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Shadow of Demise example
ltgamesttv
Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,438 Arc User
Sometimes visuals aid in giving an idea of what is going on and grant perspective. Anyone who has PVPd knows what TRs Shadow of demise is like. I'm hoping to show what it looks like in game. This is not a 1v1, you can see I don't try terribly not to get dazed, but it's what can happen in a match. Selu graciously volunteered to kill me, he's a full PVE TR atm, not PVP spec, didn't matter. My GF is basically BIS for PVP, 213K HP I believe, here's what the scenario looks like:
https://youtube.com/watch?v=TOeoKmG_INc
While I know the tendency is to critique "well that wouldn't happen in a real match, you could've _____" this is more about demonstrating when a class gets caught off guard and the extreme damage when SoD proccs.
@sgrantdev @rgutscheradev @terramak
https://youtube.com/watch?v=TOeoKmG_INc
While I know the tendency is to critique "well that wouldn't happen in a real match, you could've _____" this is more about demonstrating when a class gets caught off guard and the extreme damage when SoD proccs.
@sgrantdev @rgutscheradev @terramak
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
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Comments
Wanted to post something about SoD but pretty much avoided it. But yeah. SoD is not as bad as old SE for GWF, but still i don't like the mechanics.
Huge piercing damage procs...i don't like them. It should be extra damage, small procs.
I said it multiple times...NW combat system is amazing, could be amazing, but it should have 3 cardinal points: aim, time, dodge. You land you attack if you time and aim correctly. You avoid/ mitigate damage if you time your dodge. This is what allows player's skill to shine. Right now, we've stuff that simply can bypass a player skill to dodge (example: CB of TRs, or piercing damage vs GWFs), control is useless (poor CWs), and auto-aim for many powers that simply make all the work. Some classes have most encounters and at-wills, that use auto-aim. Takes away most of the skill from the combat system. Players simply spam stuff because there's no need to time, aim or dodge really. Either because you can spam dodges, or your attacks aim automatically, or your damage can simply ignore a dodge or a shift ability.
Gf can stop bloodbath... Gf are combo proof...
> The video doe's not show the reality of the power in the first part... but the second part whereally you don't lose so much life is usually what happens with sod.
>
>
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> Gf can stop bloodbath... Gf are combo proof...
>
> Yep first part must be fake by videoedit for sure and Tr is not like combo proof they die when you look at them not to mention they can not do damage and their cc is very easy to avoid isen't that the truth of the day Mr Demonmonger
That's not what I am saying but thank you for trying to make light of a serious matter.
Hiding behind some element of the map is not a real solution either. Anything that forces you to use a specific item or piece of gear to counter a mechanic, is not a solution. It's mechanic vs mechanic. Not "use a stupid and broken piece of gear to counter a broken mechanic".
Mechanics should be balanced. TRs must have encounter damage buffed AND respecting every shift mechanic, with piercing damage being only a small part of the overall damage. Same goes for HRs (and i play an HR too).
CB mechanic is also flawed. I'd rather buff the daily but make it respect dodges/ shift mechanics.
Players must learn to time their attacks, instead of spamming stuff because it pierces through everything.
And TRs should just keep asking for damage buff and removal of such stupid mechanics. Instead, they keep defending massive piercing damage or piercing CC, and the devs keep reworking the class around such mechanics to please the players, imho.
> Using a broken invisibility ring is not really a solution. The item itself should not be in the game.
>
> Hiding behind some element of the map is not a real solution either.
> It's like good old times of permastealth TR, when people said you could fight a perma TR: you just needed to learn to guess where the TR was. While it was true, it was not balanced. Because on one side you had an easy permastealth mechanic, and on the other the other player who got to learn to find something invisible.
>
> Mechanics should be balanced. TRs must have encounter damage buffed AND respecting every shift mechanic, with piercing damage being only a small part of the overall damage. Same goes for HRs (and i play an HR too).
> CB mechanic is also flawed. I'd rather buff the daily but make it respect dodges/ shift mechanics.
> Players must learn to time their attacks, instead of spamming stuff because it pierces through everything.
To kill a permanent stealth you just needed mobility and target lock...
Not guess where there were. You would see them 100%
Every class has something that's out of balance majorly.... I don't use shadow of demise... and there are some classes out of balance I just can't kill. (Solo)
But I'm not here screaming over it..
Seriously wake up and smell the coffee now ....
Or are you suggesting that players can see SoD incomming and can avoid it when fighting on nodes or avoiding it when cced with smoke etc.
You through around stupid accusations about the Gf class and lie avoid and try to use falsehood to diminish the absolute broken state of the Tr class in pvp when it comes to damage cc and suriving.
Accusing GF for being able to take to much damage and defending Trs ridicules defensive capabilities and at the same time writing post after post about Gfs damage and then tell players to learn to avoid SOD often used from hide or at incapacitated victims.
So in short my guess is that you are a troll that are incapable of being objective in fact its not a guess its a proven fact.
Gf need adjusting in some areas but they are not even close to the laughable broken state of the Tr class by miles...
(Sorry for my bad english grammar)
(note) I listed a mechanic vs a mechanic more than once.
It's always the same crowd saying nerf stuff in these forums.
On the other side, there are always players that try to say that broken stuff on their class is ok because A)there's some extreme/borderline method to counter said broken stuff, or
The ambush ring stuff and the avalanche daily stuff (again. after SE stupidity, we're back at the "time your daily to save yourself from our broken autoproccing damage/ piercing cheese") made my day. If these are your "methods" to counter SoD, i'm sorry but i can't agree with you.
Piercing damage is stupid, wrong and heavily flattens the combat system of the game. Should be relegated to a small amount to boost normal damage. Instead, the devs keep trying to make it the main source of damage for some classes, creating obvious, and huge, imbalancies.
Please stop defending cheesy stuff. It's ruining the combat system. Aim, time and dodge/shift must not be assisted or bypassed.
Or you mean among all the other noise ?
> This post is not about TRs as a whole, just a demonstration of SoD and it's proc. However, I must interject that target lock has never worked on stealthed targets. You're simply wrong.
>
> I don't know about now, but hard target lock worked on stealth targets.
> Or are you suggesting that players can see SoD incomming
>
> Wont say about avoiding, or etc.. But is there a specific reason not to see it coming ? You get hit by the TR, you count to six..
> Or you mean among all the other noise ?
Ty micky1p00. I hate when people call me a false mouth. Your timing was perfect fefense, and shows that some who claim they are in the know are not.
Also I was not defending sod, I was saying what you see in the first part of the video is not the norm. The second time where sod takes less damage is the norm. Just be honest I''s what I'm saying.
Target lock doesn't work now afaik, at least not the simple +hardtargetlock, the named one may still be working, didn't try it.
++hardtargetlock $$ target
But it indeed worked (I'm 99.9999999% sure of that), so "never" is not correct either. I think it was changed around the TR rework ? Not sure, I've died plenty to it, but by the time it was changed I was no longer PvPing.
Perhaps someone has old videos.
Here is an example, you can clearly see hard target loses the lock:
https://youtu.be/0KgshIpR8ys
Addendum: Certain PVP players were suspected of using third party sites to follow TRs. This was a debate in mod 5 amongst PVP guilds. There are at least 2 bots that boast that abiility. Perhaps, not for certain, this is what you experienced and assumed it was hard target lock.
As for your other statements about using rings, or dialies, or what have you to "avoid" SoD. It's not the point of the post. The damage done to me was from a PVE TR performing the normal rotoation with SoD, except 1 thing. He didn't have enough recovery to get the second dazing strike off when his rotation was over because he doesn't stack recovery like PVP TRs. That's why I didn't die from the rotation.
It was another of the "non-solutions" along with the "learn to predict where the invisible TR is", which was basically a "train a lot your personal prediction skills to guess where an invisible enemy is, while your enemy must only press buttons and play safe in permastealth".
Same as "time your avalanche with SE", all these are extreme adaptations made by players through skill, to compensate no-skill broken mechanics.
> It still works.. the only time you lose target is vs shadow clad proc...
>
> If I'm wrong I'm willing to accept it, can you demonstrate it? As you can see, we are unable to reproduce your expected results. As long as I've played in PVP, I can't remember a time when hard target lock worked any different than what is demonstrated in the video.
>
> As for your other statements about using rings, or dialies, or what have you to "avoid" SoD. It's not the point of the post. The damage done to me was from a PVE TR performing the normal rotoation with SoD, except 1 thing. He didn't have enough recovery to get the second dazing strike off when his rotation was over because he doesn't stack recovery like PVP TRs. That's why I didn't die from the rotation.
But you already know they are remoting tenacity and sod works off premitigated damage so why even say pve tr?
> Hmm, so I was thinking how ambush ring is going to help when CB is active on you? Full DPS speced TRs with CB combo could melt GWF health to zero in seconds and yes I have tested that. Btw, it is just so low to use broken stuff to get win, I haven't used any of those items since beta and won't use it.
Just showing easy options... there are many more ways to stop sod...
there is an item / cloak that grants invisibility to a player once every 10 mins/ few hours ( i dont remember the duration ) obtained by some players in alpha / beta (possibly for being a completion to content and possibly still available ) ....yup there is one of the secret ones ..... ya so once per pvp match you can use it lol some one will mention the name of it here soon enough ...
i guess ring of vanishing presence is also on the list ...
come on now share with the rest of us ... : D
> @demonmonger
> there is an item / cloak that grants invisibility to a player once every 10 mins/ few hours ( i dont remember the duration ) obtained by some players in alpha / beta (possibly for being a completion to content and possibly still available ) ....yup there is one of the secret ones ..... ya so once per pvp match you can use it lol some one will mention the name of it here soon enough ...
>
> i guess ring of vanishing presence is also on the list ...
> come on now share with the rest of us ... : D
That's is one way... but keep counting... didn't want to say this one because all.can't use it.
Usually, it should be attack vs dodge, as simple as that.
When talking about TR vs GWF, there is no real mechanic you can use to defend. Timing avalanche is NOT a counter because you can use it 1 time, then get hit by next SoD proc AND it's also a cheesy autoproc piercing damage (no-skill) vs timing a daily (skill).
Ambush ring? To make what you say (move just before SoD proc) you need a +4/+5 (fast stealth activation), or you would be just running around the whole time to activate the stealth effect up when needed). Players should, in your opinion, farm ambush ring +4/+5 and bring them back to PvP, before facing TRs, when TRs have their cheesy piercing autoproc handed to them with a simple build. So this "method" of yours is not a solution at all. Just an excuse.
Classes with dodge can count to six and dodge. This is the only real counter.
Hiding behind something after six seconds (if you have something close. Can't be done in all nodes, and TR can easily follow you with their dodge roll spam). Go stealth with forest ghost (HR) after counting to six (except forest ghost has a cooldown, longer than SoD proc).
All require some focus to keep track of SoD procs while trying to catch the TR through their smoke/ITC/dodge roll/stealth spam, requires skill AND are btw influenced by latency. Because on one side you have a class that simply autoprocs piercing damage, with no skill needed, nothing needed. The game is doing all your job. On the other side, the other class must TIME its dodge/ invisibility through lag, to avoid the cheesy proc.
The only method is timing dodge (for classes that have it) after 6 seconds. Even so, latency is a HAMSTER for some players. So on one side you still have no effort by the TR to autoproc his piercing cheese, while on the other side you've another class that has to keep focus, using timing and skill through latency.
TRs should have their big damage from A) non piercing source
It's common sense.
> All you listed so far are not real counters, you realize it? You counter a mechanic with another mechanic.
> Usually, it should be attack vs dodge, as simple as that.
> When talking about TR vs GWF, there is no real mechanic you can use to defend. Timing avalanche is NOT a counter because you can use it 1 time, then get hit by next SoD proc AND it's also a cheesy autoproc piercing damage (no-skill) vs timing a daily (skill).
> Ambush ring? To make what you say (move just before SoD proc) you need a +4/+5 (fast stealth activation), or you would be just running around the whole time to activate the stealth effect up when needed). Players should, in your opinion, farm ambush ring +4/+5 and bring them back to PvP, before facing TRs, when TRs have their cheesy piercing autoproc handed to them with a simple build. So this "method" of yours is not a solution at all. Just an excuse.
> Classes with dodge can count to six and dodge. This is the only real counter.
> Hiding behind something after six seconds (if you have something close. Can't be done in all nodes, and TR can easily follow you with their dodge roll spam). Go stealth with forest ghost (HR) after counting to six (except forest ghost has a cooldown, longer than SoD proc).
> All require some focus to keep track of SoD procs while trying to catch the TR through their smoke/ITC/dodge roll/stealth spam, requires skill AND are btw influenced by latency. Because on one side you have a class that simply autoprocs piercing damage, with no skill needed, nothing needed. The game is doing all your job. On the other side, the other class must TIME its dodge/ invisibility through lag, to avoid the cheesy proc.
>
> The only method is timing dodge (for classes that have it) after 6 seconds. Even so, latency is a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> for some players. So on one side you still have no effort by the TR to autoproc his piercing cheese, while on the other side you've another class that has to keep focus, using timing and skill through latency.
> TRs should have their big damage from A) non piercing source
>
> It's common sense.
Let's just say the skill of the trip is hitting you period. And yes there are encounters that stop shadow of demise.
Example easy cw can push the tr off node onto.lower.platform.
This conversation is over... we can waste time going back.and forth until I expose all the easy avoid methods or you can go play and learn them. This chat is pointless as we don't make changes or prevent changes by talking here... good day...