New player dungeon experience PC

dionchi

checkmatein3 said:

dionchi said:

Which kind of player are we going to be?

The kind of player that seeks to find enjoyment in a GAME where I can choose what I want to do.

There is no dungeon 'ethic' to waiting around any more than there is to running ahead. This is not real life, where someone is suffering because of a sickness, or needs help with food, or had their home destroyed by disaster. Nor does the game reflect life in any way (more on this below). I mean, I go around killing stuff. Argue how that motive reflects life. If I take the foundational principle presupposed in that ethic, then I could willingly ask for a tax from the super rich in the game to be distributed monthly to the less unfortunate. Such an ethic could begin to be extrapolated in many other ways, so that the less fortunate in the game receive the benefits of others, at a time and in a manner of the less fortunate's dictates.

It is a game. It says nothing about real life, or attitude. Every player chooses his or her own goals and playstyle.

What is ignored, and what you rejected in my previous post as unethical, is that from observation and experience, long time, maxed players would just as willing skip the RQ levelling dungeons than naught. Unless a player specifically CHOOSES to be a teacher once, twice, or enter into a guild that chooses to run that way, no other player can expect it. CHOICE trumps perceived EXPECTATION by others. As long as I am attempting to complete the content to the best of my knowledge and ability in the game, with my own fingers doing the play (not a program), then I am doing everything ETHICALLY, that is, according to the rules set forth by the developers.

If "maxed players would just a willing skip the RQ leveling dungeons", why don't they?

After all it isn't like "Random: Leveling Queue" isn't clearly delineated in the options.

The only reason I can figure why maxed players queue for Random Leveling content is either their mouse is possessed and has a mind of it's own - or they intentionally choose to queue for Random Leveling content...

And you are right each player gets to CHOOSE how they play, either exclusively serving their own interests with no consideration for other players - or being willing to help others out while at the same time still getting the reward at the end.

Speaking of real life, games included the choice to act ethically touches all aspects if we decide to live and play that way. Sure a player can choose to play a blackguard character, (or 'chaotic evil' for the old timers like myself) but even so I don't believe there is any real achievement from stronger more skilled people taking advantage of the weaker or lesser skilled. Just like it is normally frowned upon for adults who seal candy from a baby, what is to be gained by taking advantage of or being inconsiderate to a lower level, lesser player - especially since the inevitable outcome regardless is exactly the same - the faster more powerful player has to wait for the slower less powerful player to catch up, the party defeats the boss and everyone walks away with their prize.

But I will agree with your assessment about "each player gets to CHOOSE how they play"...

As to your statement there are 'no ethics to running dungeons', or in games... let's just say we have a difference of opinion there, particularly since the content is designed as a party function and not a solo event so in my mind one of the priorities of each player in the party is to support and assist other characters in the party - not just one they happen to be playing.

But perhaps that's just me.

checkmatein3 said:

Now, is it valid that levelling players want to learn the dungeons? Yes, it is. Is it valid and sound to argue, as the OP does and as you do, that maxed players must be nerfed more and/or expected to assume a teaching role in RQ? To the first, I answered mathematically...nerfing more is already an issue (scaling down). To the second, I said, no, it is not valid or sound.

My recommendation was to proceed to a solution where both sides get what they want by 1) game design and 2) by choice.
-snip-
When I want to help, I help. When I don't want to help, I don't help. When I want to donate stuff to friends or strangers, I decided when and what. When I don't, I don't. I express as opinion, that is...perspective, that which is part of the player base. I observe based on other posts and game play what is actually present, not what should be, and offer opinion on how to fix in design, not behavior. The OP and you will not change behavior in the game, because you cannot remove CHOICE 100%. And if the game ever did institute such a mandate in game, my first choice would be to leave the game.

I think you need to revisit the previous posts to refresh your memory...

Although the original poster did mention "scaling down", where exactly did I say anything about higher level players needing to be nerfed?

I said higher level players can "choose" to move more slowly and can "choose" not to dominate combat, but I never said anything about players being nerfed - unless it's for PVP - but that's another subject entirely.

I also never said anything about higher level players being "expected" to teach in random queues, other than I believed that was the intention of the developers when they instituted random queue content and how I personally choose to play that content.

Don't misconstrue my comments to indicate I am attempting to control how any other player plays, that's not the case...

However because of my personal view of how I think the game should be played if any player has pause to consider if they are being entirely self-serving, inconsiderate of others when in a party or if possibly there was something they could do differently to improve the game and not just themselves - I'll give them the credit for that, not myself.

greywynd

Whoever said "as easy as stealing candy from a baby" has never tried stealing candy from a baby. ~ R. Hood

checkmatein3

Let me go back and answer dionchi in his 3 criticisms as to the OP.

First, the idea was floated that scaling was insufficient to make high end players less effective in RQ dungeon runs, and therefore, more extreme measures were needed to insure that any player not at that level would lose more than scaling. My answer to that was 1) scaling of stats mathematically is not linear, 2) high end players, even with lower stats scaled still have all the other functionalities from boons, companions, etc. Therefore, the request for more extreme scaling is a removal of functionality in those items. This is a nerf. Moreover, the scaling effects floated might also be applied by the same formula in hardcore, which actually do require great play as a party. So, be careful what you wish for.

Second, high end players (all players most likely) queue up for the lowest RQ because it is an easy (almost guaranteed) 9k AD. With VIP bonus and invoke bonus, by the end of the run, the one RQ is more than 10% of the daily max. Remove the easy AD reward and put it in something else, and I am fine with it. It is illusionary to think that players will not gravitate towards the easiest path to max rewards. Cryptic came up with the design, and I will take advantage of it, until they remove it. For example, lets say that I skip the RQ, and run RIQ and RAQ and REQ only. It would take about 2 additional RIQs (with no new player bonus or role bonus) to equal one RQ. If I get a role bonus as a tank, with a new player, and I get a good RIQ like ndemo, I might get it in one extra. But, usually RIQ is going to be TODG or PoM. So, why do high end players not skip RQ? The AD reward eliminates grind in other areas of the game. So, I can judge between doing RQ once, or RIQ multiple times. Why then would I not insure RQ goes smoothly? I do. I kill everything I come across and take all the gold and open all the chests. If new players are in the queue, they can keep up or not. If I get a bot, usually it is an abandon. I do not berate new players for moving slow. I expect it. It is part of the RQ. But, if there were a way for high end players to get the easy AD that currently is in RQ without adding more grind, I believe we would do it.

Third, and we return to the actual discrepancy, what should be done in a game. The argument you put forth is what should be done in a party environment, not in a solo queue. The 'should' is dictated by your gaming philosophy which you say developers wanted when they designed the RQ system. Unfortunately, that is not the case. The RQ system was initiated in mod 9 to force players into various content. Since players drift towards the easiest path to AD, right before mod 9, eTOS was the dungeon of choice of hitting AD cap every day. The RQ system evolved to segment the dungeons into difficulty strata to divide up the way in which max AD could be achieved AND so that AD can more easily be achieved through the RQ. As a case in point, if AD is NOT the reward you are most seeking from the dungeon, why not just queue for the dungeon outside of RQ, or go to the zone where the dungeon is and ask players to form a party? The prime motivation is the easy AD that is received at end of dungeon. Additionally, the playerbase had excitement because we thought that mod 9 would bring back the epic versions of those missing dungeons, but instead, we only got the levelling ones. Go back and read the forums on this. So, the initial purpose of developers was 1) control of how players play content (which is why I say 'forced' 2) control of how max AD is achieved, and 3) obfuscate the promise to bring back old dungeons. It IS true that Cryptic has focused on attracting new players into the game, with mod 15 being a prime example. Ravenloft was a catchup, with the easy access monster hunts and artifact gear from completing the intro. It targetted new players in the campaign (not the dungeon). RQ in its design has failed spectacularly at matching newer players of any level and their motivations with older (high end players) and their motivations. Just peruse the RAQ posts and look at the vitriol. Chat channels have arisen so that RAQ and REQ can be successfully run in the 3+ 1 + 1 setup with a premade party to go into random. The same motivation drives k-team channels, and CODG channels, and on and on. The difficulty requires it to be so. The difficulty of RQ and RIQ do not require it. I can solo anything up to and including CN (VT second phase is the only exception). Almost 6 years in the game, and all dungeons are ho hum, but especially the levelling dungeons. On some days, I might go slower in a levelling dungeon, on others, I might just kill it all because I can. The ethic to consider what my party members want from the experience is entirely mute. By randomness and filtered through my own choice, I play as I want. If, as the OP states, such play does not fulfill their satisfaction, they have choices to make RQ not so random so as to avoid players like me, who, can and will just kill everything (on some days). I am not stealing their entertainment. We were put together by a formula. I will avail myself of my own play to ensure that I complete the dungeon. If that means the new player gets 'lost' in the maze in CT, then I go back. If it means showing how to kill the wolf near the boss in GWD, so be it. But, randomness is just that. I will not probe nor seek to find out the motivations of those random players in that queue. I care not. And, the whole point of posting this is again, to give a real example so that the OP and anyone else can find a real solution to the conflict without impossible suggestions like 1) suggesting dungeon behavior and focus for all (if you did not believe it should be so, you would not continue to post in response), 2) suggesting more extreme scaling (nerfs) to higher end players to force them to go slow and make the dungeons more difficult. My suggestions answer the issue immediately for the OP. Find like minded players in a guild, alliance or chat channel that will play as you want. Then form a premade party for RQ and run with those players. This will avoid players like me who really pay no attention to others in RQ. I even made suggestions of guilds that have policies of no running ahead and guild queues for RQ. That is the solution unless the whole RQ system is changed. I would personally love to have the option not to run RQ for the 9k AD if it could be made up in another way just as easily.

You can call my attitude selfish, or my game play against game design, or not in the spirit of the game. In any case, random queues will continue to be random people (no matter RQ, RIQ, RAQ, or even REQ). It is just as self-serving for new players to expect to be taught a dungeon by random party members as it is for high end players to ignore them. The OP stated his dissatisfaction (that is, his own motivation not being fulfilled) because of the play of others. One might argue, he doesn't have a choice because he is a new player and the more experienced should bend to the motivation of the new player. Ah, and that is the rub. No I don't. I don't have to bend to anyone's motivation, just like the new player does not have to bend to mine. The new player has options to do RQ and not bend to a playstyle where a player just kills everything. Does this put the new player in a more difficult situation? Yes, because the new player has 2 motivations and the high end player 1. Adding motivations and goals will result in more restricted means to achieve. Don't believe me? Try running RAQ where you want to do the secret boss if you get mSP, or how about RIQ and the secret "boss" in MC? You will most likely need to run premade or direct dungeon queues for these goals. To add motivation to any RQ for anything other than finishing the dungeon puts the impetus to achieve that on the choice of the person who wants that motivation, not on everyone else randomly construed in the party. It is not logical nor feasible to argue a change in player behavior and adding motivation as a solution to the issue that the OP has stated. Give good advice. Tell the OP to go find like-minded players. In this way, I AM teaching the OP. I do not offer impossible solutions.

As for anything PvP related, I care not.

silverkelt

There is alot of funny stuff here..

people could wait for you.. but IT WOULDN'T matter they would kill everything anyways.. in seconds, there is nothing that OP could offer whatsoever to most 70s doing this.

If you dont want 70s in it,, then fine, add this AD into the daily RiQ/RAQ breakdown at another 5k apeice.

remove leveling dungeons from the queue.

Otherwise can we stop the debate as to what players "should" or "shouldnt " do, its so meaningless .. there IS literally nothing a sub 70 will EVERY be able to do, even if people are kind enough to wait around for them.

any random hit will destroy everything. in seconds.. THEY WILL NEVER ever learn anything with a group of 70s or even one 70 in their group.

Please stop telling people what they should or shouldnt do.. most 70s will kill the ENTIRE path up to the boss on the normal pathing (I find this a acceptable practice and I wouldnt call it selfish.. they COULD of course just by pass all mobs in normal pathing and wait for the end.. would that be less selfish?) .. if said op doesn't like it, find people to group with.. or ask the game company to remove the 70s.. that IS THE ONLY solution to this nonsense..

Otherwise, please stop the flaming.. its worthless.. completely. It offers nothing.. whatsoever to the solution.

quantumff

I made an alt during the recruitment event intending to run every queue at the right level. It didn't happen. It didn't happen because the game levels too fast, but also it didn't happen because the skirmishes where it has to be level appropriate? Yeah, they don't pop.

I waited two hours for one. Another took 45 minutes to pop, two players left at the start, one player stayed in the campfire the entire rest of the (very very long) skirmish. From that point on it never got above three of us- so no chance to kick the leech. My fighting team mate changed a few times, as they got sick of struggling through a five man queue with two players. I died constantly. They died constantly. It made me question my life choices.

So no, I don't think that limiting the queues to level appropriate characters is a particuarly good idea.

I've got pretty good at spotting lowbies as a 70, and I try not to get them killed. No mobs left behind me, try and gently nudge towards the shortcuts etc. But honestly, by now most of the lowbies are probably someone's alt anyway, it doesn't feel like a game that's picking up players. And it's also annoying when your alt gets paired with a 70 who will put on autorun and wander past your struggling attempts at combat (that happened to me today, we kicked them in the end for not moving once purp was up).

It is a shame that all the interesting diversions and hidden nooks never get seen anymore, but that's how it is with the system. Nobody's gonna spend half an hour on content they can do in their sleep.

dionchi

silverkelt said:

There is alot of funny stuff here..

people could wait for you.. but IT WOULDN'T matter they would kill everything anyways.. in seconds, there is nothing that OP could offer whatsoever to most 70s doing this.

If you dont want 70s in it,, then fine, add this AD into the daily RiQ/RAQ breakdown at another 5k apeice.

remove leveling dungeons from the queue.

Otherwise can we stop the debate as to what players "should" or "shouldnt " do, its so meaningless .. there IS literally nothing a sub 70 will EVERY be able to do, even if people are kind enough to wait around for them.

any random hit will destroy everything. in seconds.. THEY WILL NEVER ever learn anything with a group of 70s or even one 70 in their group.

Please stop telling people what they should or shouldnt do.. most 70s will kill the ENTIRE path up to the boss on the normal pathing (I find this a acceptable practice and I wouldnt call it selfish.. they COULD of course just by pass all mobs in normal pathing and wait for the end.. would that be less selfish?) .. if said op doesn't like it, find people to group with.. or ask the game company to remove the 70s.. that IS THE ONLY solution to this nonsense..

Otherwise, please stop the flaming.. its worthless.. completely. It offers nothing.. whatsoever to the solution.

Actually speaking for myself, I don't think anyone is being "flamed", just responding to posts they believe have been directed at them...

I've been in dungeons with a lot of low level players - and waited for them, where I didn't "kill everything anyways"...

To attack a player has to push a button - if the player doesn't push that button - or repeatedly push/hold down that button - they don't attack and that allows other players in the party to participate.

You might consider reading the original poster's comment sometime...

justicesupreme said:

…
The last three attempts I made to run dungeons I was stuck with people who took off running like they were super speedsters and had the entire dungeon slaughtered before I was a quarter of the way into the dungeon myself, which left me not being allowed to participate or even getting to attack a mob.
...

It's about some faster, more powerful players abandoning slower players by running ahead, sometimes dominating mob combat so other players don't feel they get a chance to participate.

I don't believe it has as much to do with player level in "leveling queues", as it does with player behavior...

I've already explained that many higher level players, have other alternatives to running leveling dungeons to earn astral diamonds... I also mentioned "Leveling Queue" is clearly delineated in the random queue options, if level 70 players have a problem running with lower, slower, less experienced or less powerful players - or those lower level complaining about being abandoned by faster players or not getting to participate, perhaps level 70 players shouldn't be intentionally hitting the "leveling queue" button.

"Remove leveling dungeons from the queue"? As in no leveling player should have the opportunity to earn astral diamonds... is that really the way you meant suggest?

silverkelt said:

Please stop telling people what they should or shouldnt do...

I don't think anyone is has attempted to dictate how other players play or is trying to tell other people what they should do, but some have expressed their opinion that they believe being abandoned by someone in their party running ahead, or not being allowed to participate in mob battles mobs is "rude" and "inconsiderate". It's not the level of the player that fosters that opinion, it's "player behavior" - how the player acts (regardless of level) that seems to be the determining factor and I believe they are just as much entitled to their opinion as you believe you are entitled to yours.

All you have to do to be honest about it is to ask yourself: "If I was in new or particularly challenging content, how would I feel if everyone ran off and abandoned me to fend for myself?"

My 2¢

checkmatein3 said:

Levelling players have just as much choice in creating parties for those dungeons as any other player....
-snip-

And as a higher level player, have you ever created a party to run a private or random "leveling queues"?

If not why not... and don't you think the same reasons you haven't also apply to other players?

Just curious.

checkmatein3

If you read my whole post, I think you will answer your own questions. I answered in my last paragraph with motivation. Creating a party for RQ is only necessary for aligning of motivations. Period. Nothing else. My singular motivation is to complete RQ to get the AD reward. The OP (and you) do not share this motivation. I, therefore, can queue by myself in the fastest way possible, and complete content without relying on anyone to achieve that goal. You and the OP, and other players who want to teach and be taught, cannot, Therefore, the impetus is on you to secure your own choice/motivation. It is not upon me. To argue that I must accept your additional motivations and play that way is exactly what you are denying that you say, but continue to argue for. But, I don't have to. If you, or the OP want to run in a way that is focused on teaching or being taught, and use the most random means for multiple goals, that may not align, then the problem exists with your limited choices. My limited choice is to only rely on myself. Bots are the only thing that might stop that, not new players. And I can queue completely random and rely upon myself to do what I need to fulfill whatever I want. The reasons are not equal. If you return to the argument that RQ is for parties, my reply is, it doesn't matter. RQ does not permit soloing for the same rewards. If they did, I would do it. Then I don't have to group with any player for any RQ or RIQ content. And thus, we circle back around to 'being forced into a queue system' to play content that is inappropriate, and through a means that fails at securing equal motivations and goals. And my suggestions, though unpalatable, are real solutions. If you or the OP do not like players like me who will just kill everything in RQ because we can and have no concern for your own motivations and goals, then avoid the randomness of being matched with players like me. When I am randomly matched with players who want more, I just ignore them and do what I want, which is my choice. If they go slower and pick up gold or open every door or explore every area, I don't care. It doesn't affect me. I take it as part of the RQ. If it bothered me I would make a party with 2 friends that remove that possibility. But it doesn't. So, I don't. Go find all the chests. I will sit at final fire and get coffee. Sometimes, I am the one collecting all the gold and opening all the chests (especially in Pirate King) because I want gold. If someone runs ahead and kills, oh well. I just take the gold. I don't berate new players, saying, hurry up and run. What they do in no way affects the fact that I can complete the whole instance and just wait for them at the end.

dionchi

Sorry I find some of your post to be quite long and rambling so I will admit I did read it rather quickly and may have missed some of the salient points you were attempting to make...

Perhaps you can expedite things a little by just posting the highlights of what you believe explains the primary points you believe I failed to notice.

I would appreciate it.

The whole concept behind queuing for random content is there is a vary good chance people with differing "motivations" will be placed together...

If your singular or primary motivation is to earn astral diamonds "as quickly as possible", what difference does it make if you stay with the party and allow other party members to participate - or run ahead and have to wait for them to arrive?

It amounts to the same amount of time does it not?

By killing mobs more quickly you might be able to collect your reward a little faster - or you might not as bored players may be more inclined to just wander around since they have little else to do.

A lot of time has been taken debating this. Obviously we have differing opinions about the original poster's intent and how best to accommodate what we feel is fair and equitable play for all in the game instead of just our own interests...

But I've had my say, expressed my opinion and I just think I'll let it stand at that.

lennydarkhunter

Serious, this game experience sucks in a way where Im thinking if I should uninstall this game or not... The single content for leveling is cool, but the dungeon experience is so @!$% stupid and frustrating...

So, I've played this game in 2013 and stopped few time after it, and now I'm trying to play again and my experiences in dungeons are just <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>%#...

I did the orc and pirate dungeons in the same way... Running behind level 70 people with the most horrible level scaling a game ever will have (since even with that scaling they're just too strong and too fast for the dungeons!!), killing not a single mob and barely seeing the bosses before they just almost instakill them all.

Serious... How running behind strong player should provide anything near fun to someone??
WTF this system... Let me waiting one hour in queu, but dont queu me with high level people rushing everything faster than my character can move!!! Thats sucks!!

The game looks cool but its so poor developed if they thing their dungeon system is fine this way... Its a really noob dev work!

karvare

The truth is that if you drive the level 70's from the queue then they will die. Set for a level range and they will never pop. Just like the skirmishes.

jonkoca

Or, give a level 70 a huge "sensei" AD bonus if they a) stay within 50 ft of lowbie players at all times, and b) kill only 50% of the mobs and only one boss.

It would have to be a pretty huge bonus though.😊

dionchi

lennydarkhunter said:

Serious, this game experience sucks in a way where Im thinking if I should uninstall this game or not... The single content for leveling is cool, but the dungeon experience is so @!$% stupid and frustrating...

So, I've played this game in 2013 and stopped few time after it, and now I'm trying to play again and my experiences in dungeons are just HAMSTER%#...

I did the orc and pirate dungeons in the same way... Running behind level 70 people with the most horrible level scaling a game ever will have (since even with that scaling they're just too strong and too fast for the dungeons!!), killing not a single mob and barely seeing the bosses before they just almost instakill them all.

Serious... How running behind strong player should provide anything near fun to someone??

WTF this system... Let me waiting one hour in queu, but dont queu me with high level people rushing everything faster than my character can move!!! Thats sucks!!

The game looks cool but its so poor developed if they thing their dungeon system is fine this way... Its a really noob dev work!

I still say it's not the game, or the way it's designed but inconsiderate players. I've been in plenty of random's with higher level or 70's players who don't run off and abandoned the party. Just hazarding a guess I also believe there are more who don't than do... but it seems the ones that do tend to make more of a memorable impression for some reason.

As for higher level players killing mobs before lower level players even get a chance to target an opponent - that's "player behavior" too.

As a previously slower, low level player my fun when in a dungeon with a speed runner and/or someone who didn't seem to care if I got a chance to play was to just take my time. NOT trying to keep up with them and getting to the last gate a couple of minutes before the 'vote to kick' timer activated...

Yeah, that made me an "inconsiderate player" too, but sometimes I think you just have to speak to people in a language they seem to understand to get your point across.

karvare said:

The truth is that if you drive the level 70's from the queue then they will die. Set for a level range and they will never pop. Just like the skirmishes.

Yep that ^...

As annoying as a lot of people say being in a party with speed runners or players who completely dominate the run is, I personally think I and probably they are less perturbed by that than the alternative, having to wait 15-20-60 minutes just to get into a dungeon.

jonkoca said:

Or, give a level 70 a huge "sensei" AD bonus if they a) stay within 50 ft of lowbie players at all times, and b) kill only 50% of the mobs and only one boss.

It would have to be a pretty huge bonus though.😊

Yeah not so much (IMO)...

If people have to be paid to be considerate towards others to me that's the same as rewarding or reinforcing their inconsiderate behavior...

I hope that never happens.

Actually although I don't believe it's been pointed out but self-serving, inconsiderate behavior isn't against the games TOS it's just what it is... self-serving and inconsiderate. The interesting thing to me is how many people choose to act as they do when I'm willing to bet (with high odds) if anyone treated them with the same inconsideration as they treat others they'd be complaining about it too.

checkmatein3

Let me try and summarize the points I am making, for the OP, dionchi, and others.

ORIGINAL complaint: Level 70s in RQ are able to run ahead and kill everything, and this does not make it fun for lower players.

SUGGESTED SOLUTIONS by others in the thread so far: 1) Scale the 70s down even more so that RQ in levelling dungeons is even harder. 2) make 70s play in a way that is considerate of lower players (and newer players motivations).

MY RESPONSE TO THOSE SOLUTIONS respectively: 1) to scaling more: its a nerf and it might have more far reaching consequences than RQ (hardcore mode), 2) to changing behavior: its impossible, so find others who share what you want through chat channels, committed guild and alliances (a CURRENT solution since neither scaling works NOR behavior will change). If this is rejected, the only thing you are left with are complaints on forums that go nowhere towards player behavior AND that might cause more serious consequences elsewhere (just wait until you are scaled down for mSP or FBI, or CODG or *gasp* CR, and you find out the request for scaling is now more severe than even before). My warning is that asking for more scaling is a naive request. You know not what will happen when that same formula/system is applied elsewhere, and it places trust in the developers to get it perfectly right. Any time in this game will show that such a trust should not be assumed. Therefore, too little scaling is much better than too much. It errs on the side of completing content.

A REAL SOLUTION: remove the ability of anyone level 70 to queue for RQ and put the AD bonus elsewhere for level 70s.

Done.

dionchi

spunkmeier said:

dionchi said:

To attack a player has to push a button - if the player doesn't push that button - or repeatedly push/hold down that button - they don't attack and that allows other players in the party to participate.

This is not true.

You can run through the lowest level of Random Queues without pressing any buttons to attack and your companion and/or powers will kill things for you.

Point taken, but then at some point if someone runs by mobs, eventually a companion will abandon the fight and appear in your proximity so one can't say that with absolute certainty if they run ahead leaving the party or a player behind the companion will take care of it.

Besides if a player does run ahead, what are they going to do? Stand around and to their nails until the slowest player catches up?

I can think of absolutely no reason why a better equipped, more experienced, higher level player would think they have a good reason for completely abandoning someone(s) in their party, except for they just don't care about other players - only themselves - or a player has shown themselves to be attempting to scam, leach, AFK, or something similar.

spunkmeier said:

-snip-

The other solution is to actually make the levelling queue only give XP, so it becomes "a queue to level" for under 70's (they dont really need AD pre-70 but if they want AD before level 70 then they can still buy it).
...

I'd have to disagree, as a leveling player, a new-ish level 70 player and still now, AD's come in real handy for buying that upgraded gear, companion, mount, enchantment to help me run faster, hit harder, and level up quicker... not to mention they're also handy for defense, deflection, life steal, etc... oh and let's not forget ID scrolls, potions, etc. from the auction house if the drops are insufficient or maybe that dye pack or fashion item that makes your character feel 'special' (hey, some people are into that sort of thing).

I can't think of a player at any level who "doesn't need" astral diamonds.

Saying: pre-70's don't need AD's because... - makes about as much sense to me as saying: Level 70's don't need AD's because they can pick up adequate level 70 gear just from doing their campaigns or they already have level 70 gear.

Doesn't sound so good when it's turned back on ya' does it?

And not everyone can "buy" their way through Neverwinter.

My 2¢

nunya

dionchi said:

I can think of absolutely no reason why a better equipped, more experienced, higher level player would think they have a good reason for completely abandoning someone(s) in their party, except for they just don't care about other players - only themselves - or a player has shown themselves to be attempting to scam, leach, AFK, or something similar.

When I was still a 4k level 70 on one of my characters (I think my cleric), I had someone run all the way to the end of Karrundax's Caverns without killing anything more than necessary. When I asked them why they didn't come back and help, since I took 15 or 20 minutes to fight my way through (dying more than once), their response was "I wanted to go AFK". So I agree with you, as they fell squarely in the "don't care about other players - only themselves" category. The few times I get that dungeon, I take time to inspect the other person in the party. If they're high item level, then I just run because I know they can, too. If they're not, I slaughter everything in my path. (The third person in the group is always my wife and I know she can just run.)

klangeddin

As contronversial as it may sound, perhaps level 70s should no longer be able to queue for random levelling queue, if they want to carry their low level friends they could do so privately, but with the big lure of the AD gain (solo random queue), the problem mentioned in this thread is bound to arise, and it might turn off new players.

Either this or Cryptic fixes the debolster to put ANY level 70 on par with the dungeon instead of making everything one shottable with a sneeze.

pitmonster

Here is the thing, unless you just keep remaking new characters, you will be sub-70 for maybe .5% of your game time in NW (actually if you stick with the game and start grinding its .001%).

The problem is not sub-70 player experience, its really about new player experience. IDK, maybe some reward system for "mentoring" new players or something. That might be hard to implement but frankly the problem that needs to be fixed is ensuring new players are not discouraged starting the game so they continue to play. That benefits everyone as it keeps the MMO healthy.

klangeddin

stormson#5521 said:

The problem with this idea, is that it negates progression entirely.

You might as well make all dungeons the same difficulty, make one universal set of gear for all players, remove the level up mechanic, remove enchantments/runestones and every other player choice in the game.



Scaling (nerfing) level 70 players to that point is not a good idea.

Nah, this is just an hyperbole you're going on now. More like a strawman.
My suggestion involved only levelling dungeons, not the epic 70 dungeons where progression would remain intact and relevant as it is right now.

And besides, it was one of the two alternatives I proposed, the other one was removing level 70s from random levelling queue altogether, (removing the AD lure while allowing them to queue for those dungeons privately, if so they wished)

greywynd

Removing L70s from leveling is inherently a bad idea. As stated above, if this was done the time for the queue to pop would be a lot like the leveling PvP queues; practically non-existent.

Scaling downward doesn't seem to work all that wonderfully.

nunya

greywynd said:

Removing L70s from leveling is inherently a bad idea. As stated above, if this was done the time for the queue to pop would be a lot like the leveling PvP queues; practically non-existent.

You know what? Since the people that think this is a good idea are so insistent that this is the best way, the developers should give it to them. I'd bet they'd be on the forums inside of two weeks crying about how they can't get leveling dungeons done because nobody is queueing for them.

Even if the developers made the scaling even more intense and further reduced 70th level characters' power in these dungeons, I would bet that it would have the same net effect. Why should I waste 20 or 30 minutes of my time on RLQ when I can run a CN (or potentially two!) in that same amount of time and get 150% to 200% of that amount per run?

karvare

In some ways, the level 70's in leveling dungeons does teach people what it will be like at 70. Everything is a head on rush to the next group. Grouping up and planning? Nah! As a tank, I learned and adjusted. Gladiators guile and artificer's persuasion helps keep me in the fight.

greywynd

My GF tends to run with Steel Grace active plus Guile.

dionchi

pitmonster#5684 said:

Here is the thing, unless you just keep remaking new characters, you will be sub-70 for maybe .5% of your game time in NW (actually if you stick with the game and start grinding its .001%).

The problem is not sub-70 player experience, its really about new player experience. IDK, maybe some reward system for "mentoring" new players or something. That might be hard to implement but frankly the problem that needs to be fixed is ensuring new players are not discouraged starting the game so they continue to play. That benefits everyone as it keeps the MMO healthy.

Again do we really need to "reward" players for what I believe we should willing to do on our own, that being attempt help out new and lower level players if we’re stuck in a party with them anyway?

I’m not saying anyone has to mentor new or low level players – but when in content like random queues – just don’t run off and abandon other party members, don’t kill everything in sight and deny other party members the opportunity to participate and most importantly don’t harass anyone for being slower, inexperienced or lesser geared, we were all there at one time or another.

I don't think new players who enjoy the game will be discouraged as long as they actually have the opportunity to play - and they feel they are being treated equitably - that is to say fairly, without being taken advantage of.

klangeddin said:

As contronversial as it may sound, perhaps level 70s should no longer be able to queue for random levelling queue, if they want to carry their low level friends they could do so privately, but with the big lure of the AD gain (solo random queue), the problem mentioned in this thread is bound to arise, and it might turn off new players.

Either this or Cryptic fixes the debolster to put ANY level 70 on par with the dungeon instead of making everything one shottable with a sneeze.

I believe it has already been pointed out a few times if level 70's were disenfranchised from running leveling dungeons it would probably take much longer for those dungeons to occur… That is to say some players would be waiting in excess of 30 minutes or more just to get into a dungeon. Yes that used to be a thing excluding higher level players from lower level dungeons and as bad as some may think the current arrangement is, I personally prefer it to having to wait 45 minutes to over an hour just to get into a random queue dungeon.

So again I offer my personal perspective that there’s nothing wrong with the game, dungeons or design per-say but this all boils down to “player behavior” and what I consider to be a problem with inconsiderate, self-serving players who appear to care about no other player than themselves, so unfortunately I think this is something that is going to continue as long as there continues to be those kinds of players.

nunya#5309 said:

greywynd said:

Removing L70s from leveling is inherently a bad idea. As stated above, if this was done the time for the queue to pop would be a lot like the leveling PvP queues; practically non-existent.

You know what? Since the people that think this is a good idea are so insistent that this is the best way, the developers should give it to them. I'd bet they'd be on the forums inside of two weeks crying about how they can't get leveling dungeons done because nobody is queueing for them.

Even if the developers made the scaling even more intense and further reduced 70th level characters' power in these dungeons, I would bet that it would have the same net effect. Why should I waste 20 or 30 minutes of my time on RLQ when I can run a CN (or potentially two!) in that same amount of time and get 150% to 200% of that amount per run?

I believe the only people who think removing level 70's from random leveling queues are those who never experienced what it used to be like previously when that was a thing... are we really suggesting subjecting them to something like what it used to be, the long waits, etc. for what could well be just their lack of experience or understanding?

Also I agree scaling down higher level characters likely won't help because if a player is self-serving and inconsiderate, they will likely remain so regardless of their character level and item level if they don’t do it one way, they’ll find (or try to find) another way to do it.

As far as I know all higher level players, including myself run RLQ's for the same reason and it has even been stated in other threads - "quick and easy astral diamonds", but in that respect, we shouldn’t forget there are also other players for whom the AD payout is just an extra bonus to running that content – a new player, a not so new player trying to become more familiar with RLQ content or to complete a campaign tree requirement.

As far as I’m concerned everyone has the right to be in random leveling queue dungeons, but no one has cause or justification for treating another player – particularly a party member – inconsiderately or trying to take advantage of them.

nunya

dionchi said:

I believe the only people who think removing level 70's from random leveling queues are those who never experienced what it used to be like previously when that was a thing... are we really suggesting subjecting them to something like what it used to be, the long waits, etc. for what could well be just their lack of experience or understanding?

Why, yes. Yes, I am. I remember the time before the change to the way random queues are now. It was almost impossible to get into a dungeon within a reasonable amount of time. It was bad enough that I gave up on dungeons entirely until after the change to random queues. Since they won't listen to the people who experienced it, think the current situation is so bad, and that removing level 70 characters from the Random Leveling Queue would be so great, then I think they should get exactly what they are requesting. Let them experience first-hand just how great a solution removing high level characters from public low level dungeon runs would be.

dionchi said:

As far as I know all higher level players, including myself run RLQ's for the same reason and it has even been stated in other threads - "quick and easy astral diamonds", but in that respect, we shouldn’t forget there are also other players for whom the AD payout is just an extra bonus to running that content – a new player, a not so new player trying to become more familiar with RLQ content or to complete a campaign tree requirement.

Astral diamonds (and Dungeoneer's Shards from the Cleric) are why I subject myself to any random dungeons. I've only really worked on three of my nine characters, which means that only those three have any kind of advanced run-speed. My other six characters are really not much faster than sub-level 70 characters; they typically have only three rank 7 dark enchantments because I haven't unlocked the slots in the neck and belt. In fact, my wife and I were on slow alts last night in the RLQ and the level 29 character in there with us had absolutely no trouble keeping up. The point being that just because a character is level 70 doesn't mean that it can simply run ahead without killing anything, and leave the sub-level 70 character(s) behind to slog through it on their own.

I don't even take my 15.3k warlock or 13.3k paladin through the RLQ anymore. I don't like to because, honestly, I simply move too quickly. Fast enough that my warlock's soul puppet and companion don't have time to mop up all the mobs as I run by. Similarly, my paladin's aura and companion don't have time to tick and slaughter the mobs, either. Frankly, I don't have the patience to stop every few steps to kill a small group of way-too-easy monsters. And I really don't have the patience to wait for what could be a super low level character that simply cannot run any faster to catch up to me at the end of the dungeon. It's not fun for me to do that, and it's certainly not fun for them. Plus, as stated, I simply have too many other alts to use for this, and the bonus there is that they actually earn more rAD because they hardly get played and so they have a massive invocation bonus. The highest item level character I run through RLQ is my 12k ranger because I don't feel like he's able to contribute properly in RIQ, and I haven't had the AD available to work on his gear situation.

pitmonster

dionchi said:

pitmonster#5684 said:

Here is the thing, unless you just keep remaking new characters, you will be sub-70 for maybe .5% of your game time in NW (actually if you stick with the game and start grinding its .001%).

The problem is not sub-70 player experience, its really about new player experience. IDK, maybe some reward system for "mentoring" new players or something. That might be hard to implement but frankly the problem that needs to be fixed is ensuring new players are not discouraged starting the game so they continue to play. That benefits everyone as it keeps the MMO healthy.

Again do we really need to "reward" players for what I believe we should willing to do on our own, that being attempt help out new and lower level players if we’re stuck in a party with them anyway?

I’m not saying anyone has to mentor new or low level players – but when in content like random queues – just don’t run off and abandon other party members, don’t kill everything in sight and deny other party members the opportunity to participate and most importantly don’t harass anyone for being slower, inexperienced or lesser geared, we were all there at one time or another.

I don't think new players who enjoy the game will be discouraged as long as they actually have the opportunity to play - and they feel they are being treated equitably - that is to say fairly, without being taken advantage of.

Well from the very fact that this topic comes up all the time its safe to assume that, no, experienced players are not helping new players. I assume many on these forums are but we are a very small subset. And putting a ceiling on LV to enter leveling runs does not work because then the queues never pop, the 70 level PCs are there to fill the queue.

Heck, this game isn't even that bad compared to other ones (mostly PVP types) where you get greaved left and right.

dionchi

nunya#5309 said:

dionchi said:

I believe the only people who think removing level 70's from random leveling queues are those who never experienced what it used to be like previously when that was a thing... are we really suggesting subjecting them to something like what it used to be, the long waits, etc. for what could well be just their lack of experience or understanding?

Why, yes. Yes, I am. I remember the time before the change to the way random queues are now. It was almost impossible to get into a dungeon within a reasonable amount of time. It was bad enough that I gave up on dungeons entirely until after the change to random queues. Since they won't listen to the people who experienced it, think the current situation is so bad, and that removing level 70 characters from the Random Leveling Queue would be so great, then I think they should get exactly what they are requesting. Let them experience first-hand just how great a solution removing high level characters from public low level dungeon runs would be.

dionchi said:

As far as I know all higher level players, including myself run RLQ's for the same reason and it has even been stated in other threads - "quick and easy astral diamonds", but in that respect, we shouldn’t forget there are also other players for whom the AD payout is just an extra bonus to running that content – a new player, a not so new player trying to become more familiar with RLQ content or to complete a campaign tree requirement.

Astral diamonds (and Dungeoneer's Shards from the Cleric) are why I subject myself to any random dungeons. I've only really worked on three of my nine characters, which means that only those three have any kind of advanced run-speed. My other six characters are really not much faster than sub-level 70 characters; they typically have only three rank 7 dark enchantments because I haven't unlocked the slots in the neck and belt. In fact, my wife and I were on slow alts last night in the RLQ and the level 29 character in there with us had absolutely no trouble keeping up. The point being that just because a character is level 70 doesn't mean that it can simply run ahead without killing anything, and leave the sub-level 70 character(s) behind to slog through it on their own.

I don't even take my 15.3k warlock or 13.3k paladin through the RLQ anymore. I don't like to because, honestly, I simply move too quickly. Fast enough that my warlock's soul puppet and companion don't have time to mop up all the mobs as I run by. Similarly, my paladin's aura and companion don't have time to tick and slaughter the mobs, either. Frankly, I don't have the patience to stop every few steps to kill a small group of way-too-easy monsters. And I really don't have the patience to wait for what could be a super low level character that simply cannot run any faster to catch up to me at the end of the dungeon. It's not fun for me to do that, and it's certainly not fun for them. Plus, as stated, I simply have too many other alts to use for this, and the bonus there is that they actually earn more rAD because they hardly get played and so they have a massive invocation bonus. The highest item level character I run through RLQ is my 12k ranger because I don't feel like he's able to contribute properly in RIQ, and I haven't had the AD available to work on his gear situation.

I haven’t seen the same person post the suggestion of removing level 70’s from the dungeons twice, I have see a couple of different people, who may or may not have read previous posts and replies suggest level 70’s be taken out of leveling dungeons so I’m not sure that constitutes “they won’t listen to the people who experienced it”.

I just thought you were being facetious, offering a tongue in cheek reply… I still believe trying to explain how unpleasant the dungeons were before 70's were allowed back in to the people who suggest 70’s be excluded rather than allowing them to experience the same unpleasantness we did is a better solution, but whatever… it just seems excluding 70’s again, despite what I thought we’ve already learned seems like a giant step backwards instead of any kind of progress.

But then perhaps I’m wrong.

Granted there are some lower level players who do have an impressive list of boons and enhancements and I’m just guessing but I’m willing to bet that level 29 you ran with was someone’s alternate character or perhaps even a lower level character that was fortunate enough to be taken in by a high ranking guild with high movement Boons.

That works very well for alternate characters or the new or low level characters who are lucky enough to be adopted by a guild with strong Stronghold Boons but few new or low level players often have that same advantage and I’m willing to venture a guess the majority of new or low level players (who aren’t alts) don’t.

From reading your previous posts, it seems you and your wife are disinclined to abandon other party members or leave mobs for stragglers to contend with and for that I offer recognition and my personal compliments…

But as to the suggestion we revert to restricting level 70 players from RLQ dungeons to teach those who have suggested it a lesson – not so much

pitmonster#5684 said:

dionchi said:

pitmonster#5684 said:

Here is the thing, unless you just keep remaking new characters, you will be sub-70 for maybe .5% of your game time in NW (actually if you stick with the game and start grinding its .001%).

The problem is not sub-70 player experience, its really about new player experience. IDK, maybe some reward system for "mentoring" new players or something. That might be hard to implement but frankly the problem that needs to be fixed is ensuring new players are not discouraged starting the game so they continue to play. That benefits everyone as it keeps the MMO healthy.

Again do we really need to "reward" players for what I believe we should willing to do on our own, that being attempt help out new and lower level players if we’re stuck in a party with them anyway?

I’m not saying anyone has to mentor new or low level players – but when in content like random queues – just don’t run off and abandon other party members, don’t kill everything in sight and deny other party members the opportunity to participate and most importantly don’t harass anyone for being slower, inexperienced or lesser geared, we were all there at one time or another.

I don't think new players who enjoy the game will be discouraged as long as they actually have the opportunity to play - and they feel they are being treated equitably - that is to say fairly, without being taken advantage of.

Well from the very fact that this topic comes up all the time its safe to assume that, no, experienced players are not helping new players. I assume many on these forums are but we are a very small subset. And putting a ceiling on LV to enter leveling runs does not work because then the queues never pop, the 70 level PCs are there to fill the queue.

Heck, this game isn't even that bad compared to other ones (mostly PVP types) where you get greaved left and right.

It just may be me but I don't believe it's "safe to assume" veteran players don't help new players at all in my opinion.

Few people seem to be compelled to post when everything's going as they think it should be and tend to post mostly when they think there is a perceived problem or they have a complaint...

I would say that there appear to be reoccurring posts about some players running ahead and abandoning the other people in their party or that some players have a tendency to kill everything in their path to the extent some don’t feel they have the opportunity to participate seems to me to indicate it is a reoccurring problem, but for all any of us know it could be perpetrated by a very small group of people who just tend to be very active.

Just speaking for myself I have witnessed many more occasions where players (high and low) have been helpful and considerate than the reverse, but as they say “the squeaky wheel gets the grease”.

Just my 2¢

majorcharvenak

*comment deleted*