@mentinmindmaker "* Why are people so stuck on 2 DC's? Looking at the spreadsheets above, you could just as easily ditch one of the DCs for a MoF and get more or less the same result" Something missing from the comparison are the buffs of the clerics. These can be excluded from this comparison because removing them does not change the end result due to how multiplication works. However, if you try to remove a cleric, you are sacrificing some 110% buffs from the oracle or 110% buffs from the anointed champion. I don't even care how much damage your master of flame does, they auto lose to the power of clerics. Clerics are currently god tier, and I doubt that will change much with module 13.
"For the daily Tong farmrun it seems to me this urge for 2 DCs seems a bit overdone - if you sacrifice 10% damage and get 1 minute longer runtime.. does it really matter? You spend that 1 minute looking for the extra DC anyways. I have seen quite fast and successful OP/DC/MoF/GF/GWF runs." I have run quite successful DC/OP/OP/GF tank/MoF runs... that doesn't make them optimal. Waiting for optimal sometimes isn't worthwhile, but if you can quickly gather the optimal party, the results are drastically better than random stuff. One cleric is not losing 10% damage, it's like losing half your damage. Clerics are overpowered and there is no way around that fact.
Everyone wants to play the meta. One important note is that sometimes people try to form meta groups to run 5+ times in a row. If you spend 10 minutes forming a non-meta group to run ToNG in 30 minutes, and then someone else spends 20 minutes to run ToNG in 15 minutes 5 times in a row, who won?
I don't think you can replace a mof with a dc... Honestly it depends on how you measure it. In terms of time completion or in terms of main dps damage. In the 2nd a dc is always better as the buffs and powershare do make a difference. Also the defensive (immunity to cc etc) help a group a lot too specially with 2nd and 3rd boss.
If its for one run and the dc can keep switching from do to ac, in time scale you can expect a 5 min longer run at best or 10-15m at worse and that depends on the quality of the players.
The point that some people make is optimal vs possible. Every group has a possibility to make it but not every group is optimal. Even in the optimal setup, a lot of times depends on the quality of the players. Otherwise every group that is 2 dc op (gf/cw/hr) and dps would do the run in 10m... something that is not true.
Which was the point I was trying to make too. If you are after the 10m runs by all means... but if you want a 20-35m run, several combos can do it. My issue is that people think it cant be done any other way which is simply wrong.
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
edited January 2018
If we consider the DpS GF vs MoF, DpS GF wins and it isn't even close. Tact vs MoF, there is room for debate but I honestly see no reason to say 1 beats the other since it really depends what your group wants. If you have 3 supports currently and 1 dps and are considering the last slot, if 1 of your supports can tank, realistically a 2nd dps will probably boost your clear speed more than adding a MoF or a tact GF, assuming the 2nd dps does the same dps as the main dps. This is the reason the conq gf gets taken, it has a 30% buff and does respectable damage. Anyhow, for future comparisons I recommend using this as it is easier to read then long walls of text that some people are posting.
Come mod 13, this entire discussion is moot anyhow. For the new trial you will probably want all 8 classes with an, "ideal" group comp looking something like this:
Group 1: DPS GF DO DC Templock GWF -Open Slot-
Group 2: AC DC Devo/Prot OP (not sure if extra power from HP beats bane in a 10 man group, not done math) MoF CW -Open Slot- -Open Slot-
Open slots in the first group can be filled by hr or tr, depending on who does more damage. The open slot in the 2nd group can be filled by whatever is missed out in the first group+possibly a tactician gf/extra dc/extra dps. This should give you the "optimal setup" for this dungeon. Notice that in the process, all classes are covered.
I will only disagree on the part that a tactician can do more damage then a cw at least to my experience as when I run on my gwf or SW and I get a gf I never see the damage output I see with a cw renegade. Buff wise they are comparable, but always depending on build and play style.
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mamalion1234Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,415Arc User
* Why are people so stuck on 2 DC's? Looking at the spreadsheets above, you could just as easily ditch one of the DCs for a MoF and get more or less the same result. The healing from two DCs is not really needed(and MoF heals too), so why not just grab a MoF rather than waiting forever for that 2nd(and often low IL) DC to pop up? MoFs usually also contribute more dps than a DC.
* Is it badly specced MoFs that has ruined the reputation of MoF? It is very easy to play a MoF without bringing the expected debuffs. Most CWs are basically Thaum dps specced and if they just make a MoF to get into Tong it could easily be set up badly without understanding the MoF role and mechanisms.
MoF checklist(ask your MoF about this.. if he does not answer properly, kick him): * Renegade tree with cap feat * SOD and CA loaded as class feats (which kills personal dps btw) These feats are the Smolder-based debuffs. * How does the MoF apply Smolder? The most universal way should be Fan the Flames on Tab, but that sacrifices some RoE debuff. Alternatively Smolder can be applied from dailies but that can be less usable on trash and harder to keep up 100% on bosses since recharging dailies takes some time. Smolder fades after 6 secs if not refreshed by Chill.
For the daily Tong farmrun it seems to me this urge for 2 DCs seems a bit overdone - if you sacrifice 10% damage and get 1 minute longer runtime.. does it really matter? You spend that 1 minute looking for the extra DC anyways. I have seen quite fast and successful OP/DC/MoF/GF/GWF runs.
I agree but some dungeon designs force you to play specific classes. Especially in tong you need a ac in big degree if you dont immune to cc classes ( gf-gwf). Who designed the partial paralysis on ras nsi or 2nd boss " like to have ac in party 24/7". That mechanism already should go away from this dungeon to allow every party combination to have that smooth run. With the bleeds that get cleanse i am ok since those can get cleanse from dc but also can get overheal from a sw or an op so we have here 3 classes can get the spot.
When " the hardest dungeon mechanics force you into "1 class-paragon"(ac dc)then is harder to see the viability of other classes.
In previous posts, circling arround debuffs I read something strange. Since when does a dread enchant debuff for 8% or 10% for the sake of all groupmember and combined 18%, obviously I missed that somehow ? I remember it once was a 4% debuff shared to the group, now it´s 18% using two of them ? I also read about frost 12% debuff as a 24/7 debuff, it´s up 50% normally, right or wrong?
@schietindebux Like a few other enchantments, different ranks stack, so that part should be obvious.
Perfect Dread has a 4% debuff hidden behind the goofy "reduce enemy defenses by 40%" text. At Pure it gains a second debuff when you crit which is also 4%. So at pure it has two 4% debuffs (8%) At Unparalleled the tooltip fails to mention that the debuff increased by 1% for both debuffs. Vorpal got the same adjustment, but Dread didn't get a tooltip update.
So using both Trans and Unparalleled in a group gives 18%
EDIT - slight correction, the stacking mechanics work slightly different than just "different ranks" the critical strike debuff stacks no matter what rank. The "reduce enemy defenses" debuff only stacks if the debuff is a different size from the rank it is stacking with. This means that Greater + Perfect is a 7% debuff, but Greater + Pure is only an 8% debuff. Trans + Unp is an 18% debuff because the base debuffs are 4% and 5% which stack, and then the crit debuffs always stack.
Believe me, I really would like for the CW, to be more effective, then a GF, bc my main is a CW. This being said, I have, among others, a DC and a GF alt.
While I did reasonably fast runs with my CW, the fastest runs I had were with me or another player running as conqueror GF. Tbh other players running conqueror is a double edged sword, bc conqueror GF is very much depending on gear, build and rotation. If the other player has the GF as a main character, decked out and knows how to play, he is better then I am. I wont argue with that. I have seen their dps. The thing is, that a conqueror GF has many buffs he needs to stack, to get this heavy burst. Shield warrior wrath, mark, WS, KC, ITF, temp HP, soul sight crystal. In an ideal world without lags and bosses pushing you away etc. you will have all of your own buffs up, you wont have forgotten to slot the +dmg against demons mark, the DO DC gave you the fire buff, the DCs have just finished their rotation and you can send Orcus with 3 griffon wrath hits to kingdom come. As it is, I/we screw this up 9/10 times and not all buffs are up. Even with me having a mediocre ping and mediocre skill, a chilled run with a decent group (14-16k and a decent build/skill) takes ca. 20 minutes.
I have seen all other combinations of support and DDs running with my DC and from my experience a good conqueror GF is preferable to a tactican GF and any other support or 2nd DD class (with a 2 DC OP, DD and X group).
On the other hand, in a lower tier IL MOF CW is preferable to a conqueror GF (near to useless), DO DC is preferable to a AC DC and so on.
One last word, this is all theory crafting. In game I have seen conqueror GFs of similar IL doing more then 150% of my GFs dmg or 1/3rd. I have seen (near to) useless tactican GFs, SS or MOF CWs, OPs and DCs of various ILs. Great and bad TRs and HRs. I cant say something definitive on SWs, bc there are not that many left, to build an opinion on this class. Skill, build, ping and gear matter, not just the class you are playing.
@designedbyrng#4319 But it´s allways only that 4% shared with the group , not 4/4% and only 5% not 5/5. Your debuff is 8% or 10%, your teammates get only buffed by 4% or 5%, at least that´s what it was once. No way to stack 18% debuff that way.
@schietindebux It has always been both debuffs effect everyone. Check the debuff list @michela123 made for module 11, you can see it effects both self and party members even back that far.
I will post 2 screenshots made yesterday just as a proof positive to what I claim and say this:
I run with bad GFs and good GFs, I run with bad MoF and good MoF and bad DC and good DC. Judging an entire class based on a limited experience I have from running with someone with a not optimal build and not good knowledge of the above classes, and having the assumption that because a run with a bad player that was xxxx class and the run was slow, therefore all runs with xxxx class (regardless of player) will be slow... well you know what they say about assumptions.
Both screens below, are runs was with 1 dc - 1 mof and you can judge yourselves by the times.
The 2 hr runs was hero accord (were testing drop rates) and they didn't want their names to show. Excellent players all of them.
Casual run with guild, we had 15-16k IL, I was on SW and the cw was MoF, (Under construction) single dc run. All very good players (except me, we established that). We didn't skip anything and actually we killed a few more mobs than we should have. We didn't even do any puzzles and skipped them all (extra delay time).
Needless to say no death count at all in either run.
... well you know what they say about assumptions.
I assume I do but I suppose I should ask...
Nothing personal against you my friend, but let's be honest. If I said, "I run with a dc that was bad and the run was slow, therefore dc is not good for dungeons..." you would petition for me to get banned :P
to be honest based on some other posts of yours, I wish more people would have your integrity.
@oria1 If you are still referring to what I said when I was talking about bad players, I think you still misunderstood my statement.
I did not say that anyone should bring one because people play things badly. I simply said they do. Consistency is almost always taken over true best. Look at trickster rogues. Some of the top speedruns were done using rogues. Are rogues desired in most groups? No. Why? Because very few rogues actually play correctly, and nobody knows what to tell them if they are doing something wrong, since nobody knows what they are even doing wrong.
People also like to use what they see in speedruns, so guardian fighters get a lot of hype even if the viewers don't understand that it isn't a tactician guardian.
When I mentioned bad players I never meant that as a definitive better or worse. I simply tried to give some insight into why one is taken more than another. Consistency is huge for LFGs.
If you are still referring to what I said when I was talking about bad players, I think you still misunderstood my statement.
I did not say that anyone should bring one because people play things badly. I simply said they do. Consistency is almost always taken over true best. Look at trickster rogues. Some of the top speedruns were done using rogues. Are rogues desired in most groups? No. Why? Because very few rogues actually play correctly, and nobody knows what to tell them if they are doing something wrong, since nobody knows what they are even doing wrong.
People also like to use what they see in speedruns, so guardian fighters get a lot of hype even if the viewers don't understand that it isn't a tactician guardian.
When I mentioned bad players I never meant that as a definitive better or worse. I simply tried to give some insight into why one is taken more than another. Consistency is huge for LFGs.
No it wasn't about that but more like for the general opinion from some posters that goes like this "I run with a bad dc, run was super slow... therefore all dc are bad and not to run dungeons with them" Replace DC with any given class depending on topic.
It has always been both debuffs effect everyone. Check the debuff list @michela123 made for module 11, you can see it effects both self and party members even back that far.
@schietindebux Dread has two debuffs in the list. Both of which apply to yourself and to allies. One is applied by the crit effect the other by the natural effect. Both are 4% both effect allies. Total of 8% for yourself and 8% for allies. Unparalleled is 10% for both you and your allies.
It has been tested on the live server. If you have an unparalleled and a transcendent, it is a total of 18%.
@schietindebux Dread has two debuffs in the list. Both of which apply to yourself and two allies. One is applied by the crit effect the other by the natural effect. Both are 4% both effect allies. Total of 8% for yourself and 8% for allies. Unparalleled is 10% for both you and your allies.
It has been tested on the live server. If you have an unparalleled and a transcendent, it is a total of 18%.
omg, why did I traded that Dread for that elven...
Comments
"* Why are people so stuck on 2 DC's?
Looking at the spreadsheets above, you could just as easily ditch one of the DCs for a MoF and get more or less the same result"
Something missing from the comparison are the buffs of the clerics. These can be excluded from this comparison because removing them does not change the end result due to how multiplication works. However, if you try to remove a cleric, you are sacrificing some 110% buffs from the oracle or 110% buffs from the anointed champion. I don't even care how much damage your master of flame does, they auto lose to the power of clerics. Clerics are currently god tier, and I doubt that will change much with module 13.
"For the daily Tong farmrun it seems to me this urge for 2 DCs seems a bit overdone - if you sacrifice 10% damage and get 1 minute longer runtime.. does it really matter? You spend that 1 minute looking for the extra DC anyways. I have seen quite fast and successful OP/DC/MoF/GF/GWF runs."
I have run quite successful DC/OP/OP/GF tank/MoF runs... that doesn't make them optimal. Waiting for optimal sometimes isn't worthwhile, but if you can quickly gather the optimal party, the results are drastically better than random stuff. One cleric is not losing 10% damage, it's like losing half your damage. Clerics are overpowered and there is no way around that fact.
Everyone wants to play the meta. One important note is that sometimes people try to form meta groups to run 5+ times in a row. If you spend 10 minutes forming a non-meta group to run ToNG in 30 minutes, and then someone else spends 20 minutes to run ToNG in 15 minutes 5 times in a row, who won?
If its for one run and the dc can keep switching from do to ac, in time scale you can expect a 5 min longer run at best or 10-15m at worse and that depends on the quality of the players.
The point that some people make is optimal vs possible. Every group has a possibility to make it but not every group is optimal. Even in the optimal setup, a lot of times depends on the quality of the players. Otherwise every group that is 2 dc op (gf/cw/hr) and dps would do the run in 10m... something that is not true.
Which was the point I was trying to make too. If you are after the 10m runs by all means... but if you want a 20-35m run, several combos can do it. My issue is that people think it cant be done any other way which is simply wrong.
Come mod 13, this entire discussion is moot anyhow. For the new trial you will probably want all 8 classes with an, "ideal" group comp looking something like this:
Group 1:
DPS GF
DO DC
Templock
GWF
-Open Slot-
Group 2:
AC DC
Devo/Prot OP (not sure if extra power from HP beats bane in a 10 man group, not done math)
MoF CW
-Open Slot-
-Open Slot-
Open slots in the first group can be filled by hr or tr, depending on who does more damage. The open slot in the 2nd group can be filled by whatever is missed out in the first group+possibly a tactician gf/extra dc/extra dps. This should give you the "optimal setup" for this dungeon. Notice that in the process, all classes are covered.
Especially in tong you need a ac in big degree if you dont immune to cc classes ( gf-gwf).
Who designed the partial paralysis on ras nsi or 2nd boss " like to have ac in party 24/7". That mechanism already should go away from this dungeon to allow every party combination to have that smooth run.
With the bleeds that get cleanse i am ok since those can get cleanse from dc but also can get overheal from a sw or an op so we have here 3 classes can get the spot.
When " the hardest dungeon mechanics force you into "1 class-paragon"(ac dc)then is harder to see the viability of other classes.
Since when does a dread enchant debuff for 8% or 10% for the sake of all groupmember and combined 18%, obviously I missed that somehow ?
I remember it once was a 4% debuff shared to the group, now it´s 18% using two of them ?
I also read about frost 12% debuff as a 24/7 debuff, it´s up 50% normally, right or wrong?
Like a few other enchantments, different ranks stack, so that part should be obvious.
Perfect Dread has a 4% debuff hidden behind the goofy "reduce enemy defenses by 40%" text.
At Pure it gains a second debuff when you crit which is also 4%. So at pure it has two 4% debuffs (8%)
At Unparalleled the tooltip fails to mention that the debuff increased by 1% for both debuffs. Vorpal got the same adjustment, but Dread didn't get a tooltip update.
So:
Greater: 3%
Perfect: 4%
Pure: 8%
Trans: 8%
Unp: 10%
So using both Trans and Unparalleled in a group gives 18%
EDIT - slight correction, the stacking mechanics work slightly different than just "different ranks" the critical strike debuff stacks no matter what rank. The "reduce enemy defenses" debuff only stacks if the debuff is a different size from the rank it is stacking with. This means that Greater + Perfect is a 7% debuff, but Greater + Pure is only an 8% debuff. Trans + Unp is an 18% debuff because the base debuffs are 4% and 5% which stack, and then the crit debuffs always stack.
While I did reasonably fast runs with my CW, the fastest runs I had were with me or another player running as conqueror GF. Tbh other players running conqueror is a double edged sword, bc conqueror GF is very much depending on gear, build and rotation. If the other player has the GF as a main character, decked out and knows how to play, he is better then I am. I wont argue with that. I have seen their dps. The thing is, that a conqueror GF has many buffs he needs to stack, to get this heavy burst. Shield warrior wrath, mark, WS, KC, ITF, temp HP, soul sight crystal. In an ideal world without lags and bosses pushing you away etc. you will have all of your own buffs up, you wont have forgotten to slot the +dmg against demons mark, the DO DC gave you the fire buff, the DCs have just finished their rotation and you can send Orcus with 3 griffon wrath hits to kingdom come. As it is, I/we screw this up 9/10 times and not all buffs are up. Even with me having a mediocre ping and mediocre skill, a chilled run with a decent group (14-16k and a decent build/skill) takes ca. 20 minutes.
I have seen all other combinations of support and DDs running with my DC and from my experience a good conqueror GF is preferable to a tactican GF and any other support or 2nd DD class (with a 2 DC OP, DD and X group).
On the other hand, in a lower tier IL MOF CW is preferable to a conqueror GF (near to useless), DO DC is preferable to a AC DC and so on.
One last word, this is all theory crafting. In game I have seen conqueror GFs of similar IL doing more then 150% of my GFs dmg or 1/3rd. I have seen (near to) useless tactican GFs, SS or MOF CWs, OPs and DCs of various ILs. Great and bad TRs and HRs. I cant say something definitive on SWs, bc there are not that many left, to build an opinion on this class. Skill, build, ping and gear matter, not just the class you are playing.
But it´s allways only that 4% shared with the group , not 4/4% and only 5% not 5/5.
Your debuff is 8% or 10%, your teammates get only buffed by 4% or 5%, at least that´s what it was once. No way to stack 18% debuff that way.
It has always been both debuffs effect everyone. Check the debuff list @michela123 made for module 11, you can see it effects both self and party members even back that far.
I run with bad GFs and good GFs, I run with bad MoF and good MoF and bad DC and good DC. Judging an entire class based on a limited experience I have from running with someone with a not optimal build and not good knowledge of the above classes, and having the assumption that because a run with a bad player that was xxxx class and the run was slow, therefore all runs with xxxx class (regardless of player) will be slow... well you know what they say about assumptions.
Both screens below, are runs was with 1 dc - 1 mof and you can judge yourselves by the times.
The 2 hr runs was hero accord (were testing drop rates) and they didn't want their names to show. Excellent players all of them.
Casual run with guild, we had 15-16k IL, I was on SW and the cw was MoF, (Under construction) single dc run. All very good players (except me, we established that). We didn't skip anything and actually we killed a few more mobs than we should have. We didn't even do any puzzles and skipped them all (extra delay time).
Needless to say no death count at all in either run.
"I run with a dc that was bad and the run was slow, therefore dc is not good for dungeons..."
you would petition for me to get banned :P
to be honest based on some other posts of yours, I wish more people would have your integrity.
If you are still referring to what I said when I was talking about bad players, I think you still misunderstood my statement.
I did not say that anyone should bring one because people play things badly. I simply said they do. Consistency is almost always taken over true best. Look at trickster rogues. Some of the top speedruns were done using rogues. Are rogues desired in most groups? No. Why? Because very few rogues actually play correctly, and nobody knows what to tell them if they are doing something wrong, since nobody knows what they are even doing wrong.
People also like to use what they see in speedruns, so guardian fighters get a lot of hype even if the viewers don't understand that it isn't a tactician guardian.
When I mentioned bad players I never meant that as a definitive better or worse. I simply tried to give some insight into why one is taken more than another. Consistency is huge for LFGs.
"I run with a bad dc, run was super slow... therefore all dc are bad and not to run dungeons with them"
Replace DC with any given class depending on topic.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1N8Y_AmqnnhOdaCT2Sg9e-OcC0m6q5nUJLfujZVsI1Z0/edit#gid=0
self+allies 4+4%
maybe it changed somehow, once it was a 4% debuff to your allies, not more.
You get a 8% in the sum, your allies get 4%. At least that´s how I understand that list.
Dread has two debuffs in the list. Both of which apply to yourself and to allies. One is applied by the crit effect the other by the natural effect. Both are 4% both effect allies. Total of 8% for yourself and 8% for allies. Unparalleled is 10% for both you and your allies.
It has been tested on the live server. If you have an unparalleled and a transcendent, it is a total of 18%.