So, I have been playing Neverwinter on and off for about a year now
and decided to do some extensive testing/research for the class I play--cleric. This led into learned the mechanics of most of the classes, since I had to work with other classes to really do anything useful. I was trying to find out what exactly cleric was capable of doing or not capable of doing, while also figuring out how this interacts with other classes. There are several issues with the cleric, as it turns out the game isn't perfect, so I ended up writing down any ideas I had for fixing these issues as well (not that any of my ideas would actually work). So finally, this is what i came up with:
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Link to the DC Class Review ---
This document also includes things like AP gain, base damage, buff values, etc. It should contain all of the important stuff that isn't necessarily listed on the in-game tooltips.
Big thanks to everyone who helped with it! If you see any mistakes or anything that I missed, or just can't find a piece of information that you think should be included, please let me know. At this time I don't plan on updating it for awhile, even if later modules flip the meta on its head.
I probably don't plan on doing a document like this for any more classes, I barely have the resources to keep my cleric at a competent level, let alone other classes. I kinda want to see if this is even useful in the first place before jumping into a project of that size.
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House Miliskeera in exile (NW)
Sereska Miliskeera, Lvl 70 OP - Devotion (Just.)/Protection (Just.)
Shizlee Miliskeera, Lvl 70 DC - Divine Oracle (Right.)/Anoited Champion (Faith.)
Finithey Miliskeera, Lvl 70 HR - Stormwarden (Combat)/Pathfinder (Trapper)
Maya Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 CW - Spellstorm
Irae Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 TR - Master Inflitrator
Member - Houseclan t'Charvon (STO)
Shiarrael e'Tal'Aura t'Charvon, LvL 60, Rom Sci
S'aana ir'Virinat t'Charvon, Lvl 60, Rom Eng
T'Lyra, LvL 60, Fed, Vul Sci
Ta'el, Lvl 60, Rom Tac
just had a request from a guildy asking all about DC.
I was thinking, damn where should i start...but now i know
Thanks for the work and for sharing it, @darthtzarr !
cheers
I can only imagine how much work you put into that.
The thing that "bothers" me is that its for BiS players, cause I think that new players or people with not so good gear would actually slot BoH or Healer's Lore (those are rated as 1) for extra heals in most of dungeons where their team gets wiped.
I agree that killing enemies faster with debuffs works better, but if team has reaaaaaally low dmg then those buffs wont really help as much xD
Also you write "Some powers will be rated higher than expected simply because they are good in PVE or PVP", but your ratings are purely PvE, have nothing to do with PvP.
Most of the skills you rated as 1 I would rate as 5 as I am a PvP player.
YouTube
Signature [WIP] - tyvm John
Thanks for your DC class review doc. It covers well the facets ofDC and should help many of us tweak our DC build/gameplay ! (* Gets triggered by the animation of e. FF when there's only 1 DC on the team*)
There are a couple things I disagree on, and I'll try not to make an awkward post this time
I feel we play different games (I do farm tong regularly on different toons, but I'm nowhere near BiS) .
The first thing I have to disagree is the ranking of Exaltation vs Astral Shield (I was like, 1 for AS?!).
I agree Astral Shield is not needed in some groups, and in that case I'd gladly use exaltation. But for squishier groups AS is very valuable, since one guy dying at the wrong moment can be fatal for the whole team (and let's face it dying is less fun). Ultimately it's about knowing the group balance.
Unless your team is solid defense-wise/ you're at Orcus, I think using exalt (for 12% damage for one dude) is greedy.
Also AS is great for pugging/ random q (since you got only 1 DC), and it allows to completely ignore some mechanics (AKA stay in red/behind the tank and don't give a ****, conveniant huh ?).
The second thing is cast times and which divinity spell used (but that's a small detail)
Normal/Empowered encounter cast times hardly matter (since the encounters are so good, and barring a few exceptions, they're pretty short anyway). However the only divine encounter that matters for a non-dps DC is Divine Glow.
The goal here is to empty the divine gauge as quickly as possible to have good uptime on your other buffs, and some spells have short cast time in divinity. I don't like divine bts, I find it sluggish, so I use divine DG then spam divine ff/AS/exalt. I'd be curious to know the cast time for divinity spells if they're different
Last, AA on top of what you already mentionned, offers a flat incoming damage reduction which, combined with other tools of mitigation, is really good in Pve. (My health is not even decreasing in some occurences)
And a little question, where maybe @rjc9000 can help how does DR shred from tong work ? Does being over the cap help here ?
From low to high geared groups, if you have the normal double DC comp, you should be able to maintain these buffs. From low to high geared, this should be your DR values.
Defense Stat: 10%-40%
Hallowed Ground: 35%
Divine Glow: 17.5%
Shepherd's Devotion: 10%-25%
Blessing of Battle: 8%
Have Faith: 5%
= 85.5%-130.5%
If you feel like someone is squishier than normal, you can cast Divine Exaltation on them to grant them +30% DR and then normal version for another 12% DR. It takes a lot more skill from the DC to use (or an in-game macro), but you will never have your allies walk out of your Exaltation and die like they do for Astral Shield. Back when Astral Shield mitigated flat damage, I would have rated it a lot higher (even rating it 5 for being overpowered in PVP), but at the moment, I cannot find a low enough group to warrant slotting it. Worst case scenario, I use divine exaltation on someone I think is too squishy.
Also note that if you have a paladin in the group, they are giving the party an extra
40%25% DR from circle of power, and they should have Shepherd's Devotion for an extra 10%-25% DR as well (this should leave the parties DR at around 120.5%-180.5%). At that point, you will never get any benefit from Astral Shield. Yes, this is more talking about end-game optimized groups, but at the same time, it is also very easy to just have everyone in the group use the "correct" powers and items to cap DR for "cheaper". You are very correct, it doesn't matter that much. But the point is to get your empowered stacks up as fast as possible, so you will almost always use the fastest power (or most useful power) in divinity mode. I use Divinity Divine Glow once to give the damage stack, and then cast BtS or FF (I only ever have one of them slotted) twice to get empowered up as fast as possible. As far as I know, both BtS and FF have the same cast time, and both of them can be cast faster than divine glow. You might cast Divine Glow after the double BtS/FF depending on when you expect your DPS to deal their damage, but other than that, the only reason to cast Divine Glow 3x, would be if you are having trouble hitting the DPS with it. Again, this is very minor and simply an optimization. It is always better to have your buffs up while your party is doing DPS, rather than getting them up late and having no benefit. Okay, I should have known better. Someone already told me this during proofreading, and I forgot to add it in. It's a very valid point, and I will work on adding it because it is quite important. If you are talking about debuffs, the formula is on the Russian forums, and there is a copy of it in the Desmos graphs in the weapon enchantment section of the review.If you are talking about Ras'Nsi armor debuff, then I think it is a multiplier on damage based on the number of stacks you have on. 16 stacks = 16x more damage. Although from what I have just heard, it might be -15% DR (which could make DR more useful during this one fight if you aren't greatly overcapped)
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HG: 35%
Glow: 17.5%
BoB: 8%
Have Faith: 5%
(Shepherd's Devotion: LOTS)
That's already 65.5%, that means, there are only 29.5% left to hit the 95%-mark.
Then there is Exa, it adds another 12% dmg resi buff on the main dps, usually the squishiest member.
And if there is a prot OP with CoP, that would be another 25%.
To the rotation:
That's exactly the point, if you use Dbts and then combo Dbts into Dglow it will clear the last 2 stacks in one animation, you can tab during the animation and use the 3Ebts much faster this way.
3x Dglow just takes forever.
I cannot tell you the number of times @kacezet or @dungra34 have raged when a DC cleansed their wraps.
EXALTATION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
cleanse procs
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> It should be noted that under class synergies that GF greatly benefits from Cleanse to get rid of that nasty Survivor's Wrap debuff.
>
> On the contrary, us GFs actually like the Survivors Wraps DoT effect (that's the whole point of using the wraps).
>
> I cannot tell you the number of times @kacezet or @dungra34 have raged when a DC cleansed their wraps.
I expected more awareness from you.
I am disappoint.
Sunburst - its also 5 in PvP, very useful there. I think every single DC had always those 3 skills slotted in Domination, which is Astral Shield, Sunburst and Break the Spirit and swap one of those to BoH when needed.
Guardian of Faith - its extremely situational but if you have good coordination with a GF you can prone the enemy and GF kills them easily. But yeah other than that it might be just rank 1 skill xD
Foresight - its top 3 most important class feature in PvP, so I would rate it 5 as well. I pretty much always have it slotted next to Terrifying Insight.
Anointed Armor - when I ran an AC build in PvP I always had it slotted to for extra tankiness, since u always want that extra deflect chance/AC so also 4/5.
Anointed Action - its also quite useful when having proper recovery to spam dailies. Would give it 3/4.
Holy Fervor - its also really nice sometimes with AC build and high recovery, can spam dailies.
Divine Armor - I would give it a 4. I use it for situations when my teammates are extremely low HP and I have to get my heals up, so I throw DA, get divinity and heal them asap before temp HP goes down.
YouTube
Now about the low rated powers. That is actually kind of the point of the rating system. The more situational a power, the lower it rates. This means that if the only place a power is useful is PVP, and only situationally even in PVP, it could be a 3 in PVP, but it gets an even lower score overall. I don't think a numerical one dimension system rating is very good in this way, but it was I am using for now.
To clarify, a ranking of 1 means that it is so useless that it should never be slotted, or is so situational that it could probably just be forgotten. Two means that a power is situational, and probably has a hard time seeing usage. Three means that a power is average, all-round, or balanced. These powers are usually good and have very little wrong with them. Four are powers that are usually very powerful regardless of what situation you use them in. Even if these powers aren't the right power for the situation, they can probably get the job done. Powers rated with a 5 are actually overpowered. These powers have no situation where they aren't the best power to slot. You can brute force any problem in the game with these powers regardless of how what synergy they have with your surroundings.
Okay yeah I rated Sunburst a bit low. I find it very difficult to use, but it definitely is up there as one of the best CC powers the cleric has in PVP. But it is still only situationally useful, since it is terrabad in PVE, meaning it cannot be a 5, or even a 3. Additionally, it is situational and difficult to use in PVP, since you must wait for a good time and cannot use it while an opponent is immune. It has a small heal and small amount of damage, so really is only slotted for the CC.
Divine Armor probably should be higher, but is somewhat situational currently, since Hallowed Ground provides a better defensive buff (in PVE) and a better offensive buff. It's a fairly average power though if you removed Hallowed Ground from the picture, so that is why I rated it a 3. It would need to be almost always slotted and usually cast in common situations to make it into the 4 category.
The only reason I would use Guardian of Faith in PVP is for the heal. It's massive, but I can't say I am a big fan of healing clerics in PVP after 12b. If I wanted to help secure a kill I would likely use Hammer of Fate or Hallowed Ground (combined with a stunning encounter).
The above statement is similar for Bastion of Health, although, I agree it is probably the only dedicated heal worth slotting for PVP. I like it, but can only find it situationally useful in PVP, and a power that is only situationally useful inside of PVP is definitely not making it above a 2 rating.
Foresight and Anointed Armor are only rated at 2 and 3 because they are only good in PVP. I know they are good in PVP, but they aren't good in PVE, that's why they only get 2-3. The reason Anointed Armor is rated higher than Foresight is simply because Deflection chance will almost always beat out DR as a defensive stat in PVP against competent opponents (ones with decent armor pen). Either way, they are usually only good in PVP, and at least Foresight is situational depending on your opponent's investment into armor pen.
Anointed Action is only a small 13% DR increase and 13% damage increase for a 5s duration, and only for yourself. If you can spam dailies every 5 seconds to benefit from this, you probably don't have enough power or armor pen to care about personal damage, and therefore probably should just slot a more defensive class feature like Anointed Armor, Divine Fortune or Hastening Light.
Holy Fervor is a fairly decent class feature, but has nothing special about it that would make it stand out. It isn't really situational, but isn't really all that useful either. It is simply an average, all-rounder class feature, which is what the rating of 3 means.
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The other thing is may new players do not properly setup their character and is missing insignia, enchantment (even R5) etc and get all mad when another player who is similar IL but is more balanced comes in and wipes the floor when compared to their build.
I have seen some 11 - 14K player that have R12 enchantments on their character and are using basic runestones and r7 enchantments on their companion and say I cheated because I have R12 bonding and using my higher enchantments on my companion. It is not rocket science though many think it is.
Mostly i agree with the review but a few things that i disagree on:
- I wouldnt mention it if lower groups were not mentioned somewhere in the review: The usefulness of Bastion of Health / other heal feats seems to be underrated in context on lower dps groups or when running with people who havent optimal builds or builded enough lifesteal. Example: This power was important when i got into a ramdom queued mSp run on my fresh dc. Nosturas curse hit pretty hard until she used her "eye" attack again which could let the party get pretty low on life. It helped a ton to get the grp back to full life. The tank gf didnt had much dmg to begin with so fighters recovery didnt worked well and the dds didnt had much lifesteal to safe themselves. Additionally before nostura the phase where she disappears she layed down the curse on the tank and the curse stacked up to 40+. The only way the tank survived was due to an empowered bastion. While this seems just to be a cornercase, i see it rather often in pugs.
- Near the same goes for AS in 1 DC runs: Most dds i have seen had around 30% dr or lower to begin with. Adding the 35% from HG and the 17.5% from divine glow pushed them to the cap of 80% or near to it. Now adding the 15% ArP the chult mobs have they would end up being at 65% and taking near double the damage without AS. That can cause some wipes.
Other curios things:Though the Crit reducing feat is still somewhat of a waste, since if the DO is properly placing HG/DG/DR buffs/etc, most attacks in the game are either "lulnodamage" or "gg get oneshotted no matter what you do", and enemies Critting or not doesn't eally change the damage scaling. To keep both up perpetually, you would need to fire a daily practically every 6 seconds.
I know @thefabricant tried to do that with making a BiS build on preview and he found that it was practically impossible
Also, not factoring in uptime, but due to the way Power Sharing and Power's DPS increase are calculated, you need 60kish base Power for AA to beat TI in terms of raw DPS increase.
To do that, you would need a BiS build with R14s everywhere;also note that for all that effort, some lowbie DO DC with Rank4 powers will provide the same, if not better DPS increase with a fraction of the effort and build cost.
If you have a Paladin in the team, there is pretty much never a situation when AA+BoB beats TI in a soloDC scenario. (See Sharp's attatched Powersharing sheet).
The exception to this trend goes to Ra Nsi, since Partial Paralysis can go **** itself. Note that Sylux said GWF only "minorly" falls behind, relative to other classes.
GWF and DC don't have any particular standout synergy like CWs and OPs have.
Though, that's not saying much, since what class wouldn't benefit from having one class multiply their damage by a metric ****ton?
But in the end, yes, there are a few situations where slotting Bastion of Health can create a smoother, faster run than slotting any other power. That is why it is a 2, which means that it is slotted situationally. To be rated higher (3) it would need to be slotted commonly, and have some general or decent purpose in most content, but it doesn't; in most content, it just ends up just being an AP generating encounter with a long cast time. You didn't include Shepherd's Devotion, Blessing of Battle, Circle of Power, Have Faith, Exaltation, and any other DR increasing effects that I probably forgot about. In the case of your team truly is built horribly, and the cleric is the only one providing any damage resistance, then yes, Astral Shield probably could have some use, but this situation is extremely rare, and generally only happens in tier one dungeons, where everyone plays a DPS class/build and nobody brings a tank... and I don't think anyone needs extra defenses in an area that doesn't even require a tank.
No, you cannot always have an optimal party or build, but if I were to give the advice to slot Astral Shield instead of advising you to rush Shepherd's Devotion, I would be doing you a disservice. And finally, just like with Bastion of Health, situationally useful (only used in groups where a single cleric is the only source of DR, or the cleric is vastly undergeared) it is rated as a 2. If it were useful in all dungeons in low geared pug groups, it would be a 3 or higher, but it isn't. If I remember correctly, all enemies only have like 15% critical severity, so even if they crit, it's highly underwhelming. If there was an enemy with a high crit chance, or some enemy with a very high critical severity, this could see use, but at the moment this feat is pretty useless outside of PVP. It's quite good in PVP in my opinion. Like @rjc9000 said, I haven't seen someone able to keep them both at 100% uptime regardless of build, and since every bit of recovery you build decreases the usefulness of AA, I don't see it gaining much traction even if it could be done. Also like @rjc9000 mentioned, bondings proc on a cooldown now, which makes spamming AA every couple of seconds a very high priority for Anointed Champions.
I haven't seen or heard about that before, but I haven't tested it explicitly. It's worth noting that Deflection and other shields go above the "80% cap", which can make some results look like you had more DR when looking at the log.
One of the bigger reasons is because GWFs have more power than other classes, and benefit less from the AC power share build, along with the massive debuff pool you mentioned. The thing is that a lot of classes get similar feat switches, and the cleric isn't the only class reducing the cooldown of Battlefury.
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but i think guide in youtube will be more helpfull now. game is combinations, animation cancel, positions, team 'work' etc.
my personal input;
Lance of faith 5 - makes damage like an encounter and cover small area
Astral Shield 0 - PVP & PVE
BoH 5 - PVP & PVE. for solo its uselss, but cleric is party class.
searing light 2 - i use it alot in solo and garbage runs (skirmish etc.)
DG and BTS as well 5 as you mention
Hammers 2 - its usefull in situations i need control imunity (mainly mode 12 solo contenet)
divine armor ally cap is 5 (effect only 5 most centered players, DC might not get it)
Healing action 3 - nothing else good at T1,T2 heroic feats
gift of haste 5
shared burden and united by faith should have more then 1 - compare to other T4, T5 feats
Lions, Dancers and Nightmare speakers can still stun you out of Hammer, so I don't know why it would be relevant in Chult. Besides that, I have only seen a use for it in PVP, and only on a DPS spec, and only against inexperienced opponents that try to challenge you inside it. Cool! Could you give a video example or other proof, so that I don't have to test it myself? Having nothing else good, doesn't automatically make another feat good. For a DPS Hybrid DO spec the feat doesn't even do anything, since they don't have a heal slotted most of the time. Gift of Haste is good, but it's very far from overpowered, since some allies cannot benefit much from the extra AP gain. Sometimes daily cooldowns, dailies that don't stack, or classes that simply don't have good dailies all gain very little benefit from this. They usually gain some benefit, but it's very far from overpowered after the nerf back around module 9, and the stack prevention in mod 11b I tried to never compare feats against each other unless it was relevant to the current topic. These feats do next to nothing outside of PVP, and even in PVP I wouldn't call them very amazing. If you really want to compare them against other feats, try comparing them to Condemning Gaze, Fire of the gods, and Bear Your Sins. It's a no contest.
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Astral Shield is very useful. Certainly shouldn't be rated as useless. It has the ability to grant damage resistance which helps count burst damage and it can grant temp hp which can help with surviving burst damage and aid in proc'ing wrathful warrior. It is situational and not useless.
there are some situation i can't cast HG unless i try to cancel animation. for some runs with other DC or OP i might play completly different than my usuall combo. there are big diffrence between PVP to PVE and i might switch from AC to DO in middle of run if my party need it (PVP orPVE)
lance of faith do same or more damage as FF, BTS, searing light, sun burst etc.
with the third AOE efect its very nice damage.
i realize you dont want to compare but still none of the other at will is that good.
i use hammers at corcodille weekly, very usefull but need to time/spam it.
try divine armor at demo and youll see its effect (try to cast the center not on you)
srry but i am realy bad in this recording.
Sure it is useless in groups that follow the mechanics and position right or just overgeared the content. That doesnt match my math that powersharing with 60k base power can just come close to a flat 20% increase, but i ll rather read that sheet if i would find it. Do you have a link? I would slot Bastion / AS just as the 3 encounter thus the buffs HG, TI, empBtS and dGlow remain the same. The only difference would be that i wouldnt slot PoD for the debuff. Lets say the party already has debuffs worth of +100%. PoD would just increase the damage by 8.75% not considering the uptime of PoD and that it is near useless in "trash". Then I rather use some sort of protection as a 3 encounter, so that the lower players dont just randomly die. I didnt mentioned AC powers, since DO remains better when played with lower il players as you have already stated.
A few other sceneries where it can be of use except mSp when the bosses dont melt:
- First and second EToS boss have some nice 360° attack. New players with meelee toons dont know that thus often dying at the first time the attack happens -> AS would prevent that
- Syndryths heal beam hits with 50% ArP since a few mods ago thus doing heavy dot dmg. Im not sure if that one can be cleansed. New tanks might not survive this-> Bastion could help here
- Ethraniev Marrowslakes hand hitting archers that stay out of range of buffs. -> Bastion can get back to full life. I didnt mentioned here dGlow since it doesnt heal that much on a lower do dc and would be kind of wasted.
- Ethraniev Marrowslakes jump followed by an hard hitting "at-will". People getting hit by the jump may not survive that follow up. -> AS would let them survive.
- Shadow Wolves chasing people with low life. -> Bastion can get them back to full life, so they can fight back.
That were just a few sceneries of 2 dungeons where AS / Bastion would be far more worth as a 3 Encounter than an additional debuff. I didnt include BoB and Exaltation because i was thinking of a DO DC, since AC isnt that good in lower geared parties due to missing bondings. Have Faith isnt recommended for Dos either, so i didnt include them too. I didnt included Shepherds devotion because of the generally lower power of DOs especially on a lower il dc, but yeah maybe add another 5%. AS is indeed more situational. I recall that they have 75% crit sev like default stats on any player, but i cant test it in the near time. I havent looked closer in other classes except the ones i play. Makes sense then.s very situational. I recall that crit sev on mobs is the same as default crit sev of players so 75%. That could help in some cases from the "gg get oneshotted no matter what you do". Any meelee player staying in the turtles 4 snapping attack? You still wouldnt put the result of no death on that feat since you cant see if the attack would had crit.Sure it is useless in groups that follow the mechanics and position right or just overgeared the content. That doesnt match my math that powersharing with 60k base power can just come close to a flat 20% increase, but i ll rather read that sheet if i would find it. Do you have a link?
I would slot Bastion / AS just as the 3 encounter thus the buffs HG, TI, empBtS and dGlow remain the same. The only difference would be that i wouldnt slot PoD for the debuff. Lets say the party already has debuffs worth of +100%. PoD would just increase the damage by ~ 8% not considering the uptime of PoD and that it is near useless in "trash". Then I rather use some sort of protection as a third encounter, so that the lower players dont just randomly die. I didnt mentioned AC powers, since DO remains better when played with lower il players as you have already stated.
Some other sceneries where it can be of use:
- First and second EToS boss have some nice 360° attack. New players with meelee toons dont know that. Thus they ll often die at the first time the attack happens -> AS would prevent that
- Syndryths heal beam hits with 50% ArP since a few mods ago thus doing heavy dot dmg. Im not sure it that one can be cleansed. New tanks might not survive this-> Bastion could help here
- Ethraniev Marrowslakes hand hitting archers that stay out of range of buffs. -> Bastion can get back to full life. I didnt mentioned here dGlow since it doesnt heal that much on a lower do dc and would be kind of wasted.
- Ethraniev Marrowslakes jump followed by an hard hitting "at-will". People getting hit by the jump may not survive that follow up. -> AS would let them survive.
- Shadow Wolves chasing people with low life. -> Bastion can get them back to full life to fight back.
That were just a few sceneries of two dungeons where AS / Bastion would be far more worth as a third Encounter than an additional debuff. I didnt include BoB and Exaltation because i was thinking of a DO DC, since AC isnt that good in lower geared parties due to missing bondings. Have Faith isnt recommended for Dos either, so i didnt include them too. I didnt included Shepherds devotion because of the generally lower power of DOs especially on a lower il dc, but yeah maybe add another 5% dr. AS is indeed more situational. I recall that they have 75% crit sev like default player stats, but i cant test it in the near time. I havent looked closer in other classes except the ones i play. Makes sense then.Here is that power share sheet I did.
Mobs do not have exactly 5% crit chance, I tested some mob attacks and it deviates from attack to attack (some crit ~15% of the time) but I am not going to sit around getting hit 1000's of times working out an approximation of the crit chance of every single attack. Furthermore, we do not know if that is a flat additive -5% crit chance or a 0.95 multiplier and I will not test for that either. The value of that feat is very low since any hit by mob that kills you on crit would probably kill you on non crit as well.