To have a role in todays game the CW really need more damage.
So to make a start on solving the situation of "CW really need more damage", some polishes/changes might be needed in the content of "todays game". A solution could be implementing Difficulty Check (DC) to change how mobs get controlled, as a fellow member suggested above. Or separating control-focused and DPS-focused wizards into two classes, which would make the issue of "balance" much simpler and easier to handle, imo. I'm not against the concept of DPS-focused wizard at all, and would definitely create one when it is implemented.
Not to put words in someone else's mouth, the reason CW need more dps is because they have no control ability. They don't really need dps, they need to, you know, control and even control bosses a bit, even if its just adding slowdown or restricting their movement.
Or just remove the class and replace it with something else. Its about as bad as the Ranger not really being useful using a bow, its ridiculous.
It is when most players that play the class refuse to do something as simple as "git gud".
But the thing is, there are far more good CWs (not really as good as Freedom 'cause logic) than there are bad ones, and the bad ones are the ones to complain, the good ones are silent because they're happy with how they're performing.
It is when most players that play the class refuse to do something as simple as "git gud".
But the thing is, there are far more good CWs (not really as good as Freedom 'cause logic) than there are bad ones, and the bad ones are the ones to complain, the good ones are silent because they're happy with how they're performing.
That was the general idea I getting at: that CW is fine and the poor players need to git gud.
I've seen way too many people/threads claiming that CW needs buffs and it is impossible to DPS, and that they deserve moar DPS because they don't have easymodo rotation.
So, forgive me if my perception of the number of poor CW players there are is inflated.
It is when most players that play the class refuse to do something as simple as "git gud".
But the thing is, there are far more good CWs (not really as good as Freedom 'cause logic) than there are bad ones, and the bad ones are the ones to complain, the good ones are silent because they're happy with how they're performing.
Well my Wizard certainly isn't a bad one - I also don't think the author of this thread has a bad one either. I certainly identified in an much earlier post that Control Wizard's can be good at causing damage; but equally identified they are no where close to GWF or Warlock especially with their Healing powers depending on Paragon / skill choices. Wizard's control or control resist powers are greatly neglected for some time!
As someone previously identified most players Control or Control Resist is barely over 1000 if at all; there's only a few artifacts that have control or control resist at max 600 if Mythic. You rarely see gear with those attributes and certainly no enchantments or runestones. As others pointed out on several occasions Many end game mini bosses or bosses in dungeons or trials also have high degress of control resist & control which only further limits the control aspect of a control wizard.
That surely has to be an oversight by someone in the team since the Control Resistance probably got merged with the entirety of the "Resistance" tree for an Elite mob.
The way that the Control bonus works is nowhere nearly good to actually be useful, even when it exceeds 100% of a bonus. Even at those numbers and controlling strength you'd swipe only a fraction of a sec in terms of the control.
Elite mobs are immune to pretty much all controlling options, thus providing an oversight for wizards including other classes, too.
Daze, for instance, with the TR.
Playing with the control back in the days was wholly tactical and more intense. Nowadays it's just run forward, cast buffs/debuffs and hold left-mouse button doing billions of damage.
"Gameplay".
Wizards would offer a tactical advantage (even the steal time on tab offers combat advantage regardless of the position).
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
It is when most players that play the class refuse to do something as simple as "git gud".
But the thing is, there are far more good CWs (not really as good as Freedom 'cause logic) than there are bad ones, and the bad ones are the ones to complain, the good ones are silent because they're happy with how they're performing.
That was the general idea I getting at: that CW is fine and the poor players need to git gud.
I've seen way too many people/threads claiming that CW needs buffs and it is impossible to DPS, and that they deserve moar DPS because they don't have easymodo rotation.
So, forgive me if my perception of the number of poor CW players there are is inflated.
The thing is, way too many CWs think that the only thing they have to do is jump in between enemies, use icy terrain and that's it. While CWs do a LOT of the damage if they position themselves correctly.
And besides, I can beat 16k GWFs pretty much all the time, but every now and again I see a CW completely destroying me in DPS, with a lower item level. So either those CWs are god tier and have some sort of a backend access in which they just cranked their base damage up to 11 thousand, or everyone else needs to, in your words, "git gud".
CW is a harder class to play than lets say GWF, no HAMSTER wonder average GWF will beat a CW in DPS. But if CWs were generally all around worse, how come there are CWs that kick GWF and HR HAMSTER up and down the pavement? There's really something inconsistent about this tale of underperforming CWs.
Solid, high-performing players know how to maximize the damage/buff/aggro of their class in various situations
Super-High DPS players typically do not run the same skills in the same rotations all the time, and they will usually switch loadouts to optimize the types of enemies they are about to face (eg: AoE loadout for trash mobs, ST loadout for Bosses) but they also learn the dungeons so they know exactly what skills/loadout to take into each fight
This type of player understands other classes and how they might benefit their own personal DPS via buffs/debuffs, and they position themselves and time their own skill usage to take full advantage of buffs
They also optimize their own rotations around animation cancelling and actually use the feats, boons, gear bonuses and various synergies to full effect, all of the time
It takes a lot of work to be "gud," and a low percentage of players of any class are willing to put that work into their output
Most of the players in Neverwinter, even at higher item levels, copy someone else's build and use one rotation and the same loadout for every situation, position themselves incorrectly, stand in the red, invest in the wrong stats, ignore synergies, rarely use their artifacts, use the wrong artifacts, forget to use their mount attacks if they have them, and generally just don't play well... then some of those low-performing players whine and cry that their class is bad and other classes need nerfs
None of this has anything to do with the lack of viability of Control (for players, anyway) in the game as it exists now, but it has already been stated that Cryptic seems to have decided that the only proper form of play in their game should be max DPS/Buff for every class, so that's what we have to deal with
I think @kangkeok is on to something. Control resistance has always been a little odd and counter to how D&D actually works. I think a better way to approach it is thinking about it like a saving throw, which means you're either fully effected by the control or not at all. This could be done by replacing Control Resistance (CR) with Control Deflect (CD).
CD would be a % chance to completely avoid a control effect, and stronger enemies would have better CD (aka saving throws). Minions would have little-to-no CD, scaling up to bosses which would have really high CD (maybe 95%), but it would then be possible to actually nail them with something. With so much stuff being thrown around in a boss fight, they'd still get caught by a control effect from time to time. You could still pair CD with a scaled down CR, maxing out at maybe a 1/2 severity reduction for bosses.
Where it could get greasy is making exceptions for different classes and powers. CW Chill Stacks come to mind immediately as something that would need to bypass CD because it's a fundamental part of CW damage, but getting Frozen could still be deflected. How to treat ongoing control effects like Smoke Bomb is another consideration. I guess each tick could be checked for CD? Others may have better insights.
I also wonder if this would have been a better solution to control effects in PvP. I could imagine giving players flagged for PvP a static 30-50% PvP Control Deflect stat against other players that would be checked after their normal deflect chance.
This whole idea would be a pretty radical balance change though, and may take some doing to work out the kinks. I think it could be a really great change though and worth the effort / growing pains.
Currently the game has 3 types characters: Tanks, buffers and dps.
CW MoF spec is at best a mediocre debuffer, and CW dps spec isn't even on the same dps page as GWF/HR/probably revamped SW.
So basically the CW is fairly useless at the moment.
CW had is big days back in mod 1-5, when relative mob damage was so high that freezing mattered, and it had real value to knockback mobs into the void. Then things got nerfed and nerfed and nerfed.
That is to some extent the case of all controllers on mmorpg's. Abilities that takes mobs out of the fight are generally very hard to balance around. Either the controllers are so powerful and useful that you MUST have them to survive a fight, making non-controller groups not an option. Or they are so weak and useless they are a wasted group spot. Or you can do well without a controller, but having a controller in group will completely trivialize most content. To find something in the middle is very hard.
Today freezing trash is a nice convenience, but does to a very small extent contribute to the groups results.
To have a role in todays game the CW really need more damage.
My 14k IL SS CW can run around chult with no problems at all and has been since it opened and I was under 12K.
I can solo T3 HEs in the Stronghold and normally do either top or second top damage in epic dungeons..
I am happy with what I can do and the damage I can hand out but... but unless you are 16k or above, and even then another CW I know of is 16k and he struggles, it is almost impossible to get a TONG run unless it's with guildies.. because the buffing (MOF) is not good enough and DPS (SS) is not good enough for the types of groups people want to run.
CWs get their damage from group mobs and the control. No-one wants that for the mainly solo bosses in TONG as other classes can handle the speradic mobs that show up.
I don't think any of the authors are saying Wizard's are bad at DPS they can in fact be good - they just don't do nearly as Great as GWF or Warlocks even though both have Encounters that can Heal and in case of Warlocks depending on Paragon and Feat Path can do a very noticeable amount of Healing.
Wizard's given often how squishy they are most of the time generally don't gain enough from control or control resist. As I identified above there is only a few Artifacts with Control or Control Resist as a value and often only at 600 max if Mythic; there is also little gear, enchantments, or runestones that can help improve those abilities for either a Wizard with Augment / Bonding not to mention Controller Companions either.
It is when most players that play the class refuse to do something as simple as "git gud".
Urban Dic: "1. A intentionally misspelled phrase meaning "get good." Generally used to pock fun at and mock inexperienced players in a particular video game."
That is just a BS statement. Just because someone points out a weakness in a mechanic does not mean they do not know how to play properly or equip correctly.
Take the same amount of time, money, etc put into any of the classes and the CW comes out pretty HAMSTER poor in the end compared. And the original point of this thread is that the Control Wizard can't control ANYTHING as past mid level just about everything is control immune. So why not just remove it from the game and put in a Elemental Wizard and give it DSP from the start because that is really what it is anyway and it seems like tank, buffer, and DSP is all anyone wants in a end game group anyway.
But, see, even with that mechanic you'd still get the concept of improbability that nobody would focus on.
If you focus on optimizing a character around it, you'd not only lose a lot on other points of interest but in fact would have to deal with something that works similarly to the Renegade's feat Chaos Magic. The effect of randomness would make it kind of void in the key moments where you'd need to control or that the gameplay itself depends upon your control in approx 2-3 sec. Having a randomness define whether you can control or not would make you either randomly useful or completely useless.
For Damage that randomness can work. You'd be like fighting, fighting and then "lel that thing proc'd finally" (like the people who use Elven Ferocity hah)
For the Control it needs to be very concise and specific and the higher-tier mobs having more saving throws to it doesn't seem like a very good idea.
You can experience something similar when fighting the WoD's demon encounter (that big demon that comes out can be frozen from time to time, I think it's a bug), but you can't really calculate properly with a CW for instance with such a mechanic even if it could give you some advantage for instance.
There's more to it. Some player are dependent upon receiving damage in order to proc certain items/spells/features, and having a monster frozen to some degree would be a lack of the synergy.
A Control is definitely needed, but it is needed to a point where it pays off more than the actual DPS build for a wizard. Or having the mid-ground where damage is halved, but control is increased (similarly to how Oppressor works).
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
It is when most players that play the class refuse to do something as simple as "git gud".
But the thing is, there are far more good CWs (not really as good as Freedom 'cause logic) than there are bad ones, and the bad ones are the ones to complain, the good ones are silent because they're happy with how they're performing.
Eh, "Complain" - a prime choice of the bad players. It would be nice if things were that crne i bele, huh?
Of course that people will complain about something being wrong or unfair on the forum. Especially present in a variety of MMOs. It's a necessity, actually, to offer criticism since that allows more room for the growth.
There are few lackings in the mechanics of the Elite mobs which undermine the Class potential to use certain spells.
I use one loadout for fighting lower tier mobs and another loadout for fighting dungeon-level mobs since freezing them simply doesn't pay and thanks to that I lose a fair portion of my build's damage potential simply because I can't freeze the enemy (or use a variety of skills on them like shard of avalanche or entangling force or similar). It's a workaround, but it's nowhere near good for the concept of the gameplay I had in mind or that I can work with in the rest of the 90% of the game itself.
If I can use Entangling Force to force choke mobs in lvl 1-60 i should be able to do the same to the elite enemies. AT LEAST on the spell mastery if nothing else.
OnTopic : And here is the proposition - Make the Spell Mastery spells inflict controlling options on the elite mobs. That way not all controlling options would work. I understand that this would be a heck of a job to do, but I firmly believe that this is the best possible middle-ground in terms of the controlling options on the elite mobs.
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
IMO controllers became obsolete when the preferred mechanism for boss fights went from having adds to having insane amounts of HP. That change meant that controllers are not only unnecessary, they represent a severe opportunity cost to any party. Parties running epic trials or epic dungeons need DPS, DPS, and more DPS. If giving your CW a cold drink causes a random blizzard to strike somewhere on Faerun, it doesn't matter. No one needs CC when there is nothing to control.
Where does this leave my Oppressor CW? She has exactly two places where she can shine: Tiamat and Stronghold Marauders. If the epic dungeons had been left alone instead of being turned into their "New and improved! Now with 100x the HP!" versions she would be useful there as well, but sadly those days are gone.
Guys, really. If it ain't broke, don't fix it!
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1
greywyndMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 7,158Arc User
IMO controllers became obsolete when the preferred mechanism for boss fights went from having adds to having insane amounts of HP. That change meant that controllers are not only unnecessary, they represent a severe opportunity cost to any party. Parties running epic trials or epic dungeons need DPS, DPS, and more DPS. If giving your CW a cold drink causes a random blizzard to strike somewhere on Faerun, it doesn't matter. No one needs CC when there is nothing to control.
Where does this leave my Oppressor CW? She has exactly two places where she can shine: Tiamat and Stronghold Marauders. If the epic dungeons had been left alone instead of being turned into their "New and improved! Now with 100x the HP!" versions she would be useful there as well, but sadly those days are gone.
Guys, really. If it ain't broke, don't fix it!
...loadouts...
I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
IMO controllers became obsolete when the preferred mechanism for boss fights went from having adds to having insane amounts of HP. That change meant that controllers are not only unnecessary, they represent a severe opportunity cost to any party. Parties running epic trials or epic dungeons need DPS, DPS, and more DPS. If giving your CW a cold drink causes a random blizzard to strike somewhere on Faerun, it doesn't matter. No one needs CC when there is nothing to control.
Where does this leave my Oppressor CW? She has exactly two places where she can shine: Tiamat and Stronghold Marauders. If the epic dungeons had been left alone instead of being turned into their "New and improved! Now with 100x the HP!" versions she would be useful there as well, but sadly those days are gone.
Guys, really. If it ain't broke, don't fix it!
Remember what control is about however; and Freezing Powers or Chill mechanisms last longer! So that in turns represents more damage to enemy who enter the AoE. This is can be true as well for Lightning Powers that ARC into nearby enemy or daze or true for how long a Hunter's vines or roots remain. Remember while most control or AoE powers do limit movement some can also do damage so having them around longer can also increase damage.
So while I generally agree with your assessment: Wizard's, not to mention Hunter Rangers, Guardian Fighters, and Warlocks can also benefit by introducing new Enchantments/Runestones with values of control or control resistance!
Perhaps it's time for a new Cruel style enchantment that also offers a benefit of Power & Armor Pen / Defense & Lifesteal paired with either a control / control resist depending if offense or defensive slot?
But, see, even with that mechanic you'd still get the concept of improbability that nobody would focus on.
If you focus on optimizing a character around it, you'd not only lose a lot on other points of interest but in fact would have to deal with something that works similarly to the Renegade's feat Chaos Magic. The effect of randomness would make it kind of void in the key moments where you'd need to control or that the gameplay itself depends upon your control in approx 2-3 sec. Having a randomness define whether you can control or not would make you either randomly useful or completely useless.
For Damage that randomness can work. You'd be like fighting, fighting and then "lel that thing proc'd finally" (like the people who use Elven Ferocity hah)
For the Control it needs to be very concise and specific and the higher-tier mobs having more saving throws to it doesn't seem like a very good idea.
You can experience something similar when fighting the WoD's demon encounter (that big demon that comes out can be frozen from time to time, I think it's a bug), but you can't really calculate properly with a CW for instance with such a mechanic even if it could give you some advantage for instance.
There's more to it. Some player are dependent upon receiving damage in order to proc certain items/spells/features, and having a monster frozen to some degree would be a lack of the synergy.
A Control is definitely needed, but it is needed to a point where it pays off more than the actual DPS build for a wizard. Or having the mid-ground where damage is halved, but control is increased (similarly to how Oppressor works).
That's a valid difference of opinion. My thinking with bosses is that they've never been controllable anyways, so moving to a Control Deflect model would actually make it possible to allow bosses to be controlled occasionally, but not allow them to be locked down completely. A return of boss adds that need to be controlled would make it more relevant. For other enemies, most control powers, even for Oppressors, only effect enemies for a blip, then gone. This method would allow controlling some or most mobs fully and with extreme prejudice like in the good old days, but at the cost of usually not being able to control all of them. It seems like an appealing tradeoff to me.
I think I'm coming from a slightly different perspective on this too. I've played both videogames and table top D&D forever, and some of the mechanical approaches can be rather different between the two. D&D has a lot of "all-or-nothing" / "hit-or-miss" mechanics. Videogames frequently work on a "always works, but to varying degrees" model. With "all-or-nothing" spell effects, you win some, you lose some, but when it works it REALLY WORKS! I really like that. Sure, you might waste a spell and accomplish nothing, but you might also single-handedly win the whole battle. "Always works, but to varying degrees" works ok for pure damage effects/attacks, but when you try to model more interesting and powerful effects, like control, it inevitably devolves into "always works, but poorly" which is where we've gotten now.
I'm also a sucker for D&D videogames actually working like D&D.
But, see, even with that mechanic you'd still get the concept of improbability that nobody would focus on.
If you focus on optimizing a character around it, you'd not only lose a lot on other points of interest but in fact would have to deal with something that works similarly to the Renegade's feat Chaos Magic. The effect of randomness would make it kind of void in the key moments where you'd need to control or that the gameplay itself depends upon your control in approx 2-3 sec. Having a randomness define whether you can control or not would make you either randomly useful or completely useless.
For Damage that randomness can work. You'd be like fighting, fighting and then "lel that thing proc'd finally" (like the people who use Elven Ferocity hah)
For the Control it needs to be very concise and specific and the higher-tier mobs having more saving throws to it doesn't seem like a very good idea.
You can experience something similar when fighting the WoD's demon encounter (that big demon that comes out can be frozen from time to time, I think it's a bug), but you can't really calculate properly with a CW for instance with such a mechanic even if it could give you some advantage for instance.
There's more to it. Some player are dependent upon receiving damage in order to proc certain items/spells/features, and having a monster frozen to some degree would be a lack of the synergy.
A Control is definitely needed, but it is needed to a point where it pays off more than the actual DPS build for a wizard. Or having the mid-ground where damage is halved, but control is increased (similarly to how Oppressor works).
That's a valid difference of opinion. My thinking with bosses is that they've never been controllable anyways, so moving to a Control Deflect model would actually make it possible to allow bosses to be controlled occasionally, but not allow them to be locked down completely. A return of boss adds that need to be controlled would make it more relevant. For other enemies, most control powers, even for Oppressors, only effect enemies for a blip, then gone. This method would allow controlling some or most mobs fully and with extreme prejudice like in the good old days, but at the cost of usually not being able to control all of them. It seems like an appealing tradeoff to me.
I think I'm coming from a slightly different perspective on this too. I've played both videogames and table top D&D forever, and some of the mechanical approaches can be rather different between the two. D&D has a lot of "all-or-nothing" / "hit-or-miss" mechanics. Videogames frequently work on a "always works, but to varying degrees" model. With "all-or-nothing" spell effects, you win some, you lose some, but when it works it REALLY WORKS! I really like that. Sure, you might waste a spell and accomplish nothing, but you might also single-handedly win the whole battle. "Always works, but to varying degrees" works ok for pure damage effects/attacks, but when you try to model more interesting and powerful effects, like control, it inevitably devolves into "always works, but poorly" which is where we've gotten now.
I'm also a sucker for D&D videogames actually working like D&D.
I agree with you and i see from where you're coming from. I completely respect your point of view and I also enjoy the DnD-esque feel to it. But it's a f2p mmo and it has to earn through the micro transactions of various sorts. I find it to be equally interesting to play more DnD-like. However, I think that implementing something that you proposed would prove to be equally redundant at the current state of the meta due to the way how the content is made and how the dps/buff/debuff orientation is promoting the current state of the game. It's not that your idea is wrong, not that my idea is wrong, but the state of the game would just flow around any of our proposed implementations, if they'd get to a point of existence to begin with.
You know, I keep asking for some control from the point of changing the way elite mobs work. I'm completely aware that anything implemented would be a sword with two sharp edges and you'd have to lose something in order to gain something. Control would certainly bring problems into the game. That's pretty much all. I'm unfortunately aware that...well... a lot of time passed since it's original conceptualization of the controlling options and MOD3 changed things forever. There's just too much time between the periods and less refining of the controlling options to a point where it's very forgotten and it would be a big question whether it'd be implemented just as good as it was back in MOD1-2. The Control options have been redundant for a long time for the CW class, aside from the occasional freezing.
Even back when they were somewhat good you'd get a myriad of DCs using Sunburst or GF's jumping into the mobs, splashing them around, or even now OPs jumping into the mobs spreading them out. The other classess controlling options are not at all working in the synergy with the controlling options of the groups like TR/CW/HR. I constantly have to tell people "don't spread the mobs" in literally every single mod that I've played. And there are people who enjoy doing exactly that. Spreading the mobs around.
It is annoying, to say the least.
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
I honestly cannot think of anything more to say that wouldn't be perceived as incredibly arrogant and insulting
I showed you video where GWF can do 10 mil. dps from single swing of sure strike, i showed you video where GF is hitting like truck 40mil. of dps from griffons not to mentions of 100/200mil. TR's SoD and i showed you one of few or maybe only video from CW making (haha) maybe 3-8 mln. of dps from our the most powerful single target - ice knife, and you offer nothing but " CW DPS is fine". Even Bubladins are laughing from CWs because they can do more than 20mil. Divine Judgement .Do you know why there are no videos from YT with CW as a main dps on TONG? Because DPS CW is so nerfed that most of them just switch characters or they went for "MoF Debufer". You have no arguments here to discussion besides " CW dps is fine" please don't make me laugh. CW is underpowered class in terms of DPS, that's why for example- critical storm spell is first step to making his DPS at least in pair with other classes.
I showed you video where GWF can do 10 mil. dps from single swing of sure strike, i showed you video where GF is hitting like truck 40mil. of dps from griffons not to mentions of 100/200mil. TR's SoD and i showed you one of few or maybe only video from CW making (haha) maybe 3-8 mln. of dps from our the most powerful single target - ice knife, and you offer nothing but " CW DPS is fine". Even Bubladins are laughing from CWs because they can do more than 20mil. Divine Judgement .Do you know why there are no videos from YT with CW as a main dps on TONG? Because DPS CW is so nerfed that most of them just switch characters or they went for "MoF Debufer". You have no arguments here to discussion besides " CW dps is fine" please don't make me laugh. CW is underpowered class in terms of DPS, that's why for example- critical storm spell is first step to making his DPS at least in pair with other classes.
Hello. The CW's Storm Spell ability finally critting is one of the best additions to the overall Control Wizard Spellstorm paragon. This will prove extremely useful on the AoE magnitude.
As for perpetuating or proving anything to a person who knows nothing about the CW's I suggest to simply give it a break and disregard anything that maliciously comes from the same person who proved many times not to possess the optimal knowledge of the game's intrinsic values in the overall sense
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
Youtube videos prove nothing, and that you think they might only makes you look foolish
Those are subjective and display nothing but performances of 3 individuals without regard to their skill, gear, builds.... anything really
At least c1k4ml3kc3 is arguing that the weapon damage for CW is lower than the weapon damage for GWF, which is objective (if flawed in my opinion, but I respect the point of view)
He does have a nasty habit of taking disagreement personally and being a bit mean about it, which doesn't really help sway opinion either
I am not the only one saying that they either have or know a CW that is doing just fine in the DPS race, leading to the conclusion that if some CWs are not having problems and you are, the problem may well be you in some way
This thread was about Controllers, anyway, not DPS, and I fully support the idea by taking the option of CC builds out of the game (among other bad ideas) Cryptic has forced this single playstyle DPS only race on us to the overall detriment of the game
I don't feel like jumping in the DPS fight here, but I will mention some general patterns I see.
I see a lot of assertions or dismissiveness of class disparity based on judging BiS performance, but a lot less based on more realistic gear levels, and not just here, but universally. A $5,000 character in the hands of an obsessed perfectionist can often do things that make everyone else's head spin, either causing them to cry for nerfs or say "see, no problems here!" Both are missing the point. Most people are not that, and will never be. I don't care if a handful of people can break the speed of light. I care if one 12-14k class in the hands of a decent player can compete with a different 12-14k class in the hands of another decent player. Everything else is just irrelevant epeen measuring/envy.
And with those standards in mind, the real class disparities are pretty obvious just by looking at the lfg requests if nothing else.
Which is why all class balance arguments are dead on arrival: Eventually we realize the "all of us" demanding class balance includes those that want equality in output regardless of item level, gear, skill, effort, build and experience
Nobody can provide that equal of a playing field, and I don't really think anybody would really enjoy playing a cookie cutter
The LFG group demands are mindless and I have no idea why anyone would choose to play that way
As has been said many times in these threads, there are plenty of examples of widely varying yet ultimately successful party compositions for all content... The zombies insisting on the meta in a LFG pug are only hoping for as close to a guaranteed speed run as they can get so they can farm dungeons
There are only 5 people in every party, so even if classes were somehow magically balanced to make everyone equal, there would still be math that showed the meta should be 5 particular classes with specific builds and the other 3 classes would complain that nobody will let them play, and the answer would still be to make friends and form your own groups
The talk of class balance in PvE is just senseless... Too many useless and broken feats and powers exist to worry about everyone being able to perform equally when the goal in PvE is to finish the dungeon... THERE IS NO SCORE
Again, the point of this thread was to talk about CC builds not being viable, not DPS builds being slightly more or less powerful than one another
The only builds that matter in this game are max DPS and buffing/debuffing to provide more DPS because the content being produced forces that monolithic mentality on us without regard for the fact that this game was intended to allow for many different and equally viable playstyles
If the content allowed for controlling, other forms of buffing and even allowed DoT damage to have a place, maybe we would be less whiny about balance, which is nothing more than some classes being slightly worse at providing the one thing this game requires
That said, balance could only be a thing when all else is equal, meaning top gear score and identical mounts, pets and BiS gear... to demand balanced DPS at varying levels of anything else is just unrealistic
Which is why all class balance arguments are dead on arrival: Eventually we realize the "all of us" demanding class balance includes those that want equality in output regardless of item level, gear, skill, effort, build and experience
I agree with most of what you said except the above. I don't think anyone is arguing that the classes should be balances or equal irregardless of gear, level, etc. In fact the original thread was not really speaking of "balance" but of usefulness in a party. That in a group of 5 a CW would be desired, heck, even requested to join. Instead end game CW builds focus on just delivering more DSP or buffing more DSP and there are better classes with more armor to do that.
That surely has to be an oversight by someone in the team since the Control Resistance probably got merged with the entirety of the "Resistance" tree for an Elite mob.
The way that the Control bonus works is nowhere nearly good to actually be useful, even when it exceeds 100% of a bonus. Even at those numbers and controlling strength you'd swipe only a fraction of a sec in terms of the control.
Elite mobs are immune to pretty much all controlling options, thus providing an oversight for wizards including other classes, too.
Daze, for instance, with the TR.
Playing with the control back in the days was wholly tactical and more intense. Nowadays it's just run forward, cast buffs/debuffs and hold left-mouse button doing billions of damage.
"Gameplay".
Wizards would offer a tactical advantage (even the steal time on tab offers combat advantage regardless of the position).
It's possible to control elite mobs -- I'm speaking of only those elites that have a pointed star around their level number and also have thick HP bars like the ones in large HE's and dungeons. My CW can do it, but it takes a real commitment to being a controller. It means using the Valindra set, making sure that all other artifacts give control bonus, choosing companions that all boost control bonus, and making sure to always choose boons that boost it. When I added up all the bonuses for my CW the total reaches 118%. At that level, all of her spells work even on elite mobs, even Arcane Singularity.
There is a downside, though, at least with one power. With that much control strength, when you use Arcane Singularity against run-of-the-mill open-world enemies (no thick HP bars), it tends to launch them in every direction.
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Or just remove the class and replace it with something else. Its about as bad as the Ranger not really being useful using a bow, its ridiculous.
I've seen way too many people/threads claiming that CW needs buffs and it is impossible to DPS, and that they deserve moar DPS because they don't have easymodo rotation.
So, forgive me if my perception of the number of poor CW players there are is inflated.
As someone previously identified most players Control or Control Resist is barely over 1000 if at all; there's only a few artifacts that have control or control resist at max 600 if Mythic. You rarely see gear with those attributes and certainly no enchantments or runestones. As others pointed out on several occasions Many end game mini bosses or bosses in dungeons or trials also have high degress of control resist & control which only further limits the control aspect of a control wizard.
The way that the Control bonus works is nowhere nearly good to actually be useful, even when it exceeds 100% of a bonus. Even at those numbers and controlling strength you'd swipe only a fraction of a sec in terms of the control.
Elite mobs are immune to pretty much all controlling options, thus providing an oversight for wizards including other classes, too.
Daze, for instance, with the TR.
Playing with the control back in the days was wholly tactical and more intense. Nowadays it's just run forward, cast buffs/debuffs and hold left-mouse button doing billions of damage.
"Gameplay".
Wizards would offer a tactical advantage (even the steal time on tab offers combat advantage regardless of the position).
And besides, I can beat 16k GWFs pretty much all the time, but every now and again I see a CW completely destroying me in DPS, with a lower item level. So either those CWs are god tier and have some sort of a backend access in which they just cranked their base damage up to 11 thousand, or everyone else needs to, in your words, "git gud".
CW is a harder class to play than lets say GWF, no HAMSTER wonder average GWF will beat a CW in DPS. But if CWs were generally all around worse, how come there are CWs that kick GWF and HR HAMSTER up and down the pavement? There's really something inconsistent about this tale of underperforming CWs.
Super-High DPS players typically do not run the same skills in the same rotations all the time, and they will usually switch loadouts to optimize the types of enemies they are about to face (eg: AoE loadout for trash mobs, ST loadout for Bosses) but they also learn the dungeons so they know exactly what skills/loadout to take into each fight
This type of player understands other classes and how they might benefit their own personal DPS via buffs/debuffs, and they position themselves and time their own skill usage to take full advantage of buffs
They also optimize their own rotations around animation cancelling and actually use the feats, boons, gear bonuses and various synergies to full effect, all of the time
It takes a lot of work to be "gud," and a low percentage of players of any class are willing to put that work into their output
Most of the players in Neverwinter, even at higher item levels, copy someone else's build and use one rotation and the same loadout for every situation, position themselves incorrectly, stand in the red, invest in the wrong stats, ignore synergies, rarely use their artifacts, use the wrong artifacts, forget to use their mount attacks if they have them, and generally just don't play well... then some of those low-performing players whine and cry that their class is bad and other classes need nerfs
None of this has anything to do with the lack of viability of Control (for players, anyway) in the game as it exists now, but it has already been stated that Cryptic seems to have decided that the only proper form of play in their game should be max DPS/Buff for every class, so that's what we have to deal with
CD would be a % chance to completely avoid a control effect, and stronger enemies would have better CD (aka saving throws). Minions would have little-to-no CD, scaling up to bosses which would have really high CD (maybe 95%), but it would then be possible to actually nail them with something. With so much stuff being thrown around in a boss fight, they'd still get caught by a control effect from time to time. You could still pair CD with a scaled down CR, maxing out at maybe a 1/2 severity reduction for bosses.
Where it could get greasy is making exceptions for different classes and powers. CW Chill Stacks come to mind immediately as something that would need to bypass CD because it's a fundamental part of CW damage, but getting Frozen could still be deflected. How to treat ongoing control effects like Smoke Bomb is another consideration. I guess each tick could be checked for CD? Others may have better insights.
I also wonder if this would have been a better solution to control effects in PvP. I could imagine giving players flagged for PvP a static 30-50% PvP Control Deflect stat against other players that would be checked after their normal deflect chance.
This whole idea would be a pretty radical balance change though, and may take some doing to work out the kinks. I think it could be a really great change though and worth the effort / growing pains.
I can solo T3 HEs in the Stronghold and normally do either top or second top damage in epic dungeons..
I am happy with what I can do and the damage I can hand out but... but unless you are 16k or above, and even then another CW I know of is 16k and he struggles, it is almost impossible to get a TONG run unless it's with guildies.. because the buffing (MOF) is not good enough and DPS (SS) is not good enough for the types of groups people want to run.
CWs get their damage from group mobs and the control. No-one wants that for the mainly solo bosses in TONG as other classes can handle the speradic mobs that show up.
Wizard's given often how squishy they are most of the time generally don't gain enough from control or control resist. As I identified above there is only a few Artifacts with Control or Control Resist as a value and often only at 600 max if Mythic; there is also little gear, enchantments, or runestones that can help improve those abilities for either a Wizard with Augment / Bonding not to mention Controller Companions either.
That is just a BS statement. Just because someone points out a weakness in a mechanic does not mean they do not know how to play properly or equip correctly.
Take the same amount of time, money, etc put into any of the classes and the CW comes out pretty HAMSTER poor in the end compared. And the original point of this thread is that the Control Wizard can't control ANYTHING as past mid level just about everything is control immune. So why not just remove it from the game and put in a Elemental Wizard and give it DSP from the start because that is really what it is anyway and it seems like tank, buffer, and DSP is all anyone wants in a end game group anyway.
If you focus on optimizing a character around it, you'd not only lose a lot on other points of interest but in fact would have to deal with something that works similarly to the Renegade's feat Chaos Magic. The effect of randomness would make it kind of void in the key moments where you'd need to control or that the gameplay itself depends upon your control in approx 2-3 sec. Having a randomness define whether you can control or not would make you either randomly useful or completely useless.
For Damage that randomness can work. You'd be like fighting, fighting and then "lel that thing proc'd finally" (like the people who use Elven Ferocity hah)
For the Control it needs to be very concise and specific and the higher-tier mobs having more saving throws to it doesn't seem like a very good idea.
You can experience something similar when fighting the WoD's demon encounter (that big demon that comes out can be frozen from time to time, I think it's a bug), but you can't really calculate properly with a CW for instance with such a mechanic even if it could give you some advantage for instance.
There's more to it. Some player are dependent upon receiving damage in order to proc certain items/spells/features, and having a monster frozen to some degree would be a lack of the synergy.
A Control is definitely needed, but it is needed to a point where it pays off more than the actual DPS build for a wizard. Or having the mid-ground where damage is halved, but control is increased (similarly to how Oppressor works).
Of course that people will complain about something being wrong or unfair on the forum. Especially present in a variety of MMOs. It's a necessity, actually, to offer criticism since that allows more room for the growth.
There are few lackings in the mechanics of the Elite mobs which undermine the Class potential to use certain spells.
I use one loadout for fighting lower tier mobs and another loadout for fighting dungeon-level mobs since freezing them simply doesn't pay and thanks to that I lose a fair portion of my build's damage potential simply because I can't freeze the enemy (or use a variety of skills on them like shard of avalanche or entangling force or similar).
It's a workaround, but it's nowhere near good for the concept of the gameplay I had in mind or that I can work with in the rest of the 90% of the game itself.
If I can use Entangling Force to force choke mobs in lvl 1-60 i should be able to do the same to the elite enemies. AT LEAST on the spell mastery if nothing else.
OnTopic : And here is the proposition - Make the Spell Mastery spells inflict controlling options on the elite mobs. That way not all controlling options would work. I understand that this would be a heck of a job to do, but I firmly believe that this is the best possible middle-ground in terms of the controlling options on the elite mobs.
Where does this leave my Oppressor CW? She has exactly two places where she can shine: Tiamat and Stronghold Marauders. If the epic dungeons had been left alone instead of being turned into their "New and improved! Now with 100x the HP!" versions she would be useful there as well, but sadly those days are gone.
Guys, really. If it ain't broke, don't fix it!
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So while I generally agree with your assessment: Wizard's, not to mention Hunter Rangers, Guardian Fighters, and Warlocks can also benefit by introducing new Enchantments/Runestones with values of control or control resistance!
Perhaps it's time for a new Cruel style enchantment that also offers a benefit of Power & Armor Pen / Defense & Lifesteal paired with either a control / control resist depending if offense or defensive slot?
CW making TO9G
GWF dps:
GF DPS:
I think I'm coming from a slightly different perspective on this too. I've played both videogames and table top D&D forever, and some of the mechanical approaches can be rather different between the two. D&D has a lot of "all-or-nothing" / "hit-or-miss" mechanics. Videogames frequently work on a "always works, but to varying degrees" model. With "all-or-nothing" spell effects, you win some, you lose some, but when it works it REALLY WORKS! I really like that. Sure, you might waste a spell and accomplish nothing, but you might also single-handedly win the whole battle. "Always works, but to varying degrees" works ok for pure damage effects/attacks, but when you try to model more interesting and powerful effects, like control, it inevitably devolves into "always works, but poorly" which is where we've gotten now.
I'm also a sucker for D&D videogames actually working like D&D.
I find it to be equally interesting to play more DnD-like. However, I think that implementing something that you proposed would prove to be equally redundant at the current state of the meta due to the way how the content is made and how the dps/buff/debuff orientation is promoting the current state of the game. It's not that your idea is wrong, not that my idea is wrong, but the state of the game would just flow around any of our proposed implementations, if they'd get to a point of existence to begin with.
You know, I keep asking for some control from the point of changing the way elite mobs work. I'm completely aware that anything implemented would be a sword with two sharp edges and you'd have to lose something in order to gain something. Control would certainly bring problems into the game. That's pretty much all.
I'm unfortunately aware that...well... a lot of time passed since it's original conceptualization of the controlling options and MOD3 changed things forever. There's just too much time between the periods and less refining of the controlling options to a point where it's very forgotten and it would be a big question whether it'd be implemented just as good as it was back in MOD1-2. The Control options have been redundant for a long time for the CW class, aside from the occasional freezing.
Even back when they were somewhat good you'd get a myriad of DCs using Sunburst or GF's jumping into the mobs, splashing them around, or even now OPs jumping into the mobs spreading them out. The other classess controlling options are not at all working in the synergy with the controlling options of the groups like TR/CW/HR. I constantly have to tell people "don't spread the mobs" in literally every single mod that I've played. And there are people who enjoy doing exactly that. Spreading the mobs around.
It is annoying, to say the least.
Thank you for the random Youtube links
Have a nice day
I honestly cannot think of anything more to say that wouldn't be perceived as incredibly arrogant and insulting
This will prove extremely useful on the AoE magnitude.
As for perpetuating or proving anything to a person who knows nothing about the CW's I suggest to simply give it a break and disregard anything that maliciously comes from the same person who proved many times not to possess the optimal knowledge of the game's intrinsic values in the overall sense
Those are subjective and display nothing but performances of 3 individuals without regard to their skill, gear, builds.... anything really
At least c1k4ml3kc3 is arguing that the weapon damage for CW is lower than the weapon damage for GWF, which is objective (if flawed in my opinion, but I respect the point of view)
He does have a nasty habit of taking disagreement personally and being a bit mean about it, which doesn't really help sway opinion either
I am not the only one saying that they either have or know a CW that is doing just fine in the DPS race, leading to the conclusion that if some CWs are not having problems and you are, the problem may well be you in some way
This thread was about Controllers, anyway, not DPS, and I fully support the idea by taking the option of CC builds out of the game (among other bad ideas) Cryptic has forced this single playstyle DPS only race on us to the overall detriment of the game
I see a lot of assertions or dismissiveness of class disparity based on judging BiS performance, but a lot less based on more realistic gear levels, and not just here, but universally. A $5,000 character in the hands of an obsessed perfectionist can often do things that make everyone else's head spin, either causing them to cry for nerfs or say "see, no problems here!" Both are missing the point. Most people are not that, and will never be. I don't care if a handful of people can break the speed of light. I care if one 12-14k class in the hands of a decent player can compete with a different 12-14k class in the hands of another decent player. Everything else is just irrelevant epeen measuring/envy.
And with those standards in mind, the real class disparities are pretty obvious just by looking at the lfg requests if nothing else.
Nobody can provide that equal of a playing field, and I don't really think anybody would really enjoy playing a cookie cutter
The LFG group demands are mindless and I have no idea why anyone would choose to play that way
As has been said many times in these threads, there are plenty of examples of widely varying yet ultimately successful party compositions for all content... The zombies insisting on the meta in a LFG pug are only hoping for as close to a guaranteed speed run as they can get so they can farm dungeons
There are only 5 people in every party, so even if classes were somehow magically balanced to make everyone equal, there would still be math that showed the meta should be 5 particular classes with specific builds and the other 3 classes would complain that nobody will let them play, and the answer would still be to make friends and form your own groups
The talk of class balance in PvE is just senseless... Too many useless and broken feats and powers exist to worry about everyone being able to perform equally when the goal in PvE is to finish the dungeon... THERE IS NO SCORE
Again, the point of this thread was to talk about CC builds not being viable, not DPS builds being slightly more or less powerful than one another
The only builds that matter in this game are max DPS and buffing/debuffing to provide more DPS because the content being produced forces that monolithic mentality on us without regard for the fact that this game was intended to allow for many different and equally viable playstyles
If the content allowed for controlling, other forms of buffing and even allowed DoT damage to have a place, maybe we would be less whiny about balance, which is nothing more than some classes being slightly worse at providing the one thing this game requires
That said, balance could only be a thing when all else is equal, meaning top gear score and identical mounts, pets and BiS gear... to demand balanced DPS at varying levels of anything else is just unrealistic
The Control Wizard controls nothing.
There is a downside, though, at least with one power. With that much control strength, when you use Arcane Singularity against run-of-the-mill open-world enemies (no thick HP bars), it tends to launch them in every direction.
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My Foundry playthrough channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/Ruskaga/featured