theycallmetomuMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,861Arc User
edited September 2018
I just ask because all of the guides online suggested SS was the DPS path, and MoF Renegade dipped into Oppressor was the best support for CW, prior to Mod 15.
Now with the Chilling Presence change, the +crit % when chilling presence is slotted feat isn't exactly useful, so feels like Renegade is Renegone outside of support builds.
(Though, non-support Wizard for serious group content is apparently pretty lackluster at this point anyway so eh)
Maybe i missed the info, or someone has already asked, but...
Has anyone noticed if combat advantage is working on preview?
Usually when you do damage without crit you should see an arrow near the damage done, i can't see any even if nightmare wizardry proc, is just a graphical bug? Or CA is not working atm? Because if is not working how can we test the real potential of the renegade tree?
Maybe i missed the info, or someone has already asked, but...
Has anyone noticed if combat advantage is working on preview?
Usually when you do damage without crit you should see an arrow near the damage done, i can't see any even if nightmare wizardry proc, is just a graphical bug? Or CA is not working atm? Because if is not working how can we test the real potential of the renegade tree?
probably not working on previev for now.
0
frozenfirevrMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,475Community Moderator
Maybe i missed the info, or someone has already asked, but...
Has anyone noticed if combat advantage is working on preview?
Usually when you do damage without crit you should see an arrow near the damage done, i can't see any even if nightmare wizardry proc, is just a graphical bug? Or CA is not working atm? Because if is not working how can we test the real potential of the renegade tree?
Maybe i missed the info, or someone has already asked, but...
Has anyone noticed if combat advantage is working on preview?
Usually when you do damage without crit you should see an arrow near the damage done, i can't see any even if nightmare wizardry proc, is just a graphical bug? Or CA is not working atm? Because if is not working how can we test the real potential of the renegade tree?
Ithis works just does not do damage from CA.
CW Fit - Phantasmal Destruction. Gives a bonus 25% critical severities in tooltip and dealt damage increase. Hmmm something wrong. Because the fit works only if there is a CA hit with a 40% chance
Considering Cryptics/PW terrible record of both ignoring feedback and balancing things out, it took a considerable amount of thought to decide whether it'd be worth it to post a feedback, after testing things a bit in preview. Having said that here it is : 1) Being an oppressor I've noticed a good amount of dps drop due to the changes in chilling presence and shatter strike. 2) Chilling presence didn't have to be nerfed but instead you could buff or alter the other class features ,to be more useful and desirable in game play. 3) Shatterstrike is heavily impacted by the loss of the 5% max hit points damage multiplier and the 250% weapon damage simply can't compensate for that loss. Also frostbite,by removing all chill stacks, works against other feats in the oppressor tree,such as cold infusion-alacrity and feats such as chilling presence. Increasing the duration of chill stacks has zero impact because ,for oppressors, it wasn't a problem keeping up chill, to begin with. Instead of that i'd like to see Shatterstrike causing a small reduction in the time enemies are immune to chill stacking. 4) Arcane mastery stacks being applied only by arcane spells further limits and hinders a class that's dps starved when compared to other classes. Lets be real, control just isn't a thing in this game,at least not in endgame content, and damage is still king. So unless that changes,reducing the dps by giving more control is pointless. 5) Imprisonment is the least useful power and personally have never used it nor will i, in the foreseeable future, despite the changes done to it. Instead of encumbering the CW tree it'd be nice if some of the more interesting spells, such as cloudkill, that can be found in DnD, were adopted. That would give the class a much needed diversity and open new possible combos for utilising our powers. 6) All in all i'm not particularly thrilled with these changes and i can safely say that they will not address some of the more fundamental problems plaguing the CW class.
@thefabricant I did a lot more testing on the AoE setup for mod 15. I tried yours but i had the best results when i swapped Evocation for CP (with its artifact bonus). Otherwise, everything was the same (CoI on tab, ST, Disintegrate, IT, OF, SS, CP, same feat allocation than your boss loadout but without Focused Wizardry). It's actually ~7% more dps so considering chill stacks really fast with CoI and IT, it can be worth it.
All of this was on dummies so i'll test this in dungeon when servers will finally let us time to play
@thefabricant I did a lot more testing on the AoE setup for mod 15. I tried yours but i had the best results when i swapped Evocation for CP (with its artifact bonus). Otherwise, everything was the same (CoI on tab, ST, Disintegrate, IT, OF, SS, CP, same feat allocation than your boss loadout but without Focused Wizardry). It's actually ~7% more dps so considering chill stacks really fast with CoI and IT, it can be worth it.
All of this was on dummies so i'll test this in dungeon when servers will finally let us time to play
But you are renegade and not Thaum...Renegade is a buff path and not DPS path. That is a big issue for many CW. We went from Thaum in mod 12/12b to Opp in mod 13 & 14 and come mod 15 it will be Renegade....
Does anyone see that the CW DPS build is just jumping between Paragon feat path. That is not how CW should be built given we have 3 clear paragon feat paths...
Oppressor - should be a hybrid DPS/buffer with a split focus between both and it currently does this really nicely. Thaum - should be the highest DPS class and since mod 12/12b it has not performed well at all Renegade - should be a pure buff path and has been for quite a while but now will become the DPS focus because Thaum is still garbage
Please do some minor rework to Thaum Capstone and Oppressor capstone so that CW can be pure Buffers, DPS and Hybrid.
Like I said in another post, the new feat in the Renegade path should be moved to the Thaum path to provide Thaum builds more damage, it makes sense.
Far Spell: Removed and replaced with "Power Surge"
Power Surge (New): Encounter powers have a 25% chance, and Daily powers have a 100% chance, to grant you Power Surge for 4 seconds. Power Surge increases the damage of your At-will powers by 20/40/60/80/100%
Replace it to increases the damage of all our dailies and adjust the damage and the up-time to be balanced for an increase in damage for dailies. The % damage of our total DPS from our Dailies is a lot bigger than our at-will.
Transcended Master: Replace Shard of Endless Avalanche by Disintegrate, we need more single target damage. This feat could be good for Single target load-out.
Snap Freeze: your cold based at-will and encounter powers deal an additional 2/4/6/8/10% damage to targets who are not affected by chill "edit: the damage bonus only work for your first hit with a cold power because usually the rest of the fight all your targets have a stack of chill, it's why nobody use it." Replace by : your arcane based at-will and encounter powers deal an additional 2/4/6/8/10% damage to targets who are affected by chill.
Destructive Wizardry: apply the damage increase with a 50% charged Storm Pillar
Assailing Force : The target cap need to be reworked it's too weak for a DPS path capstone. If it's too much work at least allow it to critic and benefit from debuff.
Oppressor Feats: Chilling control : Sudden Storm now applies 1/2/3/4/5 stacks of chill to target hit by the primary strike. Replace by :The Damage of Sudden Storm is increased by 1/2/3/4/5% when you hit a target affected by chill. Renegade Feats:Phantasmal Destruction: Critical Severity increased to 5/10/15/20/25% (up from 3/6/9/12/15%) Renegade doesn't offer enough compared to other support, share the critical severity with the allies. If it's too much it could be a % of the total value.
Thanks
Post edited by gildriador on
“He raised his staff. There was a roll of thunder. The sunlight was blotted out from the eastern windows; the whole hall became suddenly dark as night. The fire faded to sullen embers. Only Gandalf could be seen, standing white and tall before the blackened hearth.” ― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Two Towers
I still don't understand the apparent consensus in this thread that Thaum isn't useful. Can someone explain that to me? I switched out of Renegade to Thaum because my experience at the time showed it was actually mode damage! Then again, that was before I got a Razorwood.
Don't get me wrong, Thaum is not useless. I primarily run around doing my solo chores playing SS Thaum because I love the play style. It does sufficient damage to run through your dailies or do whatever you need to do on your own, but I also have invested more into the gear to squeeze as much damage out of the path say compared to my 16K GWF. I don't want to derail things into a comparison of classes, that has no place here, I'm just pointing out that in my opinion it requires more resources, be it time, AD or $ to have my SS perform at what I deem a decent level so that I feel "powerful".
The reality is that in higher level instances / heroics, even though I can get away with SS Thaum for the trash mobs, I am not doing my team or the group any favors by clinging to it for bosses. I swap to either MoF Rene if there is a desire that I play that, or if the group needs help with dps I switch to MoF Oppressor.
I'm ok with that, but I guess I am a little perplexed about why the Thaum path and SS in particular has been shunned so harshly by the devs. I can't help but wonder if there is a movement internally to push play away from powers that have been perceived as problematic rather than to fix or adjust them. I actually think the current Oppressor capstone would be nice to have on the Thaum path since they are reworking it, or something along the lines of what Sharp has suggested. I know these balance passes are few and far between. I would just like to see all 3 paths (and yes selfishly the path I enjoy) be taken care of while we have the devs ear.
Whenever the CW is fixed and a bug is removed from the class it takes a damage loss. Rarely do we see adjustment for added damage back into the class to get it back to where it was, so the CW is a bit behind with each mod when a bug is fixed.
This update has potential to allows us to use a variety of personals but with Chilling Presence still providing a 24% increase to our damage, we will continue to use that as one of our primary personals. I rather see Chilling Presence dropped down to 12% and our powers get another 15% increase in damage. This way, we have even more personals to use other than Chilling Presence.
Than I would like to see the Thaum Cap Stone do a bit more for us damage wise, something similar to what Sharp listed.
I also would like the Oppressor to go back to the one we currently have in mod 13/14 as I like how it operates, maybe a slight decrease in the damage bonus but not a big drop.
The good news is the CW is finally getting some attention. The bad news is that the renegade buff path is currently the best path for us. Some additional work is needed in the Thaum path and the Oppressor may need some additional tweaking.
Guess we're back to renegade builds for support then?
Will chaos magic proc from DoTs?
If you were running anything else in groups then you were a liability.
If you were running renegade in premades in mod 14 then you were a liability. The only time renegade made sense in m14 is when there is literally no other way to gain combat advantage.
@thefabricant I did a lot more testing on the AoE setup for mod 15. I tried yours but i had the best results when i swapped Evocation for CP (with its artifact bonus). Otherwise, everything was the same (CoI on tab, ST, Disintegrate, IT, OF, SS, CP, same feat allocation than your boss loadout but without Focused Wizardry). It's actually ~7% more dps so considering chill stacks really fast with CoI and IT, it can be worth it.
All of this was on dummies so i'll test this in dungeon when servers will finally let us time to play
@tenetomb I tried a CP setup, but in the groups I run in I generally use Steal Time on mastery as monsters don't live longer then 2 power casts and running faster makes a bigger difference overall to clearspeed. Due to this, I found that Storm Spell did more damage. Maybe in slower groups, CP makes more sense.
@thefabricant Good to see you arrived to the same conclusion I had ! Dps is pretty nice and goes crazy on execute phase.
Only thing I changed is 2/3 in Blighting power and 3/3 in Arcane Enhancement.
And, as you said, I didn't bother with Nightmare.
However on aoe, I have still not find a gameplay that convince me.
Everything I tried seems underwhelwing atm. Needs more testing !
@tenetomb for trash I run SS Rene with a similar feat distribution (but no focused wizardry) and then storm spell + evocation as class features. CoI or Steal Time on mastery (depending on group), disintegrate, Icy Terrain.
AOE - storm spell + evocation Single target - Chilling Presence + Arcane Power Field
Off-hand Artifact Class Feature - ? May be Chilling Presence 3% because it's more important increase all damage to kill the boss faster? there is exactly 3% after the nerf Chilling Presence?
I'd have to agree with some others here that I'd prefer to see all 3 paths provide distinct functionality (and viability). I really can't understand why there is an apparent bias against the Thaum path. Most SS mage's were playing it once upon a time because it is a FUN damage path. I have many options as loadouts, that include MoF / SS Opp, Thaum, Rene but of course I am biased towards which I enjoy the most. That changes over time from variant to variant, but that is the hook, I would like to be able to change things up and experiment in different situations with different builds without gimping my toon and consequently the team. I'm sure that is the goal of the devs for all the classes, at least I hope it is.
Please revisit Assailing Force and give some consideration to the feedback that has been provided. The capstone should be something worth putting points in Thaum beyond spell twisting imho (if even for that come mod 15).
I still don't understand the apparent consensus in this thread that Thaum isn't useful. Can someone explain that to me? I switched out of Renegade to Thaum because my experience at the time showed it was actually mode damage! Then again, that was before I got a Razorwood.
Thaum. is for Solo play, it provides more Damage than other paths and makes up for the lower damage a CW should have by default.
Renegade is for group play, to provide buffs/debuffs and with the right build, a Zero CD Encounter spewing machine.
Guess we're back to renegade builds for support then?
Will chaos magic proc from DoTs?
If you were running anything else in groups then you were a liability.
If you were running renegade in premades in mod 14 then you were a liability. The only time renegade made sense in m14 is when there is literally no other way to gain combat advantage.
If all you were using it for was CA you aren't using it correctly. That's like saying the only reason to include a GWF in a party is because it can run.
Any DPS class will do a better job over a CW at DPS, and I don't say "other" DPS class because like it or not, that isn't what you're there exclusively to do. If you're not maximizing your ability to provide supporting benefits as a Renegade, zero CD build does and will do considerably better with these changes, then you are replaceable.
Of course if you're a premade and most of you are 2k+ higher than the min iLvL for the content you're running, it doesn't matter what you do. You're a joke that gets exponentially funnier the more overgeared you get.
0
theycallmetomuMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,861Arc User
I'd have to agree with some others here that I'd prefer to see all 3 paths provide distinct functionality (and viability). I really can't understand why there is an apparent bias against the Thaum path. Most SS mage's were playing it once upon a time because it is a FUN damage path. I have many options as loadouts, that include MoF / SS Opp, Thaum, Rene but of course I am biased towards which I enjoy the most. That changes over time from variant to variant, but that is the hook, I would like to be able to change things up and experiment in different situations with different builds without gimping my toon and consequently the team. I'm sure that is the goal of the devs for all the classes, at least I hope it is.
Please revisit Assailing Force and give some consideration to the feedback that has been provided. The capstone should be something worth putting points in Thaum beyond spell twisting imho (if even for that come mod 15).
I still don't understand the apparent consensus in this thread that Thaum isn't useful. Can someone explain that to me? I switched out of Renegade to Thaum because my experience at the time showed it was actually mode damage! Then again, that was before I got a Razorwood.
Thaum. is for Solo play, it provides more Damage than other paths and makes up for the lower damage a CW should have by default.
Renegade is for group play, to provide buffs/debuffs and with the right build, a Zero CD Encounter spewing machine.
Oh okay, I never use my DPS build in "serious" content anyway (anything more advanced than Intermediate queue). So it sounds like my priors were in the right spot after all.
0
thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
I'd have to agree with some others here that I'd prefer to see all 3 paths provide distinct functionality (and viability). I really can't understand why there is an apparent bias against the Thaum path. Most SS mage's were playing it once upon a time because it is a FUN damage path. I have many options as loadouts, that include MoF / SS Opp, Thaum, Rene but of course I am biased towards which I enjoy the most. That changes over time from variant to variant, but that is the hook, I would like to be able to change things up and experiment in different situations with different builds without gimping my toon and consequently the team. I'm sure that is the goal of the devs for all the classes, at least I hope it is.
Please revisit Assailing Force and give some consideration to the feedback that has been provided. The capstone should be something worth putting points in Thaum beyond spell twisting imho (if even for that come mod 15).
I still don't understand the apparent consensus in this thread that Thaum isn't useful. Can someone explain that to me? I switched out of Renegade to Thaum because my experience at the time showed it was actually mode damage! Then again, that was before I got a Razorwood.
Thaum. is for Solo play, it provides more Damage than other paths and makes up for the lower damage a CW should have by default.
Renegade is for group play, to provide buffs/debuffs and with the right build, a Zero CD Encounter spewing machine.
Renegade has the clear advantage for solo play, it gives reliable combat advantage which is a much bigger buff then any of the other paths will give you. Thaum is as dead as the dodos.
Guess we're back to renegade builds for support then?
Will chaos magic proc from DoTs?
If you were running anything else in groups then you were a liability.
If you were running renegade in premades in mod 14 then you were a liability. The only time renegade made sense in m14 is when there is literally no other way to gain combat advantage.
If all you were using it for was CA you aren't using it correctly. That's like saying the only reason to include a GWF in a party is because it can run.
Any DPS class will do a better job over a CW at DPS, and I don't say "other" DPS class because like it or not, that isn't what you're there exclusively to do. If you're not maximizing your ability to provide supporting benefits as a Renegade, zero CD build does and will do considerably better with these changes, then you are replaceable.
Of course if you're a premade and most of you are 2k+ higher than the min iLvL for the content you're running, it doesn't matter what you do. You're a joke that gets exponentially funnier the more overgeared you get.
Oppressor, currently on live, provides better, more reliable buffs then renegade and does more dps provided there is somebody else providing CA. The crit buff and chaotic growth are useless and a 10% buff that can be procced 100% of the time is stronger then a 30% buff which is only up some of the time
Guess we're back to renegade builds for support then?
Will chaos magic proc from DoTs?
If you were running anything else in groups then you were a liability.
If you were running renegade in premades in mod 14 then you were a liability. The only time renegade made sense in m14 is when there is literally no other way to gain combat advantage.
If you're not maximizing your ability to provide supporting benefits as a Renegade
Mind telling me what all 'supporting benefits' you currently providing as a Renegade?
0
theycallmetomuMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,861Arc User
Guess we're back to renegade builds for support then?
Will chaos magic proc from DoTs?
If you were running anything else in groups then you were a liability.
If you were running renegade in premades in mod 14 then you were a liability. The only time renegade made sense in m14 is when there is literally no other way to gain combat advantage.
If you're not maximizing your ability to provide supporting benefits as a Renegade
Mind telling me what all 'supporting benefits' you currently providing as a Renegade?
... virtually the entire feat tree is support stuff.
Though, the +crit% chance stuff is pretty useless once everyone and their mom has maxed their crit chance on their own.
I'm witnessing the one reason I currently have a MoF Rene loadout...even in our own thread. -_- Sometime it's just easier to switch loadouts and let people eat what they ask for... but I find current Rene is a bit of a lotto compared to Oppressor and the Oppressor can do decent damage while providing the same passive buffs and nice instance wide support through feats. Shame it is changing, I quite like it.
The elephant in the room has been called out, though I think we all have known it. "Thaum is dead as dodos'" I hope that the balancing team takes note of that and there is time to revisit that part of the final build. My fear though is that the TR and DC threads are burning so hotly that we will not get much more than we currently see.
3
frozenfirevrMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,475Community Moderator
Guess we're back to renegade builds for support then?
Will chaos magic proc from DoTs?
If you were running anything else in groups then you were a liability.
If you were running renegade in premades in mod 14 then you were a liability. The only time renegade made sense in m14 is when there is literally no other way to gain combat advantage.
If you're not maximizing your ability to provide supporting benefits as a Renegade
Mind telling me what all 'supporting benefits' you currently providing as a Renegade?
... virtually the entire feat tree is support stuff.
That's what you'd feel, but when you actually look at it, there's nothing of much use (for an endgame group) except an unreliable Chaotic Fury and maybe, to a minor extent, Abyss of Chaos.
I'd have to agree with some others here that I'd prefer to see all 3 paths provide distinct functionality (and viability). I really can't understand why there is an apparent bias against the Thaum path. Most SS mage's were playing it once upon a time because it is a FUN damage path. I have many options as loadouts, that include MoF / SS Opp, Thaum, Rene but of course I am biased towards which I enjoy the most. That changes over time from variant to variant, but that is the hook, I would like to be able to change things up and experiment in different situations with different builds without gimping my toon and consequently the team. I'm sure that is the goal of the devs for all the classes, at least I hope it is.
Please revisit Assailing Force and give some consideration to the feedback that has been provided. The capstone should be something worth putting points in Thaum beyond spell twisting imho (if even for that come mod 15).
I still don't understand the apparent consensus in this thread that Thaum isn't useful. Can someone explain that to me? I switched out of Renegade to Thaum because my experience at the time showed it was actually mode damage! Then again, that was before I got a Razorwood.
Thaum. is for Solo play, it provides more Damage than other paths and makes up for the lower damage a CW should have by default.
Renegade is for group play, to provide buffs/debuffs and with the right build, a Zero CD Encounter spewing machine.
Renegade has the clear advantage for solo play, it gives reliable combat advantage which is a much bigger buff then any of the other paths will give you. Thaum is as dead as the dodos.
Guess we're back to renegade builds for support then?
Will chaos magic proc from DoTs?
If you were running anything else in groups then you were a liability.
If you were running renegade in premades in mod 14 then you were a liability. The only time renegade made sense in m14 is when there is literally no other way to gain combat advantage.
If all you were using it for was CA you aren't using it correctly. That's like saying the only reason to include a GWF in a party is because it can run.
Any DPS class will do a better job over a CW at DPS, and I don't say "other" DPS class because like it or not, that isn't what you're there exclusively to do. If you're not maximizing your ability to provide supporting benefits as a Renegade, zero CD build does and will do considerably better with these changes, then you are replaceable.
Of course if you're a premade and most of you are 2k+ higher than the min iLvL for the content you're running, it doesn't matter what you do. You're a joke that gets exponentially funnier the more overgeared you get.
Oppressor, currently on live, provides better, more reliable buffs then renegade and does more dps provided there is nobody else providing CA. The crit buff and chaotic growth are useless and a 10% buff that can be procced 100% of the time is stronger then a 30% buff which is only up some of the time
If you acutally look at the data from runs of uptime of Chaotic Fury, you would find out that uptimes of each buff are not the same. Fury had in many cases uptime comparable to Nexus and Growth combined (who knows why). Fury is much better than oppressor buff.
Aris Meyde CW MoF Renegade
[PS4] Alliance - House Stargaryen
1
frozenfirevrMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,475Community Moderator
I'd have to agree with some others here that I'd prefer to see all 3 paths provide distinct functionality (and viability). I really can't understand why there is an apparent bias against the Thaum path. Most SS mage's were playing it once upon a time because it is a FUN damage path. I have many options as loadouts, that include MoF / SS Opp, Thaum, Rene but of course I am biased towards which I enjoy the most. That changes over time from variant to variant, but that is the hook, I would like to be able to change things up and experiment in different situations with different builds without gimping my toon and consequently the team. I'm sure that is the goal of the devs for all the classes, at least I hope it is.
Please revisit Assailing Force and give some consideration to the feedback that has been provided. The capstone should be something worth putting points in Thaum beyond spell twisting imho (if even for that come mod 15).
I still don't understand the apparent consensus in this thread that Thaum isn't useful. Can someone explain that to me? I switched out of Renegade to Thaum because my experience at the time showed it was actually mode damage! Then again, that was before I got a Razorwood.
Thaum. is for Solo play, it provides more Damage than other paths and makes up for the lower damage a CW should have by default.
Renegade is for group play, to provide buffs/debuffs and with the right build, a Zero CD Encounter spewing machine.
Renegade has the clear advantage for solo play, it gives reliable combat advantage which is a much bigger buff then any of the other paths will give you. Thaum is as dead as the dodos.
Guess we're back to renegade builds for support then?
Will chaos magic proc from DoTs?
If you were running anything else in groups then you were a liability.
If you were running renegade in premades in mod 14 then you were a liability. The only time renegade made sense in m14 is when there is literally no other way to gain combat advantage.
If all you were using it for was CA you aren't using it correctly. That's like saying the only reason to include a GWF in a party is because it can run.
Any DPS class will do a better job over a CW at DPS, and I don't say "other" DPS class because like it or not, that isn't what you're there exclusively to do. If you're not maximizing your ability to provide supporting benefits as a Renegade, zero CD build does and will do considerably better with these changes, then you are replaceable.
Of course if you're a premade and most of you are 2k+ higher than the min iLvL for the content you're running, it doesn't matter what you do. You're a joke that gets exponentially funnier the more overgeared you get.
Oppressor, currently on live, provides better, more reliable buffs then renegade and does more dps provided there is nobody else providing CA. The crit buff and chaotic growth are useless and a 10% buff that can be procced 100% of the time is stronger then a 30% buff which is only up some of the time
If you acutally look at the data from runs of uptime of Chaotic Fury, you would find out that uptimes of each buff are not the same. Fury had in many cases uptime comparable to Nexus and Growth combined (who knows why). Fury is much better than oppressor buff.
Even if it has 50% uptime as you state, it still doesn't directly mean it's better. You see, 50% uptime for a 30% buff doesn't equate to 15% increase. A constant buff even if smaller is worth more. Even boss fights are, often times, quite short and a randomized buff might never even proc in that duration.
1
theycallmetomuMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,861Arc User
I'd have to agree with some others here that I'd prefer to see all 3 paths provide distinct functionality (and viability). I really can't understand why there is an apparent bias against the Thaum path. Most SS mage's were playing it once upon a time because it is a FUN damage path. I have many options as loadouts, that include MoF / SS Opp, Thaum, Rene but of course I am biased towards which I enjoy the most. That changes over time from variant to variant, but that is the hook, I would like to be able to change things up and experiment in different situations with different builds without gimping my toon and consequently the team. I'm sure that is the goal of the devs for all the classes, at least I hope it is.
Please revisit Assailing Force and give some consideration to the feedback that has been provided. The capstone should be something worth putting points in Thaum beyond spell twisting imho (if even for that come mod 15).
I still don't understand the apparent consensus in this thread that Thaum isn't useful. Can someone explain that to me? I switched out of Renegade to Thaum because my experience at the time showed it was actually mode damage! Then again, that was before I got a Razorwood.
Thaum. is for Solo play, it provides more Damage than other paths and makes up for the lower damage a CW should have by default.
Renegade is for group play, to provide buffs/debuffs and with the right build, a Zero CD Encounter spewing machine.
Renegade has the clear advantage for solo play, it gives reliable combat advantage which is a much bigger buff then any of the other paths will give you. Thaum is as dead as the dodos.
Guess we're back to renegade builds for support then?
Will chaos magic proc from DoTs?
If you were running anything else in groups then you were a liability.
If you were running renegade in premades in mod 14 then you were a liability. The only time renegade made sense in m14 is when there is literally no other way to gain combat advantage.
If all you were using it for was CA you aren't using it correctly. That's like saying the only reason to include a GWF in a party is because it can run.
Any DPS class will do a better job over a CW at DPS, and I don't say "other" DPS class because like it or not, that isn't what you're there exclusively to do. If you're not maximizing your ability to provide supporting benefits as a Renegade, zero CD build does and will do considerably better with these changes, then you are replaceable.
Of course if you're a premade and most of you are 2k+ higher than the min iLvL for the content you're running, it doesn't matter what you do. You're a joke that gets exponentially funnier the more overgeared you get.
Oppressor, currently on live, provides better, more reliable buffs then renegade and does more dps provided there is nobody else providing CA. The crit buff and chaotic growth are useless and a 10% buff that can be procced 100% of the time is stronger then a 30% buff which is only up some of the time
If you acutally look at the data from runs of uptime of Chaotic Fury, you would find out that uptimes of each buff are not the same. Fury had in many cases uptime comparable to Nexus and Growth combined (who knows why). Fury is much better than oppressor buff.
Even if it has 50% uptime as you state, it still doesn't directly mean it's better. You see, 50% uptime for a 30% buff doesn't equate to 15% increase. A constant buff even if smaller is worth more. Even boss fights are, often times, quite short and a randomized buff might never even proc in that duration.
The sad thing is, the opposite "should" be true. Like, a buff that's pretty huge but only active 10% of the time, if players were able to coordinate with it, would buff their biggest attacks rather than their smallest. But I suspect that Neverwinter doesn't really have that kind of dynamic-the "hold dailies for X" type of thing.
HR buffers > CW Renegade or Oppressor Templock > CW Renegade or Oppressor
Now given the changes to DO DC the CW Renegade path needs to be an alternative to a Templock or HR Buff build. In the current state CW is inferior and any groups looking for a buffer will take a Temp or a HR Buff build over a CW, because they provide better buffs.
Now onto the DPS side - CW DPS is dismal and not worth investing into as a pure DPS due to a really bad inferior capstone.
As for the oppressor build, the it is still viable but the changes to the capstone hinders this build and should have been left alone.
For the Renegade here are my thoughts on how to fix the Capstone...
Chaotic Fury - Buff proc off a critical hit Chaotic Growth - Buff proc when daily is use Chaotic Nexus - Buff proc off encounter use Chaotic Discipline - Buff proc off at will use Chaotic Fortitude - Buff proc off a cold base spell Chaotic Speed - Buff proc off a lighting or fire base attack
Looking at this list if you use Scorching Burst and land a critical hit you get Chaotic Fury, Chaotic Discipline and Chaotic Speed.
This is a nice change of pace and ensure an easier up time of Chaotic Fury and depending upon the attack use we can add in other buffs. I like this setup for Chaos Magic as it is better IMO than the current one.
I would also limit the buff to no more than 4 at a time.
Just a thought on how to improve the Renegade capstone.
2
frozenfirevrMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,475Community Moderator
I'd have to agree with some others here that I'd prefer to see all 3 paths provide distinct functionality (and viability). I really can't understand why there is an apparent bias against the Thaum path. Most SS mage's were playing it once upon a time because it is a FUN damage path. I have many options as loadouts, that include MoF / SS Opp, Thaum, Rene but of course I am biased towards which I enjoy the most. That changes over time from variant to variant, but that is the hook, I would like to be able to change things up and experiment in different situations with different builds without gimping my toon and consequently the team. I'm sure that is the goal of the devs for all the classes, at least I hope it is.
Please revisit Assailing Force and give some consideration to the feedback that has been provided. The capstone should be something worth putting points in Thaum beyond spell twisting imho (if even for that come mod 15).
I still don't understand the apparent consensus in this thread that Thaum isn't useful. Can someone explain that to me? I switched out of Renegade to Thaum because my experience at the time showed it was actually mode damage! Then again, that was before I got a Razorwood.
Thaum. is for Solo play, it provides more Damage than other paths and makes up for the lower damage a CW should have by default.
Renegade is for group play, to provide buffs/debuffs and with the right build, a Zero CD Encounter spewing machine.
Renegade has the clear advantage for solo play, it gives reliable combat advantage which is a much bigger buff then any of the other paths will give you. Thaum is as dead as the dodos.
Guess we're back to renegade builds for support then?
Will chaos magic proc from DoTs?
If you were running anything else in groups then you were a liability.
If you were running renegade in premades in mod 14 then you were a liability. The only time renegade made sense in m14 is when there is literally no other way to gain combat advantage.
If all you were using it for was CA you aren't using it correctly. That's like saying the only reason to include a GWF in a party is because it can run.
Any DPS class will do a better job over a CW at DPS, and I don't say "other" DPS class because like it or not, that isn't what you're there exclusively to do. If you're not maximizing your ability to provide supporting benefits as a Renegade, zero CD build does and will do considerably better with these changes, then you are replaceable.
Of course if you're a premade and most of you are 2k+ higher than the min iLvL for the content you're running, it doesn't matter what you do. You're a joke that gets exponentially funnier the more overgeared you get.
Oppressor, currently on live, provides better, more reliable buffs then renegade and does more dps provided there is nobody else providing CA. The crit buff and chaotic growth are useless and a 10% buff that can be procced 100% of the time is stronger then a 30% buff which is only up some of the time
If you acutally look at the data from runs of uptime of Chaotic Fury, you would find out that uptimes of each buff are not the same. Fury had in many cases uptime comparable to Nexus and Growth combined (who knows why). Fury is much better than oppressor buff.
Even if it has 50% uptime as you state, it still doesn't directly mean it's better. You see, 50% uptime for a 30% buff doesn't equate to 15% increase. A constant buff even if smaller is worth more. Even boss fights are, often times, quite short and a randomized buff might never even proc in that duration.
The sad thing is, the opposite "should" be true. Like, a buff that's pretty huge but only active 10% of the time, if players were able to coordinate with it, would buff their biggest attacks rather than their smallest. But I suspect that Neverwinter doesn't really have that kind of dynamic-the "hold dailies for X" type of thing.
That could be true if you could reliably cast the buff even if it has a bad uptime (like Soul Sight Crystal), but you can't, because it's random. You might end up holding your heavy hits for long periods to align everything and end up finishing the fight a lot slower.
0
thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
I'd have to agree with some others here that I'd prefer to see all 3 paths provide distinct functionality (and viability). I really can't understand why there is an apparent bias against the Thaum path. Most SS mage's were playing it once upon a time because it is a FUN damage path. I have many options as loadouts, that include MoF / SS Opp, Thaum, Rene but of course I am biased towards which I enjoy the most. That changes over time from variant to variant, but that is the hook, I would like to be able to change things up and experiment in different situations with different builds without gimping my toon and consequently the team. I'm sure that is the goal of the devs for all the classes, at least I hope it is.
Please revisit Assailing Force and give some consideration to the feedback that has been provided. The capstone should be something worth putting points in Thaum beyond spell twisting imho (if even for that come mod 15).
I still don't understand the apparent consensus in this thread that Thaum isn't useful. Can someone explain that to me? I switched out of Renegade to Thaum because my experience at the time showed it was actually mode damage! Then again, that was before I got a Razorwood.
Thaum. is for Solo play, it provides more Damage than other paths and makes up for the lower damage a CW should have by default.
Renegade is for group play, to provide buffs/debuffs and with the right build, a Zero CD Encounter spewing machine.
Renegade has the clear advantage for solo play, it gives reliable combat advantage which is a much bigger buff then any of the other paths will give you. Thaum is as dead as the dodos.
Guess we're back to renegade builds for support then?
Will chaos magic proc from DoTs?
If you were running anything else in groups then you were a liability.
If you were running renegade in premades in mod 14 then you were a liability. The only time renegade made sense in m14 is when there is literally no other way to gain combat advantage.
If all you were using it for was CA you aren't using it correctly. That's like saying the only reason to include a GWF in a party is because it can run.
Any DPS class will do a better job over a CW at DPS, and I don't say "other" DPS class because like it or not, that isn't what you're there exclusively to do. If you're not maximizing your ability to provide supporting benefits as a Renegade, zero CD build does and will do considerably better with these changes, then you are replaceable.
Of course if you're a premade and most of you are 2k+ higher than the min iLvL for the content you're running, it doesn't matter what you do. You're a joke that gets exponentially funnier the more overgeared you get.
Oppressor, currently on live, provides better, more reliable buffs then renegade and does more dps provided there is nobody else providing CA. The crit buff and chaotic growth are useless and a 10% buff that can be procced 100% of the time is stronger then a 30% buff which is only up some of the time
If you acutally look at the data from runs of uptime of Chaotic Fury, you would find out that uptimes of each buff are not the same. Fury had in many cases uptime comparable to Nexus and Growth combined (who knows why). Fury is much better than oppressor buff.
Actually, if you spend even 1 minute looking at logs you will realize chaotic fury creates multiple log entries when it procs, causing it to appear in the combat logs as if it has a proc rate greater than the others. In reality if you normalize to remove the "fake entries" you will find it procs just as much as the other buffs.
I'd have to agree with some others here that I'd prefer to see all 3 paths provide distinct functionality (and viability). I really can't understand why there is an apparent bias against the Thaum path. Most SS mage's were playing it once upon a time because it is a FUN damage path. I have many options as loadouts, that include MoF / SS Opp, Thaum, Rene but of course I am biased towards which I enjoy the most. That changes over time from variant to variant, but that is the hook, I would like to be able to change things up and experiment in different situations with different builds without gimping my toon and consequently the team. I'm sure that is the goal of the devs for all the classes, at least I hope it is.
Please revisit Assailing Force and give some consideration to the feedback that has been provided. The capstone should be something worth putting points in Thaum beyond spell twisting imho (if even for that come mod 15).
I still don't understand the apparent consensus in this thread that Thaum isn't useful. Can someone explain that to me? I switched out of Renegade to Thaum because my experience at the time showed it was actually mode damage! Then again, that was before I got a Razorwood.
Thaum. is for Solo play, it provides more Damage than other paths and makes up for the lower damage a CW should have by default.
Renegade is for group play, to provide buffs/debuffs and with the right build, a Zero CD Encounter spewing machine.
Renegade has the clear advantage for solo play, it gives reliable combat advantage which is a much bigger buff then any of the other paths will give you. Thaum is as dead as the dodos.
Guess we're back to renegade builds for support then?
Will chaos magic proc from DoTs?
If you were running anything else in groups then you were a liability.
If you were running renegade in premades in mod 14 then you were a liability. The only time renegade made sense in m14 is when there is literally no other way to gain combat advantage.
If all you were using it for was CA you aren't using it correctly. That's like saying the only reason to include a GWF in a party is because it can run.
Any DPS class will do a better job over a CW at DPS, and I don't say "other" DPS class because like it or not, that isn't what you're there exclusively to do. If you're not maximizing your ability to provide supporting benefits as a Renegade, zero CD build does and will do considerably better with these changes, then you are replaceable.
Of course if you're a premade and most of you are 2k+ higher than the min iLvL for the content you're running, it doesn't matter what you do. You're a joke that gets exponentially funnier the more overgeared you get.
Oppressor, currently on live, provides better, more reliable buffs then renegade and does more dps provided there is nobody else providing CA. The crit buff and chaotic growth are useless and a 10% buff that can be procced 100% of the time is stronger then a 30% buff which is only up some of the time
If you acutally look at the data from runs of uptime of Chaotic Fury, you would find out that uptimes of each buff are not the same. Fury had in many cases uptime comparable to Nexus and Growth combined (who knows why). Fury is much better than oppressor buff.
Actually, if you spend even 1 minute looking at logs you will realize chaotic fury creates multiple log entries when it procs, causing it to appear in the combat logs as if it has a proc rate greater than the others. In reality if you normalize to remove the "fake entries" you will find it procs just as much as the other buffs.
So how exactly does one distinguish between "fake" log entries and real ones then?
Disintegrate is out of control. I did some testing on puppets where the puppet is most of the time lower than 25% of its HP. This does not show the regular dungeon behavior I know but Disintegrate will be a must have for single target builds.
Please don't think that Disintegrate is OP and you are going to nerf it. The damage output of a CW is pretty decent I think. If you nerf Disintegrate you have to buff something else otherwise we are as weak as before the balance changes.
I do really like the changes do Disintegrate but sadly I would have wished for something different. An overall improvement of the class would be much more interesting than simply buff 1 spell this much. Making spells like Fanning the Flame, Ice Knife, Magic Missile or Ray of Enfeeblement stronger could have also been a way to make CWs more balanced compare to other classes (or maybe even buff the good old Shard that hasn't seen love since almost 10 modules?)
The only thing I really miss about these changes that where are CW is heading.
Like, it used to be: -Thaum: Damage -Oppr:Useless Control -Rene: Buff
It weren't perfect, but at least clear.
We got a few changes that skewed up everything and that was kind of okay, because it wasn't a CW rework and the results were at least calmingly good at the time.
But now I'm looking and analyzing these changes and the point seems completely lost. Rene is the amalganation of everything and Oppr is like a buffer.
I'm unsure if it needs to be reverted back into the old formula, but we should be having at least a grasp of which trees are supposed to do what to be able to "fix" them.
Disintegrate is out of control. I did some testing on puppets where the puppet is most of the time lower than 25% of its HP. This does not show the regular dungeon behavior I know but Disintegrate will be a must have for single target builds.
Please don't think that Disintegrate is OP and you are going to nerf it. The damage output of a CW is pretty decent I think. If you nerf Disintegrate you have to buff something else otherwise we are as weak as before the balance changes.
I do really like the changes do Disintegrate but sadly I would have wished for something different. An overall improvement of the class would be much more interesting than simply buff 1 spell this much. Making spells like Fanning the Flame, Ice Knife, Magic Missile or Ray of Enfeeblement stronger could have also been a way to make CWs more balanced compare to other classes (or maybe even buff the good old Shard that hasn't seen love since almost 10 modules?)
Testing something that deals 300% increased damage vs targets that are more or less constantly under the increased damage threshold is going to produce some very inaccurate results. In dungeons, where the damage output matters, disintegrate deals nowhere near the amount shown in the graph above. Disintegrate isn't out of control.
You are also using a Class Feature that is increase only Arcane Damage.
Comments
Now with the Chilling Presence change, the +crit % when chilling presence is slotted feat isn't exactly useful, so feels like Renegade is Renegone outside of support builds.
(Though, non-support Wizard for serious group content is apparently pretty lackluster at this point anyway so eh)
EDIT: Oh wait, that was removed anyway.
Has anyone noticed if combat advantage is working on preview?
Usually when you do damage without crit you should see an arrow near the damage done, i can't see any even if nightmare wizardry proc, is just a graphical bug? Or CA is not working atm? Because if is not working how can we test the real potential of the renegade tree?
CW Fit - Phantasmal Destruction. Gives a bonus 25% critical severities in tooltip and dealt damage increase.
Hmmm something wrong.
Because the fit works only if there is a CA hit with a 40% chance
I tried yours but i had the best results when i swapped Evocation for CP (with its artifact bonus).
Otherwise, everything was the same (CoI on tab, ST, Disintegrate, IT, OF, SS, CP, same feat allocation than your boss loadout but without Focused Wizardry).
It's actually ~7% more dps so considering chill stacks really fast with CoI and IT, it can be worth it.
All of this was on dummies so i'll test this in dungeon when servers will finally let us time to play
Does anyone see that the CW DPS build is just jumping between Paragon feat path. That is not how CW should be built given we have 3 clear paragon feat paths...
Oppressor - should be a hybrid DPS/buffer with a split focus between both and it currently does this really nicely.
Thaum - should be the highest DPS class and since mod 12/12b it has not performed well at all
Renegade - should be a pure buff path and has been for quite a while but now will become the DPS focus because Thaum is still garbage
Please do some minor rework to Thaum Capstone and Oppressor capstone so that CW can be pure Buffers, DPS and Hybrid.
Like I said in another post, the new feat in the Renegade path should be moved to the Thaum path to provide Thaum builds more damage, it makes sense.
Thaumaturge Feats:
Replace it to increases the damage of all our dailies and adjust the damage and the up-time to be balanced for an increase in damage for dailies. The % damage of our total DPS from our Dailies is a lot bigger than our at-will.
Transcended Master: Replace Shard of Endless Avalanche by Disintegrate, we need more single target damage. This feat could be good for Single target load-out.
Snap Freeze: your cold based at-will and encounter powers deal an additional 2/4/6/8/10% damage to targets who are not affected by chill
"edit: the damage bonus only work for your first hit with a cold power because usually the rest of the fight all your targets have a stack of chill, it's why nobody use it."
Replace by : your arcane based at-will and encounter powers deal an additional 2/4/6/8/10% damage to targets who are affected by chill.
Destructive Wizardry: apply the damage increase with a 50% charged Storm Pillar
Assailing Force : The target cap need to be reworked it's too weak for a DPS path capstone. If it's too much work at least allow it to critic and benefit from debuff.
Oppressor Feats:
Chilling control : Sudden Storm now applies 1/2/3/4/5 stacks of chill to target hit by the primary strike.
Replace by :The Damage of Sudden Storm is increased by 1/2/3/4/5% when you hit a target affected by chill.
Renegade Feats:Phantasmal Destruction: Critical Severity increased to 5/10/15/20/25% (up from 3/6/9/12/15%)
Renegade doesn't offer enough compared to other support, share the critical severity with the allies. If it's too much it could be a % of the total value.
Thanks
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Two Towers
This update has potential to allows us to use a variety of personals but with Chilling Presence still providing a 24% increase to our damage, we will continue to use that as one of our primary personals. I rather see Chilling Presence dropped down to 12% and our powers get another 15% increase in damage. This way, we have even more personals to use other than Chilling Presence.
Than I would like to see the Thaum Cap Stone do a bit more for us damage wise, something similar to what Sharp listed.
I also would like the Oppressor to go back to the one we currently have in mod 13/14 as I like how it operates, maybe a slight decrease in the damage bonus but not a big drop.
The good news is the CW is finally getting some attention. The bad news is that the renegade buff path is currently the best path for us. Some additional work is needed in the Thaum path and the Oppressor may need some additional tweaking.
Renegade is for group play, to provide buffs/debuffs and with the right build, a Zero CD Encounter spewing machine.
That's like saying the only reason to include a GWF in a party is because it can run.
Any DPS class will do a better job over a CW at DPS, and I don't say "other" DPS class because like it or not, that isn't what you're there exclusively to do. If you're not maximizing your ability to provide supporting benefits as a Renegade, zero CD build does and will do considerably better with these changes, then you are replaceable.
Of course if you're a premade and most of you are 2k+ higher than the min iLvL for the content you're running, it doesn't matter what you do. You're a joke that gets exponentially funnier the more overgeared you get.
Though, the +crit% chance stuff is pretty useless once everyone and their mom has maxed their crit chance on their own.
Sometime it's just easier to switch loadouts and let people eat what they ask for... but I find current Rene is a bit of a lotto compared to Oppressor and the Oppressor can do decent damage while providing the same passive buffs and nice instance wide support through feats. Shame it is changing, I quite like it.
The elephant in the room has been called out, though I think we all have known it. "Thaum is dead as dodos'" I hope that the balancing team takes note of that and there is time to revisit that part of the final build. My fear though is that the TR and DC threads are burning so hotly that we will not get much more than we currently see.
Fury is much better than oppressor buff.
[PS4] Alliance - House Stargaryen
HR buffers > CW Renegade or Oppressor
Templock > CW Renegade or Oppressor
Now given the changes to DO DC the CW Renegade path needs to be an alternative to a Templock or HR Buff build. In the current state CW is inferior and any groups looking for a buffer will take a Temp or a HR Buff build over a CW, because they provide better buffs.
Now onto the DPS side - CW DPS is dismal and not worth investing into as a pure DPS due to a really bad inferior capstone.
As for the oppressor build, the it is still viable but the changes to the capstone hinders this build and should have been left alone.
For the Renegade here are my thoughts on how to fix the Capstone...
Chaotic Fury - Buff proc off a critical hit
Chaotic Growth - Buff proc when daily is use
Chaotic Nexus - Buff proc off encounter use
Chaotic Discipline - Buff proc off at will use
Chaotic Fortitude - Buff proc off a cold base spell
Chaotic Speed - Buff proc off a lighting or fire base attack
Looking at this list if you use Scorching Burst and land a critical hit you get Chaotic Fury, Chaotic Discipline and Chaotic Speed.
This is a nice change of pace and ensure an easier up time of Chaotic Fury and depending upon the attack use we can add in other buffs. I like this setup for Chaos Magic as it is better IMO than the current one.
I would also limit the buff to no more than 4 at a time.
Just a thought on how to improve the Renegade capstone.
Disintegrate is out of control. I did some testing on puppets where the puppet is most of the time lower than 25% of its HP. This does not show the regular dungeon behavior I know but Disintegrate will be a must have for single target builds.
Please don't think that Disintegrate is OP and you are going to nerf it. The damage output of a CW is pretty decent I think. If you nerf Disintegrate you have to buff something else otherwise we are as weak as before the balance changes.
I do really like the changes do Disintegrate but sadly I would have wished for something different. An overall improvement of the class would be much more interesting than simply buff 1 spell this much.
Making spells like Fanning the Flame, Ice Knife, Magic Missile or Ray of Enfeeblement stronger could have also been a way to make CWs more balanced compare to other classes (or maybe even buff the good old Shard that hasn't seen love since almost 10 modules?)
Like, it used to be:
-Thaum: Damage
-Oppr:
UselessControl-Rene: Buff
It weren't perfect, but at least clear.
We got a few changes that skewed up everything and that was kind of okay, because it wasn't a CW rework and the results were at least calmingly good at the time.
But now I'm looking and analyzing these changes and the point seems completely lost. Rene is the amalganation of everything and Oppr is like a buffer.
I'm unsure if it needs to be reverted back into the old formula, but we should be having at least a grasp of which trees are supposed to do what to be able to "fix" them.
You are also using a Class Feature that is increase only Arcane Damage.