With this false "meta" we don't really have DPS classes anymore We have buff receivers
If a AC/DC buffs 3 DPS classes for as much power as they normally has, that's a pretty impressive boost to their damage If that DC buffs their bonding companions for that much power and then they receive it back from companion's gift multiplied by 3, well now that's just unrealistic and overpowered, though it doesn't necessarily follow that 1 overbuffed DPS is better then 3 overbuffed DPSers
With the "meta," when the AC/DC overbuffs the one DPS, she's also overbuffing the other cleric, the OP and the GF, which in turn are also buffing everyone else for massively increased amounts of, well, everything... which you couldn't get if you were just overbuffing the power on 3 DPSers (unless, of course, they were more focused on what they could bring for the team and less on personal damage)
There is no 2 DC Problem... if there is a problem at all, its much larger than something than can be blamed on DCs, and DCs should not bear the brunt of whatever gets done to fix this
In fact, instead of relying on devs to change the way ANY classes work or work together, maybe the DPS people that feel left out of end game content should start by figuring out what they could bring to a party so they might compete with that second tank and one of the DCs
they could make more DC's..... XD
Nonsense! We cannot disrupt the status quo!
Lazy DPSers are entitled to be lazy because they have lots of epeen and all support players should be grateful somebody is carrying their lazy arses!
With this false "meta" we don't really have DPS classes anymore We have buff receivers
If a AC/DC buffs 3 DPS classes for as much power as they normally has, that's a pretty impressive boost to their damage If that DC buffs their bonding companions for that much power and then they receive it back from companion's gift multiplied by 3, well now that's just unrealistic and overpowered, though it doesn't necessarily follow that 1 overbuffed DPS is better then 3 overbuffed DPSers
With the "meta," when the AC/DC overbuffs the one DPS, she's also overbuffing the other cleric, the OP and the GF, which in turn are also buffing everyone else for massively increased amounts of, well, everything... which you couldn't get if you were just overbuffing the power on 3 DPSers (unless, of course, they were more focused on what they could bring for the team and less on personal damage)
There is no 2 DC Problem... if there is a problem at all, its much larger than something than can be blamed on DCs, and DCs should not bear the brunt of whatever gets done to fix this
In fact, instead of relying on devs to change the way ANY classes work or work together, maybe the DPS people that feel left out of end game content should start by figuring out what they could bring to a party so they might compete with that second tank and one of the DCs
they could make more DC's..... XD
Nonsense! We cannot disrupt the status quo!
Lazy DPSers are entitled to be lazy because they have lots of epeen and all support players should be grateful somebody is carrying their lazy arses!
the main Problem with the FIX of duble DC's will be that DO DC's are not wanted anymore.
Why - because of AA. AA Protect the group and is needed in most dungeons. All the glass canon build getting oneshotted needs a almost perma AA DC. The DO DC can't protect the group like the AC can. The Buffs are the same but can you Buff a dead DPS?
So if the changes of the double DC's go then DO DC's are dead again. Think about of all the bad build dps and also bad build Tanks who need protection of AA. The DO DC needs a rework again - so jhe also can protect the group and not only buff.
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adinosiiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,294Arc User
the main Problem with the FIX of duble DC's will be that DO DC's are not wanted anymore.
Why - because of AA. AA Protect the group and is needed in most dungeons. All the glass canon build getting oneshotted needs a almost perma AA DC. The DO DC can't protect the group like the AC can.
I'm not so sure I agree 100% with that. AA has several different effects, protection and damage immunity but also the power sharing which is perhaps most important -The bonding runestone nerf will affect power sharing in a big way and that affects the AC - making that paragon a lot less powerful.
What I suspect will happen is that low-end players that really need the protection will prefer AC (because of the AA protection, as you said), while the "high-end" will prefer the DO debuffs, instead of the weakened power-sharing of the AC.
the main Problem with the FIX of duble DC's will be that DO DC's are not wanted anymore.
Why - because of AA. AA Protect the group and is needed in most dungeons. All the glass canon build getting oneshotted needs a almost perma AA DC. The DO DC can't protect the group like the AC can.
I'm not so sure I agree 100% with that. AA has several different effects, protection and damage immunity but also the power sharing which is perhaps most important -The bonding runestone nerf will affect power sharing in a big way and that affects the AC - making that paragon a lot less powerful.
What I suspect will happen is that low-end players that really need the protection will prefer AC (because of the AA protection, as you said), while the "high-end" will prefer the DO debuffs, instead of the weakened power-sharing of the AC.
@adinosii If i can add. There is also Divine armor, for a DO build. I know it is not popular but it does help.
There is no 2 DC problem, there is a player mentality problem who think spending more than a set amount of time in a dungeon is wastefull.
It's easy to blame the DC's but if I do the math then 40% of the team is made up out of DC's which makes it 60% which isn't and which also collaborates towards the issue.
If they really mess up ac power-sharing with a cooldown on bondings on top of the %-nerf then...good grief - that´ll make ac very unattractive. I hope they changed this cooldown-thing and returned to the constant refresh of the bonding gift as it was. I mean...after they tossed this idea with the 50% uptime on bondings there really isn´t any intelligible reason at all to have any kind of cooldown, right? Other than to mess up power-sharing and thus the ac paragon completely for no reason? Change power-sharing from something that worked perfectly and in a sensible way into something that really doesn´t. Why would they do it? I don´t see any sane reason so I´m hoping to see (tomorrow?) that at the very least the bonding proc behavior will be as it is now:( Willy-nilly nerfing away the ac paragon hopefully isn´t part of their "fix" to the "2-dc-problem" - that would be very lame and depressing:P A lot of players of high IL dc´s have build their toons for and have fun with this path (with a do build on the side for solo-ing or being the 2nd dc in a group with another more powerful ac) and I would guess it is the ac paragon that makes most players want to improve their cleric further after a certain point because a DO buff/debuff build can be very efficient at a relatively low IL while an ac´s buffs do get ever more powerful by gearing up further. And players greedy to improve and gear up is what game designers want so...it all makes very little sense. Maybe they have some nice plans up their sleeves and everything will be nice and peachy but the devs aren´t doing an awesome job of inspiring any hope in that direction
In reality, that's just not what people really want.
But thats the people want. They level much more dps characters than support.
Imho reworking/"nerfing" DC is not the real solution. I think the buffs/debuffs overall are getting to strong. Its happening since mod9.
Not worth to bring a second dps to the party. The buffs and power sharing should be nerfed! And the dps classes should do enough standalone unbuffed damage to be worthy to replace a buffer/debuffer in a party.
i dont see any problems with DC's being so popular. i think its an issue of insurmountable HP totals to get through, i think that if total HP was lowered and if armor pen was more needed, and bonding was toned way down so there weren't such crazy scaling...
what it would mean for dps then it would narrow the gap between classes so slight differences between classes wouldn't scale out of control, while making it more of a gear check you have X amount of armor pen you're now dealing end game damage.
i get that its a "nerf" to dcs and gwf's, but ultimately they just have the highest % totals to make use of.
buffing is fine, companions and stat concepts / content are not. it definitely needs an overhaul to bring in diversity.
between AC and DO, that problem lies with tanks taking no damage and everyone else being one shot. you cant ever remedy that issue without introducing true damage mechanics where you're just going to take % hp per second that only a healer can solve. where its something that either an AC can manage, and a DO can breeze through. but potions and lifesteal just wont cut it.
How long do you think is a reasonable time for completing a dungeon? Also, how long do you think is a reasonable time for completing dungeon that you've already ran 20+ times? Just curious.
What is "reasonable" depends on a lot of things - including your expectations. Let me give you an example. Yesterday I ran ToNG. All of us were pretty well geared, and had run the dungeon multiple times before. We finished in 25 minutes, which I consider pretty good - others agreed, so we ran it again, taking 24 minutes for the second run (2 DCs, OP, HR, GWF). So, very reasonable.
Then I ran it again with a different group. That group was less geared, with one "first-timer", and another who was rather inexperienced. We wiped once at last boss, but completed the run in 48 minutes - twice as long as the earlier runs, but again, reasonable, given what the party was like.
If I had been in an "experienced", well-geared group, and the run had taken 48 minutes, I would not have found it reasonable at all.
So, as I said, what is "reasonable" depends on your expectations.
When I run with inexperienced people I take my time to explain things. This makes those runs take a bit more time, but also helps people get a bit more grip on understanding the dungeons.
Those groups will always be a group who all know we have 1 or 2 fresh people for that instance and as such when certain things need to be explained we take our time to explain the upcomming mechanics for a certain part or boss.
Dos this diminish the "reasonable" time limit for said dungeon? Not in my experience because next time we run it those new faces will know what to expect and their task at the various locations.
And my DC will always, and I mean ALWAYS run along with the slowest in the group, so sprinting forward like mad and expecting me to race along with you as much as I can is not gonna happen.
adinosiiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,294Arc User
edited October 2017
On the subject of ToNG run times, I ran it three times after Mod 12-B was released. It took a bit longer than it would probably have taken before, as expected - the bonding runestone change meant all of us had lower stats - a 16K, one-DC group that would probably have taken less then 25 minutes before now took 29, for example.
Pretty much what I expected. I also suspect that groups that previously struggled and took over an hour to complete will now find that they are unable to complete the dungeon at all.
If you mean do I take my time to explain in PuG's, then no. Maybe because I hardly ever PuG, even now with the random queue's, because I don't like the 5 x 1 man mentality and prefer teamwork.
If you mean do I stay with the slowest in a PuG if I PuG, then yes. Not everyone can race forward and seeing the slowest char in a group is Always the OP ( who happens to be the tank aswel in most cases) I don't see the fault in my reasoning.
If you decide to rush forward to pull aggro way ahead of the tank you yourself are causing your own problem, why should I fix your issue which you could have avoided easily by letting a tank do his job.
Since you are all PC players, if you want games that have more than Tank, Healer, DPS go play the single player RPG games like BG, Divinity Original Sin 1 and 2, Pillars of Eternity, Torment, etc...there are many games out there that give you more than what we see here in this game.
Neverwinter Online is a ACTION RPG, I mean that tout that on the main page. This means it will be Tank, Healer and DPS focus, mostly on the DPS side, well more towards damage.
The issue with this game is that there is a fourth option that is not a DPS, tank or healer and that is a Controller and according to the website the following classes are controllers: DCs, GF, CWs, etc... but rarely does anything need to be controlled. That is an option that is built within the game. There are ability scores, feats, artifacts, and companion bonuses that raise the ability to control but the community as a whole does not see the utility of a control build and thus it is rarely used.
The devs probably see the lack of players running controller builds since the community is all about damage, damage, damage and more damage.
I go pug CN as a GF. I got sent a nasty tell by a GWF that I did not produce 25% of his damage on my GF. I was setup as a tank with high defense but my power and crit stats were so much lower that I rarely hit hard enough to keep up with an equally geared GWF. Yet I am suppose to do X% of damage compared to him. I mean, not happening there buddy.
Also, please watch what you ask the devs to do. Most devs tend to hear ABC and you maybe saying XYZ and what the can do is LMNOP....just a word of warning as you all write what you want from the devs.
For me, I would like to see a full revamp of all classes, companions, enchantments, stats, content, etc. Rebalance everything
I don't play this because it's an online MMORPG. I play it because it's Dungeouns & Dragons. Due to Real Life constraints, I cannot join a table top group right now. This is how I get my fix. I won't go away until the devs tack on a subscription, or close the servers. Anyone that can't adjust to the constant changes the devs impose, would never be able to fit into most Paper & dice groups anyway. You think sweeping changes every six months are hard. Oh, dear. My Nana would have to go have a bit of a lie down All I can say is, Bye Felicia!
Comments
Lazy DPSers are entitled to be lazy because they have lots of epeen and all support players should be grateful somebody is carrying their lazy arses!
Come on man, I thought you knew that!!!
;3
Why - because of AA. AA Protect the group and is needed in most dungeons. All the glass canon build getting oneshotted needs a almost perma AA DC. The DO DC can't protect the group like the AC can. The Buffs are the same but can you Buff a dead DPS?
So if the changes of the double DC's go then DO DC's are dead again. Think about of all the bad build dps and also bad build Tanks who need protection of AA. The DO DC needs a rework again - so jhe also can protect the group and not only buff.
What I suspect will happen is that low-end players that really need the protection will prefer AC (because of the AA protection, as you said), while the "high-end" will prefer the DO debuffs, instead of the weakened power-sharing of the AC.
If i can add. There is also Divine armor, for a DO build. I know it is not popular but it does help.
It's easy to blame the DC's but if I do the math then 40% of the team is made up out of DC's which makes it 60% which isn't and which also collaborates towards the issue.
Willy-nilly nerfing away the ac paragon hopefully isn´t part of their "fix" to the "2-dc-problem" - that would be very lame and depressing:P
A lot of players of high IL dc´s have build their toons for and have fun with this path (with a do build on the side for solo-ing or being the 2nd dc in a group with another more powerful ac) and I would guess it is the ac paragon that makes most players want to improve their cleric further after a certain point because a DO buff/debuff build can be very efficient at a relatively low IL while an ac´s buffs do get ever more powerful by gearing up further. And players greedy to improve and gear up is what game designers want so...it all makes very little sense. Maybe they have some nice plans up their sleeves and everything will be nice and peachy but the devs aren´t doing an awesome job of inspiring any hope in that direction
Imho reworking/"nerfing" DC is not the real solution.
I think the buffs/debuffs overall are getting to strong. Its happening since mod9.
Not worth to bring a second dps to the party.
The buffs and power sharing should be nerfed!
And the dps classes should do enough standalone unbuffed damage to be worthy to replace a buffer/debuffer in a party.
what it would mean for dps then it would narrow the gap between classes so slight differences between classes wouldn't scale out of control, while making it more of a gear check you have X amount of armor pen you're now dealing end game damage.
i get that its a "nerf" to dcs and gwf's, but ultimately they just have the highest % totals to make use of.
buffing is fine, companions and stat concepts / content are not. it definitely needs an overhaul to bring in diversity.
between AC and DO, that problem lies with tanks taking no damage and everyone else being one shot. you cant ever remedy that issue without introducing true damage mechanics where you're just going to take % hp per second that only a healer can solve. where its something that either an AC can manage, and a DO can breeze through. but potions and lifesteal just wont cut it.
Then I ran it again with a different group. That group was less geared, with one "first-timer", and another who was rather inexperienced. We wiped once at last boss, but completed the run in 48 minutes - twice as long as the earlier runs, but again, reasonable, given what the party was like.
If I had been in an "experienced", well-geared group, and the run had taken 48 minutes, I would not have found it reasonable at all.
So, as I said, what is "reasonable" depends on your expectations.
This makes those runs take a bit more time, but also helps people get a bit more grip on understanding the dungeons.
Those groups will always be a group who all know we have 1 or 2 fresh people for that instance and as such when certain things need to be explained we take our time to explain the upcomming mechanics for a certain part or boss.
Dos this diminish the "reasonable" time limit for said dungeon? Not in my experience because next time we run it those new faces will know what to expect and their task at the various locations.
And my DC will always, and I mean ALWAYS run along with the slowest in the group, so sprinting forward like mad and expecting me to race along with you as much as I can is not gonna happen.
Pretty much what I expected. I also suspect that groups that previously struggled and took over an hour to complete will now find that they are unable to complete the dungeon at all.
If you mean do I stay with the slowest in a PuG if I PuG, then yes. Not everyone can race forward and seeing the slowest char in a group is Always the OP ( who happens to be the tank aswel in most cases) I don't see the fault in my reasoning.
If you decide to rush forward to pull aggro way ahead of the tank you yourself are causing your own problem, why should I fix your issue which you could have avoided easily by letting a tank do his job.