon RIP real Temple of the spider. Why remove non bis content to give to bis players ????
FORCING the majority of your player base to play 4 mod old dungeons and trial will have a bad result on player base
Changes are getting so bad i would rather prefer no new changes (RIP ICE FISHING in winter fest)
Drowcraft pants to buy... BECAUSE WHY NOT!? Junk all over the place that kills the point of grinding for any of it.
I wonder what new players think when they see loads of garbage that's worst than what they already scrapped together.
Blood Magic (RELEASED) - NW-DUU2P7HCO
Children of the Fey (RELEASED) - NW-DKSSAPFPF
Buried Under Blacklake (WIP) - NW-DEDV2PAEP
The Redcap Rebels (WIP) - NW-DO23AFHFH
My Foundry playthrough channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/Ruskaga/featured
And as far as tanking, if they are nerfing the spamming of encounter powers, you will not be able to spam Templar's Wrath.
It does depend on how quickly the shield recharges. But what is the point of this particular change, to make the OP mortal? That is the GF, one that can dish out damage but has a bit of shielding but can be killed. If you are going to take away the impervious shield and nerf cooldowns to encounters and dailies then are you going to allow them to dish out the same amount of damage as a GF? And then why not just play a GF?
We will have to wait and see but.... after the previous mods do you ACTUALLY trust the devs to get these things right?
With some hope, those that got into the early testing gave feedback that the devs can implement.
I can understand and appreciate the fact that sometime it isn't practical to get those fixes into the code in time, but nothing is set in stone.
So here's for keeping my fingers crossed. And as for the changes in general, I'm going to take a wait and see approach. No sense biting my fingernails over something that is vague right now. Blogs are going to come out to describe stuff, will be on preview, and so forth.
I main a warlock, and I am extremely curious and filled with some anxiety about the LifeSteal removal.
Depending on which feats there will be, who knwos somethign from Judge tree survives so divine call reduces your cooldown. If not, at a certain level your templar wrath and binding oath are enough sustain. They said nothing about changing sanctuary, only how the guard/block for the OP will work. I assume if guard is down you can still heal and with gear and new stats, changes might not be too big.
Just imagine you are relearning your class at lvl 70. This is crazy, fun and awesome. If anything, it was always the healer's job to heal the party, not the DPS only. Heals on tanks aren't easily noticed but Paladins have encounters to help them survive. Worse case scenario will mean a change on how to approach fights.
Nevertheless, healing is good. The game has become more buff/debuff focused instead of actual healing. Why have healing spells if not to use them? xD
Winter Lily (CW) / Winter Rose (DC) / Winter Ivy (HR)
Pandora's Misfits Guild Leader
And it makes a lot more sense to me to give the Ranger the Healer path.
Winter Lily (CW) / Winter Rose (DC) / Winter Ivy (HR)
Pandora's Misfits Guild Leader
Warlocks are not selfless healers.
Rangers are.
It's like drawing a pigeon and calling it an eagle.
> If Mod 16 is an attempt to closer align Neverwinter with D&D,
I don’t think that’s their focus. More like a beneficial side effect.
And perhaps once this hits a Warlock will be able to as well. Or those other classes will need to gear better for it.
Things are changing.
You can not just assume that tank Paladins and DPS Clerics will be able to heal just fine but somehow that Warlocks will have to dedicate themselves to the extreme just to manage mediocrity. What about solo?
Do you know how that will work out once this hits?
Typically a Paladin runs with a DPSer to deal more damage? Well, maybe that's a thing that Paladin players will want to reconsider.
Maybe, just maybe, their choice of companion might be determined by how they build their character.
Too many people look at their favorite class, point out something that is changing, and say "They are HAMSTER over (insert class here)!!".
None of these changes are happening in a vacuum, though. Encounters are changing. Gear is changing. How our characters grow as they level up is changing.
Yeah, taking away this or that and leaving everything else the same might be a disaster, but they aren't leaving everything else the same.
No one that hasn't already been testing has any idea how things will work after this hits.
No one has any idea what kind of feats will be available to which paragon paths and what those feats might do. Even if they kept some of the names it is no guarantee that a feat will work the same, or that a feat that might not have been particularly good now won't be a big part of some new build because of tweaked mechanics.
No one knows how effective the guard mechanic will actually be. How effective healing will be now.
Sure, people can complain about how lifesteal was needed because of the old healing mechanics, but who can say how the new healing mechanics will work?
Too many people flying off the handle about some small thing without considering what all of the other changes might mean.
We'll see.
That's all.
Maybe it does turn into a disaster, but I am not going to assume the worst.
I want this to be a success. I want it to be the best thing to happen to Neverwinter ever, and I think that there is hope because the old path was headed for nowhere. There were a few classes everyone wanted (as long as they were "built right") and a whole bunch that didn't matter. A few builds that you had to have to make the team and a whole lot more that would get you nothing but kicked.
That is not good for a game, no matter how much some people might enjoy being one of the overpowered chosen few.
Now, hopefully, every healing class will be able to heal effectively. Every DPS class will be a good DPSer. Every tank class will make a good tank. And they will all get to do it with a particular style and visual flair that they enjoy. They will all get to do it while still being able to pick some different feats along the way and not destroying their build as a result.
But we will see.
I'd be onboard with a Celestial pact in Neverwinter if it was a Celestial pact - with the appropriate character questline. Does it seem to you like that's what the devs are aiming at? Otherwise, simply assigning a healing role to a Warlock with an infernal patron is still preposterous. Last time I looked, belial wasn't the patron fiend of nurses and aloe vera farmers.
And there is no reason a generic fighter could not use a two handed weapon. In fact most of your great weapons were used by knights as they were very expensive. As far as the attack moves between the GF and GWF, they are almost interchangeable. In fact Into the Fray would be better suited to a barbarian attacking in a horde.