I personally like the new random queue, it not only seems to connect much quicker it has the tendency to weed out a few of the people who are only in it for the chest at the end and it sounds like it will encourage a lot of players who already have an area unlocked to help out other players, their friends and guildmates unlock those areas as well.
This is the dream, I have yet to see the dream in reality.
I personally like the new random queue, it not only seems to connect much quicker it has the tendency to weed out a few of the people who are only in it for the chest at the end and it sounds like it will encourage a lot of players who already have an area unlocked to help out other players, their friends and guildmates unlock those areas as well.
This is the dream, I have yet to see the dream in reality.
Probably true, but I'm of the opinion that we are a lot closer to that "dream" than we were before the random queues.
Hopefully higher level players who are truly upset with having to run low level dungeons with people of less skill and ability will unlock some of the prerequisite requirements and queue for dungeons where they won't have to put up with lesser experienced or equipped players.
i can run fast, but i dont because i was that other player. my main is a 9.8k TR. i used to make a reasonable amount of AD. two normal spider and two throne would net me 20-30k . tonight i ran a throne, got 900 for a new player bonus. then a random, cloak tower for 7900. so i could then do another random for 900. and thats it. nothing else gave any AD. I dont have a lot of time to do endless runs for salvage. so my main source of AD to buy gear has gone. as far as i am concerned if i dont get to choose what i want to do to earn my AD and enough of it, i really cant enjoy this anymore
I personally like the new random queue, it not only seems to connect much quicker it has the tendency to weed out a few of the people who are only in it for the chest at the end and it sounds like it will encourage a lot of players who already have an area unlocked to help out other players, their friends and guildmates unlock those areas as well.
This is the dream, I have yet to see the dream in reality.
Probably true, but I'm of the opinion that we are a lot closer to that "dream" than we were before the random queues.
Hopefully higher level players who are truly upset with having to run low level dungeons with people of less skill and ability will unlock some of the prerequisite requirements and queue for dungeons where they won't have to put up with lesser experienced or equipped players.
Which is fine for those already up in the 10K region. Ok, so it's not as easy as people keep saying for anyone not in a guild with good boons, but who cares...
It IS an issue for new players who are just hitting 70, and the suggestion "just improve" is a monumental ask when it involves completing CA and most of SKT.
What I would love to hear is the stories of how people with Random Queues PUGs of FBI and MSP are finding the acquisition of their daily RAD "faster" than when they ran 2 x EToS...
Anyone?
I mean... that WAS the goal wasn't it? FASTER acquisition of daily RAD???
I'm sure with such a well thought through system most FBI and MSP PUGs are flying through those dungeons, I'm just interested to know how fast they are doing so...
Faster aquisition of daily RAD was a goal? I think one of the goals was the opposite - cutting RAD from low geared ALTs to combat inflation caused by too easy 2x eToS / 2xeSoT on 8k toons.
I also dont know why people act as if normal dungeons didnt give AD anymore - they do give gear to salvage and if you craft your daily keys its pretty substantial - and random queues enable queueing for ALL dungeons way faster than before - good luck getting a VT queue as a DPS before 12b. Do they earn less than higher geared people? Yes. Is it unfair? No.
Also some time ago I came back after a year break and introduced Neverwinter to people I befriended in another game, so I have first hand experience how a genuine new player, without guild boons and 7k-9k ilvl feels about random queues. And you know what? They dont care they have to play a bit more for RAD cap. They enjoy the fact that their queue times are way shorter than before. None of them went for 2x etos / esot only, because at the beginning of the game all dungeons experience is so fresh they were queueing for everything, regardless of AD/hour, or anything like that.
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adinosiiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,294Arc User
I mean... that WAS the goal wasn't it? FASTER acquisition of daily RAD???
Nope. That was not the main goal.
Maybe it went something like this:
We have too many players complaining about waiting too long in a queue. Our analysis shows that this is for two reasons:
Some dungeons are not nearly as popular as others, so we need to funnel more players towards the less-popular dungeons so the queues pop more rapidly. Some classes do not queue often enough - we have too many DPSers and not enough healers and tanks.
Our totally brilliant solution will be to make people do random dungeons, which will make queues pop faster (and no, we are not going to bother checking if they actually complete the dungeons or not). Also, we will give an extra bonus to the under-represented roles (and no, we are not going to allow everyone to queue for the roles they want).
We will also take away the ability of people to queue with their friends (if they don't fit out 1+1+3 model) and get bonus AD, because who has any friends anyhow?
And yes, we are going to reduce the ability of small guilds to earn shards and progress because there are too many small guilds anyhow - let's just get rid of them.
Look in the "Epic Dungeon" list, not the "Random" list. You just need 7500 iLvl to do the T1s, and 8400 iLvl to do the T2.
You won't get any bonus RAD doing them. But you will get salvage. And each of the dungeons can drop a special gear that is higher iLvl than normal T2 gear. Getting some of them can make it easier to hit the 11K mark.
The problem is, that sub 11K characters used to be able to do two dungeons of their choice, get their daily RAD AND the salvage/chests et al.
Now they have to do one leveling dungeon AND the two dungeons of their choice to accumulate the same combined RAD and salvage.
I just want someone to explain how that situation improves any apect of their game play or makes it easier to hit the 11k Mark?
It's no HAMSTER different in terms of reward. They are not better off... they simply have to do an extra leveling dungeon, which is zero challenge, and in all likelihood will divert game time away from doing something they actually want to do instead. Plus the disparity in IL between them and any new sub 70 players trying to play the leveling dungeons as part of their introduction and growth within the game is only likely to make that experience a HAMSTER one.
I keep asking and no one seems able or willing to explain how this situation makes things better.
Yes and when I tried to clarify he means the Epic Dungeons, plasticbat said "No, he mean the dungeon section that is not within RQ. Those that have salvageable but no AD. "
But I have tried just selecting a normal Dungeon and still have not received anything salvageable. I suspect the person meant the Epic Dungeons but after plasticbat's comment I was no longer sure.
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plasticbatMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 12,223Arc User
Yes and when I tried to clarify he means the Epic Dungeons, plasticbat said "No, he mean the dungeon section that is not within RQ. Those that have salvageable but no AD. "
But I have tried just selecting a normal Dungeon and still have not received anything salvageable. I suspect the person meant the Epic Dungeons but after plasticbat's comment I was no longer sure.
I guess I wrote something confusing. I can be wrong. I think the classification before and after mod 12b are slightly different.
As of mod 12b, the level dungeons (below level 70) do not have anything salvageable (as far as I know but if once a while, one can find something shiny in a random chance, then I don't really know). Dungeon that is for level 70 does.
*** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
Assuming that the changes made to FBI and MSP chests worked, it should be the case that all of the 'Epic' dungeons (not just level 70 but also MC) will have guaranteed salvage, assuming you have a key for at least one of the chests.
If you don't have a key, KR and ESOT would still be guaranteed salvage with only a chance at boss drops in ths others.
"We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
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plasticbatMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 12,223Arc User
I like the Random Skirmish very much. But honestly the 12+ Dungeon for 7900 ad really is kind of dumb; like no skill or challenge even the slightest for any end game player.
They need to make Random 12+ Dungeon a 2000-2900 AD reward, for mostly new players.
Add Random (Endgame) Dungeon to be 7500 Dungeon's exclusively for the 7900 ad reward with chance of decent drops if a key is used.
Make Random Epic Dungeon's equal to / higher than 8400 at the least.
I just don't like having to do mostly 7 Cloak Tower dungeon's across my various toons to earn 7900 AD. It's just a silly way to waste an hour doing something which gives no reward's or even earns end game currency toward's campaign's...
I am not a kid and I don't need to be punished if I want to play the game the way I enjoy it. Now if I want to run epics I am literally forced to give up on AD reward and only go for salvage because if I am time pressed often and can't waste an hour in a dungeon. I have to afk often due to real life circumstances. Yes I can RQ with Guild / Alliance mates. But yet again, I can't waste too long in a dungeon. So I am forced to mess up 4 other people's game or just avoid RQ epics.
Then the whole fail thing of high geared lvl 70's still being forced to run leveling dungeons to get their bonus AD from there is also something they should have fixed ages ago. Everyone knows it's bullcrap.
Epic dungeons and skirmishes should have had a tier grouping, so you could RQ for different tiers. Same for skirmishes. But it's too much work to make the game fun to play and instead of making older content worthwhile playing still they come up with this idea just so their old failures still get played instead of ignored due to the fact they are as boring as hell in it's simplicity. Divide epics into tier groups, same for leveling dungeons, the higher the tier group the better the bonus AD so if you want to hit that sweet spot of bonus AD you have to sign up for the harder stuff. If you want the easier stuff you also take the lesser AD bonus. But no AD bonus? Really? Which Chimp rolled it's behind over a keyboard and came up with that idea?
If you want people to play content, don't give em an "do it or else no desert' kinda nonsense but make the content more attractive.
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arcanjo86Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,093Arc User
edited November 2017
random queue are firing faster for random epic dungeons if you are a tank or a healer, otherwise if ur a dps class, it takes too long, in private queue sw temptation +tank and 3dps we can survive t1 and t2 dungeons, idk about fbi/msp/tong, this random queue had so little data/info about classes builds/roles, the random queue bonus for healer role only is given if ur class is a dc or devotion pally, but not if you r1 on healer at the end of the dungeon xD, really dissapointing.
I remember when you had to run Regular Dread Vault for your Daily AD bonus from Rhix and thats all you got. Most people didn't do that either.
I don't mind random Skirmishes, I just wish Shores and Kessels were actually skirmishes again >_>
Random epic dungeon is a waste of time because anyone who is geared well enough to run it without sweating bullets at getting MSP or FBI random would be better served by just farming TONG instead.
There is no reason to do random epics unless you're really bored. T9G interests me because i can sell UES.. and I'm a DC so I'm never that bored anymore.
Relmyna - AC/DC Righteous + Haste| Nadine - CW MoF (working on it)|Buffy - GF SM Tact| Hrist - Justice Tankadin|Healadin (Wannabe Tank)| Lena -MI Sabo TR (Farmer) | Jeska - GWF SM Destroyer (Farmer) | Maggie - HR PF Trapper (Wannabe DPS)
--
I'll never retrace my steps.
I wanted to quit the game tonight. I was running as fast as I could, despite the two Speed Runners leaving me the monsters to deal with as the dashed toward the end of the dungeon. I died several times as I struggled to deal with the monsters they left for me. I sent both a message and spoke out loud that if they wanted this to go as quickly as possible they needed to not leave me to deal with everything. They just went to the end and then the real fun started. The comments started. I was too slow. Why was I in their dungeon. I didn't belong it the dungeon. I didn't need the AD, bu tthey needed to get moving beause they had things to do and I was holding them up. Keep in mind this was me in a leveling dungeon rated for my level.
Funny thing is, I am not really angry with them, disappointed yes, but not angry. What I am angry about is how did the Devs not see this was going to become the norm when they first began to plan the RQs. And how is it they still will not admit the RQ, as structured now is a mistake, and not good for the game.
If the amount of AD you received scaled with the length and difficulty of the dungeon then some of the speed folks would be drawn to the Epic dungeons for the larger payout. It just seems that would have been a better way to draw folks into underused content.
I wanted to quit the game tonight. I was running as fast as I could, despite the two Speed Runners leaving me the monsters to deal with as the dashed toward the end of the dungeon. I died several times as I struggled to deal with the monsters they left for me. I sent both a message and spoke out loud that if they wanted this to go as quickly as possible they needed to not leave me to deal with everything. They just went to the end and then the real fun started. The comments started. I was too slow. Why was I in their dungeon. I didn't belong it the dungeon. I didn't need the AD, bu tthey needed to get moving beause they had things to do and I was holding them up. Keep in mind this was me in a leveling dungeon rated for my level.
Funny thing is, I am not really angry with them, disappointed yes, but not angry. What I am angry about is how did the Devs not see this was going to become the norm when they first began to plan the RQs. And how is it they still will not admit the RQ, as structured now is a mistake, and not good for the game.
If the amount of AD you received scaled with the length and difficulty of the dungeon then some of the speed folks would be drawn to the Epic dungeons for the larger payout. It just seems that would have been a better way to draw folks into underused content.
It shouldn't reall matter whether they saw the problem coming, as it was pointed out that this would be the case, many, many, many times on the preview shard thread before it went live. The only people who benefit from this system over any other are people running sub 11K alts, which probably includes the muppets you encountered.
But, because so many people only care about themselves, it seems that greed and selfishness are now the prefered model, since nothing was even considered to overcome this problem.
As long as FBI and MSP pop faster, they don't really care. They will offer platitudes of sincere concern, and will "listen" and "take on board" and possibly even throw in quick fixes for issues that do not involve moving FBI and MSP out of Epic Queues, (which would see 8.4K+ characters able to enter ERQ and taking many away from leveling dungeons) but the closest they come to even aknowledging the problem of FBI and MSP is blaming the fact that they can't move up because Heroes Accord is only for the top gateway. Without explaining why that has to be the case considering how much grief would be avoided by moving FBI and MSP up a tier.
What I am angry about is how did the Devs not see this was going to become the norm when they first began to plan the RQs. And how is it they still will not admit the RQ, as structured now is a mistake, and not good for the game.
There is no way they didn't see this coming as they were warned by the community that this would be the outcome.
The fact of the matter is that they do not care what your experience is. What they care about is making the queues pop faster because that is a quantifiable result they can chart for someone.
The fact that one of them even had the audacity to say that "We believe the older players will step up and help the newer guys and build a better community" (i'm paraphrasing) just shows the level of arrogance that went into the design of the system.
Here's a fact, when your own community tell you that people will not help lower level players you might want to listen. The people stating this are the ones playing the game regularly. They know the community far better than the devs ever will. And this isn't even a neverwinter exclusive issue. This is a gaming issue.
When you get people on a tight timeline they are going to try to speed through.
When you put BiS level players into runs with lowbies, they are going to feel slowed down even if they want to help. The first 5-10 times maybe they say "I don't mind going slower" but on run number 11 it's going to be more like "I cant believe this is what i've spent all my time doing, lets hurry up here".
Sure, you're going to get some helpful players. But for the most part, you're not. You're going to get people that want to get the AD and move on.
All issues that would have been minimized by removing FBI and MSP from the queue they don't belong in.
All issues that would have been minimized by removing FBI and MSP from the queue they don't belong in.
And they seem unwilling to do that because of some arbitrary internal mindset that they want to hold to rather than admit they need to make this change.
Like I said in another thread, it would be a huge improvement if FBI and mSP were just taken out of the ERQ and left out of all RQs like Folly is. I think they can do even better than that, but I'll take what I can get.
Like I said in another thread, it would be a huge improvement if FBI and mSP were just taken out of the ERQ and left out of all RQs like Folly is. I think they can do even better than that, but I'll take what I can get.
And this is the worst part of it. They could do better but they stubbornly refuse to even bend on what is a logical fix to many problems with RQ. We're basically saying "hey, even though a lot of us think the RQ system was just poorly designed and has a shoddy implementation, we'll settle for removing MSP & FBI from REpicQ as a solution that would help us swallow using the system."
But there's some stubborn refusal to see logic when it's being plastered about your face repeatedly. This just reeks of someone with an attitude of "I'm the expert and you guys will do it this way because I know best and you're just players".
Comments
Hopefully higher level players who are truly upset with having to run low level dungeons with people of less skill and ability will unlock some of the prerequisite requirements and queue for dungeons where they won't have to put up with lesser experienced or equipped players.
Ok, so it's not as easy as people keep saying for anyone not in a guild with good boons, but who cares...
It IS an issue for new players who are just hitting 70, and the suggestion "just improve" is a monumental ask when it involves completing CA and most of SKT.
What I would love to hear is the stories of how people with Random Queues PUGs of FBI and MSP are finding the acquisition of their daily RAD "faster" than when they ran 2 x EToS...
Anyone?
I mean... that WAS the goal wasn't it? FASTER acquisition of daily RAD???
I'm sure with such a well thought through system most FBI and MSP PUGs are flying through those dungeons, I'm just interested to know how fast they are doing so...
I also dont know why people act as if normal dungeons didnt give AD anymore - they do give gear to salvage and if you craft your daily keys its pretty substantial - and random queues enable queueing for ALL dungeons way faster than before - good luck getting a VT queue as a DPS before 12b. Do they earn less than higher geared people? Yes. Is it unfair? No.
Also some time ago I came back after a year break and introduced Neverwinter to people I befriended in another game, so I have first hand experience how a genuine new player, without guild boons and 7k-9k ilvl feels about random queues. And you know what? They dont care they have to play a bit more for RAD cap. They enjoy the fact that their queue times are way shorter than before. None of them went for 2x etos / esot only, because at the beginning of the game all dungeons experience is so fresh they were queueing for everything, regardless of AD/hour, or anything like that.
Maybe it went something like this:
Some dungeons are not nearly as popular as others, so we need to funnel more players towards the less-popular dungeons so the queues pop more rapidly.
Some classes do not queue often enough - we have too many DPSers and not enough healers and tanks.
Our totally brilliant solution will be to make people do random dungeons, which will make queues pop faster (and no, we are not going to bother checking if they actually complete the dungeons or not). Also, we will give an extra bonus to the under-represented roles (and no, we are not going to allow everyone to queue for the roles they want).
We will also take away the ability of people to queue with their friends (if they don't fit out 1+1+3 model) and get bonus AD, because who has any friends anyhow?
And yes, we are going to reduce the ability of small guilds to earn shards and progress because there are too many small guilds anyhow - let's just get rid of them.
No, he mean the dungeon section that is not within RQ. Those that have salvageable but no AD.
You won't get any bonus RAD doing them. But you will get salvage. And each of the dungeons can drop a special gear that is higher iLvl than normal T2 gear. Getting some of them can make it easier to hit the 11K mark.
Now they have to do one leveling dungeon AND the two dungeons of their choice to accumulate the same combined RAD and salvage.
I just want someone to explain how that situation improves any apect of their game play or makes it easier to hit the 11k Mark?
It's no HAMSTER different in terms of reward. They are not better off... they simply have to do an extra leveling dungeon, which is zero challenge, and in all likelihood will divert game time away from doing something they actually want to do instead.
Plus the disparity in IL between them and any new sub 70 players trying to play the leveling dungeons as part of their introduction and growth within the game is only likely to make that experience a HAMSTER one.
I keep asking and no one seems able or willing to explain how this situation makes things better.
But I have tried just selecting a normal Dungeon and still have not received anything salvageable. I suspect the person meant the Epic Dungeons but after plasticbat's comment I was no longer sure.
As of mod 12b, the level dungeons (below level 70) do not have anything salvageable (as far as I know but if once a while, one can find something shiny in a random chance, then I don't really know).
Dungeon that is for level 70 does.
We are on the same page now though.
If you don't have a key, KR and ESOT would still be guaranteed salvage with only a chance at boss drops in ths others.
They need to make Random 12+ Dungeon a 2000-2900 AD reward, for mostly new players.
Add Random (Endgame) Dungeon to be 7500 Dungeon's exclusively for the 7900 ad reward with chance of decent drops if a key is used.
Make Random Epic Dungeon's equal to / higher than 8400 at the least.
I just don't like having to do mostly 7 Cloak Tower dungeon's across my various toons to earn 7900 AD. It's just a silly way to waste an hour doing something which gives no reward's or even earns end game currency toward's campaign's...
I am not a kid and I don't need to be punished if I want to play the game the way I enjoy it.
Now if I want to run epics I am literally forced to give up on AD reward and only go for salvage because if I am time pressed often and can't waste an hour in a dungeon. I have to afk often due to real life circumstances.
Yes I can RQ with Guild / Alliance mates.
But yet again, I can't waste too long in a dungeon. So I am forced to mess up 4 other people's game or just avoid RQ epics.
Then the whole fail thing of high geared lvl 70's still being forced to run leveling dungeons to get their bonus AD from there is also something they should have fixed ages ago.
Everyone knows it's bullcrap.
Epic dungeons and skirmishes should have had a tier grouping, so you could RQ for different tiers. Same for skirmishes.
But it's too much work to make the game fun to play and instead of making older content worthwhile playing still they come up with this idea just so their old failures still get played instead of ignored due to the fact they are as boring as hell in it's simplicity.
Divide epics into tier groups, same for leveling dungeons, the higher the tier group the better the bonus AD so if you want to hit that sweet spot of bonus AD you have to sign up for the harder stuff. If you want the easier stuff you also take the lesser AD bonus.
But no AD bonus? Really? Which Chimp rolled it's behind over a keyboard and came up with that idea?
If you want people to play content, don't give em an "do it or else no desert' kinda nonsense but make the content more attractive.
I don't mind random Skirmishes, I just wish Shores and Kessels were actually skirmishes again >_>
Random epic dungeon is a waste of time because anyone who is geared well enough to run it without sweating bullets at getting MSP or FBI random would be better served by just farming TONG instead.
There is no reason to do random epics unless you're really bored. T9G interests me because i can sell UES.. and I'm a DC so I'm never that bored anymore.
--
I'll never retrace my steps.
Some of my best friends are Imaginary.
Funny thing is, I am not really angry with them, disappointed yes, but not angry. What I am angry about is how did the Devs not see this was going to become the norm when they first began to plan the RQs. And how is it they still will not admit the RQ, as structured now is a mistake, and not good for the game.
If the amount of AD you received scaled with the length and difficulty of the dungeon then some of the speed folks would be drawn to the Epic dungeons for the larger payout. It just seems that would have been a better way to draw folks into underused content.
But, because so many people only care about themselves, it seems that greed and selfishness are now the prefered model, since nothing was even considered to overcome this problem.
As long as FBI and MSP pop faster, they don't really care. They will offer platitudes of sincere concern, and will "listen" and "take on board" and possibly even throw in quick fixes for issues that do not involve moving FBI and MSP out of Epic Queues, (which would see 8.4K+ characters able to enter ERQ and taking many away from leveling dungeons) but the closest they come to even aknowledging the problem of FBI and MSP is blaming the fact that they can't move up because Heroes Accord is only for the top gateway. Without explaining why that has to be the case considering how much grief would be avoided by moving FBI and MSP up a tier.
The fact of the matter is that they do not care what your experience is. What they care about is making the queues pop faster because that is a quantifiable result they can chart for someone.
The fact that one of them even had the audacity to say that "We believe the older players will step up and help the newer guys and build a better community" (i'm paraphrasing) just shows the level of arrogance that went into the design of the system.
Here's a fact, when your own community tell you that people will not help lower level players you might want to listen. The people stating this are the ones playing the game regularly. They know the community far better than the devs ever will. And this isn't even a neverwinter exclusive issue. This is a gaming issue.
When you get people on a tight timeline they are going to try to speed through.
When you put BiS level players into runs with lowbies, they are going to feel slowed down even if they want to help. The first 5-10 times maybe they say "I don't mind going slower" but on run number 11 it's going to be more like "I cant believe this is what i've spent all my time doing, lets hurry up here".
Sure, you're going to get some helpful players. But for the most part, you're not. You're going to get people that want to get the AD and move on.
All issues that would have been minimized by removing FBI and MSP from the queue they don't belong in.
But there's some stubborn refusal to see logic when it's being plastered about your face repeatedly. This just reeks of someone with an attitude of "I'm the expert and you guys will do it this way because I know best and you're just players".