> All you listed so far are not real counters, you realize it? You counter a mechanic with another mechanic.
> Usually, it should be attack vs dodge, as simple as that.
> When talking about TR vs GWF, there is no real mechanic you can use to defend. Timing avalanche is NOT a counter because you can use it 1 time, then get hit by next SoD proc AND it's also a cheesy autoproc piercing damage (no-skill) vs timing a daily (skill).
> Ambush ring? To make what you say (move just before SoD proc) you need a +4/+5 (fast stealth activation), or you would be just running around the whole time to activate the stealth effect up when needed). Players should, in your opinion, farm ambush ring +4/+5 and bring them back to PvP, before facing TRs, when TRs have their cheesy piercing autoproc handed to them with a simple build. So this "method" of yours is not a solution at all. Just an excuse.
> Classes with dodge can count to six and dodge. This is the only real counter.
> Hiding behind something after six seconds (if you have something close. Can't be done in all nodes, and TR can easily follow you with their dodge roll spam). Go stealth with forest ghost (HR) after counting to six (except forest ghost has a cooldown, longer than SoD proc).
> All require some focus to keep track of SoD procs while trying to catch the TR through their smoke/ITC/dodge roll/stealth spam, requires skill AND are btw influenced by latency. Because on one side you have a class that simply autoprocs piercing damage, with no skill needed, nothing needed. The game is doing all your job. On the other side, the other class must TIME its dodge/ invisibility through lag, to avoid the cheesy proc.
>
> The only method is timing dodge (for classes that have it) after 6 seconds. Even so, latency is a HAMSTER for some players. So on one side you still have no effort by the TR to autoproc his piercing cheese, while on the other side you've another class that has to keep focus, using timing and skill through latency.
> TRs should have their big damage from A) non piercing source some power that requires timing (no autoprocs).
>
> It's common sense.
Let's just say the skill of the trip is hitting you period. And yes there are encounters that stop shadow of demise.
Example easy cw can push the tr off node onto.lower.platform.
This conversation is over... we can waste time going back.and forth until I expose all the easy avoid methods or you can go play and learn them. This chat is pointless as we don't make changes or prevent changes by talking here... good day...
If TR is repeled from platform by CW it is very bad TR d(^.^)b.This is just embarrassing argument of yours. I know you don't want your class to be nerfed but stop defending broken mechanic, and learn to play because i saw you, you are weak TR in domi. Otherwise...repel wil disappear into oblivion in mod 12b.
Na it is the players that do not know how to avoid SOD just bad players and a lot of them it seems if you take a look at Tr kill ratios on leadboard, just press most KILLS as demonmonger say it it is just bad players
Didn't someone mention the killratio allready? This alone indicates something is disbalanced, same like hunter's piercing blade killed classes in the blink if an eye last mods. Run ACT , monitor the damage and witness the broken state of PVP after the 100's fix/rework. I did so, watching a Hunter dealing about 2-3 times the DPS than other striker >75% with piercing blade. It's broken , simple as that and it's an endless story. I predict: Next rework will not fix PVP.
First you cry about stealth (it's got A MASSIVE nerf), then you HAMSTER about SE (another MASSIVE nerf), then you whine about CB (guess what? ANOTHER MASSIVE NERF -50% CC time), now you throw a tantrum about SoD. Hey I have an idea! Let TRs fight with pillows and name-calling!
Just a reminder: SoD and BB can be dangerous when the TR has been buffed by another class (DC, GF etc) or when you (the target) has been debuffed. 99.9% of the times TRs did a lot of damage with SoD was due to buffs/debuffs, not with SoD alone. In that case ask for the nerf of buffs and debuffs of the other classes.
You don't like piercing damage? OK fine BUT then ask for a MASSIVE buff to the TR's encounter and at-will damage output, at the moment TRs are not even considered a dps class by most, only a "broken" pvp class.
Also while you are at it, remove piercing from HR, decrease the damage output of the GWFs and nerf unstoppable, make OPs ... well mortals ... like the rest of us, and do I need to say anything about the GFs' one-shot capability?
Keep in mind that if you had your HAMSTER handed to you in PVP by someone (of any class), that someone could have been exceptionally good at his/hers class and he/she is not the "norm". Judging by their (or your own) GS score alone, is not a measure of "power".
Get together the best of all classes (say 5 from each class) and test your theories. If one class repeatedly wipes the floor of all the other elites of their respective classes, then yes, by all mean you should nerf that class.
I suggest you enter pvp with any class and fight a SOD built Tr that knows what he is doing before you make a bigger fool out of yourself by writing this nonsence.
I have Hr,Gf and Op all 15k+ all with full pvp built loadouts and gear all die in seconds to same geared Trs in todays pvp even 1-1 with absolutly no chanse whatsoever.
Yestersday I myself with my Gf fought one of the better ones ( no names here) together with another of the absolute top Gfs and we both died 2-1 without even taking 50% of his hp off.
I saw several of the better pvp Cws being melted down not to mention the poor Dcs by Tr several 1000nds of IL lower.
Tr now have Kd ratio of over 100/1 and you talk about letting Tr fight with pillows, you clearly are as clueless as it comes.
Massive stealth nerf -- just lol....
Get your facts right and play a TR or at least study their skills/feats, it will help you well get a clue.
You are probably recent to the game since you don't know about the stealth nerf, to cut a long story short, before the nerf TRs could stay in stealth longer and use encouters without instantlly losing stealth.
SoD can be avoided, figure it out. TRs being hard to kill has nothing to do with SoD, its people stacking tons of recovery to allow them to spam Impossible To Catch (ITC), having said that, ITC and dodges are the only thing helping TRs not being squased like a fly, they can't hide behind shields, unstoppable, temporary HPs, heals, high HPs and/or AC etc ...
When I talk about other classes like HRs and GFs being overpowered I talk from experience, I also have a HR, a GF and a TR, all in the 15.5k+ range and one above 16k , so yeah I know. My chars would be hit by a nerf but just because it doesn't suit me it doesn't mean its not fair.
Now to the reall point, like I said, if you want to scrap piercing damage (and SoD with it) GREAT, BUT you have to give a high boost to the TRs damage output. Most TRs would be fine with that.
New to the game mm maby only played it since beta and stealth nerf dident do HAMSTER to balance Tr in pvp. It is stealth not invisiblity which is what you have and their been enough threads about your more then redicules survivability in pvp it is a joke nothing less.
Avoid SOD - yea that says all about how serious you are and tbh absolutly full of bs.
Get best Tr together with whatever you want no class can even come close to match that broken HAMSTER class as it is now.
Study their skill/feat/powers it is like asking somebody to study a machine gun before he enters the battle with a stick if you are serious I feel sorry not much more to add.
Tr might need some love in pve that is for another forum and has nothing to do with how the preform in pvp atm.
Take a good look at Kill ratio compare that to other classes - now if that do not stand out to you get glasses.
Played for 2 days after mod 12b all I can say am out until they fix this redicules bs.
Not one match of 20+ was it less then 3 Tr often it ended up with 5 after some left or got kicked now why is Tr the most common class in pvp on might ask but hey lets do what you say lets study the feat/powers and see if we can hit that invisible itc smokebombing dodgeing nuke that destroy you in a few seconds ...
PS just a hint Kill ladder place 1-20 have 10 Trs while the other 10 is devided among all other classes but hey it is a l2p issue isent it just lol
You keep bringing back the kill ratio and the survivability of the TR in a SoD related post. For the last time SoD has absolutely nothing to do with survivability, its the ITC combined with VERY high recovery stats. If you want to nerf the ITC, which I bet you will if you haven't already, then as you said regarding the PVE TR performance, thats a matter for another post.
Yeah SoD is "broken" because it stacks pre-mitigated damage like the HR's piercing but I don't see you complaining about that, thats the reason you don't see pvp TR/HRs stacking AP stat. Before the change SoD would proc mitigated damage and basically do "meh" damage. Still it can be avoided, you have 6 whole seconds to do so, while HR's piercing damage is instant and can't be avoided. Just pointing out that you don't seem to mind "broken" piercing damage when one of your alts does it, but no matter lets agree to stick to the SoD issue not other broken classes and powers (the list is looooooong).
For the last time, remove piercing damage from the game and conpensate the classes that lost it with something else. I know that some people will stick to their opinion no matter what, so I won't try or even care to convince you. I've given you a solution that removes the "broken" piercing damage and that most TRs wouldn't mind. Maybe you can be objective and contractive and offer fair solutions instated of just hating.
P.S. On the matter of TR;s long list of nerfs, I've forgotten the nerfing of a whole spec path, the Scoundrel one, like when the HR combat path was nerfed (and later brought back). t P.S2 The whisperknife main at-will, the disheartening strike, has also been nerfed specifically for pvp purposes, there seems to be no end to the nerfs the TRs have suffered
Yes my main is Hr and yes I did advocate for a nerf to piercing nm if it also affected the Hr class (exe, buffed plantgrowth etc had to go).
And yes am all for buffing other part of Tr if they need it ( tbh I have several Tr in my guild that tear most classes dps appart, the highest score I seen in CN (more runs to compare to) was from a Gwf but second from a Tr. I see both pve Cws and Tr that rival the best Hr and Gwfs as paingivers but I am no expert on either Tr or Cw in pve and I will not go into why and how they succeed where others lack.
SoD could even be somewhat ok if it came with some form of penaltry like not being able to ITC and Hide during it but it is wrong in many layers. It is impossible to prevent when fighting on mid node with many players, Tr are more or less (more) immortal in pvp at same time they are the best killers, it stands for itself its absurb.
The killed of AA and OP bubble+oath of protection with the notion of to much survivability and yet Tr still run around with x2 that kind of immortality, which would not bother so many if it wasen´t so that they are top killers also.....
On the notion of those nerf they where all needed and broken hence the nerf(Hr had its share of nerfs also and yes they where mostly needed also).
But just to clarify, I think TRs will need a damage boost if they loose the piercing damage NOT because they suffer in PVE (I hardly lose paingiver on my TR, except from some cases of 16k+ gwfs with lightining weapon enchants. TRs have a bad PVE rep because most TRs are mainly created for PVP and probobly dont even have a PVE loadout, gear and know-how to be competitive in PVE). In PVE however the damage comes mostly from lurker's assault daily combined with duelist fury against bosses and a combinations of WoB daily, first strike passive and an aoe encouter against groups of minions. However both strategies build up damage over time in a specific area, and require the targets to stay in that specific area. No PVPer in his/hers right mind would stay in such an area
For instance the duelist fury takes about 3 seconds just to get it started and once it starts you can't stop it or even dodge, it is useless if not suicidal (the no stopping or dodging part) in PVP unless the target is willing to stand there for several seconds and let you dps him/her.
Hence the PVP TRs would need to be given powers that can deliver high burst damage from close up (even our highest encouter damage, lashing blade, executed from stealth and first strike (best possible conditions) does "meh" damage against equally geared pvpers) and a bit less from a distance (its not a ranged class) and/or a DoT damage from a distance (TRs had that ranged DoT with wishperknife and disheartening strike and was nerfed to the ground).
I personally hate having to use SoD (and SE earlier) in PVP because it is cheese, but as a TR in PVP you are really not left with many other choices (scoundrel and wishperknife were the other choices and got nerfed too)
So the solution according to you is to make community use ambush+shadowclad. What a parody. @tolkienbuff should read your post, he probably would have something accurate to say to you in this regard.
One of the things that bothers me about this conversation, is the either /or nature of it. SOD has been debated back & forth for months. There have been several detailed dissections of the topic, with solutions offered, which were from my perspective, overly complicated. I'm looking at you, @tolkienbuff. The good thing about those complicated solutions was, they were coming from a place that wanted progress, and forward momentum. Most of the alternative which were offered, were very simple. Black or white. "Okay, go ahead & nerf SOD. Then we'll just stack recovery & spam CB! FTW!!!" Now it's "ambush+shadowclad." I'll admit, my TR alt gets less love than most of my other toons. I run with a simple, high deflect, AOE whisperknife build. This allows me to clear most solo content, so it's all good for me. I developed this build on my own because there are very few good builds that don't focus on one thing or another that are obviously OP & begging for a nerf. Why are there so few theory crafters looking into the TR? Rather than looking to replace one cheesy, one-trick pony build with another, shouldn't we be trying to find something that works? Preferably without exploiting broken powers, obviously.
kreatyveMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 10,545Community Moderator
We have removed quite a few comments that were very insulting and flaming in nature. While we realize that people are passionate about their classes, please keep the personal attacks out of it. Thanks!
My opinions are my own. I do not work for PWE or Cryptic. - Forum Rules - Protector's Enclave Discord - I play on Xbox Any of my comments not posted in orange are based on my own personal opinion and not official. Any messages written in orange are official moderation messages. Signature images are now fixed!
So the solution according to you is to make community use ambush+shadowclad. What a parody. @tolkienbuff should read your post, he probably would have something accurate to say to you in this regard.
I think the alternatives offered speak for themselves. Use poorly designed and badly implemented fixes for a poorly designed and badly applied damage band aid.
I don't blame TRs for using what they have available. I place the blame squarely on those making decisions on how to correct for poor damage in PVP by adding piercing damage. Every time piercing damage is added it is a cheap band aid for poor DPS and it breaks in PVP where defenses are all you have.
Fix TRs with damage buffs instead of piercing damage. Most importantly, and to fix SoD in the meantime, the procs of damage should never be unavoidable. I.E. if you didn't take the damage by blocking, dodging, sprinting, or any other method of damage avoidance... You shouldn't be punished with that damage as an unavoidable procc.
The entire fun of PVP has always been knowing when to defend with your class mechanic and when to attack the other classes vulnerabilities. Making damage unavoidable moots this point out.
As far as TRs that rush to defend SoD and how it can be avoided. I understand being afraid your class will be nerfed into uselessness. However, dishonesty in class mechanics is never something I think is good for the game. As a TR myself, I would and do ask for mechanics that require skill and not cheap tactics to accomplish my goals.
In both PVE and PVP TRs need a damage buff, but it must be able to be mitigated and dodged. Piercing damage is the worst sort, unavoidable piercing damage is an insult to players.
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
So the solution according to you is to make community use ambush+shadowclad. What a parody. @tolkienbuff should read your post, he probably would have something accurate to say to you in this regard.
I think the alternatives offered speak for themselves. Use poorly designed and badly implemented fixes for a poorly designed and badly applied damage band aid.
I don't blame TRs for using what they have available. I place the blame squarely on those making decisions on how to correct for poor damage in PVP by adding piercing damage. Every time piercing damage is added it is a cheap band aid for poor DPS and it breaks in PVP where defenses are all you have.
Fix TRs with damage buffs instead of piercing damage. Most importantly, and to fix SoD in the meantime, the procs of damage should never be unavoidable. I.E. if you didn't take the damage by blocking, dodging, sprinting, or any other method of damage avoidance... You shouldn't be punished with that damage as an unavoidable procc.
The entire fun of PVP has always been knowing when to defend with your class mechanic and when to attack the other classes vulnerabilities. Making damage unavoidable moots this point out.
As far as TRs that rush to defend SoD and how it can be avoided. I understand being afraid your class will be nerfed into uselessness. However, dishonesty in class mechanics is never something I think is good for the game. As a TR myself, I would and do ask for mechanics that require skill and not cheap tactics to accomplish my goals.
In both PVE and PVP TRs need a damage buff, but it must be able to be mitigated and dodged. Piercing damage is the worst sort, unavoidable piercing damage is an insult to players.
I know TR's who are main dps in TO9G and they can easy make 2 billion of DPS just like GWF. Their damage in pve is fine.
I know geriatrics who can walk 800 meters just fine. I'm sure that means that the geriatric group is just fine and can compete with Usain Bolt. ...
FFS, what the total pain-giver has to do something with anything in an (almost) zero sum run. Finishing 800 meters (your 2 billion) doesn't make you Usain Bolt... Doing it in under 2min will.
So the solution according to you is to make community use ambush+shadowclad. What a parody. @tolkienbuff should read your post, he probably would have something accurate to say to you in this regard.
I think the alternatives offered speak for themselves. Use poorly designed and badly implemented fixes for a poorly designed and badly applied damage band aid.
I don't blame TRs for using what they have available. I place the blame squarely on those making decisions on how to correct for poor damage in PVP by adding piercing damage. Every time piercing damage is added it is a cheap band aid for poor DPS and it breaks in PVP where defenses are all you have.
Fix TRs with damage buffs instead of piercing damage. Most importantly, and to fix SoD in the meantime, the procs of damage should never be unavoidable. I.E. if you didn't take the damage by blocking, dodging, sprinting, or any other method of damage avoidance... You shouldn't be punished with that damage as an unavoidable procc.
The entire fun of PVP has always been knowing when to defend with your class mechanic and when to attack the other classes vulnerabilities. Making damage unavoidable moots this point out.
As far as TRs that rush to defend SoD and how it can be avoided. I understand being afraid your class will be nerfed into uselessness. However, dishonesty in class mechanics is never something I think is good for the game. As a TR myself, I would and do ask for mechanics that require skill and not cheap tactics to accomplish my goals.
In both PVE and PVP TRs need a damage buff, but it must be able to be mitigated and dodged. Piercing damage is the worst sort, unavoidable piercing damage is an insult to players.
I know TR's who are main dps in TO9G and they can easy make 2 billion of DPS just like GWF. Their damage in pve is fine.
Without pitting GWF vs TR with same group in dungeon with multi runs this is not the way to "prove" damage equality amongst DPS classes. This is also with SoD the way it currently is. I'm suggesting changes to SoD and giving damage buffs instead of piercing damage.
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
So the solution according to you is to make community use ambush+shadowclad. What a parody. @tolkienbuff should read your post, he probably would have something accurate to say to you in this regard.
I think the alternatives offered speak for themselves. Use poorly designed and badly implemented fixes for a poorly designed and badly applied damage band aid.
I don't blame TRs for using what they have available. I place the blame squarely on those making decisions on how to correct for poor damage in PVP by adding piercing damage. Every time piercing damage is added it is a cheap band aid for poor DPS and it breaks in PVP where defenses are all you have.
Fix TRs with damage buffs instead of piercing damage. Most importantly, and to fix SoD in the meantime, the procs of damage should never be unavoidable. I.E. if you didn't take the damage by blocking, dodging, sprinting, or any other method of damage avoidance... You shouldn't be punished with that damage as an unavoidable procc.
The entire fun of PVP has always been knowing when to defend with your class mechanic and when to attack the other classes vulnerabilities. Making damage unavoidable moots this point out.
As far as TRs that rush to defend SoD and how it can be avoided. I understand being afraid your class will be nerfed into uselessness. However, dishonesty in class mechanics is never something I think is good for the game. As a TR myself, I would and do ask for mechanics that require skill and not cheap tactics to accomplish my goals.
In both PVE and PVP TRs need a damage buff, but it must be able to be mitigated and dodged. Piercing damage is the worst sort, unavoidable piercing damage is an insult to players.
I know TR's who are main dps in TO9G and they can easy make 2 billion of DPS just like GWF. Their damage in pve is fine.
Without pitting GWF vs TR with same group in dungeon with multi runs this is not the way to "prove" damage equality amongst DPS classes. This is also with SoD the way it currently is. I'm suggesting changes to SoD and giving damage buffs instead of piercing damage.
I am more then certain that end game Tr can rival any class in damage I see it every day.
Now the question is why there is a general consensus that Tr has a low pve damage.
The best Tr in form of dps I know have 2 loadouts and even 2 different weapon enchants for clearing trash and boss fights some even switch out companions on boss fights.
Now this is ofc not the norm and if that is the case for making the Tr a valid striker class it is to much to ask.
Gwf need a certain IL to become the monster dps they are can it be that Tr also has a high gear demand but once there they become valid.
The problem is that when you buff a class base damage it can very easely get out of hand with the very best geared or skilled ones.
As it is now the survivability of Tr in pvp is game breaking as they are unkillable with the best damage and the best cc of all classes.
I am all for boosting any class dps in pve if needed just do not make the misstake of taking away the piercing damage and give them very high damage in pvp because if you are to be the best defensive class in pvp you should by no means be the best dps.
1) As tanky GF protector I would recomend to you to get more defence. You lost more that 30% hp only from TR's daily and usual attacks. Seems like you have about 10k defence like most of dd tanks have. This is the first reason I suppose. Just increase your defence to 20k or at least 15k to feel better under incoming damage. Now TR just can deal good damage to you even without SoD because your defence isn't so high. Also you have elven battle enhancement so with negation enhancement you would be much more tanky.
2) You have to use more healing (wheel of elements at least). Heal that ticks every second helps to dont die being catched.
3) You play conquerror. It isn't the most tanky build. So, it is evident tat GFs in your build can absorb less amounts of damage. You have to think about different debuffs that decrease foe's damage (set of Valhalla for example). Also at this video you didn't used your feytouched enhancement. Set of Valhalla and feytouched enchantment would reduce incoming damage additionally at 35%.
Overall SoD is really op and it is partly broken but not less important reason of your complaint is your build in my opinion.
If I needed help on how to decrease mitigateable damage I'd make sure I'd ask people in the know for it. I'm not, I'm showing the obvious, the piercing damage at the end is extreme and unavoidable. Thanks for your tips, however they are off topic. This, as I said, is not a true 1v1, it's an example of the SoD procc.
Thanks for your time.
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
So the solution according to you is to make community use ambush+shadowclad. What a parody. @tolkienbuff should read your post, he probably would have something accurate to say to you in this regard.
I think the alternatives offered speak for themselves. Use poorly designed and badly implemented fixes for a poorly designed and badly applied damage band aid.
I don't blame TRs for using what they have available. I place the blame squarely on those making decisions on how to correct for poor damage in PVP by adding piercing damage. Every time piercing damage is added it is a cheap band aid for poor DPS and it breaks in PVP where defenses are all you have.
Fix TRs with damage buffs instead of piercing damage. Most importantly, and to fix SoD in the meantime, the procs of damage should never be unavoidable. I.E. if you didn't take the damage by blocking, dodging, sprinting, or any other method of damage avoidance... You shouldn't be punished with that damage as an unavoidable procc.
The entire fun of PVP has always been knowing when to defend with your class mechanic and when to attack the other classes vulnerabilities. Making damage unavoidable moots this point out.
As far as TRs that rush to defend SoD and how it can be avoided. I understand being afraid your class will be nerfed into uselessness. However, dishonesty in class mechanics is never something I think is good for the game. As a TR myself, I would and do ask for mechanics that require skill and not cheap tactics to accomplish my goals.
In both PVE and PVP TRs need a damage buff, but it must be able to be mitigated and dodged. Piercing damage is the worst sort, unavoidable piercing damage is an insult to players.
You hit the nail on the head for this post, good job
-- PVP Rogue, --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]-- ---------------------------------------------------------------- Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin) Ingame Handle: trgluestickz Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563 Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud Platform: PC
0
demonmongerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,350Arc User
All the feats I use on sab path that say piercing damage are mitigated...
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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Comments
This alone indicates something is disbalanced, same like hunter's piercing blade killed classes in the blink if an eye last mods.
Run ACT , monitor the damage and witness the broken state of PVP after the 100's fix/rework. I did so, watching a Hunter dealing about 2-3 times the DPS than other striker >75% with piercing blade. It's broken , simple as that and it's an endless story.
I predict: Next rework will not fix PVP.
And yes am all for buffing other part of Tr if they need it ( tbh I have several Tr in my guild that tear most classes dps appart, the highest score I seen in CN (more runs to compare to) was from a Gwf but second from a Tr. I see both pve Cws and Tr that rival the best Hr and Gwfs as paingivers but I am no expert on either Tr or Cw in pve and I will not go into why and how they succeed where others lack.
SoD could even be somewhat ok if it came with some form of penaltry like not being able to ITC and Hide during it but it is wrong in many layers. It is impossible to prevent when fighting on mid node with many players, Tr are more or less (more) immortal in pvp at same time they are the best killers, it stands for itself its absurb.
The killed of AA and OP bubble+oath of protection with the notion of to much survivability and yet Tr still run around with x2 that kind of immortality, which would not bother so many if it wasen´t so that they are top killers also.....
On the notion of those nerf they where all needed and broken hence the nerf(Hr had its share of nerfs also and yes they where mostly needed also).
But just to clarify, I think TRs will need a damage boost if they loose the piercing damage NOT because they suffer in PVE (I hardly lose paingiver on my TR, except from some cases of 16k+ gwfs with lightining weapon enchants. TRs have a bad PVE rep because most TRs are mainly created for PVP and probobly dont even have a PVE loadout, gear and know-how to be competitive in PVE). In PVE however the damage comes mostly from lurker's assault daily combined with duelist fury against bosses and a combinations of WoB daily, first strike passive and an aoe encouter against groups of minions. However both strategies build up damage over time in a specific area, and require the targets to stay in that specific area. No PVPer in his/hers right mind would stay in such an area
For instance the duelist fury takes about 3 seconds just to get it started and once it starts you can't stop it or even dodge, it is useless if not suicidal (the no stopping or dodging part) in PVP unless the target is willing to stand there for several seconds and let you dps him/her.
Hence the PVP TRs would need to be given powers that can deliver high burst damage from close up (even our highest encouter damage, lashing blade, executed from stealth and first strike (best possible conditions) does "meh" damage against equally geared pvpers) and a bit less from a distance (its not a ranged class) and/or a DoT damage from a distance (TRs had that ranged DoT with wishperknife and disheartening strike and was nerfed to the ground).
I personally hate having to use SoD (and SE earlier) in PVP because it is cheese, but as a TR in PVP you are really not left with many other choices (scoundrel and wishperknife were the other choices and got nerfed too)
Any of my comments not posted in orange are based on my own personal opinion and not official.
Any messages written in orange are official moderation messages. Signature images are now fixed!
I don't blame TRs for using what they have available. I place the blame squarely on those making decisions on how to correct for poor damage in PVP by adding piercing damage. Every time piercing damage is added it is a cheap band aid for poor DPS and it breaks in PVP where defenses are all you have.
Fix TRs with damage buffs instead of piercing damage. Most importantly, and to fix SoD in the meantime, the procs of damage should never be unavoidable. I.E. if you didn't take the damage by blocking, dodging, sprinting, or any other method of damage avoidance... You shouldn't be punished with that damage as an unavoidable procc.
The entire fun of PVP has always been knowing when to defend with your class mechanic and when to attack the other classes vulnerabilities. Making damage unavoidable moots this point out.
As far as TRs that rush to defend SoD and how it can be avoided. I understand being afraid your class will be nerfed into uselessness. However, dishonesty in class mechanics is never something I think is good for the game. As a TR myself, I would and do ask for mechanics that require skill and not cheap tactics to accomplish my goals.
In both PVE and PVP TRs need a damage buff, but it must be able to be mitigated and dodged. Piercing damage is the worst sort, unavoidable piercing damage is an insult to players.
FFS, what the total pain-giver has to do something with anything in an (almost) zero sum run.
Finishing 800 meters (your 2 billion) doesn't make you Usain Bolt... Doing it in under 2min will.
Now the question is why there is a general consensus that Tr has a low pve damage.
The best Tr in form of dps I know have 2 loadouts and even 2 different weapon enchants for clearing trash and boss fights some even switch out companions on boss fights.
Now this is ofc not the norm and if that is the case for making the Tr a valid striker class it is to much to ask.
Gwf need a certain IL to become the monster dps they are can it be that Tr also has a high gear demand but once there they become valid.
The problem is that when you buff a class base damage it can very easely get out of hand with the very best geared or skilled ones.
As it is now the survivability of Tr in pvp is game breaking as they are unkillable with the best damage and the best cc of all classes.
I am all for boosting any class dps in pve if needed just do not make the misstake of taking away the piercing damage and give them very high damage in pvp because if you are to be the best defensive class in pvp you should by no means be the best dps.
Thanks for your time.
PVP Rogue,
--[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
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Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
Platform: PC