Well, I apologize for taking issue with your position earlier in this thread. This is the source of our differences, right there. You used to run RAQ, while I avoid anything above RIQ. I avoid RAQ specifically because of the problems you encountered, and - to be honest - because I just don't want to work that hard for rAD.
@yperkeimenos You are aware that you can only vote kick someone every four hours, right? As for stricter penalties, there absolutely should be a penalty if someone opts to completely leave the instance without leaving the party, which leaves the party who are actually trying hamstrung because they can't proceed past a pink swirl due to the one member who isn't even in the dungeon.
You know what the solution to your FBI problem is? "Vote Abandon". There you go. Vote to abandon the instance. When it succeeds, nobody takes a penalty. That's the perfect solution when a team is under-geared for a dungeon.
And you don't seem to be aware that you can kick someone only 5 minutes into an instance, before the 4 hours timer starts, while it takes 3 times as much time to vote Abandon. Also the party i was in voted no eventhough we couldn't finish the instance, making me effectively a hostage, in which case i had to leave the instance and receive the 30 minutes penalty and this has happened more than once.Seriously, read my comment more carefully please. Also i'm against any form of leavers penalty when it comes to public random queues where the player has no control over either party configuration or dungeon chosen.
Seems to me if any player finds themselves in a party of other players or location they don't like, especially if if they queue random, knowing in advance they will have no control over party configuration or dungeon, they should just 'suck it up', do their best and move on...
It's what, usually no more than 5 to 15 (at the most) minutes out of anyone's life? Then they can requeue and hope to get a better party and dungeon.
But for someone to say they just want to be able to quit, without penalty, whenever they queue for random content and don't get the dungeon or the party they want...
Go form a group if you want control over the party makeup. If you go random, you play the hand you are dealt. Or take a penalty.
^ that.
My 2¢
Aside from the fact that this is a very one sided way of viewing public queues, the same argument can be made both ways. If you want to use a public queue, instead of asking for people to be penalized for abandoning a hopeless situation, you can "Suck it up" and go run it with a premade. No reason to demand from other people to carry you, who have no obligation to do so to begin with.
Actually I think it would be difficult to make the same argument both ways.
In one case we are talking about a person wanting to leave without penalty because they queued for a "random" dungeon and got a dungeon they don't want to run... Or because they queued for (once again) a "random" run - which includes a collection of "random" players and they don't like the players they've been partied with.
In the other case...
Well actually there isn't another case.
Just about everyone knows if they queue for random runs, they won't be able to pick the dungeon they run or who is in their party with them. The only thing the party has any control over is whether or not to remove a player for improper behavior and that type of unacceptable behavior is listed on the "Vote to Kick" dropdown once the vote is initiated.
So it looks like you're right my reply was one sided...
A player who queues for "random" content should deal with the "random" content they've asked for... or make the choice to leave the instance and receive a penalty.
Post edited by dionchi on
DD~
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greywyndMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 7,095Arc User
I'm still seeing calls like "RAQ - Tong only".
I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
Perhaps enforce a dungeon lock - which is essentially once you queue up for a dungeon, your character is locked into that dungeon until it is completed. Should you disconnect - when you log back in, you will log into that dungeon you left but with a different random party. In other words, once you queue up, you are committed to complete that dungeon or else remain in that dungeon indefinitely.
That should severely discourage chronic dungeon abandoners and bot users alike.
"Talent is a flame. Genius is a fire." - Sir Bernard Williams
^ there will be a new movie out next year...lost in CR...spoiler: a 16k + 4 random 13k are stuck there forever cause they lack of dps/buffs for second boss...will have awesome human interactions...great idea!
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greywyndMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 7,095Arc User
Do they want to be carried? Or do they want experience in a dungeon that the game says they are ready for?
I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
Do they want to be carried? Or do they want experience in a dungeon that the game says they are ready for?
The amount of new players(Like in 'There is a new player in the instance') in those dungeons is not *that* high. So most players know what they are going for. And they will have seen that their contribution is minimal. So the 'being carried' argument is very close.
Idea before tag,player will be pass a challenge. exemple for a dps : - Tong : hit something, you have dps you go - CR : hit something you have the dps needed you go - CODG : escape 50 aoe you go
Perhaps enforce a dungeon lock - which is essentially once you queue up for a dungeon, your character is locked into that dungeon until it is completed. Should you disconnect - when you log back in, you will log into that dungeon you left but with a different random party. In other words, once you queue up, you are committed to complete that dungeon or else remain in that dungeon indefinitely.
That should severely discourage chronic dungeon abandoners and bot users alike.
Well I don't so much care for the "indefinitely" part but that can be easily negated by allowing a unanimous "Abandon" vote if all else fails.
But then I just happened to think, "bots" and AFK'ers don't usually respond to a call for a vote, so maybe this isn't a suggestion that would "easily negate" the problem after all... but it would probably make it much easier to identify bots and AFK'ers...
Do they want to be carried? Or do they want experience in a dungeon that the game says they are ready for?
Seem to me a lot of people who have more experience, higher character levels and better gear spend a lot of time complaining about having to "carry" other players...
I guess some players have forgotten what it was like to run content before they got that experience, level and gear and other players had to "carry" them ~
Do they want to be carried? Or do they want experience in a dungeon that the game says they are ready for?
The amount of new players(Like in 'There is a new player in the instance') in those dungeons is not *that* high. So most players know what they are going for. And they will have seen that their contribution is minimal. So the 'being carried' argument is very close.
Sometimes it took me two or three (or more) runs in the same area to actually figure out what can be done there. I wasn't necessarily a "new player", but I was inexperienced.
For instance if I was in a random dungeon with a speed runner and they take off leaving me or everyone else behind, all I knew about the dungeon was there was a lot of stuff scattered all over the place - or hoards of mobs that I had to fight my way through. Temple of the Spider would be a good example. I don't know how many runs it took before I happened to be close enough to see someone take a couple of the "short cuts".
But at "minimal contribution", those players are still contributing, often to the best of their ability (been there too) and as I understand it that is one of the purposes for dungeons and skirmishes - and the change to random dungeons and skirmishes, not only to give players experience but the opportunity to learn from more experienced players how to better navigate that content.
Not arguing there aren't some lurkers, leechers and cheaters, there are... but from my experience there are just more players who lack the gear, skills or experience to do some of those runs as effectively as better geared, more skilled and experienced players.
@yperkeimenos You are aware that you can only vote kick someone every four hours, right? As for stricter penalties, there absolutely should be a penalty if someone opts to completely leave the instance without leaving the party, which leaves the party who are actually trying hamstrung because they can't proceed past a pink swirl due to the one member who isn't even in the dungeon.
You know what the solution to your FBI problem is? "Vote Abandon". There you go. Vote to abandon the instance. When it succeeds, nobody takes a penalty. That's the perfect solution when a team is under-geared for a dungeon.
And you don't seem to be aware that you can kick someone only 5 minutes into an instance, before the 4 hours timer starts, while it takes 3 times as much time to vote Abandon. Also the party i was in voted no eventhough we couldn't finish the instance, making me effectively a hostage, in which case i had to leave the instance and receive the 30 minutes penalty and this has happened more than once.Seriously, read my comment more carefully please. Also i'm against any form of leavers penalty when it comes to public random queues where the player has no control over either party configuration or dungeon chosen.
Seems to me if any player finds themselves in a party of other players or location they don't like, especially if if they queue random, knowing in advance they will have no control over party configuration or dungeon, they should just 'suck it up', do their best and move on...
It's what, usually no more than 5 to 15 (at the most) minutes out of anyone's life? Then they can requeue and hope to get a better party and dungeon.
But for someone to say they just want to be able to quit, without penalty, whenever they queue for random content and don't get the dungeon or the party they want...
Go form a group if you want control over the party makeup. If you go random, you play the hand you are dealt. Or take a penalty.
^ that.
My 2¢
Aside from the fact that this is a very one sided way of viewing public queues, the same argument can be made both ways. If you want to use a public queue, instead of asking for people to be penalized for abandoning a hopeless situation, you can "Suck it up" and go run it with a premade. No reason to demand from other people to carry you, who have no obligation to do so to begin with.
Actually I think it would be difficult to make the same argument both ways.
In one case we are talking about a person wanting to leave without penalty because they queued for a "random" dungeon and got a dungeon they don't want to run... Or because they queued for (once again) a "random" run - which includes a collection of "random" players and they don't like the players they've been partied with.
In the other case...
Well actually there isn't another case.
Just about everyone knows if they queue for random runs, they won't be able to pick the dungeon they run or who is in their party with them. The only thing the party has any control over is whether or not to remove a player for improper behavior and that type of unacceptable behavior is listed on the "Vote to Kick" dropdown once the vote is initiated.
So it looks like you're right my reply was one sided...
A player who queues for "random" content should deal with the "random" content they've asked for... or make the choice to leave the instance and receive a penalty.
Actually the same argument can be made both ways, people do know that queuing for a public random queue will potentially get them in any of the listed dungeons and with a team of random players and gs. So if they don't expect to be able to finish it then they shouldn't queue in the first place and instead of demanding,not asking politely mind you, from other players to carry them and essentially do for them what they can't, they should find a premade. Most people run random queues for the daily ad reward anyway and not necessarily to finish the dungeon, for which they can queue separately if they want to. So Penalizing players for abandoning a hopeless situation does nothing to promote player cooperation but instead inflames an already bad situation. Personally i'm not gonna spend hours of my time, with a random low gs team, trying to finish a dungeon we can't do anyway, for the small daily ad reward. I run premades for Raq and only use the public queue for random Intermediate and leveling, which i know there is a very good chance of finishing with most random parties.
Comments
In one case we are talking about a person wanting to leave without penalty because they queued for a "random" dungeon and got a dungeon they don't want to run... Or because they queued for (once again) a "random" run - which includes a collection of "random" players and they don't like the players they've been partied with.
In the other case...
Well actually there isn't another case.
Just about everyone knows if they queue for random runs, they won't be able to pick the dungeon they run or who is in their party with them. The only thing the party has any control over is whether or not to remove a player for improper behavior and that type of unacceptable behavior is listed on the "Vote to Kick" dropdown once the vote is initiated.
So it looks like you're right my reply was one sided...
A player who queues for "random" content should deal with the "random" content they've asked for... or make the choice to leave the instance and receive a penalty.
That should severely discourage chronic dungeon abandoners and bot users alike.
- Tong : hit something, you have dps you go
- CR : hit something you have the dps needed you go
- CODG : escape 50 aoe you go
Well I don't so much care for the "indefinitely" part but that can be easily negated by allowing a unanimous "Abandon" vote if all else fails.
But then I just happened to think, "bots" and AFK'ers don't usually respond to a call for a vote, so maybe this isn't a suggestion that would "easily negate" the problem after all... but it would probably make it much easier to identify bots and AFK'ers...
I guess some players have forgotten what it was like to run content before they got that experience, level and gear and other players had to "carry" them ~ Sometimes it took me two or three (or more) runs in the same area to actually figure out what can be done there. I wasn't necessarily a "new player", but I was inexperienced.
For instance if I was in a random dungeon with a speed runner and they take off leaving me or everyone else behind, all I knew about the dungeon was there was a lot of stuff scattered all over the place - or hoards of mobs that I had to fight my way through. Temple of the Spider would be a good example. I don't know how many runs it took before I happened to be close enough to see someone take a couple of the "short cuts".
But at "minimal contribution", those players are still contributing, often to the best of their ability (been there too) and as I understand it that is one of the purposes for dungeons and skirmishes - and the change to random dungeons and skirmishes, not only to give players experience but the opportunity to learn from more experienced players how to better navigate that content.
Not arguing there aren't some lurkers, leechers and cheaters, there are... but from my experience there are just more players who lack the gear, skills or experience to do some of those runs as effectively as better geared, more skilled and experienced players.