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OFFICIAL FEEDBACK THREAD: Professions Overhaul

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  • pitmonster#5684 pitmonster Member Posts: 537 Arc User
    lowjohn said:



    I see other people complaining that they won't be able to Gather enough materials to keep their other professions fed?

    Still. I don't think anyone's "getting screwed" by only getting Gathering for free, or by other people getting Gathering if they weren't using Leadership.

    So basically you have people who bothered to raise an entire profession, one that I might add took me an entire year to raise and only on one character, and you are just giving away the equivalent amount of time invested of raising that to someone who raised some other profession, for absolutely nothing, free, here take it, its yours, enjoy.

    How are some people not getting screwed?

  • asterdahlasterdahl Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 1,258 Cryptic Developer

    Just a modest proposal that might actually be possible.

    If you are going to make gold the currency of crafting please include an exchange like the zen/diamonds exchange or at least the ability to list gold as an item on the auction house.

    I seriously doubt that even the most dedicated crafters want to stand around in protectors enclave shouting "X AD for 100 gold" and I am even more certain most people don't want them there doing that.

    It is currently possible to exchange gold on the auction house with treasure items like platinum bowls. Admittedly, this is not the most intuitive process, but it will be possible to easily buy gold bars from a vendor in module 15 which can be sold on the auction house, then resold for gold.
  • alphastreamalphastream Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 206 Arc User
    asterdahl said:

    That is to say, depending on the profit margin on individual recipes at the time, those who are focused on crafting can always buy gold from others. With each sale turning around and reinvesting a portion of their profit in more gold.

    Right now the items (such as Vistani-level or about that equipment) don't sound like big enough AD makers to be worth crafting. The system seems to me too cumbersome to be worth it. I want to play the game.

    What did work for me, fantastically, were the basic Chult recipes. To me, these were amazing. I could play the game, making progress on the campaign, and meantime pick up stuff from nodes or kills. Very little time investment (or I could buy the materials on the AH). Then I could craft one of many items which were decent in terms of power and then could sell them for very good profits. Profits were good at the start of the Chult campaign and all the way until Ravenloft (because Ravenloft flooded the market with superior gear). Now the Chult gear is unpalatable, even as starting gear, so no one bothers.

    My worry is that you've created a system many many times more convoluted than the basic Chult crafting, added a ton of time and input costs, disassociated it from campaign play, and the gear may not be desirable even for new level 70 characters.

    Do you feel like that is an unwarranted worry? Am I not seeing it right? (Perhaps I'm not)
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  • theycallmetomutheycallmetomu Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,861 Arc User

    > @lowjohn said:

    > Your Gathering level will be set to your highest profession level. If that's Leadership, you get gathering based on your Leadership. If that's not Leadership, you'll get Gathering based on whatever your highest profession is.



    I thought that was how it was supposed to work, but that did not happen for me. I had 2 professions at 25 and Leadership was 18. Upon completion of the tutorial my Gathering was not at 35, but my other professions were. So I thought I read something wrong or misunderstood what was written.



    This could be another "fix-up" issue with this build.

    Sooooo, let me get this strait... if you maxed Leadership only, for M15 you get gathering... which is useless without doing some other profession. But if you had leadership at LV1 and had something else maxed out, not only do you get the equivalent boost in that profession in M15 but you also get the maxed out gathering...????

    This sounds like a LOT of people are getting ROYALLY SCREWED in m15.

    the people who focused purely on Leadership were already getting the most benefit out of professions, because Leadership was the only really valuable profession for most people. They got the benefit they needed.
    "The most benefit" does not equate to the only benefit. That is like saying "we are gutting the GWF because for years you guys got the most benefit from it", it makes no sense, we are playing the game they created using the rules they created. Now if they did not give max gathering away to those that did not have leadership max then it would still be HAMSTER for those playing leadership but at least not a double screw over as it is now.

    I mean its just a big HAMSTER you to a huge player base. Why would you do that to people that you want to spend money on your game? I just don't get the logic.

    People who benefit from a broken system lose out when the broken system is fixed or replaced by another system. That's perfectly normal. I get that the people who have leadership armies dislike that they're losing their leadership armies, and yeah, they invested in them. That's frustrating, and you could argue that any change in the professions system should give more heads up before changing so people have at least an X month lead where they know not to invest into maxing it.

    But that doesn't mean changing/removing the broken system isn't the best way forwards. It just means some people feeling like they got a raw deal is an unfortunate side effect of progress.
  • mechjockeymechjockey Member Posts: 265 Arc User
    asterdahl said:

    Just a modest proposal that might actually be possible.

    If you are going to make gold the currency of crafting please include an exchange like the zen/diamonds exchange or at least the ability to list gold as an item on the auction house.

    I seriously doubt that even the most dedicated crafters want to stand around in protectors enclave shouting "X AD for 100 gold" and I am even more certain most people don't want them there doing that.

    It is currently possible to exchange gold on the auction house with treasure items like platinum bowls. Admittedly, this is not the most intuitive process, but it will be possible to easily buy gold bars from a vendor in module 15 which can be sold on the auction house, then resold for gold.
    With any luck that will work and at least people who have gold will now have a market for it.
  • mechjockeymechjockey Member Posts: 265 Arc User

    lowjohn said:



    I see other people complaining that they won't be able to Gather enough materials to keep their other professions fed?

    Still. I don't think anyone's "getting screwed" by only getting Gathering for free, or by other people getting Gathering if they weren't using Leadership.

    So basically you have people who bothered to raise an entire profession, one that I might add took me an entire year to raise and only on one character, and you are just giving away the equivalent amount of time invested of raising that to someone who raised some other profession, for absolutely nothing, free, here take it, its yours, enjoy.

    How are some people not getting screwed?

    You have to understand the context and mindset of people arguing this.

    They resented the playstyle people using leadership have. They thought running lots of alts was something that was free and without effort. This would be despite the obvious fact they disliked the process enough to wish it gone. What's more if they couldn't enjoy it no one should.

    From their point of view
    If you spent 3 or 4 million diamonds on purple leadership well you should be punished and the fact that they are now nearly worthless is just part of how it happens.

    If you didn't actually get years out of it, so much the better from their point of view.
  • pitmonster#5684 pitmonster Member Posts: 537 Arc User



    People who benefit from a broken system lose out when the broken system is fixed or replaced by another system. That's perfectly normal. I get that the people who have leadership armies dislike that they're losing their leadership armies, and yeah, they invested in them. That's frustrating, and you could argue that any change in the professions system should give more heads up before changing so people have at least an X month lead where they know not to invest into maxing it.

    But that doesn't mean changing/removing the broken system isn't the best way forwards. It just means some people feeling like they got a raw deal is an unfortunate side effect of progress.

    How was leadership "broken"? I mean it was not some loophole from some very complex system, it was pretty strait forward and people ran it exactly the way it was built. People invested game time and some AD to buy purple assets. People used zen and bought more alt slots.

    And as I noted, if you migrated leadership into gathering, OK, it completely changes the whole flavor of the profession but oh well. But on top of that you just give away the level that you worked for to others for free for having some other profession at that level... I mean wow.

    Why not just set gathering at max level for your highest level like you are already doing then give people with leadership the equivalent level in any profession of their choice? That would at least seem to be the fairest migration. Say you raised both weaponsmithing and leadership, you would get weaponsmithing and gathering and another profession at that level while someone who only raised leadership would get gathering and a profession of their choice.

    Remember that the point of the game, for Cryptic, is to make profit and pissing people off is not exactly the way to do that.

  • chidionchidion Member Posts: 412 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    Personal perspective:

    Seems to me in addition to all of the other "grinding", "farming" or whatever one wants to call it, now players will be expected to "grind for gold" in order to more effectively accommodate the "adjustments to the current {professions} recipe costs".

    Surprise! It seems the game developers have come up with yet another repetitive farming imperative... the last time a few items became more valuable, for instance blue gear which can be converted to refinement points, it seemed to me the chance of encountering a blue gear drop became less frequent.

    Prior to the implementation of conversion of gear for refinement points I don't recall a single instance of running the Elemental "Gathering Seeds for Goodness" or "Seeds for Everyone" when that run didn't result in at least one drop of high level blue gear item (Item Level 345,150 RP's) and usually the run resulted in multiple drops of blue (Item Level 345) gear items. Now it is a rarity to find a single blue gear (item level 345, 150 RP's) drop from multiple "Gathering Seeds for Goodness" and "Seeds for Everyone" runs.

    Are we now to expect a prospective nerf to our present gold drop amounts to necessitate even more repetitive grinding?

    Just wondering.

    **Enough with the grinding already!
  • krailovkrailov Member Posts: 302 Arc User
    A lot of comments on the Leadership side, one idea I propose is that for every current rank in leadership, you get a gatherer/artisan token (BtA). At rank 25, that would be 25 tokens - which would be enough to purchase a purple level artisan of your choice. Supplement gold/AD/Zen to make up any difference or buy enough tokens to reach the 25 mark. By being BtA, you can send them all to one toon if you like.

    For those with alt armies, the intention is that the new system is HARD, to stop the use of alt armies! You focus on one toon, put the effort in, reap the rewards. Having said that, the 3-task gathering limit will only encourage the alt army again, so I think that needs to be looked at from that point of view.

    Might is not always right - the powerful sometimes forget that.

    The Small Band
  • krailovkrailov Member Posts: 302 Arc User
    One question about the artisan limit - will there be an 'overflow' option? If we win/get a drop/open a chest in future and already have our max artisans, it would be good to have the overflow section to allow us to then go through and decide if we want to dismiss an existing one to make room for the new guy/gal or dismiss the newbie...

    Might is not always right - the powerful sometimes forget that.

    The Small Band
  • strathkinstrathkin Member Posts: 1,247 Arc User
    What can we buy with currency for items sold to the lady near the Auction House?
    I mean I can clearly see what she is willing to buy and managed to sell her 10, 20, 50k of items for 25,000-50,000 of her currency.

    But I couldn't FIND anywhere to buy anything or at least nothing in the AI campaign menu either for the currency unless that's the later unlock once the campaign is completed.
  • jaraxellejaraxelle Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 31 Arc User
    @asterdahl Sorry for bothering again... I am horrible with navigating forums so this may have been answered. Will we be able to build our little chests and bags that we build in leadership (currently) for RP?
    BLACK VANGUARD & RED VANGUARD
    - Leadership Team
  • empalasempalas Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 797 Arc User
    jaraxelle said:

    @asterdahl Sorry for bothering again... I am horrible with navigating forums so this may have been answered. Will we be able to build our little chests and bags that we build in leadership (currently) for RP?

    Not the bags but you can gather raw refining mats and then jewelcrafting to create the jewel...so enchanting stones or marks. And it now costs gold for each task.
  • seveninchbladeseveninchblade Member Posts: 75 Arc User
    krailov said:

    One question about the artisan limit - will there be an 'overflow' option? If we win/get a drop/open a chest in future and already have our max artisans, it would be good to have the overflow section to allow us to then go through and decide if we want to dismiss an existing one to make room for the new guy/gal or dismiss the newbie...

    That would be a very bad idea.
    Charisma was my dump stat.
  • rickcase276rickcase276 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,387 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    Only question I have is, once you start a gathering quest to "gather all that you can" how do you stop it? I saw no way to do it, and mine have been collecting raw amethyst and siltstone for 4 days now. When I was collecting copper ore it stopped once the collection box was filled, but the amethyst and siltstone never seem to fill it. And I am up to almost 1000 of each item, even with using the corresponding crafting tasks.
  • asterdahlasterdahl Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 1,258 Cryptic Developer
    strathkin said:

    What can we buy with currency for items sold to the lady near the Auction House?
    I mean I can clearly see what she is willing to buy and managed to sell her 10, 20, 50k of items for 25,000-50,000 of her currency.

    But I couldn't FIND anywhere to buy anything or at least nothing in the AI campaign menu either for the currency unless that's the later unlock once the campaign is completed.

    That currency simply represents your credit with the South Sea Trading Company which is ultimately going towards your workshop upgrades. Once the upgrade has been completed, that is the company paying you back the credit. (In other words, that's you spending the currency.)

    You can actually deposit astral diamonds directly as credit if you reach the step in the quest where you would otherwise be blocked by not having the required amount of credit for each upgrade. Filling commissions is simply an alternate way of progressing those quests.
  • onodrainonodrain Member Posts: 332 Arc User
    edited September 2018

    Only question I have is, once you start a gathering quest to "gather all that you can" how do you stop it? I saw no way to do it, and mine have been collecting raw amethyst and siltstone for 4 days now. When I was collecting copper ore it stopped once the collection box was filled, but the amethyst and siltstone never seem to fill it. And I am up to almost 1000 of each item, even with using the corresponding crafting tasks.

    I noticed that some of the tasks keep going when the chest is full. The overflow gets put into the chest, loading up items about every 2 seconds. Open the chest and watch it populate. Take the items out when the chest is full. Basically, you have to get all the items that have been gathered before you can stop a specific gathering task. Once you see the "gathering in progress" for your task in the chest, then you can cancel that task on the job board.

    If you have been running tasks that are very short in length, you will have a lot of overflow to collect.
  • psonnwroth#9192 psonnwroth Member Posts: 10 Arc User
    Hi all!

    This is my first post to any of these forums, although I have played for a while now.


    Feedback
    I have been play testing the changes to professions and I like them for the most part. I was a bit shocked at first due to how massive the changes are, but they're easy to learn, make good sense and are more fun to play than the old system... at least at first. Once the shiny newness wears off, it may get tedious. I had numerous concerns at first, but after reading these posts, I see that those are being handled and considered. The bugs I found have already been reported by others, so I won't repeat them. I think this system is by far superior! I like that the Artisans are getting commissions for their work. I felt a little like I was using slave labor in the old system. Piece rate is great! It provides incentives to hustle! Haha!

    Suggestion
    I would like to make a couple of suggestions for consideration or perhaps future development.

    1. When I cannot be in my real world shop I have a manager that takes care of the simple day-to-day tasks. Could simple things like collecting items produced and gathered, selling them for credit with the South Sea Trading Company or forwarding them to me be something my Retainer could do (for a fee of course, otherwise how's he/she gonna make a living? LOL!)? Then, I can set up gathering and production so I can go off adventuring without worrying about those details. That way things would run just fine without me until I wanted to change what's being produced. Maybe this doesn't fit into how the game is envisioned, but it is more like the real world I think and gives the retainer something to do other than stand around looking pretty and answer a few questions (which doesn't pay).

    2. If this were actually my shop in the real world, I'd set up a Worktable, Gatherers and a Delivery Box for each profession. That way I don't have a bunch of artisans and adventurers sitting around the shop drinking coffee and reading the paper (which drives me nuts!) just waiting for me to decide to utilize their skillset. That way they can actually make a living and (obviously) I can do even better!

    I realize the second one is probably WAY over the top, but... you never know until you ask, right? ;)
  • theycallmetomutheycallmetomu Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,861 Arc User



    People who benefit from a broken system lose out when the broken system is fixed or replaced by another system. That's perfectly normal. I get that the people who have leadership armies dislike that they're losing their leadership armies, and yeah, they invested in them. That's frustrating, and you could argue that any change in the professions system should give more heads up before changing so people have at least an X month lead where they know not to invest into maxing it.

    But that doesn't mean changing/removing the broken system isn't the best way forwards. It just means some people feeling like they got a raw deal is an unfortunate side effect of progress.

    How was leadership "broken"? I mean it was not some loophole from some very complex system, it was pretty strait forward and people ran it exactly the way it was built. People invested game time and some AD to buy purple assets. People used zen and bought more alt slots.

    And as I noted, if you migrated leadership into gathering, OK, it completely changes the whole flavor of the profession but oh well. But on top of that you just give away the level that you worked for to others for free for having some other profession at that level... I mean wow.

    Why not just set gathering at max level for your highest level like you are already doing then give people with leadership the equivalent level in any profession of their choice? That would at least seem to be the fairest migration. Say you raised both weaponsmithing and leadership, you would get weaponsmithing and gathering and another profession at that level while someone who only raised leadership would get gathering and a profession of their choice.

    Remember that the point of the game, for Cryptic, is to make profit and pissing people off is not exactly the way to do that.

    I can theorize as to why the dev team might consider the professions system as it currently exists broken or not, but if you want to know why they decided it was better to make it more complicated and time consuming to produce something out of nothing, you'd have to ask them.

    But the bottom line is, for whatever reason-I think the stated reasons are likely an incomplete picture-the dev team wants to change professions, and that includes leadership. I think that they're straying away from outright saying "creating character wealth-even if it's a transfer of wealth from one player to another-out of nothing without effort does not match our game model" but I think that's largely the case. For years, Neverwinter has had a model where something is created from nothing, and it's created weird incentives that affect how people play the game.

    I've said before, if you don't have a leadership army, you are essentially self-crippling yourself relative to the player base because so many people have leadership armies, because the return from them is pretty high. This is true even after the repeated rounds of nerfs.

    If you *want* to click on professions for hours each day managing your 20 toons, okay, but whatever system exists, it shouldn't be one that makes players feel *obligated* to do such a thing. A reminder: your enjoyment sometimes comes at the cost of others, and vice versa.

    HONESTLY, I wish Professions were removed from Neverwinter entirely, and Cryptic released a new web app game in the model of the old Gateway called "Merchants of the Sword Coast" where you'd have a professions management system as a mostly self-contained game. The kicker would be that players would still be able to purchase from these merchants, but your experience playing the profession game wouldn't be based on how many characters you have.

    Something like that. There's a lot of bugs that would need to be worked out. But that's just my take on things.

    The bottom line is, it is not a goal of the new system to ensure each player has parity of income from the new system they did from the old system and, indeed, it is likely the case that having the haves be closer to the have nots post change is not a bug, it is a feature.
  • draconislupusdraconislupus Member Posts: 205 Arc User
    @asterdahl Will there be tools that cost more than 5,000? The current epic level tools trade in for 5,000 and I thought you said that epic tools would not exchange for 1:1.
  • tkael#3958 tkael Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    As a relatively new player that's focused on leveling leadership to 20 through diligent effort over the the past few months, this change really does feel like a gut punch. I appreciate that this change is necessary, but that doesn't make it hurt any less.

    I'm far enough along that I've invested substantial time and resources into the profession, but not so far along that I've begun to reap the rewards associated with maxing it.

    I was looking forward to this professions update. Now I just want you to tell me I haven't wasted two months leveling a profession only to have it evaporate into nothing.
  • frozenfirevrfrozenfirevr Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,475 Community Moderator
    asterdahl said:

    Running a workshop bugged can't accept applicants and thus can't continue on with it also when after hiring the one person it put me into this screen thing that forced me to quit the game because the cutscene screen would not go away. This needs to be fixed as well.
    For a more detailed explanation
    When you go to the desk and sit down, you have four applicates you have to accept or deny but its saying must finish tutorial and won't allow you to accept or deny any of them.
    I didn't get a book that allowed you to access the former menu where you tasks are now on live. Which might be the problem this bug prevents you from getting it thus can't continue on with professions

    Thank you for the report, I apologize for the inconvenience this issue has caused. We are currently unaware of such an issue and have been unable to reproduce this internally. If anyone who has encountered similar issues can provide additional information, or if you are stuck permanently in this state can provide your character's name on the preview shard, that would be tremendously helpful.
    This seems to have fixed the issue. People just weren't paying enough attention to clicking inside the box.

    Make sure the retainer doesn't have any quests, then go to your room and interact with the desk, it give you pop-ups on where to click and stuff... Some of those pop-ups go away only after clicking on them.

    FrozenFire
  • silvergryphsilvergryph Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 737 Arc User
    One thing to note is that you will get currency for all you Leadership Assets that you can use to buy Assets for any other Profession. So, if all you had was Leadership, you will still get a little head start with another Profession. And Gathering should still be profitable by selling the materials because the Gathering and crafting tasks all get delivered to the finite space of the Delivery Box and people will need more materials than they can Gather if they are trying to level up their Workshop and/or other Professions.

    I actually won't be surprised if some players neglect leveling Gathering and just buy most of their Materials from other players.
  • flippy#8481 flippy Member Posts: 198 Arc User
    feedback First we need to find out what we can possibly purchase with the south seas trading vouchers

    second - SS traders should accept a +1 item to fulfill any standard order
    {yes I finally figured out how to force a +0 item production and the specialized equipment needed for that will slam profession inventory with junk}

    third - the specialized MasterCraft II equipment should have a direct and valid use in the new crafting scheme after all it was a real hamster to get in the first place ; the MC I items should also have some use or transferal into the new system too
  • seveninchbladeseveninchblade Member Posts: 75 Arc User

    First we need to find out what we can possibly purchase with the south seas trading vouchers

    This was already answered, it is solely for workshop upgrades.
    Charisma was my dump stat.
  • valwrynvalwryn Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,620 Arc User

    @asterdahl Will there be tools that cost more than 5,000? The current epic level tools trade in for 5,000 and I thought you said that epic tools would not exchange for 1:1.

    Level 70 recipes, mostly Blacksmith, you can make the +1 versions of those 5,000 credit assets. They're slightly better. At this point, if your profession level and artisan are at level 65 with one of these +1 tools, you have about a 92% proficiency. I don't see a need for a more epicker (it's a word) tool. =)
  • mynaammynaam Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 916 Arc User
    Can't seem to find Astral diamond crates for a replacement same for other SH donation items . Have they been remove do we now have to donate real AD to level Stronghold?
    There are more than BIS players in this game
    It has been 5 YEARS since last new class this is getting ridiculous
    FORCING the majority of your player base to play 4 mod old dungeons and trial will have a bad result on player base
    Please do master/normal version of dungeons. This way content for all MOD 19 have nothing new for vast majority of player base. Giving an EVENT is not same thing as permanent content for non BIS. As we suggested in CDP
    Changes are getting so bad i would rather prefer no new changes (RIP ICE FISHING in winter fest)



  • draconislupusdraconislupus Member Posts: 205 Arc User
    mynaam said:

    Can't seem to find Astral diamond crates for a replacement same for other SH donation items . Have they been remove do we now have to donate real AD to level Stronghold?

    Those are coming in an update.
  • draconislupusdraconislupus Member Posts: 205 Arc User
    Fact is this game originally had multiple ways to play it and advance but they were not balanced. Balancing all the various ways has become an impossible task in the game's current form. And the current development team thinks that their way to play it is the right way and are now making it a point to make all the other ways none viable. Otherwise you would be able to be a crafter and play only the current content long enough to unlock the campaign before going back to crafting and selling. Or you would still be able to gain AD in other ways than just the few ways that they want you to. Many times during the last several changes they have said that all the ways to survive in this game will be play based thus doing away with the other play styles.
  • ladypeanut66ladypeanut66 Member Posts: 78 Arc User

    Fact is this game originally had multiple ways to play it and advance but they were not balanced. Balancing all the various ways has become an impossible task in the game's current form. And the current development team thinks that their way to play it is the right way and are now making it a point to make all the other ways none viable. Otherwise you would be able to be a crafter and play only the current content long enough to unlock the campaign before going back to crafting and selling. Or you would still be able to gain AD in other ways than just the few ways that they want you to. Many times during the last several changes they have said that all the ways to survive in this game will be play based thus doing away with the other play styles.

    Seeing as people are not very happy about certain class rebalances and stuff, I would like to know how the devs play the game - while leveling, while gearing up and while on endgame XD

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