Control wizard major rework required.

soditallover · July 2018

Control wizard major rework required.

at this time the control wizard cannot fill the role it was created to do that being control, the development and management team on several occasions have stated that they cannot work control into the game in any appreciable capacity without ruining the game ie making dungeons and other content trivial.

If this is true and from changes to control powers over the years, this does tend to confirm this status. isn't it time to concede defeat and change control wizards to just wizards drop the control and focus on spell storm casters(high dps ), master of flame (buff /de-buff). the control wizard was intended to be the director of the campaign managing the hordes and suppression. however now your pushing the max you can just to hold a single minion for a few seconds.

rannxeroxx · August 2018

I said about the same thing last year in a post. Don't expect much from the devs about this.

hustin1 · August 2018

It's sad. My primary CW has an ungodly-high control bonus. I've calculated that when everything kicks in, it reaches 118%. This can lead to some bizarre effects against critters with low control resist (come with me to Yester Hill to see HE-strength Twig Blights learn to fly). I've had to get her a legendary flying carpet solely for the combat power since she can't use AS against normal critters (though AS is now quite effective in Heroic Encounters). She can keep Barovian werewolves in human form from ever changing to wolf form. Her Arcane Singularity even has enough of a gravity well to drag raptors away from beast cages in the Tyrant HE.

But she cannot get into a T3 dungeon group, even with 16.5k IL. It's not because her CC isn't useful -- it turns everything except boss fights into easy mode, but boss fights require so much DPS that the opportunity cost of including her instead of a pure-DPS build is just too great. Boss fights cannot be completed in time before a devastating mechanic of one form or another wipes the party.

I've been toying with a theory that with such a high control bonus she might be able to simply launch souls from Nsi's platform, but fat chance getting the opportunity to try it out. I digress, however.

She is also at a severe disadvantage in normal content -- the Wolf Den quest in Barovia is a good example. She's already squishy just being a CW, but when dealing with control-immune enemies she is nigh defenseless. It's even worse when outside and having to deal with two control-immune enemies at once. Its just not fair.

Don't even ask about the Night Terror. 16k IL and 178k HP mean nothing when you have no CC ability and your damage is gimped simply by virtue of being a controller. She can't last 10 seconds against it.

It would be nice if having high CC ability could stave off the aforementioned "devastating mechanic" that results in so many boss fights being "timed" fights. It also would be nice if control resist for critters wasn't an all-or-nothing deal. Controllers are utterly useless in boss fights as it stands. These aren't the days of the original Castle Never where you had insane waves of adds when fighting the dracolich.

mentinmindmaker · August 2018

In endgame content CW is pushed into a not-very-much-in-demand debuffer role.

I am not very happy about that.

kvet · August 2018

My main is also in a simliar situation. She can sometimes have two mobs entangled at once, she can do most barovian quests without even taking damage because everything is frozen before they get close. In merchant prince's folly... 20 mobs around and she's not taking damage. But in boss fights she sucks... wait... no she doesn't because I have a DPS loadout and a MoF debuffer loadout at the ready so I can adapt my CW to the party's needs.

Oh, and I should mention, other than Randoms, I don't do pug runs. My alliance doesn't allow IL requirements (if you can get into the dungeon, you can run it with alliance mates) and we don't point fingers or complain if the party isn't perfect or especially if someone is still learning. If you wipe, you wipe - try again. So... if anyone is feeling left out because random strangers are being mean to you, or even worse, because your own guild or alliance is being elitist, I guess it's time to shop around for a new guild.

caldochaud · August 2018

Actually, there is a way to get a CW to have more control and get a DPS increase... namely shift your focus on which active companions you have slotted,

-Paranoid Delusion - Summoned (Increased damage against rooted, disabled, held and prone targets by 3%)
-Manticore (5% chance to knockdown target on critical hit)
-Crab (10% chance to root target)
-Panther (Increased damage to prone targets by 5%/7.5%/10%)
-Slyblade Kobold (Increased damage against rooted or stunned targets by 3%/5%)

Also consider using Frost + Frostburn (or Loamweave) enchantments with the above mentioned companions active because the overall idea is to score increased chances of roots, knockdowns, slows etc. while gaining a damage bonus against targets at the same time.

Alternatively, consider slotting four Control-boosting Artifacts to get 4x600 and swap out the Panther, Kobold and Delusion for the Ioun Stone of Allure (summoned), Wisp and Cantankerous Mage.

vordayn · August 2018

caldochaud#4880 said:
Actually, there is a way to get a CW to have more control and get a DPS increase... namely shift your focus on which active companions you have slotted,

-Paranoid Delusion - Summoned (Increased damage against rooted, disabled, held and prone targets by 3%)
-Manticore (5% chance to knockdown target on critical hit)
-Crab (10% chance to root target)
-Panther (Increased damage to prone targets by 5%/7.5%/10%)
-Slyblade Kobold (Increased damage against rooted or stunned targets by 3%/5%)

Also consider using Frost + Frostburn (or Loamweave) enchantments with the above mentioned companions active because the overall idea is to score increased chances of roots, knockdowns, slows etc. while gaining a damage bonus against targets at the same time.

Doesn't that mean any class can have control powers, not just the CW?

strathkin · August 2018

vordayn said:

caldochaud#4880 said:
Actually, there is a way to get a CW to have more control and get a DPS increase... namely shift your focus on which active companions you have slotted,

-Paranoid Delusion - Summoned (Increased damage against rooted, disabled, held and prone targets by 3%)
-Manticore (5% chance to knockdown target on critical hit)
-Crab (10% chance to root target)
-Panther (Increased damage to prone targets by 5%/7.5%/10%)
-Slyblade Kobold (Increased damage against rooted or stunned targets by 3%/5%)

Also consider using Frost + Frostburn (or Loamweave) enchantments with the above mentioned companions active because the overall idea is to score increased chances of roots, knockdowns, slows etc. while gaining a damage bonus against targets at the same time.
Doesn't that mean any class can have control powers, not just the CW?

Well I admit the Panther is a very nice companion especially given the Great Weapon Fighter, Guardian Fighter, and several other classes have encounter powers that can actually knock a Player prone. Wizard does have Shard of Endless Avalanche to knock player's prone so if that's something you like consider a Panther. I have a Panther on every singe one of my player's who doesn't at least have a Chultan Tiger and I think they are great companions. I mean the last skin they have at (30) is absolutely amazing darker grey with black leopard spots rather than a panther. I just wished they updated the skin at 25 to use the Leopard spots in a slightly different color like this:

Still those companions above work better for some classes than others. Paranoid Delusion my Wizard always has as an active Companion as well.

Quick thought: It be nice if Class balance focused on changing individual powers less.
▪ Be nice to see most focused on buff/debuff in Class: Mechanic, TAB features, or Capstone exclusively.
╘ by add/subtracting small Control &/or Damage buff/debuff - class balance be within reach to BUFF some overall.
♠ Wizard (e.g.) is extend Arcane Mastery by 2 stacks &/or a +1% damage per Stack.
♠ Hunter (e.g.) is extend Grasping Roots Weak +4% dmg | Strong +7% dmg.

One other suggestion to perhaps encourage Diversity:
Sure don't limit Private Party's: Yet no more than 1 of each class, for each 5 player threshold.
▪ A Party of 05 comprised of any 8 classes but not to exceed 1 of each class.
▪ A Party of 10 comprised of any 8 classes but not to exceed 2 of each class.
▪ A Party of 25 comprised of any 8 classes but not to exceed 5 of each class.

FYI: Lot of thought made to how power's, or individual feat's work: changing those is ugly.
╘ it also requires more time to change significant individual powers and feat's; while introducing more bugs.
╘ changes to mechanics in several slower/smaller corrections - not huge - but incremental.

soditallover said:
Control wizard major rework required.

at this time the control wizard cannot fill the role it was created to do that being control, the development and management team on several occasions have stated that they cannot work control into the game in any appreciable capacity without ruining the game ie making dungeons and other content trivial.

If this is true and from changes to control powers over the years, this does tend to confirm this status. isn't it time to concede defeat and change control wizards to just wizards drop the control and focus on spell storm casters(high dps ), master of flame (buff /de-buff). the control wizard was intended to be the director of the campaign managing the hordes and suppression. however now your pushing the max you can just to hold a single minion for a few seconds.

Still I do very much agree with the above statement. While I don't like them changing individual Feat's except in a few rare exceptions, I'd prefer they focused mostly on Capstone ones. But Thaumature & Renegade however do need a little extra oomph!

I'd also like if they improved Arcane Stacks from 5 to 7; or increased the damager per stack by 1%. Regardless we can all agree something needs to be done to improve or make Wizard's a little if not a lot more relevant.

yperkeimenos · August 2018

How about the Devs introduce a weapon enchantment that reduces enemy control resistance in general, even of immune creatures with the exception of bosses, by say 20% at transcendent level. So ,for example, a control immune enemy would have its resistance lowered from 100% to 80% when hit by a normal hit or even a critical. Would that give CWs an element of control that's good enough for endgame content? I think it would.

c3rb3r3 · August 2018

yperkeimenos said:
How about the Devs introduce a weapon enchantment that reduces enemy control resistance in general, even of immune creatures with the exception of bosses, by say 20% at transcendent level. So ,for example, a control immune enemy would have its resistance lowered from 100% to 80% when hit by a normal hit or even a critical. Would that give CWs an element of control that's good enough for endgame content? I think it would.

class dependant of a single item (to add expensive) isn't a right path imo

vorphied · August 2018

yperkeimenos said:
How about the Devs introduce a weapon enchantment that reduces enemy control resistance in general, even of immune creatures with the exception of bosses, by say 20% at transcendent level. So ,for example, a control immune enemy would have its resistance lowered from 100% to 80% when hit by a normal hit or even a critical. Would that give CWs an element of control that's good enough for endgame content? I think it would.

Control isn't actually the problem, though; damage is what's required to be relevant as a DPS, and just getting the job done isn't good enough when the class is constantly compared to TR, GWF, etc., etc.

I see a lot of negative feedback around CW's control abilities, but control is the least of CW's concerns. If control beyond base efficacy were truly beneficial, we'd have CWs running Orb of Imposition and control strength active bonuses for BiS, but that's definitely not the case.

The devs could increase CW control strength by 200% and still leave them just as undesirable in public queues as they are currently. That's barking up entirely the wrong tree.

yperkeimenos · August 2018

vorphied said:

yperkeimenos said:
How about the Devs introduce a weapon enchantment that reduces enemy control resistance in general, even of immune creatures with the exception of bosses, by say 20% at transcendent level. So ,for example, a control immune enemy would have its resistance lowered from 100% to 80% when hit by a normal hit or even a critical. Would that give CWs an element of control that's good enough for endgame content? I think it would.
Control isn't actually the problem, though; damage is what's required to be relevant as a DPS, and just getting the job done isn't good enough when the class is constantly compared to TR, GWF, etc., etc.

I see a lot of negative feedback around CW's control abilities, but control is the least of CW's concerns. If control beyond base efficacy were truly beneficial, we'd have CWs running Orb of Imposition and control strength active bonuses for BiS, but that's definitely not the case.

The devs could increase CW control strength by 200% and still leave them just as undesirable in public queues as they are currently. That's barking up entirely the wrong tree.

Well if that's the case and damage is everything,then i'll have to agree with the op and turn CWs into just Ws. Give them a new strong damage spell,like Cloudkill (I'd love to see some AD&D spell variety in Neverwinter), rework them to be more damage focused and be done with the useless Control element. Epic monsters have such a high immunity to control effects, anyway, that still talking about control in this game ,as if it's something viable, is a joke.

vorphied · September 2018

yperkeimenos said:

vorphied said:

yperkeimenos said:
How about the Devs introduce a weapon enchantment that reduces enemy control resistance in general, even of immune creatures with the exception of bosses, by say 20% at transcendent level. So ,for example, a control immune enemy would have its resistance lowered from 100% to 80% when hit by a normal hit or even a critical. Would that give CWs an element of control that's good enough for endgame content? I think it would.
Control isn't actually the problem, though; damage is what's required to be relevant as a DPS, and just getting the job done isn't good enough when the class is constantly compared to TR, GWF, etc., etc.

I see a lot of negative feedback around CW's control abilities, but control is the least of CW's concerns. If control beyond base efficacy were truly beneficial, we'd have CWs running Orb of Imposition and control strength active bonuses for BiS, but that's definitely not the case.

The devs could increase CW control strength by 200% and still leave them just as undesirable in public queues as they are currently. That's barking up entirely the wrong tree.
Well if that's the case and damage is everything,then i'll have to agree with the op and turn CWs into just Ws. Give them a new strong damage spell,like Cloudkill (I'd love to see some AD&D spell variety in Neverwinter), rework them to be more damage focused and be done with the useless Control element. Epic monsters have such a high immunity to control effects, anyway, that still talking about control in this game ,as if it's something viable, is a joke.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that control is useless, but we already have a lot of it. Developers in MMOs traditionally struggle to balance control powers because player crowd control tends to be either so powerful as to be perceived as utterly necessary (not to mention that players don't really enjoy fighting statues the entire time) or so weak as to be inconsequential.

I'd argue that there's nothing wrong with CW control the way it is now; even in end-game dungeons, almost all trash mobs are perfectly controllable and are constantly getting frozen and stunned...provided that they're allowed to live long enough for the control to have made a noticeable difference. Unless we see a surprise return to the days of needing to control entire armies of trash that refuse to die instantly (unlikely, given how target caps are set), control will remain a byproduct of CW's dealing damage and buffing/debuffing.

kriptical1 · September 2018

Unless control can be expanded beyond a quick freeze stun it’s pretty useless...an Enchanter we are not. If they want to introduce something like that things could become interesting...however, until then we’re debuff//light dps and that’s kinda...meh...

hustin1 · September 2018

The problem boils down to boss immunity. No one ever has issues with the trash mobs in dungeons; parties are built entirely around the incredibly high rates of dps they must achieve so they can kill the bosses before Catastrophic Fight Mechanic™ can kick in to wipe the party. What controllers need is the ability for control powers have some effect on players' ability to defeat these bosses, for example:

- increase boss susceptibility to damage
- delay the Catastrophic Fight Mechanic™
- mitigate the effects of Catastrophic Fight Mechanic™

For me the second one makes the most sense. The fact that bosses are 100% immune to the entire point of an entire feat tree is the problem.

strathkin · September 2018

I mean it be nice if Wizard's were at least a little more able to resist, control abilities put out by bosses getting them into the fight sooner! I mean even reducing the effects of a push/pull by 10-40% or how long a Wizard is dazed/stunned by Demogorgon, reducing the control 10-40% sooner might not help a party, but would gets Wizard's into the fight sooner. That in and of itself would help make Wizard's a little more appealing - provided they could survive a few seconds on their own!

Control or Control Resist Tree's focus in Oppressor has largely become lost, it's capable of doing as much damage as Thaumaturge or more, and many don't like how that was usurped! People don't want a lot yet would love Thaumaturge to retake the TOP spot.

Sadly Wizard's damage dealing capabilities are slightly subpar, compared to Cleric who can do more, all while giving greater buff's! Sure I realize Wizard's aren't going to have it all... ...but returning some of the Control Mitigation abilities, along with a slight DPS boost would make them relevant again. Why I think even if they just extended Wizard's Arcane Stacks by 2 more it go along way.

Perhaps a small BUFF to Thurmaturge Damage so it's again clearly the DPS leader for Wizard's, or slightly enhance the Renegade BUFF path as it doesn't compare either.

cambo1682 · September 2018

It seems the cryptic devs responsible for ballance are fine leaving it as is. I'm just as choked about the state of SS Thaum as many. It is a fun path to play... but it's really not desired outside of a core group that you run with regularly. I've seen posts bemoaning the days of 5 CW's in CN. No I don't think we should go back to that, but I will never understand gimping a class that was once so popular and enjoyed by so many. They came so close letting storm spell crit again then in one fell swoop kicked the path in the nuts.

I would like to see some sort of proportional trade off. If a critter is not control immune then the power remains at it's base damage. If something like an elite is X% control immune, then the base power is boosted proportionally by X%, right up to 100% control immune targets. Kind of an Oppressor capstone proviso applied to every power. I'm skeptical they would put that kind of work in to the class when clearly they have such a poor understanding of what they have done to it thus far.

hustin1 · September 2018

I tried testing a theory earlier tonight regarding TONG, but that blasted "partial" paralysis kept me from fully testing it (there was nothing "partial" about it). I wanted to see if a CW with astronomical CC could launch the souls off the platform. It was only a test and none of us expected to complete it. I didn't get the chance to try Arcane Singularity, but Ice Storm launched the skeleton adds clear into the next time zone. The only adds who didn't go off the platform were the ones who lucked out and just barely landed on a far corner of the floor. Unfortunately the souls take longer to spawn and I kept being paralyzed while waiting for them to appear. For some reason, the proc rate of Partial Paralysis on my CW was maybe 3x as often as it is on any other toon, even though my CW has more control resist.

vorphied · September 2018

Defiant Souls are immune to CC. The best bet for knocking them out quickly as a CW is to have Oppressive Force ticking in the instant they spawn.

pitmonster · September 2018

hustin1 said:
I tried testing a theory earlier tonight regarding TONG, but that blasted "partial" paralysis kept me from fully testing it (there was nothing "partial" about it). I wanted to see if a CW with astronomical CC could launch the souls off the platform. It was only a test and none of us expected to complete it. I didn't get the chance to try Arcane Singularity, but Ice Storm launched the skeleton adds clear into the next time zone. The only adds who didn't go off the platform were the ones who lucked out and just barely landed on a far corner of the floor. Unfortunately the souls take longer to spawn and I kept being paralyzed while waiting for them to appear. For some reason, the proc rate of Partial Paralysis on my CW was maybe 3x as often as it is on any other toon, even though my CW has more control resist.

Again, another fix for CW would be to keep them from being controlled. That would not over power the class as they would be about the only ones not controlled in most situations, just gives the party some help while the rest are helpless.

There is no "control" left in the Control Wizard at end-game

vorphied · September 2018

> @pitmonster#5684 said:
> I tried testing a theory earlier tonight regarding TONG, but that blasted "partial" paralysis kept me from fully testing it (there was nothing "partial" about it). I wanted to see if a CW with astronomical CC could launch the souls off the platform. It was only a test and none of us expected to complete it. I didn't get the chance to try Arcane Singularity, but Ice Storm launched the skeleton adds clear into the next time zone. The only adds who didn't go off the platform were the ones who lucked out and just barely landed on a far corner of the floor. Unfortunately the souls take longer to spawn and I kept being paralyzed while waiting for them to appear. For some reason, the proc rate of Partial Paralysis on my CW was maybe 3x as often as it is on any other toon, even though my CW has more control resist.
>
> Again, another fix for CW would be to keep them from being controlled. That would not over power the class as they would be about the only ones not controlled in most situations, just gives the party some help while the rest are helpless.
>
> There is no "control" left in the Control Wizard at end-game

Unfortunately, this would be of no benefit in group content and would just be a sort of QoL feature for already-trivial solo content.

If CW could grant CC-immunity to a party via some power or feat, there would be some positive impact, but Anointed Army already does a great job of mitigating the most irritating CC. What the community at large seems to demand from CW is competitive DPS and/or support (e.g. increased party damage), not more CC or CC-mitigation.

rjc9000 · September 2018

pitmonster#5684 said:

There is no "control" left in the Control Wizard at end-game

I can troll with Imprisonment, controlling teammates to make them go about a fit of rage.

Does that count?

strathkin · September 2018

pitmonster#5684 said:

hustin1 said:
I tried testing a theory earlier tonight regarding TONG, but that blasted "partial" paralysis kept me from fully testing it (there was nothing "partial" about it). I wanted to see if a CW with astronomical CC could launch the souls off the platform. It was only a test and none of us expected to complete it. I didn't get the chance to try Arcane Singularity, but Ice Storm launched the skeleton adds clear into the next time zone. The only adds who didn't go off the platform were the ones who lucked out and just barely landed on a far corner of the floor. Unfortunately the souls take longer to spawn and I kept being paralyzed while waiting for them to appear. For some reason, the proc rate of Partial Paralysis on my CW was maybe 3x as often as it is on any other toon, even though my CW has more control resist.
Again, another fix for CW would be to keep them from being controlled. That would not over power the class as they would be about the only ones not controlled in most situations, just gives the party some help while the rest are helpless.

There is no "control" left in the Control Wizard at end-game

Part I - Control

Yea I said something very similar, above your post, if a Control Wizard based on their Control Resist was more effective at getting them back into the fight sooner! I remember when I had a full Valindra's Set with 15% control and 10% control resist bonus, also had a Will-o-Wisp Companion with 25% control resist and 15% control bonus on top. Not to mention being an Elf which is 'supposed' to make you greatly resistant to magical control abilities even though the racial bonus is only but 10%.

In D&D Elf's & Drow too - were to be highly resistant to control effects of any kind.
This should likely always reduced their duration by 1-2.5 seconds especially as some effects last up to 7-9 seconds, not just a simple +10% control resistance bonus on a attribute you can barely increase except but with a few rare artifacts.

Still even my Elf even with just those 3 bonuses who had their control resist at +45%, yet there are no enchantments, runestones, gear or other things (except insignia in the lessor buff category) to increase those attributes. Still having a high control resist BUFF and/or control resist % gain don't reduce any control effects duration at all? It was nice to see a year later we do now have our first boon in Ravenloft to extends control resist beyond an Artifact. I think Dragon's Grip in Dragon's campaign can also increase the control % as well but not base buff.

Still today even with two artifact's with control resist of 1200 and a control resist bonus of +45% you won't even notice a 0.25s reduction in how long your locked up by Demogorgon or many other bosses/mini bosses. So why isn't control resist reducing the timer dependant on how someone else control ability is? Or perhaps it's just because player's if they are lucky could only get to 1200-1800 before though now it's possible 1200 higher with Raven boon in Barovia. Still I think most bosses control is vast so much higher we don't even have a chance to slightly reduce it, that's why I stopped stopped using all my active companions with control or control resist benefits. Most have even though some are adorable companions cause I was just dying too much.

Say if Wizard's could at least reduce Demogorgon's 9s stun down by 1-2s or if Elf's had it shortened for them by 1.5-3 seconds depending on their control &/or control resist then it be more consistent with how D&D LORE is written. Say people might even love Elves or Drow more if it shorted a control ability against them by 1.5-3 seconds.

Part II - DPS Class Balance

A GWF is of course the clear top end of the DPS classes by a wide margin, closely followed by it's cousin the Guardian Fighter, depending on the Feat Path selected. I mean Hunter Ranger's use to be in a good spot, but since Careful attack has been bugged for 7-9 months, they've really been in limbo - that BUG is very long overdue to being fixed.

In the mean time they have at least revised or reduced some of the NERFs given to Warlocks, and many are at least now Happy to be playing Warlocks again! Rogue are mostly also in a mostly good place after some adjustments, though you have to know a Rogue well to maximize its potential, but the same is likely true for every class in some regard.

I mean were likely far closer to Class balance today than we had been in the past and all that would likely require being done is for Cryptic - to fix Careful Attack on Pathfinder HR's and make a few subtle nerf's to GWF's with finally a few enhancements to Wizards and we'd probably be very close to mostly balanced classes!

Oh Corellon I can't believe I said that! Maybe a new Class in Mod 16/17 possible?

@mimicking#6533

hustin1 · September 2018

Valindra set - check
Will'o wisp - check
Cantankerous mage - check
Red slaad - check

You just described my primary CW (the one I was testing with). Come to Yester Hill some night and I'll show you Twig Blight astronaut training using Arcane Singlarity

strathkin · September 2018

I like your sense of humor.

"For some reason, the proc rate of Partial Paralysis on my CW was maybe 3x as often as it is on any other toon, even though my CW has more control resist."

Yea also as I noted Elf's or Drow are supposed to be highly resistant to Control Effect's according to D&D Lore, and yet all they see as a racial bonus is a 10% control resist bonus, on a base value that is lucky if it goes beyond 1200-1800. Yet even if it does and you also have companions with 15%, 25% or 50% like the Slyph combined you still won't see even a 0.5 second reduction in control to Demogorgon's Control Daze or Freeze Lockup that can last 8-9 in total. Perhaps control resist should reduce control effect's against you as an adjustment?

The bigger challenge is having high control or control resist, as it has no real effect on mini bosses or bosses at all. It would be nice if Control &/or Control Resist was more balanced. For example: If you had higher Control perhaps you could 'NOT' Freeze a boss but your AoE, DoT, lasted longer as well?

It would be nice if Wizard's or all Classes could reduce the push/pull or how long stuns/dazes/spells control them especially if their giving up power or something else to gain it. I've always wondered about Elf's or Drow as they were always supposed to be highly resistant to stuns, charms, or magic abilities that result in a loss of control so them reducing the time would be good as well.

Regardless I still think the Design team is doing an very excellent job!

We often as players don't realize all the various objectives, goals, features, enhancements, and everything else that comes down to decisions on what to focus on. But now is the time to start reconsidering Control/Control Resist in addition to possibly nerfing GWF a little, possibly enhancing Wizard, and maybe fixing Hunter Ranger's Pathfinder paragon - Careful Attack BUG, or finally extend Sacred Weapon for Paladin from 3 to 4 hits.

:*

hustin1 · September 2018

For what it's worth, I tallied up everything that affects control bonus on my CW. It looks like there is a difference between control bonus and control duration. My impression is that control bonus provides a percentage boost to control duration, and it is the duration boost that is really important (it would be really nice if the UI could tell us the total percentage boost). That said, it also looks like control duration also affects other CC aspects: for instance, my Arcane Singularity pulls a lot harder than it does for other CW's.

https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1234740/arcane-singularity-bizarre-effect-in-level-73-zones

Control bonus stat

600 - Valindra's crown
600 - insignias
391 - offhand artifact stat bonus

total: 1591

Control duration bonus %

9  - control bonus stat
10 - wisdom 20 stat
20 - orb of imposition
5  - offhand artifact bonus
15 - valindra set
15 - will-o'wisp
25 - red slaad
25 - cantankerous mage
10 - dragon's grip boon
10 - baleful clutch boon

total: 144

special:

25 - demonic domination boon (vs. demons only)

total: 169

unknown:

20 - loyal master companion gear x2

total: 164/189

additional:

campfire bonus: +1 wisdom, adds another 1%
elixir of fate or heroism: +1 wisdom

pitmonster · September 2018

strathkin said:

I mean were likely far closer to Class balance today than we had been in the past and all that would likely require being done is for Cryptic - to fix Careful Attack on Pathfinder HR's and make a few subtle nerf's to GWF's with finally a few enhancements to Wizards and we'd probably be very close to mostly balanced classes!

Oh Corellon I can't believe I said that! Maybe a new Class in Mod 16 possible?

@mimicking#6533

Where would you fit the Paladin in? I feel its the left out class for the most part, at least for parties.

strathkin · September 2018

@pitmonster#5684

Part I - One Minor Change to Paladin that should be made.

I mean Paladin's won't do as much damage as a Guardian Fighter for sure, but their in one of the most clear support roles being in that class. Paladin's while they do respectable damage they likely won't ever make the top 1/3rd and their often lucky if they can do half the damage of a DPS class in any dungeon. The class is centered on either taking the heavy hit's, or being able to shield some while doing good healing. Almost every Party will require a good Paladin regardless of Paragon, provided they know the role and how to play it well.

Paladin's I think are mostly in a good place - despite them previously getting handed two substantial nerf's to Daily power's. The only one thing I'd like to see for Paladin's is for them to perhaps speed up the animation for Sacred Weapon or at least just extend the hit's out from 3 to instead 4. If they did that one thing for Paladin they'd be in good shape too!

Like many of the things asked or talked about here most are relatively small or easier to implement changes or tweaks and Class balance likely be very close to being within reach.

Part II - One BUG that needs to be fixed on Hunter Rangers.

I do clearly recognize Hunter Ranger's also have a clear issue as they require the Pathfinder Careful Attack BUG finally fixed.

Part III - GWF needs a slight nerf to allow a little more time for others classes damage to count.

I just ran a Dwarven God's with a GWF:
This Great Weapon Fighter was 12,047 item level and R9 Plague Fire and did 20m damage, my Wizard's did 22m yet my Wizard is just shy of 15k with a R10 Dread and with Bonding has almost 74% critical chance. My goodness he was cutting thru things often far faster than I could, often if he was near me enemy would be dead before I could cast Daily's or several other abilities... If it wasn't for Icy Terrain doing lots of AoE damage mob's he would have easily surpassed me.

I think that's why many realize GWF likely needs to be nerfed - even if just a little bit - though I don't suspect we'll see anything drastic or moderate! But if they just reduced their damage a little bit it allow several other classes abilities to take hold or cast so their damage could count. Many classes have daily's, encounters, at even At-Wils that even when they can do high to good damage, they simply have more than take far longer to cast than a GWF does.

Someone interviewed Thomas Foss @mimicking#6533 (Game Designer) during a player's PAX interview they streamed, eluded about a possible GWF nerf at some point? I don't know the guy a guild leader & friend in my old alliance posted to her discord - and nothing was revealed except subtle body language - yet I have a high degree of respect for many great things Thomas has done & continues to do for Neverwinter! My goodness as I eluded to above, I think were very close to seeing Class Balance being within reach!

Maybe extend Pally's Sacred Weapon hits from 3 to 4, Fix the Hunter Pathfinder Careful Attack BUG, slightly nerf GWF a little tiny bit, to allow other classes damage to count more, and for Wizard's I'll summarize that below with some friendly suggestions.

Part IV - Wizard's

I don't think we'll see a huge change for Wizard's, but be nice to see Thaumaturge the top DPS path again, or possible a slight buff to Renegade. It likely wouldn't also hurt if they gave all Wizard's an additional 2 stacks of Arcane to slowly build up to as it would help improve all Wizard's regardless of Paragon or Feat Path. Wizard has been hurting since Mod 12 especially since the Lightning changes. Most Wizard's heavily relied upon it, but most classes limited what powers could multi-proc lighting, the exception being the GWF.

But that's my take from a player perspective, and I also have 1 character of every class, so I try to at least be fair or objective to all classes.

bodini72 · September 2018

I agree with most everything posted here. my main is also a CW, has been for years. I see a very easy fix for this. Any mob or boss immune to CC takes added damage from any control effect. How much damage obviously would be the concern for class balance. For mobs not immune to CC, no difference, but to others it could put our dps in line with the other legit dps classes and hopefully allow us to run as something other than mof in end game content.

Maybe I'm missing something but to me that seems like a very simple change/fix. For all the other classes that have "some" CC capabilities questioning the fix. I'd say that those classes have already been looked into for their main purpose. The TR finally got a MUCH NEEDED fix to their dps. The HR has been put in line with the GWF a while ago. Even the GF dps spec is in line with the others(more or less anyway). The SW is the only other class that i can think of that would benifit from this kind of fix (regarding class balance i mean).

We as CW's are meant to be controllers and due to the direction of the game over the last few yrs it is not an essential part of the game in end game content for the most part. That being said, that puts us at a very big disadvantage when it comes to end game content (unless you want to run as only a mof).

There wouldn't need to be much if any change applied to mobs with resistance as that is what control power is for. While I do agree that the amount of control on more powerful mobs is massively diminished, I don't see that as a game changer. Our overall DPS output on bosses(control immune mobs) is where the issues really are.

I think my fellow CW's can agree( I hope anyway) that on groups of mobs our numerous CC's, direct damage and DOT's played properly can put us in line more or less with most other DPS classes. Even in new content mobs die so fast that real CC isn't a concern.

strathkin · September 2018

@bodini72

Yea 'we' as a group had several touch on that a bit earlier on about control. Suggesting if it perhaps also gave a slight damage boost though we suggested extending how long AoE or DoT triggered for. It was also noted it be nice if control resist worked so it could perhaps shortened the time you were dazed, frozen, locked up.

It just be some simple mathematics to figure how long or how less control might apply to you:

[(Casters Control) x (Casters Control % buff)] - [(Target's Control Resist) x (Target's Control Resist % buff)]
[(1200) x (50%)] - [(600) x (75%)] = Shown as: [(1200) x (1.50%)] - [(600) x (1.75%)] =
[1800] - [1050] = +750 control bonus so resulted in possible extended duration for caster by 0.25s - 3.5s at max.

OR

[(Casters Control) x (Casters Control % buff)] - [(Target's Control Resist) x (Target's Control Resist % buff)]
[(600) x (50%)] - [(1800) x (75%)] = Shown as: [(600) x (1.50%)] - [(1800) x (1.75%)] =
[900] - [3150] = -2250 control bonus resulted in possible reduced control duration for caster by 0.25s - 3.5s at max.

While many players control abilities often only last 4 to 6 seconds being able to extend or reduce them by 3.5 seconds be especially a nice benefit especially for extending some AoE / DoT. I'm not sure it should extend non control type powers damage, but I don't think anyone is suggesting it would either. Control abilities by some Bosses can last 9s like Demogorgon, or for Valindra's and her Death Grip in Malabog's almost 13s, especially if no one is around to help you out of it. So being able to reduce both of those by 3.5 seconds still wouldn't make it laughable if you did get controlled but it would help control resist to see you getting back into the fight sooner!

I'd still like to see Wizard's given 2 more Arcane Stacks, and a slight buff to Thaumaturge so it's the DPS path again. Yet most asks aren't anything earth shaddering, just a few smaller collective enhancements, so Wizard are at least desirable again.

Depending how they adjust GWF & Wizard, or if they fix the HR Pathfinder Careful Attack Bug, maybe extend Paladin's Sacred Weapon from 3 to 4 hits. I suspect any additional changes to Warlock will wait till after adjustments to GWF though... in fact likely most classes would have to wait or be slightly enchanced at that time.

Still class balance is very achievable in next 1 or 2 MOD's depending how it's approached.

pterias · September 2018

A couple things I wouldn't mind seeing:
- The Oppressor capstone giving a small chance to bypass control immunity, even if it's just a 5-10% chance.
- Move the Chilling Presence damage bonus against frozen targets to targets with 6 chill stacks. It would make Chilling Presence even more mandatory (if such a thing is possible), but this would compensate for its damage loss against control immunes.

Control wizard major rework required.

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