Disappointed in mod 16

nemesrich · February 2019

Paladin was the only class that had 2 roles: tank and healer. Now all classes will have two roles and every class will have a DPS variant EXCEPT Paladin. Thanks ARC, leveling will remain slow for Paladin, we will stay at the end of charts in the obligatory AD collecting dungeons/skirmishes again.
Maybe Paladin will be still wanted in endgame dungeons but it takes months (a year) to get to that and until that Paladin will be the worst leveling class.
You have lost a paying customer.

PE: Suggest you ARC to read official D&D handbooks: Paladin is maybe the best dps class with high damage and excellent defense abilities.

yeenoghu · February 2019

As a D&D player, please allow me to correct you in something: Paladin is 'best dps' class vs fiends, undead and such late game when you can smite at 3rd level for 5d8 AND if you do crit. But aside the smite, which is a great OP encounter that deals proper damage, your argument is invalid:

Barbarians (GWF) deal more damage with rage, can attack with advantage and overall in a long term battle they will outdps the full build Paladin since spell slots will end at some point.

Figther (GF): Action surge and more attacks. Will also outdps the paladin in long-term. And if it's a battlemaster or champion, maneuvers and easier to crit.

Wizard: Spells deals more damage than the smite, utility and even a cantrip could be 4d10 consisten damage during extended fight periods.

Rogue: Sneak attack critical for even MORE damage that can one shot.

Warlock: Agonizing blast is best cantrip. Add hex damage to each one and there you go. Besides utility spells.

Cleric: Clearly you never trolled with a lvl 7 or higher inflict wounds for WAY MORE damage than a Smite. And not forget Spirit Guardians can be perma on, Spirit Weapon and other dps cleric spells that is consistent damage that will be there long after paladins are out of smites.

Ranger: Aside Hunter's mark extra damage and what you take later on, in player's book they may pale in comparison but they have favorite enemies to deal better damage against a type of monster and, as stated before, long term battle they will outdps the paladin.

Paladin: Your 'maybe the dps class' ignores the fact you have limited smites and won't always crit, cast smite at highest level possible with your two attacks and such.

Now let's look at how GOOD paladins ar eearly game. Blinding light is great AoE DPS that procs courage. Sure, caps at 5 targets but great. Templar's wrath for more cc and smite. You can clean things easily still. Divine judgement also deals MORE damage than most classes Dailies, especially if it crits. Relentless Avenger also deals good dps.

However, you forgot the most important: Paladins WERE ALWAYS a support/tank/healer class. In game you have lay on hands and acess to shield of faith for a reason. A divine smite is GREAT but in an extended dungeon crawl you would be saving those for certain fights and by the end of it, you could had deal more damage to one enemy but not to all of them. Paladins ARE Tanks/Healers. Main job is to tank and soak damage. Just be happy smite is good and has a short cd. Maybe one day ARC can make smite deal more damage to undead, demons and alike... but until then whining about somethign the class wasn't designed for is silly.

And in the game, no matter your paladin level, you can perfectly handle PVE mobs and even kill them quickly.. It's all a matte rof using right powers, even if you disregard Templar's wrath and go with binding oath, circle of pwoer or SACRED WEAPON to empower your smites and at-wills. In a LONG CRAWLING dungeon, your JOB as a Paladin is to tank and heal, like it's expected from you in D&D table game.

This are just my 2 cents as someone who plays paladin in D&D since ever and how the class works in 5e.

nemesrich · February 2019

yeenoghu#2009 said:
As a D&D player, please allow me to correct you in something: Paladin is 'best dps' class vs fiends, undead and such late game when you can smite at 3rd level for 5d8 AND if you do crit. But aside the smite, which is a great OP encounter that deals proper damage, your argument is invalid:

Barbarians (GWF) deal more damage with rage, can attack with advantage and overall in a long term battle they will outdps the full build Paladin since spell slots will end at some point.

Figther (GF): Action surge and more attacks. Will also outdps the paladin in long-term. And if it's a battlemaster or champion, maneuvers and easier to crit.

Wizard: Spells deals more damage than the smite, utility and even a cantrip could be 4d10 consisten damage during extended fight periods.

Rogue: Sneak attack critical for even MORE damage that can one shot.

Warlock: Agonizing blast is best cantrip. Add hex damage to each one and there you go. Besides utility spells.

Cleric: Clearly you never trolled with a lvl 7 or higher inflict wounds for WAY MORE damage than a Smite. And not forget Spirit Guardians can be perma on, Spirit Weapon and other dps cleric spells that is consistent damage that will be there long after paladins are out of smites.

Ranger: Aside Hunter's mark extra damage and what you take later on, in player's book they may pale in comparison but they have favorite enemies to deal better damage against a type of monster and, as stated before, long term battle they will outdps the paladin.

Paladin: Your 'maybe the dps class' ignores the fact you have limited smites and won't always crit, cast smite at highest level possible with your two attacks and such.

Now let's look at how GOOD paladins ar eearly game. Blinding light is great AoE DPS that procs courage. Sure, caps at 5 targets but great. Templar's wrath for more cc and smite. You can clean things easily still. Divine judgement also deals MORE damage than most classes Dailies, especially if it crits. Relentless Avenger also deals good dps.

However, you forgot the most important: Paladins WERE ALWAYS a support/tank/healer class. In game you have lay on hands and acess to shield of faith for a reason. A divine smite is GREAT but in an extended dungeon crawl you would be saving those for certain fights and by the end of it, you could had deal more damage to one enemy but not to all of them. Paladins ARE Tanks/Healers. Main job is to tank and soak damage. Just be happy smite is good and has a short cd. Maybe one day ARC can make smite deal more damage to undead, demons and alike... but until then whining about somethign the class wasn't designed for is silly.

And in the game, no matter your paladin level, you can perfectly handle PVE mobs and even kill them quickly.. It's all a matte rof using right powers, even if you disregard Templar's wrath and go with binding oath, circle of pwoer or SACRED WEAPON to empower your smites and at-wills. In a LONG CRAWLING dungeon, your JOB as a Paladin is to tank and heal, like it's expected from you in D&D table game.

This are just my 2 cents as someone who plays paladin in D&D since ever and how the class works in 5e.

You are wrong. Every class has some nice skills (like sneak attack etc.) but in general Paladin is one of the best DPS class.
I could give you tons of websites discussing it but here is one nicely detailed:

https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/dungeons-dragons-discussion/tips-tactics/7108-5e-class-tier-list-a-bit-more-in-depth

But naturally this is only an opinion you don't have to agree.

AND what about the fact Paladin will be only support class in NO while all other class will have one DPS variant too?

PE: I have decided to read as many discussions about D&D tier lists as I can and 4 of 5 agree that Paladin is Tier S or A. Check it if you don't believe me.

nemesrich · February 2019

You are simply wrong.
I could write why your arguments are invalid but instead i suggest you to Google: D&D 5e tier list and you will see that Paladin is tier S or A because it has high DPS and protection. There are tons of websites about it here are the first 4 websites given by google:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IC4X0u0PH8w
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/dungeons-dragons-discussion/tips-tactics/7108-5e-class-tier-list-a-bit-more-in-depth
https://www.greenmangaming.com/blog/dd-classes-ranked-best-worst/
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?455464-Classes-Rated-By-Tier

AND what about the fact Paladin in NO will be pure support class while every other class will have a dps variant?

yeenoghu · February 2019

That video, though... two MAN camapign. Best two classes for a TWO MAN CAMPAIGN.
Paladin has great burst damage, but not consistent high amounts of damage during extended fights;

mebengalsfan · February 2019

nemesrich said:
Paladin was the only class that had 2 roles: tank and healer. Now all classes will have two roles and every class will have a DPS variant EXCEPT Paladin. Thanks ARC, leveling will remain slow for Paladin, we will stay at the end of charts in the obligatory AD collecting dungeons/skirmishes again.
Maybe Paladin will be still wanted in endgame dungeons but it takes months (a year) to get to that and until that Paladin will be the worst leveling class.
You have lost a paying customer.

PE: Suggest you ARC to read official D&D handbooks: Paladin is maybe the best dps class with high damage and excellent defense abilities.

Not true.... CW, HR, and TR all have one role DPS. Both paragon path will be a DPS role.

Clerics in my day of playing PnP were the back up tanks if the Fighter went down as Clerics in D&D were very similar to what we see with Paladins in NWO. Since clerics cannot use shields in NWO, I'll take the DPS role as a second build for my cleric, though I prefer to play support with her first and maybe DPS second.

majorcharvenak · February 2019

The pally's role was pretty much set in stone back in Mod 6 with a unique set of abilities for each paragon and roles within the party. Now other classes have options for other roles. I just hope they give us some iconography so that folks know who is on tap for what it using the queues. If the set up is not the obvious classes in the obvious spots, it might get a bit confusing.

Now with respect to leveling the pally pre-Mod 16, I found it rather easy up to around level 60 then it slowed a bit but it wasn't insurmountable. At least not after I respecced from Light to Justice. It should be even easier now that Aura of Solitude can be added onto the bar while soloing for the extra boost.

Not sure whom you were referring to OP when you mentioned ARC. I doubt ARC will read anything. The devs with Cryptic might (highly doubtful), but I dont think ARC will have much to say. My two coppers.

artifleur · February 2019

nemesrich said:
Paladin was the only class that had 2 roles: tank and healer. Now all classes will have two roles.

What about rogues, rangers and wizards? Do they get two roles? No, they don't.

feioso123 · February 2019

Leveling/Grinding is slow as a Paladin?...end of the damage charts?...the hell are you smoking mate?...any properly used OP kills groups of mobs in seconds, we stay mostly right behind the HDPS in dungeons on the damage chart...dunno what the hell you are doing with this class, but you are doing it wrong.

finmakin · February 2019

I read different opinions and they are valid from their perspective..

I might be old school player but in my eyes a tank is a tank and a healer is a healer, and I have focused on (old school) a pure tank and a pure healer.
With other word's in Prot mode I am capable of absorbing massive amounts of damage (bubble group in mean time too) without even raising my shield.
In Dev mode I am capable of dishing out massive amounts of heals, but these two setup's comes with a cost of lower DPS.

In short words, I don't need high DPS (hybrid builds) as OP, since I have a group to dish out the DPS (I have other role as tank), Probably I have clearly a different opinion than most of the posters here..

I'm looking forward to finally be able to die again in mod 16

aerhythia · February 2019

OP already has 2 roles. If you want to play DPS OP you have the same option as right now, private queue? Perhaps OP tank and healer will be able to dish out respectable damage. GF tank spec probably has to make a lot of sacrifices.

As long as solo performance is solid, and DPS output as tank or healer spec respectable (at least as good as in Mod 14 right now when build for DPS) personally I don't see not having a decicated DPS spec as disadvantage.

ilithyn · February 2019

@feioso123 We're talking about mod 16 here you know. Looks like the DPS abilities - and hence the ability to level solo - of OP will be nerfed severely. Of course, the alpha testers don't seem to give HAMSTER all about it so they claim it'll all be grand, but that's not what the grapewine says.

majorcharvenak · February 2019

Need to wait and see but I'm not all that optimistic. If (operative word) they give the encounters a performance boost to keep them "meaningful" as the devs put it, then maybe it wont be too bad given the absence of recovery for the cooldowns. Don't know. Have to cross fingers and keep an eye out for the patch notes for preview.

nemesrich · February 2019

mebengalsfan#9264 said:
Not true.... CW, HR, and TR all have one role DPS. Both paragon path will be a DPS role.

You are right my mistake.

feioso123 said:
Leveling/Grinding is slow as a Paladin?...end of the damage charts?...the hell are you smoking mate?...any properly used OP kills groups of mobs in seconds, we stay mostly right behind the HDPS in dungeons on the damage chart...dunno what the hell you are doing with this class, but you are doing it wrong.

Level different classes until 70 and measure the time it takes. (Little help: Dps classes takes half time, even GF takes 30% less time. After 70 this stays true when you do the campaigns.)

ilithyn said:
@feioso123 We're talking about mod 16 here you know. Looks like the DPS abilities - and hence the ability to level solo - of OP will be nerfed severely. Of course, the alpha testers don't seem to give HAMSTER all about it so they claim it'll all be grand, but that's not what the grapewine says.

I am glad that there are people who can understand what I wrote and what are my concerns.

What I wanted to say: OP will be the only class that won't have a DPS variant. In solo content it will be a disadvantage. I would like a DPS variant.

Why is this so big problem??

feioso123 · February 2019

> @nemesrich said:
> Not true.... CW, HR, and TR all have one role DPS. Both paragon path will be a DPS role.
>
> You are right my mistake. Leveling/Grinding is slow as a Paladin?...end of the damage charts?...the hell are you smoking mate?...any properly used OP kills groups of mobs in seconds, we stay mostly right behind the HDPS in dungeons on the damage chart...dunno what the hell you are doing with this class, but you are doing it wrong.
>
> Level different classes until 70 and measure the time it takes. (Little help: Dps classes takes half time, even GF takes 30% less time. After 70 this stays true when you do the campaigns.) @feioso123 We're talking about mod 16 here you know. Looks like the DPS abilities - and hence the ability to level solo - of OP will be nerfed severely. Of course, the alpha testers don't seem to give HAMSTER all about it so they claim it'll all be grand, but that's not what the grapewine says.
>
> I am glad that there are people who can understand what I wrote and what are my concerns.
>
> What I wanted to say: OP will be the only class that won't have a DPS variant. In solo content it will be a disadvantage. I would like a DPS variant.
>
> Why is this so big problem??

I have, OP was actually one of the quickest leveling experiences I had...and it was as Devotion, as Prot if you know how to abuse Sacred Weapon with Binding Oath, entire groups die before doing a single rotation...

I will apologize for not having read the Op post properly, but at the same time, I believe we can't really state stuff until we get to the preview, if by then OP really becomes a wet noodle even when leveling...then, yeah, we can cry/rant/demand for some offensive buffs.

silvershard · February 2019

Leveling's hard for a Paladin?

Is it? At what point in the levelling process is it hard for Paladins?

Yeah, OK, they don't do as much damage, but most things don't have that many hit points. I don't see being a veritable brick wall, but not doing as much flat DPS as a disadvantage.
It's a trade off.
It might take them a bit longer to kill stuff, but during the 1-70 process that time is saved back by virtue of the lack of times they have to go back to a spawn point cos they got killed.

My HR was a much harder journey, till I got to understand the mechanics.
And that's the bigger issue over levelling difficulty. Actually understanding what you are doing.
Paladins, due to their innate survivability have so much more leeway when it comes to mucking up and getting away with it than most of the squishies out there.

My OP died ONCE in the levelling process to 70 and that was due to a mega lag/rubber band session that caused her to fall off a ledge in standard TOS. (HOW pissed was I?)
My HR died with alarming frequency, particularly in the latter stages of Elemental Evil. Anything THAT squishy at THAT stage in the game can be felled by a single CC attack that immobilises them in the middle of big gang of monsters. OP can ride that mistake through DR and Hit Points.

But... my OP was the last character of the standard 8 that I levelled. And because I got the hang of it quickly, it was easily the fastest run to L70 that I did.
I knew the content, and (if you'll pardon the pun) "Pitfalls" and knew how to avoid them. My HR was only my second toon, and I was still half baffled as to why it was so different in game mechanics to the TR I'd played first.

As to what the new mod/overhaul will do to Tank and Healer OP builds, a lot will be down to how well they stack up against the other classes doing those jobs.
If you have a DPS option on your class, then the notion of faster dailies and weeklies and easier campaign grinding may well see people going those routes rather than the Paladin.

And I think a great deal will depend on what happens to Divine Call in the shake up.
If it works along even vaguely similar lines to how it does now, I'm still playing my Paladin Tank before considering switching to Fighter or Barbarian. Because that character will be "Cooldown King" and will still play essentially the same way as it does now.
If Divine Call becomes just another name for "Taunt" then I'm probably going to look elsewhere for my Tanking fun.
I'll also happily trade off being able to use Divine Call carefully to use Healing Encounters slightly quicker than a Cleric or Warlock against the lack of a DPS option with my Devotion build.

micky1p00 · February 2019

ilithyn said:
@feioso123 We're talking about mod 16 here you know. Looks like the DPS abilities - and hence the ability to level solo - of OP will be nerfed severely. Of course, the alpha testers don't seem to give HAMSTER all about it so they claim it'll all be grand, but that's not what the grapewine says.

May I ask who are the alpha testers, what classes each tested, and what is the grapewine you refer to, that knows better than the alpha testers.

obsidiancran3 · March 2019

How about we wait until the mod goes up on preview before decrying doom and gloom?
Its not a long wait now after all, if they hold to the plan (as mentioned in the OP and DC posts today).

majorcharvenak · March 2019

obsidiancran3 said:
How about we wait until the mod goes up on preview before decrying doom and gloom?
Its not a long wait now after all, if they hold to the plan (as mentioned in the OP and DC posts today).

The wait is over. Still waiting for the game to finish patching but it looks like the Dev Blog for both OP and DC are up. While its interesting that the healing powers will be tied to Divinity vice a separate cooldown, I'm left wondering how the 'passive heal' mechanics like Vow and Bond will work. Will powers like Burning light cost a lot of divinity and how will sanctuary be effected. If a pally ends up 'turtleling' to heal a group clustered together, will they be completely drained at the end of it? Have to see. DANGIT GAME! Hurry up and PATCH!

obsidiancran3 · March 2019

Well, I'm so far finding Paladin quite satisfying.

It both feels like the OP and doesn't its definitely a new world that will require learning to play things again.

almirgt11 · March 2019

I played Neverwinter 3 years ago, I played GWf, so I decided to make a paladin of devotion, because I hate playing the tank, I loved playing with it, now with the mod 16, everything went downhill, a healing paladin , who needs to use healing potion, to heal when he is killing mobs, because he only heals after them dead.
I'm not complaining about other things, but only about the cure that disappeared.
Great disappointment of the Neverwinter team, ruined the game, I will end up going back to World of Warcraft (after 10 years I played and dropped to play Neverwinter)

majorcharvenak · March 2019

I haven't found it to be too bad. Its not as easy to play as it has been Mod-15 on back. I will miss the fun I had with my pre-Mod 16 paladin but...I think I can live with it.

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majorcharvenak · March 2019

tryingfeedback#2848 said:

nemesrich said:
Paladin was the only class that had 2 roles: tank and healer. Now all classes will have two roles and every class will have a DPS variant EXCEPT Paladin. Thanks ARC, leveling will remain slow for Paladin, we will stay at the end of charts in the obligatory AD collecting dungeons/skirmishes again.
Maybe Paladin will be still wanted in endgame dungeons but it takes months (a year) to get to that and until that Paladin will be the worst leveling class.
You have lost a paying customer.

PE: Suggest you ARC to read official D&D handbooks: Paladin is maybe the best dps class with high damage and excellent defense abilities.
wrong paladins so much more then tanks or healers maybe you should find the OPs that do (dps,tank,heal,buff,debuff) all of it ask them how mad they are.

Wrong. They were originally introduced into the game with those roles in mind and by design, but over time and with a bit of ingenuity from the players, they were turned into what you describe - a powerful jack of all trades. Now, they've been forced back into the roles they were originally designed to fill - either as a tank or a healer. Can they do those roles as well as before? That's still up for debate on the former, and yes they can (with some tweaks) on the latter.

nemesrich · March 2019

I tried the new paladin on test server. It is terrible, no more temporary hp that was the essence of this class. Goodbye.

obsidiancran3 · March 2019

If you were only here for the ability to use powers that trivialized content, oh well.

ron · March 2019

> @nemesrich said:
> Paladin was the only class that had 2 roles: tank and healer. Now all classes will have two roles and every class will have a DPS variant EXCEPT Paladin. Thanks ARC, leveling will remain slow for Paladin, we will stay at the end of charts in the obligatory AD collecting dungeons/skirmishes again.
> Maybe Paladin will be still wanted in endgame dungeons but it takes months (a year) to get to that and until that Paladin will be the worst leveling class.
> You have lost a paying customer.
>
> PE: Suggest you ARC to read official D&D handbooks: Paladin is maybe the best dps class with high damage and excellent defense abilities.

Totally agree. Looks like the devs never played D&D. Make paladins do more damage!!

nemesrich · March 2019

obsidiancran3 said:
If you were only here for the ability to use powers that trivialized content, oh well.

Goodbye to you, too. Hope you will be still in a funny mood when the game will be closed because players left it.

majorcharvenak · March 2019

nemesrich said:

obsidiancran3 said:
If you were only here for the ability to use powers that trivialized content, oh well.

Goodbye to you, too. Hope you will be still in a funny mood when the game will be closed because players left it.

I would have given you ten blood rubies if you had responded to @obsidiancran3 post with one of Ebony Maw giving his famous introductory line.

Disappointed in mod 16

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