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Official: M13 Scourge Warlock Changes

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  • dragonsbitedragonsbite Posts: 42Member Arc User
    edited February 18
    Yup not seeing any missing Dreadthefts with the 100-100 weapon now. It may explain some of the other inconsistencies. More testing needed.
  • obsidiancran3obsidiancran3 Posts: 1,029Member Arc User
    Further testing shows that PoP also looses tics if you get the dummy to 0 health and keep it there, so the Caer Konig dummy is not suitable for testing with full weapons.
  • espasbadfistespasbadfist Posts: 16Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    Hi all. In the very beginning of mod 13 on preview i tested a templock build with healing warmth boon and i am like 100% sure that it was procced when healing my companion. This seems not to work anymore currently - maybe by mistake? I would be glad if healing warmth and burning guidance would do their job for templock too as they do for dc and healadin.

    Another thing i noticed was an error/inconsistency when playing around with the at-wills on my sb fury build on preview (but i think it is the same on life currently): The damage that is shown in the power tab on the character sheet differs from the damage that is shown by the tooltip for the powers that you have in the bottom bar. Further i have the feeling, that the "real" value is that from the power bar and not from the character sheet. From the character sheet essence defiler should inflict like 300 damage and hand of blight between 3000-5000. The values shown in the power bar would then be like 2500-3500 for essence defiler and about 2000-3000 for hand of blight (just for illustration, real values are different). Looking from the character sheet hand of blight should do a ton more damage than essence defiler but it does not. Don't get me wrong here - the damage from essence defiler is just fine but i think it would be nice if the damage values from the character sheet match with the values on the power bar. So i would suggest to fix the damage shown for essence defiler on the power sheet first and then make the values match between character sheet and power bar.
  • etelgrinetelgrin Posts: 1,504Member Arc User
    edited February 19
    Issue: Scourge Warlock Does NO damage in PvP.

    Escalation: Regardless of taken armor penetration, INT (statistic responsible for resistance ignored), if you have 20k amor pen, 14k armor pen (easy to achieve cause its just guild boon + come what may from gear and draconics), if you have 6k-8k armor pen (statistics forcused more towards armor pen and set artifacts for it, + draconics) always result in SW to have anywhere between 14%-25% effectiveness, means from all the possible damage it only manage to deliver 14% to 20% on average. This reduce the damage vastly and makes it far less threatening to say the least. The way DoT class compliments usually on this sort of nerf is to introduce some sort of piercing damage, like a new Killing Curse could do piercing hits, it would allow to control damage and make it higher (a portion of weapon damage on hit) is easier to control than if class altogether does burst. There is no way for SW to do more damage because regardless if you are hitting a Mage, a Tank - a CW, GF, DC whatever it will leave you at this average 20% effectiveness. It's all due to high deflect severity, high deflect chance, high defense and unmitigitable damage of things such as negation which renders dots to uselessness in a matter of couple ticks, and tenacity resistance buff. You can't blame things like deflect or defense for existance but only poor SW performance.

    Solution: Add small portion of piercing damage to the passives like Creeping Death, Killing Curse, Critical Promise or even feats, maybe make Murderous Flames piercing or trigger from more power than only Killing Flames. This way it would make up the damage lost and also for the sake of reworked Templock it has to be doing more damage because he will not heal in PvP nothing at all, the healing is penalized because it comes from damage, due to tenacity and all other resistances then the outgoing heal is penalized again by same tenacity but by the healing component, this way you will heal allies for 20 points, this is I believe not how it should be designed, is worse than the worst insignia proc (ex. Survivor Blessing on average 25% deflection chance heals more). For Templock I reccomend adding this piercing to Darkness feature so it can have some way of generating heals.

    EDIT: I will put it this way, even if you give SW +300% power to all encounter powers, it will still be a 14%-25% of this increased value, this is not a solution, we shouldn't be really boosting more powers since they rely on weapon damage and the more there is the higher the damage outcome, what we need is to increase the real damage done.
    Post edited by etelgrin on

    Pug Panther - PvP SW

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  • espasbadfistespasbadfist Posts: 16Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    etelgrin said:

    Issue: Scourge Warlock Does NO damage in PvP.

    Escalation: Regardless of taken armor penetration, INT (statistic responsible for resistance ignored), if you have 20k amor pen, 14k armor pen (easy to achieve cause its just guild boon + come what may from gear and draconics), if you have 6k-8k armor pen (statistics forcused more towards armor pen and set artifacts for it, + draconics) always result in SW to have anywhere between 14%-25% effectiveness, means from all the possible damage it only manage to deliver 14% to 20% on average. This reduce the damage vastly and makes it far less threatening to say the least. The way DoT class compliments usually on this sort of nerf is to introduce some sort of piercing damage, like a new Killing Curse could do piercing hits, it would allow to control damage and make it higher (a portion of weapon damage on hit) is easier to control than if class altogether does burst. There is no way for SW to do more damage because regardless if you are hitting a Mage, a Tank - a CW, GF, DC whatever it will leave you at this average 20% effectiveness. It's all due to high deflect severity, high deflect chance, high defense and unmitigitable damage of things such as negation which renders dots to uselessness in a matter of couple ticks, and tenacity resistance buff. You can't blame things like deflect or defense for existance but only poor SW performance.

    Solution: Add small portion of piercing damage to the passives like Creeping Death, Killing Curse, Critical Promise or even feats, maybe make Murderous Flames piercing or trigger from more power than only Killing Flames. This way it would make up the damage lost and also for the sake of reworked Templock it has to be doing more damage because he will not heal in PvP nothing at all, the healing is penalized because it comes from damage, due to tenacity and all other resistances then the outgoing heal is penalized again by same tenacity but by the healing component, this way you will heal allies for 20 points, this is I believe not how it should be designed, is worse than the worst insignia proc (ex. Survivor Blessing on average 25% deflection chance heals more). For Templock I reccomend adding this piercing to Darkness feature so it can have some way of generating heals.

    I think this is a really good idea! My favourite would be to make creeping death piercing damage at all - just by logic this is like a disease that is applied to the target. How is anybody capable of deflecting or putting up defense against influenca? Basically the same would be true for damage from any kind of curse, just to mention it. That would mean that at least lesser curse and warlocks bargain should be piercing damage too by this reasoning - even hadars grasp maybe. Or think of hand of blight - this one is a little too weak currently in my opinion. Why don't give it a piercing damage component?

    Just a little story here: Some weeks ago i did a private 1v1 pvp with my girlfriends hunter ranger. She hit me with longstrider first probably and then gave me some aimed shots (archer build). She did like 50k hits after mitigation with this. Under best circumstanses i could hit her with killing flames for only about 40k under best circumstances. How is it even possible that a hr can do more damage (at least in pvp) with an at-will than i can do with the hardest hitting encounter a warlock probably has? By the way we both are about same IL and i think we both were running with trans elven battle.
  • murphyvamurphyva Posts: 28Member Arc User
    I'm reading a lot of feedback on the temptation path for the SW but has someone tested the changes for the fury spec for dps ?
    If so, could someone break it down for me as to how it performes compared to its current state. I'm barely making any progressions on my SW and this mod was a complete waste for being a scourge since its highly unlikely people are happy to see a scourge in their T9G queue group.
  • espasbadfistespasbadfist Posts: 16Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    murphyva said:

    I'm reading a lot of feedback on the temptation path for the SW but has someone tested the changes for the fury spec for dps ?
    If so, could someone break it down for me as to how it performes compared to its current state. I'm barely making any progressions on my SW and this mod was a complete waste for being a scourge since its highly unlikely people are happy to see a scourge in their T9G queue group.

    I think that any fury or damnation build has no chance to compete with the damage from gf, gwf and probably hr or tr on same IL. For soulbinder the improvements that were made are a step in the right direction and dps will increase but i don't think that this is enough to make up for the benefits that weapon master builds will still have from lighting enchantment and the interactions with aura of courage from OP paladin. @schietindebux has put some data on this into this thread and gave some personal opinion to this too.

    For hellbringer i would expect that the dps could get a real boost simply because PoP can crit now. If you use all consuming curse any target in the range of PoP will get cursed and should trigger killing curse from then on. Critical promise will be triggered too and together with infernal wrath you will deal some nice damage from this. Drawdown: This is a dps/buff build. Allies will get some noticeable extra damage too making those that have already too much power even more powerfull. This is not a bad thing at all and will bring some serious help to any party - but probably most people wont recognize it because they know nothing about warlocks and will continue to avoid you as much as they can :(

    I think if you want to run things like t9g as a fury or damnation you better have two very good friends with you that vote against kicking you out.
  • murphyvamurphyva Posts: 28Member Arc User

    murphyva said:

    I'm reading a lot of feedback on the temptation path for the SW but has someone tested the changes for the fury spec for dps ?
    If so, could someone break it down for me as to how it performes compared to its current state. I'm barely making any progressions on my SW and this mod was a complete waste for being a scourge since its highly unlikely people are happy to see a scourge in their T9G queue group.

    I think that any fury or damnation build has no chance to compete with the damage from gf, gwf and probably hr or tr on same IL. For soulbinder the improvements that were made are a step in the right direction and dps will increase but i don't think that this is enough to make up for the benefits that weapon master builds will still have from lighting enchantment and the interactions with aura of courage from OP paladin. @schietindebux has put some data on this into this thread and gave some personal opinion to this too.

    For hellbringer i would expect that the dps could get a real boost simply because PoP can crit now. If you use all consuming curse any target in the range of PoP will get cursed and should trigger killing curse from then on. Critical promise will be triggered too and together with infernal wrath you will deal some nice damage from this. Drawdown: This is a dps/buff build. Allies will get some noticeable extra damage too making those that have already too much power even more powerfull. This is not a bad thing at all and will bring some serious help to any party - but probably most people wont recognize it because they know nothing about warlocks and will continue to avoid you as much as they can :(

    I think if you want to run things like t9g as a fury or damnation you better have two very good friends with you that vote against kicking you out.

    Was hoping for a more inspiring answer but i'm happy someone gave it to me straight :) guess i'll start building a dc now
  • espasbadfistespasbadfist Posts: 16Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    murphyva said:




    Was hoping for a more inspiring answer but i'm happy someone gave it to me straight :) guess i'll start building a dc now

    Nah, i personally think that you should not do that. With a templock loadout you probably have a very good chance to get into high end dungeons. As i heard do-dc will probably loose some ground against templock and it is rather likely that templock can substitute do-dc. A friend of mine did a t9g run with a templock on preview replacing one dc and he said that there was no real difference in time for the run. He stated that he had the feeling that it was even faster as with a dc. He already has a rather good dc (that he also did a lot of t9g runs with) and is now preparing a templock build for the next module.

    And from my current experience any SW build in the new module will be able to run all solo-content available. Even if there is a load to do i think that @balanced#2849 is on a good way. From my very personal opinion it is not that the warlock is too weak but that some other classes are ridicously too strong - partly because of some self buff mechanic, partly because of some weird effects of lightning enchantments, power share and aura of courage from OP paladin. And btw, even if it hurts to say it, as long as this does not change it is really a question if the game could provide any challenge anymore if you make the warlock as overpowered as the others currently are.
  • patcherrkmpatcherrkm Posts: 86Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    Warlocks suffrage won’t be that they aren’t capable of being awesome, because in truth we are HAMSTER on test server. Unfortunately we suffer because so many warlocks are clueless and have no idea how to be useful to a group. I constantly hear warlocks raving about how much healing they did. Guess what. Nobody cares.
  • murphyvamurphyva Posts: 28Member Arc User

    murphyva said:




    Was hoping for a more inspiring answer but i'm happy someone gave it to me straight :) guess i'll start building a dc now

    Nah, i personally think that you should not do that. With a templock loadout you probably have a very good chance to get into high end dungeons. As i heard do-dc will probably loose some ground against templock and it is rather likely that templock can substitute do-dc. A friend of mine did a t9g run with a templock on preview replacing one dc and he said that there was no real difference in time for the run. He stated that he had the feeling that it was even faster as with a dc. He already has a rather good dc (that he also did a lot of t9g runs with) and is now preparing a templock build for the next module.

    And from my current experience any SW build in the new module will be able to run all solo-content available. Even if there is a load to do i think that @balanced#2849 is on a good way. From my very personal opinion it is not that the warlock is too weak but that some other classes are ridicously too strong - partly because of some self buff mechanic, partly because of some weird effects of lightning enchantments, power share and aura of courage from OP paladin. And btw, even if it hurts to say it, as long as this does not change it is really a question if the game could provide any challenge anymore if you make the warlock as overpowered as the others currently are.
    That's my main problem. I made a SW as a dps class, and then after 2 years of putting in hard work they decide that i could only be viable as a healer. I do appreciate the changes they are trying to make, but i'm not going trough another mod as a waste of a dps slot.
  • espasbadfistespasbadfist Posts: 16Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User

    Warlocks suffrage won’t be that they aren’t capable of being awesome, because in truth we are HAMSTER on test server. Unfortunately we suffer because so many warlocks are clueless and have no idea how to be useful to a group. I constantly hear warlocks raving about how much healing they did. Guess what. Nobody cares.

    Sorry, but i can't agree with you except your last statement "Nobody cares". Warlock has been advertised as a damage dealer from the very beginning and most people expect him to be exactly that. There were times when a warlock could fill the main dps role easily if he knew what he does. These times are over for now but hopefully not forever. No warlock could be awesome right now on life or test server - you just have to find the right party and probably you can be happy when you find yourself on rank 4 of paingiver probably just before the dc of the party. If you did not have this experience you probably run with the wrong people >:)

    I have a warlock at 14k+ and if i go fbi on life and run as a templock and deal 17m of healing outhealing the dc by about 10m this healing has been relevant to succeed this run. There were other cases when i could save a dungeon run by stepping back from dps and going heal/support - and that not because i think that my dps is so irrelevant but because there was a serious weakness in the rest of the party eg tank that died or constantly lost aggro or dc that could not keep people alive. Not t9g runs of course. But even with t9g some very good people (that not even are topnotch IL) from my alliance were willing to take me with them as templock and we did it and not only once and in a reasonable speed.
  • macjaemacjae Posts: 2,406Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    etelgrin said:

    Issue: Scourge Warlock Does NO damage in PvP.

    *snipped rest*

    While I largely agree with your post, defensive features also affect other classes. A lot of problems SWs have are also related to how much some classes overperfom in PvP. I think SWs need a damage boost in PvP, but they need other tools more than that. At the same time, they need a larger damage boost in PvE, which should probably aim more at improving area damage. One long-time bugaboo for SW damage capability in PvP is supposedly being fixed, though, namely Cold Shoulder.

    What I find to be the biggest issue for SWs isn't just lack of damage, but the lack of ability to defend against the massive damage available to GFs and GWFs (TRs too obviously; where's the SoD fix?). Currently, the Impenetrable Jungle boon can turn SWs into sitting ducks against GWFs especially. In PvP terms, SWs are functionally similar to GWFs (fast running strikers), but don't perform nearly as well due to both lack of damage and lack of defenses. SWs should excel at longer fights through dots and debuffs, but currently they mostly get blown out of the water by the burst damage that a lot of other classes possess.

    I think I would like to see some changes along the following lines, both in general and to get SWs specifically to a better position in PvP. The points for specific powers are mainly aimed at shoring up weaknesses in specific match-ups to make SWs more competitive.

    - Change Armor Penetration to provide +1% benefit per 200-250 points. Remove the PvP -60% penalty to Armor Penetration. The effect would be to make Armor Penetration derived from other sources than just the stat, such as ability scores and feats, perform a little better in PvP. This is something that the developers have been talking about doing in the past; the other alternative would be to change the PvP penalty to only affect Armor Penetration derived from the stat.

    - Change Impenetrable Jungle to have a 1s base duration on players. Attacking someone and being rewarded for that by being unable to use your primary defensive feature is stupid. It's broken, and it really hurts SWs a lot in PvP against melee classes especially. (If someone wants to argue that there's CC resist in PvP now, it's also worthwhile to keep in mind that one of the main beneficiaries, GWFs, do not use a lot of CC to begin with and hit like trucks.)

    - Temptation warlocks specifically need a relative boost if their healing ability is to perform relatively the same as in PvE. Basically, their healing abilities from the capstone should be less penalized by healing depression because 1) they take a double penalty by the PvP damage reduction features and 2) they can't be activated without a healing depression penalty. However, the relative effect here shouldn't be large; we don't want a new no one-ever-dies meta. The Vampiric Embrace power is also specifically subject to this double hit from the PvP debuff.

    - Warlock's Curse should have some additional aspects to it. Warlock's Curse is presently probably the most boring tab feature in and of itself, and it doesn't feel like a bonus so much as it feels like a penalty to hit targets that are not affected by it, because warlock damage is fairly bad to begin with. It's like warlocks are cursed with a bad class feature, as opposed to inflicting devastating curses on others. What would play well with SW mechanics would be to add a healing debuff to targets affected by Warlock's Curse. That would be nice for PvP without being too disturbing in PvE. Other than that, I'd like to see more interaction with some of the utility powers (class features, little yellow things, whatever you want to call them), with some of them improving Warlock's Curse in additional ways. Deadly Curse could make affected targets take more damage, All-Consuming Curse would make the target take double damage from Lesser Curse, etc.

    - SWs could do with an option for somewhat more movement speed. Something like either +1% per point of Strength above 10, or +0.5% per point of Constitution above 10, a small improvement to shadow slip or Shadow Walk, or making some power or curse effect steal speed from a target and add to the SW. One of the main things SWs have in PvP is their ability to rotate quickly, and they rely greatly on being mobile to stay alive and fight. However, in many cases, other classes are out-mobiling them by a little too much. (This is a tricky balance, as melee classes need to be able to catch up to them to hurt them too, but at the moment, that's not a problem, especially given how node holding works.)

    - Dreadtheft used to be more useful in PvP, when it could fully stack on a single target. If the buffs and debuffs could be doubled while it only affects a single player target, that would bring it back to par.

    - Curse Bite and Accursed Souls should specifically have their damage scale up if they hit fewer targets than their target cap. This makes them more useful for burst damage, and specifically useful as tools against invisible opponents.

    - Flames of Phlegethos should debuff the target's defenses, making them take more damage while it's ongoing, and inflict additional damage to targets with temporary hit points or shields.

    - Harrowstorm should push targets away from the SW when it's reactivated, like a mini-Repel. That would be a useful tool, and also in line with what it does in the source material.

    - Wraith's Shadow should have a more substantial damage debuff.

    - The damage debuff from Warding Curse should be increased to something like double the current value, if not more.

    - Dark Prayers should add 5% DR + 1% per rank regardless of health, on top of the current benefits. SWs do not have high DR to begin with, so an ability that boosts their DR is worth less in PvP, where everyone is running around with lots of Armor Penetration, and making SWs tankier aren't usually a great option for PvE.
  • dragonsbitedragonsbite Posts: 42Member Arc User
    edited February 20
    Our Damage is still HAMSTER. Sure it's nice to get at least a small buff. At least they're sorta trying. Increase our damage by 50% and i might be happy. Although what really needs to be fixed is power creep and the higher base damage weapons and abilities that are bugged that increase damage ie lightning procs for example. I'm looking at GWF for all of these. Until that is fixed there's really no way to balance classes.

    I tried playing this game several times since the game came out. I played a day or 2 only here and there as I didn't really like any of the classes I tried. Late last year I finally tried a Scourge Warlock and finally found a class I enjoyed. Been playing ever since. Well until a couple/few weeks ago. I was told by guildies they were going to fix the class. Sadly they were mistaken. I will NOT spend a cent more on this game until I see more improvements. And I don't mean just this class. I mean fixing what I already stated and other classes that need work as well. I leave the fate of the game and my future in it in the programmers hands. This is not a threat as i find them rather ridiculous. This is just a statement of fact.

    It's real difficult to feel like you're contributing when it looks like below. I'm Thom. What about the other 3. What about the healer.


    Damage looks like this;
    1. is a GWF @63%
    2. is a CW @14%
    3. is me the SW @8%
    4. and 5. are the same person using 2 toons @8%.
    6. is the healer @4%

    The healing is hard to judge as so much is just overhealing. The GWF doing so much damage that Lifesteal just makes the healer look bad when they probably aren't.

    I have much worse examples then above. And instead of playing the game tonight, frankly i'd rather do my dishes. That way i'd at least feel like i'm contributing to something even if that's just cleaning the house.
    Post edited by dragonsbite on
  • werdandi#8366 werdandi Posts: 199Member Arc User
    edited February 20

    Our Damage is still HAMSTER. Sure it's nice to get at least a small buff. At least they're sorta trying. Increase our damage by 50% and i might be happy. Although what really needs to be fixed is power creep and the higher base damage weapons and abilities that are bugged that increase damage ie lightning procs for example. I'm looking at GWF for all of these. Until that is fixed there's really no way to balance classes.

    I tried playing this game several times since the game came out. I played a day or 2 only here and there as I didn't really like any of the classes I tried. Late last year I finally tried a Scourge Warlock and finally found a class I enjoyed. Been playing ever since. Well until a couple/few weeks ago. I was told by guildies they were going to fix the class. Sadly they were mistaken. I will NOT spend a cent more on this game until I see more improvements. And I don't mean just this class. I mean fixing what I already stated and other classes that need work as well. I leave the fate of the game and my future in it in the programmers hands. This is not a threat as i find them rather ridiculous. This is just a statement of fact.

    It's real difficult to feel like you're contributing when it looks like below. I'm Thom. What about the other 3. What about the healer.


    Damage looks like this;
    1. is a GWF @63%
    2. is a CW @14%
    3. is me the SW @8%
    4. and 5. are the same person using 2 toons @8%.
    6. is the healer @4%

    The healing is hard to judge as so much is just overhealing. The GWF doing so much damage that Lifesteal just makes the healer look bad when they probably aren't.

    I have much worse examples then above. And instead of playing the game tonight, frankly i'd rather do my dishes. That way i'd at least feel like i'm contributing to something even if that's just cleaning the house.

    about your ACT log:
    - we have no information on the stats/item level/gameplay of each character
    - GWF has self-empowerment mechanics and is likely to have been exalted or "bane-ified" as main dps; about self-empowerement, I agree that some classes would somehow need a slight nerf on abilities that multiply their damage, even more when they are buffed. This is why GF, GWF and TR can deal so much damage when properly played. But eh, if we had the same mechanism, we would not complain...
    - some dungeons are not good for SWs , e.g MSP, because SWs are not great for trash clearing.
    - who hits first in the pack with burst damage generally comes first: GWF can rush more easily
    - I think you are doing something wrong if you just double the damage of the DC ..
    Post edited by werdandi#8366 on
  • espasbadfistespasbadfist Posts: 16Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User


    about your ACT log:
    - we have no information on the stats/item level/gameplay of each character
    - GWF has self-empowerment mechanics and is likely to have been exalted or "bane-ified" as main dps; about self-empowerement, I agree that some classes would somehow need a slight nerf on abilities that multiply their damage, even more when they are buffed. This is why GF, GWF and TR can deal so much damage when properly played. But eh, if we had the same mechanism, we would not complain...
    - some dungeons are not good for SWs , e.g MSP, because SWs are not great for trash clearing.
    - who hits first in the pack with burst damage generally comes first: GWF can rush more easily
    - I think you are doing something wrong if you just double the damage of the DC ..

    Of course his numbers only scratch at the surface but the general direction that his statement gives does point in the correct direction imho. If he only does 100% more damage than the dc that need not mean that he is doing sth wrong. Most or at least a lot of the damage a furylock deals comes from creeping death. If the GWF kills the targets fast enough those 60% bonus damage on cursed targets are getting void. And don't forget they where fighting for the breadcrumbs the GWF left them.

    Let me repeat myself: If you top paingiver chart you probably just run with the wrong (=weak) people or you found a build (by accident perhaps) that utilizes some kind of broken mechanic.
  • Our Damage is still HAMSTER. Sure it's nice to get at least a small buff. At least they're sorta trying. Increase our damage by 50% and i might be happy. Although what really needs to be fixed is power creep and the higher base damage weapons and abilities that are bugged that increase damage ie lightning procs for example. I'm looking at GWF for all of these. Until that is fixed there's really no way to balance classes.

    I tried playing this game several times since the game came out. I played a day or 2 only here and there as I didn't really like any of the classes I tried. Late last year I finally tried a Scourge Warlock and finally found a class I enjoyed. Been playing ever since. Well until a couple/few weeks ago. I was told by guildies they were going to fix the class. Sadly they were mistaken. I will NOT spend a cent more on this game until I see more improvements. And I don't mean just this class. I mean fixing what I already stated and other classes that need work as well. I leave the fate of the game and my future in it in the programmers hands. This is not a threat as i find them rather ridiculous. This is just a statement of fact.

    It's real difficult to feel like you're contributing when it looks like below. I'm Thom. What about the other 3. What about the healer.


    Damage looks like this;
    1. is a GWF @63%
    2. is a CW @14%
    3. is me the SW @8%
    4. and 5. are the same person using 2 toons @8%.
    6. is the healer @4%

    The healing is hard to judge as so much is just overhealing. The GWF doing so much damage that Lifesteal just makes the healer look bad when they probably aren't.

    I have much worse examples then above. And instead of playing the game tonight, frankly i'd rather do my dishes. That way i'd at least feel like i'm contributing to something even if that's just cleaning the house.

    about your ACT log:
    - we have no information on the stats/item level/gameplay of each character
    - GWF has self-empowerment mechanics and is likely to have been exalted or "bane-ified" as main dps; about self-empowerement, I agree that some classes would somehow need a slight nerf on abilities that multiply their damage, even more when they are buffed. This is why GF, GWF and TR can deal so much damage when properly played. But eh, if we had the same mechanism, we would not complain...
    - some dungeons are not good for SWs , e.g MSP, because SWs are not great for trash clearing.
    - who hits first in the pack with burst damage generally comes first: GWF can rush more easily
    - I think you are doing something wrong if you just double the damage of the DC ..
    Not only that but DCs aren't really straight healers atm. They just prevent you from taking a lotta damage with their buffs.

    And just as you said, SW doing 2x the damage of a DC is just kinda... sad. I ran with a slightly lower geared SW friend recently and he almost matches my GWF in single target, and I'm not a bad GWF at all. That's what skill does.


    Also, you're free to do your dishes. Please, do that instead of posting OoC information.
  • merhunesdagon1merhunesdagon1 Posts: 146Member Arc User
    edited February 20
    From what I've been hearing, They plan on nerfing weapon enchants multi proccing. extra severity from the vorpal and dread enchants will be gone after the initial hit. lets not forget lightning enchant and the nerfs coming to CW., but I could be getting the wrong info. If anybody knows more about this they can chime in a bit. Personally I was reluctant to get a lightning enchantment for a while (not that its any better on SW vs dread,fey or vorp). now see everybody on live trying to trade those suckers in for a dread or a feytouched. from my experience with feytouched on SW, the uptime is prety awesome, well there is my 2 cents just thought i would put that out there. If these changes are real wonder how it affects the current meta of the game?

  • merhunesdagon1merhunesdagon1 Posts: 146Member Arc User

    Our Damage is still HAMSTER. Sure it's nice to get at least a small buff. At least they're sorta trying. Increase our damage by 50% and i might be happy. Although what really needs to be fixed is power creep and the higher base damage weapons and abilities that are bugged that increase damage ie lightning procs for example. I'm looking at GWF for all of these. Until that is fixed there's really no way to balance classes.

    I tried playing this game several times since the game came out. I played a day or 2 only here and there as I didn't really like any of the classes I tried. Late last year I finally tried a Scourge Warlock and finally found a class I enjoyed. Been playing ever since. Well until a couple/few weeks ago. I was told by guildies they were going to fix the class. Sadly they were mistaken. I will NOT spend a cent more on this game until I see more improvements. And I don't mean just this class. I mean fixing what I already stated and other classes that need work as well. I leave the fate of the game and my future in it in the programmers hands. This is not a threat as i find them rather ridiculous. This is just a statement of fact.

    It's real difficult to feel like you're contributing when it looks like below. I'm Thom. What about the other 3. What about the healer.


    Damage looks like this;
    1. is a GWF @63%
    2. is a CW @14%
    3. is me the SW @8%
    4. and 5. are the same person using 2 toons @8%.
    6. is the healer @4%

    The healing is hard to judge as so much is just overhealing. The GWF doing so much damage that Lifesteal just makes the healer look bad when they probably aren't.

    I have much worse examples then above. And instead of playing the game tonight, frankly i'd rather do my dishes. That way i'd at least feel like i'm contributing to something even if that's just cleaning the house.

    We dont know what IL u were or the GWF, we dont know what enchants u were using or the gwf. we dont know your stats or the gwf. u may as well be running against a 17k gwf and you are 12k since we have no real info. only something u highlighted on the act.
  • jaime4312#3760 jaime4312 Posts: 786Member Arc User
    edited February 20
    @gromovnipljesak#8234

    Maybe your SW friend is abusing the dps bug and/or your GWF needs some work, there's no way a properly built and played GWF will be almost matched by a SW in single target dps with legit setups.

    @merhunesdagon1

    The way I see it is, the changes to scaling weapon echantments will have no impact whatsoever on vorpal and dread because they merely are extra crit severity so should benefit all the ticks of DoT damage powers.
  • darkan#3756 darkan Posts: 137Member Arc User
    edited February 20
    @merhunesdagon1 if even dont know stats toon tom and GWF i ran many times agnist HR, GWF, CW and always if the diference betwen me and others dps was 2k IL they overcome dps and if even do 3x or 2x of my damage in trash runs if that traslate on dungeons more hardless like a TONG not ist hard imagine sw dealt around 10% or maybe 20% damage from GWF because no mater if you are 17k you will never close dps agnist GWF same IL and if even 2k dps below of you will overcome this fact suggest the most dps output dealt come from gear and companions and maybe 10% from your feats and powers and GWF have many powers selfbuff that contribute revelant form and funtional feats add to gear and companion to make dps
  • obsidiancran3obsidiancran3 Posts: 1,029Member Arc User
    Are you lot really saying that the SW is all OK and the GWF damage disparity is also OK?

    Really?

    If not why are you trying so hard to discredit dragonsbite?

    The devs still acknowledge that SW needs more work, they did it in the AMA today:
    We have plans for TR and SW changes further down the road. There were some changes, due to rocktober, that will be in M13 but nothing as big as a rework. (mostly bug fixes)

    We also want to make sure that every class gets some changes in as they need it. So, while TR and SW may be the focus of the upcoming changes, we're going to try and get something in for everyone.


    So do you disagree with the devs that the class needs more work?

    Mod13 fixes aren't magically making the SW a top DPS class, its a small set of improvements that mostly help one build find a confident place in end game content, boost the main dps build and sideline the third build behind the other 2 in all areas.

    We still very much need the class to have more dev time invested, implying otherwise is at best misleading.
  • werdandi#8366 werdandi Posts: 199Member Arc User
    edited February 21

    Are you lot really saying that the SW is all OK and the GWF damage disparity is also OK?


    ???
    I saw nobody here saying that SW is fine.
  • schietindebuxschietindebux Posts: 3,546Member Arc User
    edited February 21
    My SW is fine.... If I run beside a bad performing GWF
    My SW underperforms significant vs the average GWF player.
    My SW really sucks a lot when facing one of those few good performing GWF.

    This includes the fact that my focus damage is broken by dealing up to 500%+ effectiveness
  • dowapidowapi Posts: 2Member Arc User
    edited February 21
    well guys, is just 1 week before the update, i'm trying a lot of build but can't find a good dps one for the sw, some tips to give?
    and in that moment the some skill like dreadleft seems bugged too...

    P.s. all i'm trying is witouth a dps meter becouse the only one i got ( advance combat tracker ) seems to don't work for me, a problem with some file missing...
  • duckntrollduckntroll Posts: 86Member Arc User
    dowapi said:

    well guys, is just 1 week before the update, i'm trying a lot of build but can't find a good dps one for the sw, some tips to give?

    Read at least a part of this thread, you will then understand that SW underperform, so there is NO WAY to make a GOOD dps.
    However it doesn't mean there isn't a way to max SW dps, so good luck trying builds like us all :smile:

    dowapi said:

    and in that moment the some skill like dreadleft seems bugged too...

    It "seem" what?

    dowapi said:

    P.s. all i'm trying is witouth a dps meter becouse the only one i got ( advance combat tracker ) seems to don't work for me, a problem with some file missing...

    1. Debug ACT
    2. Find the output files, put them in Excel (other equivalent tools are meh)
      • filter & cut columns correctly
      • push all that in a pivot table
      • => you got your custom ACT ready for unlimited analysis
  • darkan#3756 darkan Posts: 137Member Arc User
    @balanced#2849 plss give answers give some love sw at least fix damage base from soulpuppet the changes made for damnation path are ridiculs compared others paths and SB are unperformed AoE powers SW still need pilar of power for rise damage NEED although try improve fury dont will enought can considerer lesser curse do more damage and have time expired some like 10 sec but dealt more thiks instead just 4
  • merhunesdagon1merhunesdagon1 Posts: 146Member Arc User
    edited February 21

    @gromovnipljesak#8234



    Maybe your SW friend is abusing the dps bug and/or your GWF needs some work, there's no way a properly built and played GWF will be almost matched by a SW in single target dps with legit setups.



    @merhunesdagon1



    The way I see it is, the changes to scaling weapon echantments will have no impact whatsoever on vorpal and dread because they merely are extra crit severity so should benefit all the ticks of DoT damage powers.

    @merhunesdagon1 if even dont know stats toon tom and GWF i ran many times agnist HR, GWF, CW and always if the diference betwen me and others dps was 2k IL they overcome dps and if even do 3x or 2x of my damage in trash runs if that traslate on dungeons more hardless like a TONG not ist hard imagine sw dealt around 10% or maybe 20% damage from GWF because no mater if you are 17k you will never close dps agnist GWF same IL and if even 2k dps below of you will overcome this fact suggest the most dps output dealt come from gear and companions and maybe 10% from your feats and powers and GWF have many powers selfbuff that contribute revelant form and funtional feats add to gear and companion to make dps

    We all understand SW underperforming vs other striker classes, but like others have pointed out on this forum, just highlighting some random number in the act log doesnt really say much of anything. to me it looks more like an FBI run and never in my time of playing I have been so outdmg in FBI on my SW, even running with 16k players or strikers close to my IL, even in buff parties. As far as that act log goes, We are low dps as SW, but GWF dealing close to 10x your dps is really really bad. u need to shelf SW and maybe build a support toon.
  • merhunesdagon1merhunesdagon1 Posts: 146Member Arc User
    edited February 21

    My SW is fine.... If I run beside a bad performing GWF

    My SW underperforms significant vs the average GWF player.

    My SW really sucks a lot when facing one of those few good performing GWF.



    This includes the fact that my focus damage is broken by dealing up to 500%+ effectiveness

    Lets not forget the majority of GWF in NW are terrible GWF. That doesnt negate the fact that SW in a bad place atm. that being said, i dont complain everytime I get outdmg. that kills the fun in the game imho. What really kills the fun though, is the devs inability to fix our dmg.
  • schietindebuxschietindebux Posts: 3,546Member Arc User
    edited February 21

    My SW is fine.... If I run beside a bad performing GWF

    My SW underperforms significant vs the average GWF player.

    My SW really sucks a lot when facing one of those few good performing GWF.



    This includes the fact that my focus damage is broken by dealing up to 500%+ effectiveness

    Lets not forget the majority of GWF in NW are terrible GWF. That doesnt negate the fact that SW in a bad place atm. that being said, i dont complain everytime I get outdmg. that kills the fun in the game imho. What really kills the fun though, is the devs inability to fix our dmg.
    Honestly, this class should be cured easily in no time, some small adjustments, some buffs and done.
    The fact that this takes ages, reading and writing walls of text, testing, again writing, testing, complaining about missing progress etc. in a never ending circle not to understand.
    I understand, that things take it´s time, but since the company has no time or power for big reworks , I ´d say make it short and simple.
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