kalina311Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,082Arc User
edited December 2017
so therefore weaker classes that can kills steal and players that can take advantage of timing or getting the last shot it also appear to be better and skew results ..re balancing things any class can be using shadowclad armor or a stealth ring to be gaming kills tho
does skewed (for x y z reason/rationalisation ) = balance then ? or is it indicative of the lack thereof
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kalina311Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,082Arc User
edited December 2017
the maditory tr pvp stealth reveal after they attack(the devs put in place) that we had briefly for a mod pros ? cons? will this balance things ?
@marnival...what ever makes ur day...I question ur behavior! Like in the match yesterday - because of bad match making after a few mins it was already something like 8 to 400 for my team and the match long gone. Ur team got bored and gang banged player like me which where only waiting for the match to end. Also is it really stupid to blame the player that they wanna max out the tools are given from Cryptic. U play a GF - so be quiet pls but u think ur 12k should be top dog so u go in rage mode every time a Tr attacks. For me I find ur behavior as really low end.
Check leaderboard K/D ratio and u will find similar ratios for near all classes - u pick out 1 Tr for ur arguments...valid for sure! The Tr. was nerfed dozen times (including stealth reveal already) in the last 4 years - the top player will adapt like always...rinse and repeat. Cryptic has no lucky hands for doing things right (pre SoD) so it will maybe even worse than now. (with dim. returns Cryptic thought killing each other pretty easy would bring the fresh air in pvp - now u have a hard time to find a spot to place ur daily between all the temp hp / lions up). And here u find ur real top dogs near in all classes - some of them have such a insane dmg output that they passing by this wall which is for all others (including my Tr) impossible.
you can tell classes are balanced when there is an equal representation on the leader board and reasonable kill to death ratios/representation for all depending on viable class path /paragon role
Further grouped in knowing a player items level and guild / player reputation
also If the leader board were sorted by class better like the neverwinter combat league did
also like you said in how it was in earlier mods
Players on xbox and ps4((at least the ones that read the forums) that are a mod behind dont have the "feel" yet for how the classes really are in PVP rather are told how pc players "say" they are and are indignant until they see /feel new Cc mechanics for themselves ..or play a class that is not negativity affected and are clearly biased
this also effects the devs seamingly sitting back and waiting/ and not commenting on pvp cc changes etc .. to see what happens to pvp on consoles and how player react /give feedback / come up with creative builds...also with mod 13 fixes looming changing the pvp landscape again
some console players in this very forum are thinking that 500-1 and 1000-1 tr pvp kill to death ratios are made up and exaggerated (cause they are in a different mod or chose to be contrary for the sake of it) and say that players are trolling making such "claims" despite screen shot leader board proof
First off all i dont think there should be equal representation of classes, this is not possible for a number of reasons and not important.Even in pve in first mods dc was least played class, even tho it was most sought out class for a dungeon. Balance is a different thing tho, which i agree is not good but, i still believe IL is a bigger issue.
I took a glance at leader board. So first kill ratio: average of best trs they make 10 kills per game, its something even top cws can maintain. Looking at kill ratio per game tr is not broken, its an good average, maybe even best, but by a very small margin .Many classes do perform in same way as gf. Then if you look win loss ratio, its still the same as every other class.Its not winning on its own. Now dead ratio is way off, a lot thats true, but there is a reason for that too, trs dodge,itc, stealth,encounters and use 5 skills from 6 just to stay alive. And even if they stay alive all the time their kill ratio is not bigger then the rest. So if tr needs to die more it would need more dmg to sustain 10 kill average per class. Its easy to conclude its not that broken after all. Im not saying its fair, its not balanced , but its not game breaking either. But IL is game breaking, and it does destroy so many games to a point were it makes no sense. If u have gf with same IL as tr you can at least survive some rotations in worst case , but 8k is instant death. At least heavy diminishing returns would be nice.
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kalina311Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,082Arc User
edited December 2017
also pvp is very hard to balance when you have players say thing like this in the pmvspm extorting people
PMvsPM] (names removed )so if u dont like my drains pay up 10 gold for the day
[PMvsPM] (name removed ) i think its fair
must have been a joke tho lol probably low on gold to swap /remove enchants lol welcome back I sent gold to this player:P
mind you he could have just destroyed the enchants instead of removing them lol
@marnival...what ever makes ur day...I question ur behavior! Like in the match yesterday - because of bad match making after a few mins it was already something like 8 to 400 for my team and the match long gone. Ur team got bored and gang banged player like me which where only waiting for the match to end. Also is it really stupid to blame the player that they wanna max out the tools are given from Cryptic. U play a GF - so be quiet pls but u think ur 12k should be top dog so u go in rage mode every time a Tr attacks. For me I find ur behavior as really low end.
Check leaderboard K/D ratio and u will find similar ratios for near all classes - u pick out 1 Tr for ur arguments...valid for sure! The Tr. was nerfed dozen times (including stealth reveal already) in the last 4 years - the top player will adapt like always...rinse and repeat. Cryptic has no lucky hands for doing things right (pre SoD) so it will maybe even worse than now. (with dim. returns Cryptic thought killing each other pretty easy would bring the fresh air in pvp - now u have a hard time to find a spot to place ur daily between all the temp hp / lions up). And here u find ur real top dogs near in all classes - some of them have such a insane dmg output that they passing by this wall which is for all others (including my Tr) impossible.
I used to play main Hr before piercing damage then I switched to Gf as I was no fan of easy broken things. I also played gwf sw dc and pal in pvp but in with todays broken Tr I only play Gf as I find pal to be to boring with waiting for daily bam etc etc.
No you do not find same simular ratio on all classes simply because no other class comes close to having such a cheese mode Tr has. What in best damage best cc best defence for one class do you not understand is broken?
There is no class that can have 1000/1 + kill/death ratio as there is no class that has such a redicules defence such as hide itc or even near such ubah dodges Tr has lets add 85% deflect severity + highest bonuse for dex to deflect ingame and you end up with this HAMSTER godmode class.
You go check the kill/death ratio for the top of each class as you obviously have not with your invalid claime.
Again pit 2 Tr against any class then pit 2 of any class against a tr and you will see the result. NOTHING will live more then a few seconds against 2 tr knowing what they do but a good tr will not only live but in the end kill most combination of any class.
Defending the state of the Tr class as it is in pvp today can only be done by those that likes to play something in godmode pretending they are the ones that are good, any objective facts speakes for themself.
@m....and again nothing but meh...have ur opinion but learn some human behavior within pvp pls!
Again nothing but facts which you do the best to ignore as they are undeniable, mý behavior is extremely good as I do not chase kills in a won match I do my best to avoid killing at all, I go for the highest gs people and leave low IL gs alone as long as they do not gang up on me or are on node for which my team is fighting for.
I do have a very strong disslike for Tr that run around with bb+sod using perma build to hunt people down in a never ending one sided storry of getting kills with no risk whatsover for themself.
If you enter pvp in todays NW pvp with such a build as high IL Tr you are not out for the pvp and fight you are just in for the slaughter of others in some form of feeling good when in fact you can as well enter a pc game with immortality codes on.....
@m...last that Im in for that nonsense...from ur post above I can see that u claim to be something like the Robin Hood of PvP in Neverwinter. Congrats! I dont defend Tr as he is right now...I was questioning ur behavior in pvp which is really rude and insulting. End of story.
Post edited by aixis2000 on
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kalina311Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,082Arc User
@m...last that Im in for that nonsence...from ur post above I can see that u caim to be something like the Robin Hood of PvP in Neverwinter. Congrats! I dont defend Tr as he is right now...I was questioning ur behavior in pvp which is really rude and insulting. End of story.
You confuse "Your", read Tr:s, behavior with my "tells" to those with rude behavior. If I would get unresistable damage, endless aoe smoke together with immortality and enter pvp I would consider it extremely rude to run around and kill other pvping player for my own lesure but I guess you miss the issue as you do play Tr, how is they saying - can´t see the forrest for all the trees.......
I would call both behaviour rude, since it´s also an annoyance to step into PVP and get instant killed by every fothm TR. All player with several toons to chose, that pick exclusively their TR to torture the PVP community are rude and abusive to some degree. That´s my opinion.
Irresistable damage, that even ignores dodges? Broken. Do I have to pick any kind of Arp/RI at all or can I go all power since my damage counts pre mititgation ? If yes , it´s even more broken.
U both claim that someone is rude only for playing a class u dont like and u blame the player not Cryptic that the Tr is as he is right now? Cryptic doesnt care enough or isnt able to balance that class in a right way only nerf after nerf and everytime with unpleasant results either for the class or for all others. An analogy to that thinking..."Maschinenstürmer" - comes in mind.
Post edited by aixis2000 on
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kalina311Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,082Arc User
edited December 2017
and the devs delay hoping they will find some magic combo and some elegant code to make powers work for pvp and pve when sometimes it is impossible..and they already have powers that are dual coded anyways ..
.on such a controversial power such as sod / smoke / etc they should make everyone happy pvp and pve and just dual code it already ffs
so one group stop blaming the other ..and they devs stop being afraid of getting it wrong and a new uproar arising also that way /by the same method they could buff other less performing at will powers for under performing class in pvp/pve too experimentally ...
maybe start by buffing balancing / buffing at will powers for all classes cause they are smaller set to initially deal with
No, i blame the one that could chose another class out of his 10 chars, but exclusively runs or hops on his broken toy and destroys the very little rest oft PVP, even though he knows it's abusive, lame and destroys everyones experience in PVP, simply by running that tree/classfeature out of several others he could chose. Pretty easy to understand and pretty easy to witness this behaviour in NWO . It is a known issue and a major problem since long.
The player chose themself wich way to go, they do this 100% knowing it's broken and 100% knowing it's destructive, who else to blame?
My Tr was my first toon in NW...I run him as a pug since open beta so I dont refer ur argument to myself. And I wonder...as every SW was running around with 10+ soul puppets in pvp what did you minewhile?
This pvp community is very small, in fact its smallest that has every been. Which is very bad for the game , but it can also be a good thing. Most changes and nerfs start right here on forum and if he agree on something it can probably be done. So if only 10 of us here agree on something it can probably be changed. All we need to set aside personal issues find the biggest problem in the game and agree to fix that first. Make a post in which most of us agree on something and try to change it. Easy as that. There is discord we can talk there as well.
I know item lvl difference is what made this game popular in the first place ,easy wins who doesnt like that , but too much good stuff is a bad thing, and this is starting to show now after 12 mods , pvp is losing new players, and the base players are less by the day.
Its easy to see biggest problem in pvp is the item lvl difference ,im not saying its the only problem ,all im saying its the biggest one. Only with this change we can solve a number of problems. For example return of diminishing returns.
So we need to pedal back and give everyone chance to play pvp as like in first mods. With less item lvl difference, more pvp players will come and off course more chance to abuse mehanic , kill, win , lose , all the stuff we like. Dont be afraid to lose some edge over the pugs and let them play as well, we can get much more in return.
I know this is a far cry, but HAMSTER it had to try.
@schiet...stay on 100% pls...all above is nothing but marketing bs...mostly used by manager/bosses to motivate their underpaid workers or to point out that someone did a little bit more as having a chat at the coffee bean and checking social media accounts during his working day at the office. Something really triggers me...no one forced u to play ur SW but through ur posts I can read a bit that u wanna force ppl to abandon their toons cause u think its broken and if they still play them they are bad guys...if so I think u have to compensate them....short example: I have a t.vorpal which I upgraded from my p.vorpal which I bought long ago for 23 Mio AD on AH. I bought some of my rank 12 enchants for a price u can buy now rank 14 and so on...not to mention the tons of cubes or wards...
Yes Tr need a rework but to be fair near all decent tools that that class provide is already nerfed or ppl cry for it. Pre-SoD comes also from a nerf demand but u blame the Tr for it....meh...
Yes i go with ur argument that something can be done like not using drains/ambush/cowardice/sandys and whatever comes along in the same way...the most fun I had was naked premades back in mod 5/6...vanilla is the way to go!
Blame ppl for using something like that but not for core mechanics of a class. I have a sabo build loadout as well or can change to scoundrel cause my dmg out is not that high that it would make a difference but I get still blamed for CB,BB,SB,ITC,PoB,SE,LB,DS and so on...I call that meh...
Comments
any class can be using shadowclad armor or a stealth ring to be gaming kills tho
does skewed (for x y z reason/rationalisation ) = balance then ? or is it indicative of the lack thereof
pros ? cons? will this balance things ?
Also is it really stupid to blame the player that they wanna max out the tools are given from Cryptic. U play a GF - so be quiet pls but u think ur 12k should be top dog so u go in rage mode every time a Tr attacks. For me I find ur behavior as really low end.
Check leaderboard K/D ratio and u will find similar ratios for near all classes - u pick out 1 Tr for ur arguments...valid for sure! The Tr. was nerfed dozen times (including stealth reveal already) in the last 4 years - the top player will adapt like always...rinse and repeat. Cryptic has no lucky hands for doing things right (pre SoD) so it will maybe even worse than now. (with dim. returns Cryptic thought killing each other pretty easy would bring the fresh air in pvp - now u have a hard time to find a spot to place ur daily between all the temp hp / lions up). And here u find ur real top dogs near in all classes - some of them have such a insane dmg output that they passing by this wall which is for all others (including my Tr) impossible.
Balance is a different thing tho, which i agree is not good but, i still believe IL is a bigger issue.
I took a glance at leader board.
So first kill ratio:
average of best trs they make 10 kills per game, its something even top cws can maintain.
Looking at kill ratio per game tr is not broken, its an good average, maybe even best, but by a very small margin
.Many classes do perform in same way as gf.
Then if you look win loss ratio, its still the same as every other class.Its not winning on its own.
Now dead ratio is way off, a lot thats true, but there is a reason for that too, trs dodge,itc, stealth,encounters
and use 5 skills from 6 just to stay alive.
And even if they stay alive all the time their kill ratio is not bigger then the rest.
So if tr needs to die more it would need more dmg to sustain 10 kill average per class.
Its easy to conclude its not that broken after all.
Im not saying its fair, its not balanced , but its not game breaking either.
But IL is game breaking, and it does destroy so many games to a point were it makes no sense.
If u have gf with same IL as tr you can at least survive some rotations in worst case , but 8k is instant death.
At least heavy diminishing returns would be nice.
PMvsPM] (names removed )so if u dont like my drains pay up 10 gold for the day
[PMvsPM] (name removed ) i think its fair
must have been a joke tho lol probably low on gold to swap /remove enchants lol welcome back
I sent gold to this player:P
mind you he could have just destroyed the enchants instead of removing them lol
No you do not find same simular ratio on all classes simply because no other class comes close to having such a cheese mode Tr has.
What in best damage best cc best defence for one class do you not understand is broken?
There is no class that can have 1000/1 + kill/death ratio as there is no class that has such a redicules defence such as hide itc or even near such ubah dodges Tr has lets add 85% deflect severity + highest bonuse for dex to deflect ingame and you end up with this HAMSTER godmode class.
You go check the kill/death ratio for the top of each class as you obviously have not with your invalid claime.
Again pit 2 Tr against any class then pit 2 of any class against a tr and you will see the result. NOTHING will live more then a few seconds against 2 tr knowing what they do but a good tr will not only live but in the end kill most combination of any class.
Defending the state of the Tr class as it is in pvp today can only be done by those that likes to play something in godmode pretending they are the ones that are good, any objective facts speakes for themself.
I do have a very strong disslike for Tr that run around with bb+sod using perma build to hunt people down in a never ending one sided storry of getting kills with no risk whatsover for themself.
If you enter pvp in todays NW pvp with such a build as high IL Tr you are not out for the pvp and fight you are just in for the slaughter of others in some form of feeling good when in fact you can as well enter a pc game with immortality codes on.....
I dont defend Tr as he is right now...I was questioning ur behavior in pvp which is really rude and insulting. End of story.
If I would get unresistable damage, endless aoe smoke together with immortality and enter pvp I would consider it extremely rude to run around and kill other pvping player for my own lesure but I guess you miss the issue as you do play Tr, how is they saying - can´t see the forrest for all the trees.......
All player with several toons to chose, that pick exclusively their TR to torture the PVP community are rude and abusive to some degree. That´s my opinion.
Irresistable damage, that even ignores dodges? Broken.
Do I have to pick any kind of Arp/RI at all or can I go all power since my damage counts pre mititgation ? If yes , it´s even more broken.
An analogy to that thinking..."Maschinenstürmer" - comes in mind.
.on such a controversial power such as sod / smoke / etc they should make everyone happy pvp and pve and just dual code it already ffs
so one group stop blaming the other ..and they devs stop being afraid of getting it wrong and a new uproar arising
also that way /by the same method they could buff other less performing at will powers for under performing class in pvp/pve too experimentally ...
maybe start by buffing balancing / buffing at will powers for all classes cause they are smaller set to initially deal with
Pretty easy to understand and pretty easy to witness this behaviour in NWO . It is a known issue and a major problem since long.
The player chose themself wich way to go, they do this 100% knowing it's broken and 100% knowing it's destructive, who else to blame?
But in the end thats all leads to nothing.
Anyway PVP is not to handle the way it is.
Too much gear , too many variables and obviously no dev to care about.
The argument is 110% valid.
The Argument :" Buäh, all des fault, i did not do anything wrong is invalid by sure"
Which is very bad for the game , but it can also be a good thing.
Most changes and nerfs start right here on forum and if he agree on something it
can probably be done.
So if only 10 of us here agree on something it can probably be changed.
All we need to set aside personal issues
find the biggest problem in the game and agree to fix that first.
Make a post in which most of us agree on something and try to change it.
Easy as that.
There is discord we can talk there as well.
I know item lvl difference is what made this game popular in the first place ,easy wins who doesnt like that , but too much good stuff
is a bad thing, and this is starting to show now after 12 mods ,
pvp is losing new players, and the base players are less by the day.
Its easy to see biggest problem in pvp is the item lvl difference ,im not saying its the only problem ,all im saying its the biggest one.
Only with this change we can
solve a number of problems.
For example return of diminishing returns.
So we need to pedal back and give everyone chance to play pvp as like in first mods.
With less item lvl difference, more pvp players will come and off course more chance to abuse mehanic , kill, win , lose , all the stuff we like.
Dont be afraid to lose some edge over the pugs and let them play as well, we can get much more in return.
I know this is a far cry, but HAMSTER it had to try.
Something really triggers me...no one forced u to play ur SW but through ur posts I can read a bit that u wanna force ppl to abandon their toons cause u think its broken and if they still play them they are bad guys...if so I think u have to compensate them....short example: I have a t.vorpal which I upgraded from my p.vorpal which I bought long ago for 23 Mio AD on AH. I bought some of my rank 12 enchants for a price u can buy now rank 14 and so on...not to mention the tons of cubes or wards...
Yes Tr need a rework but to be fair near all decent tools that that class provide is already nerfed or ppl cry for it. Pre-SoD comes also from a nerf demand but u blame the Tr for it....meh...
Yes i go with ur argument that something can be done like not using drains/ambush/cowardice/sandys and whatever comes along in the same way...the most fun I had was naked premades back in mod 5/6...vanilla is the way to go!
Blame ppl for using something like that but not for core mechanics of a class. I have a sabo build loadout as well or can change to scoundrel cause my dmg out is not that high that it would make a difference but I get still blamed for CB,BB,SB,ITC,PoB,SE,LB,DS and so on...I call that meh...