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justicesupreme
Member Posts: 9 Arc User
To start my main is 45 as of last night. So I am still very new even though I’ve had an account and a character for years, I’ve just really started diving into the game. Real life and other obligations kept me from Neverwinter until recently.
But onto my topic and it’s most likely an old one. And that is dungeons and the lack of being able to have fun after you queue up to run them. The reason doesn’t appear to be coming from the dungeon itself but from the fact that the high level people don’t scale down appropriately to be able to participate in the dungeon at any sane level. The last three attempts I made to run dungeons I was stuck with people who took off running like they were super speedsters and had the entire dungeon slaughtered before I was a quarter of the way into the dungeon myself, which left me not being allowed to participate or even getting to attack a mob.
I’m beginning to understand the astral diamond race. And I’ve heard people say it’s the people you’re running the dungeon with that are the problem. However, I feel that’s only part of the problem. The scaling is an issue and should be redone to make the dungeons challenging for everyone participating. I’m all for higher levels being able to scale down and make the dungeons somewhat easier as they should are more powerful, but the way it is now destroys the experience for those coming up thru the levels. And even at high level I would think it would be more fun to have challenging content than to race through a dungeon slaughtering everything with ease.
Anyway just my opinion. I’m curious, Has there ever been any talk of adjusting this by the developers? Last night after it happened for a third time in a row I just logged off in the middle of a dungeon run after the level 70 had killed 2 bosses 2 minutes in. And I had never even made it to the first boss spawning point. It was my first time in that dungeon and it was just ruined. I saw no point going further.
Thanks.
But onto my topic and it’s most likely an old one. And that is dungeons and the lack of being able to have fun after you queue up to run them. The reason doesn’t appear to be coming from the dungeon itself but from the fact that the high level people don’t scale down appropriately to be able to participate in the dungeon at any sane level. The last three attempts I made to run dungeons I was stuck with people who took off running like they were super speedsters and had the entire dungeon slaughtered before I was a quarter of the way into the dungeon myself, which left me not being allowed to participate or even getting to attack a mob.
I’m beginning to understand the astral diamond race. And I’ve heard people say it’s the people you’re running the dungeon with that are the problem. However, I feel that’s only part of the problem. The scaling is an issue and should be redone to make the dungeons challenging for everyone participating. I’m all for higher levels being able to scale down and make the dungeons somewhat easier as they should are more powerful, but the way it is now destroys the experience for those coming up thru the levels. And even at high level I would think it would be more fun to have challenging content than to race through a dungeon slaughtering everything with ease.
Anyway just my opinion. I’m curious, Has there ever been any talk of adjusting this by the developers? Last night after it happened for a third time in a row I just logged off in the middle of a dungeon run after the level 70 had killed 2 bosses 2 minutes in. And I had never even made it to the first boss spawning point. It was my first time in that dungeon and it was just ruined. I saw no point going further.
Thanks.
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Comments
Suggestions:
1) Now that you have some experience with minimizing the powers of players with the K-team challenges, 'scaling' should include reducing available powers to those appropriate to the level. If you run cloak tower, you get none of the powers listed after 'requires level 15 and 15 points spent'. So, no knives from the floor for TRs, no sheet of ice for CWs, no ITF for GFs, etc. Put them at the same level that the dungeon was designed for.
2) If you want to solo a dungeon, queue private. This is suppose to be a group/team effort, so start acting like your part of a team. Don't run ahead - or at least watch the health bar on the players you left behind and be kind enough to *go back* and help them when they are trapped/swarmed by mobs. This especially applies to the Caverns of Karrundax which is frequently run on fast mounts and most rooms are ridden through without killing anything.
3) Stop compensating for the lack of active players on the server by auto-spawning bot characters just so the queue wait is not too long. I ran a Master of the Hunt two days ago with 4 other short named characters with 3 letter @handles that obviously were not real players - reminded me of Sahha ball matches...
4) If someone thinks new players admire players that can one-shot bosses and run through dungeons 3x faster than they can - they are completely wrong. They are disdained by the new player and we find the behavior both rude and insulting. It is just too bad we cannot kick the players that ignore the group.
5) Add a mechanism to display the item level of lvl 70 characters so their qualifications are visible without inspecting. And mark the mobs in Ghost Stories, Barrow Demolition and other daily lairs as lvl 75 or 80 when they are clearly not equal to the lvl in the area surrounding the instance.
Just be kind.
Some high level players don't even want to be in those low level dungeons at all. But again, the devs chose to change the queue so if you wanted to make daily AD you were forced to run the various queues.
Not everyone runs through and leaves low levels behind. And like someone stated earlier, the reverse happens a lot too. High level queues in to something more difficult with a bunch of low levels. They are no help because they're undergeared. Someone stands at a campfire waiting to be kicked because they don't like the dungeon. Etc etc.
The queue has issues that's for sure. Most of the problems are self inflicted by the game makers.
@elsiehelps#2667
1. Taking away the available abilities would be really aggravating, but a second option could be to lower effective the number skill points for each ability, like 2 points max from levels 1-19 and 3 points from 20-69. It would reduce effectiveness of powers without being so disruptive.
2. To get AD from random queues, you can't private queue solo. I REALLY wish we could. The considerate alternative is to form a premade party and queue, which would probably quadruple the amount of time needed versus just queuing up solo and sprinting through it. Most people choose the quickest method. It's a game-design fault for causing it to come to that.
3. Those are not auto-spawned bots. Those are players running bots for farming AD. Feel free to report them.
They could oneshot or tank everything in their way, finish the dungeon in 3 minutes flat, get out and get back to trying to get a raq/req group together.... Or spend half an hour basically doing nothing but following a low level toon around and waiting for them to slowly wittle down mobs with that bent spoon they're using as a weapon. And/or picking them up off the floor when they accidently pull the entire dungeon by oopsies.
Once in a blue moon I do decide, "what the hell, I'll let these two take on the end boss without me". I can go downstairs, make a coffee, smoke a cigarette, and come back to find either the boss is down to half health, the screen is full of adds and the two players are running for their lives, or they're both dead and the boss is busy hitting me on the head for 1 damage while my pet trots around oneshotting mobs... I then press three button in a magical and secret way known only to the illuminati, collect my reward and fly out of the dungeon in my legendary +1 vorpal helicopter.
I get the whole "gee-whizz don't go ruining my experience dude" thing but erm, not a fine wine we're talking about here. Think of it as good practice for real life, where 99% of the time, it's not about you.
And before you all slip into omg outrage rant mode... Ask yourself why my perspective is any less valid than yours.
1. Leave the group.
2. Appreciate the help you're getting and how quickly the dungeon is getting done.
Either way, I'm not waiting for you. I'm there running that dungeon as part of a daily quest and I have plenty of other daily quests that I still want to run. I'm certainly not going to waste time waiting for you because your feelings might get hurt because I move and kill faster than you're currently capable of. Seriously, if there's that kind of disparity in our characters' capabilities, then it's almost guaranteed that I'm grouped with you to help you out. So take your loot, say thank you (or don't; I don't really care), and move on.
Enjoy the solo content. For a new player those areas are still pretty cool and many have some very cool story lines.
Many will say find a guild and run with them. I know that is harder then it sounds, trying to get on everyone's schedule and them having around the same level toon as yours. It works better once you hit 70 and you have not done a particular run and you ask for help on your guild chat.
Feel free to use the voice chat during a run (most setups, hold "V") and just say Hi, I'm new, etc. Myself, if I see a toon lagging behind, I slow down and stick with them to make sure they are not mobbed or just to show we are a team. But with companions and such, sometimes I miss the fact that someone is being left behind.
There is always the "looking for a group" in chat. I have never used it but you can try that as well, esp in that leveling zone.
Welcome to the game, hope you are enjoying yourself.
My theory is that random queues are the devs solution to getting all queued content to pop. Some individual picks a specific dungeon/skirmish to queue for, and the people who've queued random are chosen to fill it. It's the lesser of two evils- no pop at all, or level 70s destroying the content before it can even be seen. I remember having a ton of fun in these dungeons (Particularly Temple of Idris) when I was leveling and new player's first experience in a dungeon should NOT be what it is now.
I'm not sure what resources the devs are willing to devote in helping the people in the leveling queue that are actually leveling. Leaving things as they are isn't healthy for the new players, but I also think they are happy with the compromise they have reached with the queue system, and that their focus is on balancing things for level 70 players rather than those leveling. I don't know how they would financially justify devoting time and money to re-writing the coding for level scaling when I'm sure their resources are stretched thin churning out new modules and fixing bugs.
The only thing we as players can control is our own actions. If you're leveling and want to complete the dungeon with others of your own level, I would suggest trying the /lfg or /zone channels in the instances you're leveling to find others also wanting to complete the dungeon.
However if they scaled high characters down to where the dungeon was actually maybe challenging even for them. But took longer to complete. They could counter that move with upping the reward those higher level players get. Making the lower level dungeons not only worth more but maybe actually be fun to do as well.
Seems to me that would be a win win. It would also who know maybe help in the retention of newer players coming up.
In guild wars 2 at level 80 I can join my friends in a level 30 dungeon and “gasp” still be challenged and even killed. I also can still have fun running it. Is it easier with a few level 80s tagging along ? Sure. But it’s not a guaranteed auto win just because they are there. Why? because they scale the abilities down appropriately. Ohh and I also don’t lose abilities. The ones I have just do less damage or heal less etc.
Anyway. I posted my feedback. I’m lucky I have friends I am playing the game thru with. We are trio playing even the solo content, which just makes the game overall more fun. The night this occurred they were not able to log in.
However on that retention part. If this was an issue and I knew no one in game. I would have left the game already. So if newer player numbers coming up seem low a fix like what I was talking about could help in that department.
The short answer is there's nothing wrong with the content, but clearly some players are only concerned with themselves and what they want so I consider it a "player behavior" problem. But fortunately there seems to be more players who aren't so entirely self serving as most players that I've observed will at least try to help out new or lesser experienced players.
There have been quite a few threads on the forum about "speed runners", "leeches" (players who stand back and let everyone else do the work so they can swoop in and collect their reward), and at one time low level players saying they were "kicked out" of dungeons by higher level players because someone didn't approve of their 1) speed, 2) gear, 3) ability to inflict damage, or whatever.
Random dungeons and skirmishes have become a primary method of making astral diamonds, so you have a number of players who are only interested in getting to the end to get their AD (and/or seals) reward.
Some players don't seem to care what level of dungeon or skirmish they're in, the don't seem to care if other players have the opportunity to participate, are left behind and struggling ("speed runners") or if someone in the party wants to take the time to pick up drops and open chests - all they seem to care about is completing the run, getting their reward and getting out so they can do it all over again - so of course they aren't going to "scale down" because that would just mean it takes longer to get through the content.
From what I understand the "scaling" in random content was intentional with the idea being more experienced players would be able to help and teach lesser experienced players... a laudable thing in theory, but clearly there are some players who are only concerned with their own interests and not inclined to be help or make allowances for other people in their party.
However if you hear from some speed runners, they try (unsuccessfully IMO) to put the onus back on less skilled, less experienced and lesser equipped players trying to blame them for "not keeping up", not having better gear, etc., or saying players with lesser abilities should "queue private" or just not play at all... because slower, lesser equipped or experienced players were 'slowing them down'.
But when asked 'slowing them down' from what exactly? Often some of them stammer around about only having a limited amount of time. A limited amount of time is understandable, just about everyone has the same or similar constraints but running dungeons repeatedly for maximum profit is a choice so I personally find the time excuse a bit difficult to accept.
My advice, play as you choose and try to have fun but also try to be considerate of others even if some don't appear to be...
It is what it is.
My 2¢
Second, higher TIL players also have full use of other functionalities that the TIL (even though adjusted down) includes: 5x mount bonus effects, 5x companion active bonuses, whatever the companion does, particular piece bonuses, etc.
Third, it is the current random queue system that is forcing (yes, FORCING) high end players into the leveling dungeons. As a high TIL player myself, I consider RQ a mere interruption in my day. Whereas you may be running it for the first time and want to learn it, I am running it for the 1000th time, and only need to do it because RQ stuck me in it for the 9k AD and a few seals.
Fourth, from experience, it is difficult to know (or care) who in the 3 man queue would be serious about learning the dungeon. And in all honesty, no matter how slow some of us go, you will not get the true dungeon experience with us. All I have to do is hit Enforced Threat one time, and any mob or boss is dead.
Fifth, forcing me to take my time to teach a dungeon is not what RANDOM queue is for. Teaching and learning occurs on a foundation of trust, which is usually done in a guild, alliance, or a specialized chat channel (that you can make and invite other players...RQ learning chat...etc) for the solo players.
I disagree with the OP on how to fix. Maxed end game players should not be forced into levelling dungeons by RQ to muster up 9k rAD. That is the solution. Take levelling queues out of the RQ...all of them. This will solve both the auto bot issue and the speed runs by end game players who are annoyed at having to run it again. AND / OR Make levelling dungeons a pre level 70 queue ONLY for the daily AD.
Guild--And the Imaginary Friends
One of the issues with arriving late to a game I suppose where they have forced this for so long. And people forget it could be fun To run those dungeons if they were actually challenging and rewarded more based off your level..
There are games that have done a much better job at this and either way I hope the developers can find a way to improve the system
And since they outnumber the people actually levelling... queue times will increase. Etc.
I personally believe that's an inaccurate statement...
I know "high end players" also have the option to run intermediate or higher randoms that lower level players do not have. High end players choose to run lower level dungeons because they can be completed more quickly and repeated more often in less time than it takes to run more difficult intermediate or epic dungeons.
I've heard higher level players try to make the same claims for a long time - I just don't believe it's true no matter how many times someone attempts to repeat it. As a higher level player I don't find it difficult at all to figure out who wants to learn a dungeon...
You just pick out the player, that appears to be looking around, exploring their surroundings and stick with them. Of course I suppose it is rather difficult to determine if a player is inexperienced or wanting to learn the dungeon if one just runs off and leaves them behind. Yet another statement I have a little difficulty giving a great deal of personal credence to...
Every faster,higher level player running with lower level, lesser equipped players has the choice whether or not to slow down and remain with the lower level players and also has the choice of whether or not to dominate battles instead of letting others participate...
Slower lesser powerful players usually don't have the choice to run faster than their character is equipped to run or be more dominating in battle than their character actually is But higher level players always have the choice to slow down and remain with slower party members or not dominate battles and allow other party members to participate. Actually having more experienced players take the time to teach lesser experienced players how to more effectively - not only run dungeons - but play in general, is I believe exactly one of the things the random queues were intended to do...
I don't feel like digging through a couple of years worth of threads to find the original thread on the random queue introduction, but so put matters very simply - random dungeons and skirmishes are designed to be run buy a "party" of players, not as a one person solo content, even though it is possible for some players to run the content without any assistance.
Any player who intentionally leaves other party members behind, particularly if they run ahead and leave mobs for those who follow to contend with, are not playing as a member of a party, but then I kind of feel silly for feeling I have to state the obvious. I agree that maxed players should not be forced into leveling dungeons by random queue... Of course since as I pointed out no higher level player is actually "forced' to run leveling dungeons, your point is moot.
Any "maxed, end game players" who doesn't want to run with lower level players should stay out of random queue leveling dungeons all together...
"Leveling dungeons" as the name implies, are specifically designed for leveling players not "maxed, end game players" who also usually have the option of running intermediate, or epic dungeons.
But clearly some "maxed, end game players" intentionally choose to queue for leveling dungeons, then feel they are justified in complaining about the other players they are "forced" to run with.
Does that not seem the least bit paradoxical to anyone else?
Just speaking for myself, when I find myself in a "leveling dungeon" I'm familiar with I feel obligated to stay with the player(s) that appear to be unfamiliar or struggling with the content. I consider it a privilege to attempt to give lesser experienced players the benefit of my familiarity with the content and I do not begrudge any player who isn't as fast or as effective as my character... because I still remember how things were when I was the new, lower level, inexperienced player.
But that being said as far as I'm concerned wanting to accumulate as many AD's a day as possible is no excuse or justification for being inconsiderate of others. Most of the time when a lower level player is moving as fast as they can, fighting just as hard as they can or trying to learn as much as they can about dungeon or skirmish and still can't keep up with a more experienced or higher level player they aren't being inconsiderate - although that is exactly what some of them are accused of.
When a higher level player takes off and leaves others behind, whether or not they kill all the mobs along the way, are they being inconsiderate? It depends on one's perspective I suppose...
But the fact remains if some players are frustrated with having to share random - public content with lesser experienced, lesser skilled and equipped players they can either attempt to help those players obtain the experience, skills and gear they need to become better - or they can remain self serving and try to complain about them.
Which kind of player are we going to be?
There is no dungeon 'ethic' to waiting around any more than there is to running ahead. This is not real life, where someone is suffering because of a sickness, or needs help with food, or had their home destroyed by disaster. Nor does the game reflect life in any way (more on this below). I mean, I go around killing stuff. Argue how that motive reflects life. If I take the foundational principle presupposed in that ethic, then I could willingly ask for a tax from the super rich in the game to be distributed monthly to the less unfortunate. Such an ethic could begin to be extrapolated in many other ways, so that the less fortunate in the game receive the benefits of others, at a time and in a manner of the less fortunate's dictates.
It is a game. It says nothing about real life, or attitude. Every player chooses his or her own goals and playstyle.
What is ignored, and what you rejected in my previous post as unethical, is that from observation and experience, long time, maxed players would just as willing skip the RQ levelling dungeons than naught. Unless a player specifically CHOOSES to be a teacher once, twice, or enter into a guild that chooses to run that way, no other player can expect it. CHOICE trumps perceived EXPECTATION by others. As long as I am attempting to complete the content to the best of my knowledge and ability in the game, with my own fingers doing the play (not a program), then I am doing everything ETHICALLY, that is, according to the rules set forth by the developers.
Now, is it valid that levelling players want to learn the dungeons? Yes, it is. Is it valid and sound to argue, as the OP does and as you do, that maxed players must be nerfed more and/or expected to assume a teaching role in RQ? To the first, I answered mathematically...nerfing more is already an issue (scaling down). To the second, I said, no, it is not valid or sound.
My recommendation was to proceed to a solution where both sides get what they want by 1) game design and 2) by choice. Game design can be changed so that RQ would not throw together level 70s and anyone else. Choice still exists in the game where ANY player can seek out other players who are willing once or consistently to teach certain things. Whether in the game or by research. But, to establish an EXPECTATION of a playstyle which goes against CHOICE because the focus should be on such and such a player is NOT a game, imo. There are guilds and whole alliances that do run their members that way. They do everything together, they have rules about not running ahead, about not using certain things, about speech, about motivations, about x, y, and z. Some players are drawn to this kind of play; they love it as a society, think it reflects the best part of the game, as they establish a kind of righteousness for a digital society. They attempt to build real friendships outside the game, a real community. For some, like me, this will never be more than a game. The most righteous thing I can do is turn it off and go do something REAL. But, it is my choice for entertainment, not society, not for moral extension of my life. I do not troll others, flame, beg, steal. I play within the confines of the rules of the game, without seeking advantage by exploits, to bring myself pleasure, to whatever degree I have determined for myself as necessary and sufficient. No one else in the game can or will make such a determination for me. When I want to help, I help. When I don't want to help, I don't help. When I want to donate stuff to friends or strangers, I decided when and what. When I don't, I don't. I express as opinion, that is...perspective, that which is part of the player base. I observe based on other posts and game play what is actually present, not what should be, and offer opinion on how to fix in design, not behavior. The OP and you will not change behavior in the game, because you cannot remove CHOICE 100%. And if the game ever did institute such a mandate in game, my first choice would be to leave the game.
Any post that complains about behavior that the company is not already restricting due to its own rules (flaming) as a SOLUTION to the problem is not aware of human choice. So, I offer again, the solution. To the OP, use your human CHOICE to find out that kind of society in the game that will fit your gaming entertainment satisfaction, through guilds, alliance, or specialized chat channels. They DO exist. Go to alliance lists and read what each one values, or guilds. Here are some that have codes of conduct for members: Tyrs Paladium, Guild Medieval, NWLC (NeverWinter Legit Community). Form parties with other players who have CHOSEN to commit themselves to you, who will do all that you want in RANDOM queue.
So, I am against the OPs solution, but not his perception. Game design can be changed. And the OP can choose in the game to find other players who have chosen what he/she wants. However, suggesting behavioral mandates universally is NOT a solution. I feel no obligation to anyone in the game, to help or to teach beyond what I want to do at the moment, to answer the previous detraction of my sentiment. To expect obligation and a sense of privilege seriously misjudges the multiplicity of player motivations. Obligation is specifically formulated to remove choice. In fact, Cryptic has seriously misjudged the attraction of RQ to bring players with different goals together. This was my original complaint in mod 9 alpha pretest. If this were not the case, then such a post by the OP, or response by me, or other response with different opinions would happen at all. For me, no amount of responses to this, or agreements or likes or lols below will change how I play according to what pleases me IN A GAME. And in this alone, I do the OP and others a judicial service by 1) pointing out that others would commit to them and 2) revealing that others will not. And in this, Neverwinter is no different from any other game, filled with people who come with their own goals and who, through the means of the game, find each other to everyone's own satisfaction.
In short, find others in the game who share your GOALS according to your CHOICE. Don't suggest changing all of us, or complain about the behavior of players in a part of game design that exposes you more frequently to those of us who do NOT share your goals.
Guild--And the Imaginary Friends
Suggesting that a levelling player only can queue for RQ for AD reward via solo K the RQ is a strawman. Set it up, and knock it down. I have given helpful advice to the OP who seeks a community of players that share his gaming philosophy that WILL help with levelling dungeons so that he CAN complete RQ to his own satisfaction, that is, actually defeating mobs, avoiding traps, finding stuff, and learning bosses. To change my response to anything else is your logical fallacy.
Guild--And the Imaginary Friends
Of course, since doing this would greatly improve a long-standing problem, it'll never happen.