What most people aren't talking about is that groups can fail at TONG and do so regularly. My DC has picked up a significant proportion of his seals simply by helping people out stuck at the various bosses (yes, people fail at second boss too!). I personally don't mind it taking longer, but I do mind runs that take 2h because you keep failing because the party just isn't strong enough. And I've been in some of those too, often where people are relatively inexperienced and don't know how to build their class to synergise. I suppose with the coming changes that will be even more important and I honestly worry that the fail rate is going to go through the roof and hence the unwillingness to take any risks. That said - in my experience HRs are some of the best DPS for TONG either as support or main.
This is really a problem for the devs. They went too far in trying to provide challenging content and ended up giving up something that requires an exploit for most players to run. The solution? Reduce mobs' (or at least Orcus') HP by 50%. Remember when it was not only possible but expected to random-queue into a dungeon during Delves hour and finish it? Remember when dungeons were fun and rewarding instead of frustrating and cheap with loot? If we need seals that only coem from this content to get the gear, we should all be able to run it. This over-emphasis on support classes has all but killed player population and interested in dungeon runs.
We DO want challenging content, so the answer is not to make less demanding content.
It is just not ok that some classes are excluded.
The root problem is class balance, the devs really need to fix the classes that are excluded because of low performance. CW, SW, TR
Went through a 4 hr TONG myself so I feel your pains. I can only imagine how bad the average runs will be after 12b changes go live.
Oh we ll get to + 6h , i bet. Until we get used to it. When it first came out, i enthusiastically was inside for 7 hours. At the first boss. I Actually took a day off to try the new dungeon. What grinds my gear is when you get to the final boss, it still throws you at the beginning of the dungeon if you manage to fall off. It is a second of not paying attention and too much enthusiasm in killing the souls and you are out . That takes time as well. DPS can not kill the mobs without the support and support can not get to the end without DPS. So we all go together. Teamplay.
0
adinosiiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,294Arc User
Mod 12-B will make ToNG runs harder and slower. The fastest run I have heard of was 17 minutes - the fastest one I have participated in myself was 22 minutes, but I have done multiple sub-30 minute runs. I expect such runs will be very rare after Mod-12B hits (at least until people get their R12s up to R14) .
A group the previously could run the dungeon in 25 minutes will (post 12-B) take 35 minutes - a group that previously took 40 minutes will take an hour and a group that previously took over an hour might simply be unable to finish.
This will have an effect on the different classes - people will be less willing to do ToNG with "unusual" class combinations, which is kind-of bad news, in particular for the TRs, but also for SWs.
However, you do not have to use a "meta" group of ACDC/DODC/OP/GF/GWF. True, that is the fastest combination, but ToNG is perfectly well doable with a large variety of class combinations.
I have done ToNG as the single (DO) DC, with a MoF CW in place of the other DC - no issues whatsoever. I have done it with a TR or SW instead of either the OP or the GF - took a bit longer, but worked fine. I have done it with a HR as the main DPS instead of a GWF - surprisingly fast and smooth.
I have also had a few failed runs, some of which even had the "meta" described above - it is no guarantee for success.
Sometimes you can just tell at the start that it's not going to be a great run. For example, if I see the other DC using a Vorpal enchant instead of a debuff one, or if the OP just refuses to use Bane on the bosses then eh.... I just know it's going to be a 45 minute run at least - it's just those small signs that tell me that people don't know how to play their class.
Another cold, hard fact is that some classes are just harder to play properly.
Playing a debuff DC is pretty easy - slot the right powers, and keep your primary daily (HG or AA) up 100%, and that's 90% of the job. I find the OP fairly easy as well, with the other classes more difficult, and the extreme case is the poor little TR. Quite frankly, it is the hardest class to play well. It is easy to be a bad TR, and that's a part of the reason why TRs are not sought after in ToNG - most of them are, unfortunately, not that great.
However, there are some really good TRs out there, and I'll be happy to join them in ToNG any day. In general though, the class could use a little bit of love and attention from the developers.
What actually grind my gears is that I have a 13.5k GF tactician and people want 15k+ GFs for the runs. I mean seriously? I won't buff you more when I will be 15k for hamsters sake.
Seriously, some people should really consider their knowledge in support classes. When I make my own group, I'll hapily take 12k+ DC's and Pallys with me. I only want dps to be somehow 13k+.
This is really a problem for the devs. They went too far in trying to provide challenging content and ended up giving up something that requires an exploit for most players to run. The solution? Reduce mobs' (or at least Orcus') HP by 50%. Remember when it was not only possible but expected to random-queue into a dungeon during Delves hour and finish it? Remember when dungeons were fun and rewarding instead of frustrating and cheap with loot? If we need seals that only coem from this content to get the gear, we should all be able to run it. This over-emphasis on support classes has all but killed player population and interested in dungeon runs.
We DO want challenging content, so the answer is not to make less demanding content.
It is just not ok that some classes are excluded.
The root problem is class balance, the devs really need to fix the classes that are excluded because of low performance. CW, SW, TR
I'm not sure it's a class balance issue as much as a design issue. If they design a dungeon that needs massive buffs and debuffs, has a few DPS checks and some mechanics requiring certain actions, then of course those wanting quicker, less frustrating runs, are going to take certain classes.
Personally, I've run with a few CWs and TRs that were perfectly fine as main/only DPS, even in single DC groups. These were mostly 16K+ groups with folks that were extremely experienced. In contrast I've run a few times with dual DC groups that kept failing. In one of those instances, the main DPS (was a GWF) had "traded" his bonding stones and had none on his companion.
I guess my point is, this dungeon while it can be run by many different combinations of classes it has some mechanics that necessitate optimal group formation if it's not run by a high IL, or highly experienced group (still needing a reasonable IL).
Personally, I don't believe the devs tested this dungeon with a standard 1 tank, 1 healer, 3 dps 12K IL group. I just don't believe a 12K IL group will have enough DPS to do it. I'm not even sure a 13K IL group can do it, unless perhaps they are perfectly maximized (Transcendent enchants, R12 bondings, legendary companion) and have a deceptively low IL.
Even on the last boss, which is less of a dps check than Orcus it still requires you to kill souls fast enough. The lower your overall dps, the more rounds of souls you will have to clear, and the greater the chance of making a mistake, thereby compounding the frustration for a non optimal low IL group. So perhaps they shouldn't design dungeons like this if they aren't happy with how folks are doing them.
What actually grind my gears is that I have a 13.5k GF tactician and people want 15k+ GFs for the runs. I mean seriously? I won't buff you more when I will be 15k for hamsters sake.
Seriously, some people should really consider their knowledge in support classes. When I make my own group, I'll hapily take 12k+ DC's and Pallys with me. I only want dps to be somehow 13k+.
That's not entirely true. DC and Pally power share is amplified with higher power (DC and OP) + higher HP for the OP and also greatly benefits from legendary companions with higher bonding stones which 12K folks tend to not have.
> @marv700#9957 said: > What actually grind my gears is that I have a 13.5k GF tactician and people want 15k+ GFs for the runs. I mean seriously? I won't buff you more when I will be 15k for hamsters sake. > > Seriously, some people should really consider their knowledge in support classes. When I make my own group, I'll hapily take 12k+ DC's and Pallys with me. I only want dps to be somehow 13k+. > > That's not entirely true. DC and Pally power share is amplified with higher power (DC and OP) + higher HP for the OP and also greatly benefits from legendary companions with higher bonding stones which 12K folks tend to not have.
Having more powershare is more of a quality feature of higher support since ur basically getting x4 as much as they share 100% for ur character and 300 for ur companion, even 12k + can share a decent amount of power beside u cant always be picky with support as long as they know their class im fine at least
I will apologize now for the long rant, though it is needed I believe.
What grinds my gears is the fact that people whom meat the minimum item level believe they should be able to join a ToNG group and be successful at it.
Hear me out. Item level means absolutely HAMSTER all tbh. You really need to have the right builds, skills used, companions and items. I normally only play DPS toons but here recently decided to make a Paladin to help out my friends so they could play their DPS toons instead of playing support all of the time. So I had to do a little research into what it means to, 1.) be a tank in this game, 2.) whats it mean to be a Paladin in this game, 3.) how and what I need to get/do to best support any group that I play with.
Well it seems simple enough, a tanks job is to hold aggro at all costs and to position the mobs/bosses to make it easier on the dps/support to kill it and avoid as much of the "RED" with as minimal effort on their part. Now for the Paladin part I need to provide as much debuff/buffs as possible without sacrificing my survivability in the process. Well how can I best achieve this?
Lets start with some easy to obtain gear.
The Valhalla set. = 15% dmg debuff Lantern of Rev. = 16% dmg buff
Now how about some companions.
Sellsword as the summoned companion = 10% def debuff Rust Monster = 15% dmg debuff
Lets now talk about what skills should be run.
Trash mobs I run:
Templar's Wrath = Temp hp shield and stun on mobs. Blinding Light = Longer stun. Circle of Power = dmg reduction for everyone standing in it.
Bosses I run: Templar's Wrath = Temp hp shield and stun on mobs. Bane = Boss does 30% less dmg and takes 30% more dmg. Circle of Power = dmg reduction for everyone standing in it.
In addition to the previous skills I use
Radiant Strike = dmg and arpen buff for myself Shielding Strike = gives a shield for more dmg mitigation Shield of Faith = 30% dmg reduction on the group Aura of Courage = extra dmg for the group Aura of Wisdom = faster CD's Sanctuary = dmg reduction and + healing for anyone inside it. "mind you I never see paly's use this to help out the group"
Now I know there are a few builds out there, most go 26 in justice and 15 in light. I have seen 2 15k+ paladins going full Bulwark tree.... Now there is a lot of help for the group...
Now I am only 13.5k Ilvl and I am able to provide all of these benefits to the group. I can almost have 100% up time on shield of faith. Now I could go for a more offensive setup but IMO it is more of a benefit to ensure 100% survivability to the group with maximum buffs/debuffs than to raise my dmg. After all a dead DPS'er or dead DC does the group no good what so ever. IMO this is the only way to play a proper tank and once your group has zero issues with survival then you can slowly start to ramp up your personal dmg.
Now I have seen quite a few OP's in ToNG running all sorts of artifact sets and random active artifacts. Running aura of Truth and Protection. Even going so far as to use Banishment and Relentless Avenger... Seriously guys WTF. I am all for a player playing what ever build running what ever skills and using what ever gear they choose when it comes to solo content but for the love of all that is holy when it comes to group play you simply can not do that and expect to be successful.
Time to me is valuable. It is the most valuable thing to me in gaming and out here in the real world. It is a huge sign of disrespect when I get into a group and players have no idea of what their skills do, why to use a particular one in a given situation. Sure I get it, this is a game and you want to have fun BUT fun is not spending HOURS in ToNG.
People like to define Insanity as doing the same time over and over expecting different results when you don't make any changes to fix the issue. I've seen groups throw themselves at bosses in there for hours on end, running completely ineffective builds/ skills expecting for the boss to magically fall over and give them loot. And when you try to offer "constructive criticism" they either completely ignore you or they get extremely defensive since they take it as a personal attack on them....
This game has the lowest skill curve of any MMO that I have seen to date and I have played damn near every one released since the beta of Everquest. If you are having trouble with ToNG then the issue is more than likely you and a learn to play issue. Once you run it more than 3 times there is no excuse to not know where the shadows are setting, to not be able to turn around and avoid the fear/charm from the Yuan-Ti's, to know ALL of the "RED" areas from trash/bosses. What I see going on is that people for the longest time have abused broken mechanics/ exploits to face tank and avoid doing the proper mechanics in all of the fights that they do not know how to play correctly anymore.
Honestly i do see ur point, as i said as long as they know their class as supports anyways, running aura of protection, healers lore etc. Doesnt qualify as knowing ur class tho. And yeah i personally dont like the item lvl change, my baby gwf can go into fbi... dps is a problem but supports usually can get away with bringing lower 12+ since aside from powershare most of their buffs/debuffs are innate, stacking defense on a tank come along pretty well, if anything using shepards devotion can help out ur tank if their lacking alittle, dc their debuffs are feat and power related. Np about the rant btw, its justifiable no one wants to spend 2 hours in a dungeon for 2 pieces of salvage and 70 seals when u can run it in 30 minutes
I will apologize now for the long rant, though it is needed I believe.
What grinds my gears is the fact that people whom meat the minimum item level believe they should be able to join a ToNG group and be successful at it.
Hear me out. Item level means absolutely HAMSTER all tbh. You really need to have the right builds, skills used, companions and items. I normally only play DPS toons but here recently decided to make a Paladin to help out my friends so they could play their DPS toons instead of playing support all of the time. So I had to do a little research into what it means to, 1.) be a tank in this game, 2.) whats it mean to be a Paladin in this game, 3.) how and what I need to get/do to best support any group that I play with.
I'm not sure what your point is, or was specifically in response to. Basically folks want to run dungeons and have a pretty good idea ahead of time if it's going to be successful and not more than an hour. You can do that by playing only with friends who you know their skills (except my friends list in this game shrinks faster than I can add folks), or you can base it off IL under the premise that folks over 14K have at least some clue what they are doing (not true of course, but what else do you have to go on with a PUG).
Minimum IL should give a reasonable chance for success. If it doesn't, then they need to raise it as those folks have no business even trying it.
So back to the main topic of this thread. The loot is JUNK (generally salvage + seals), so if you can't run it in 30 minutes it's a complete waste of time. It would be cheaper to work 1 hour at minimum wage than do that dungeon run. Probably less painful too.
So they need to make the dungeons more rewarding and not design them so you need a meta group for it to be fun and even remotely worth the time to run.
Personally, I don't dislike tong, but for example the Orcus fight is boring as hell as it is, why would anyone willingly want to do that with less overall dps than a meta group?
Random queues? What a big disaster. Aside from it causing folks to quit, I don't think any of the experienced players will use it. Who wants to end up in eGWD or even eCC with a bunch of minimum IL pugs? Not fun, not worth the time, not a smart design decision.
Mod 12-B will make ToNG runs harder and slower. The fastest run I have heard of was 17 minutes - the fastest one I have participated in myself was 22 minutes, but I have done multiple sub-30 minute runs. I expect such runs will be very rare after Mod-12B hits (at least until people get their R12s up to R14) .
A group the previously could run the dungeon in 25 minutes will (post 12-B) take 35 minutes - a group that previously took 40 minutes will take an hour and a group that previously took over an hour might simply be unable to finish.
This will have an effect on the different classes - people will be less willing to do ToNG with "unusual" class combinations, which is kind-of bad news, in particular for the TRs, but also for SWs.
However, you do not have to use a "meta" group of ACDC/DODC/OP/GF/GWF. True, that is the fastest combination, but ToNG is perfectly well doable with a large variety of class combinations.
I have done ToNG as the single (DO) DC, with a MoF CW in place of the other DC - no issues whatsoever. I have done it with a TR or SW instead of either the OP or the GF - took a bit longer, but worked fine. I have done it with a HR as the main DPS instead of a GWF - surprisingly fast and smooth.
I have also had a few failed runs, some of which even had the "meta" described above - it is no guarantee for success.
Sometimes you can just tell at the start that it's not going to be a great run. For example, if I see the other DC using a Vorpal enchant instead of a debuff one, or if the OP just refuses to use Bane on the bosses then eh.... I just know it's going to be a 45 minute run at least - it's just those small signs that tell me that people don't know how to play their class.
Another cold, hard fact is that some classes are just harder to play properly.
Playing a debuff DC is pretty easy - slot the right powers, and keep your primary daily (HG or AA) up 100%, and that's 90% of the job. I find the OP fairly easy as well, with the other classes more difficult, and the extreme case is the poor little TR. Quite frankly, it is the hardest class to play well. It is easy to be a bad TR, and that's a part of the reason why TRs are not sought after in ToNG - most of them are, unfortunately, not that great.
However, there are some really good TRs out there, and I'll be happy to join them in ToNG any day. In general though, the class could use a little bit of love and attention from the developers.
While I had been whining a bit about my lack of success as a TR in ToNG recently, I've now completed four runs in the last week, and two as main DPS. It's perfectly doable and fast, as long as the rest of the party follows the current meta (2xDC, OP, GF). It works well as a secondary DPS too, as long as we get sufficient buffs from the rest of the group (2xDC, OP).
The key here is that buffs>>dps. I've been in a 3xDPS party (TR, HR, SW) and that was a major fail.
Quote: "Now I have seen quite a few OP's in ToNG running all sorts of artifact sets and random active artifacts. Running aura of Truth and Protection. Even going so far as to use Banishment and Relentless Avenger... Seriously guys WTF. I am all for a player playing what ever build running what ever skills and using what ever gear they choose when it comes to solo content but for the love of all that is holy when it comes to group play you simply can not do that and expect to be successful. "
I do agree with most of your post, good sir, and yes, Banishment is useless. But Relentless Avenger does have its purpose. It is a disruptive skill, meaning instead of turning your back to the eye, you can disrupt it! It also generates aggro and pulls the mobs towards you once they recover, which isn't very long. I'm tired of people knocking this skill, because when used properly, it can be extremely useful. I've played a tank for years, and the problem with full Bulwark is recharge time on skills. You have to completely set your tank up with different attributes, and I don't enjoy spending hours on dailies because I can hardly damage anything (I believe you mentioned time is important?)
My two pennies...
Varric the Cursed Dwarven cursed to be Tiefling CW Original Serenity Mostly Retired DC Tokarek Bearded Dwarven OP Tankadin JuiceHead Goofy Human GWF Member of H3llzWarriors and Limitless.
Comments
plus , my breaks are famous. :P
It is just not ok that some classes are excluded.
The root problem is class balance, the devs really need to fix the classes that are excluded because of low performance.
CW, SW, TR
When it first came out, i enthusiastically was inside for 7 hours. At the first boss.
I Actually took a day off to try the new dungeon.
What grinds my gear is when you get to the final boss, it still throws you at the beginning of the dungeon if you manage to fall off. It is a second of not paying attention and too much enthusiasm in killing the souls and you are out .
That takes time as well. DPS can not kill the mobs without the support and support can not get to the end without DPS.
So we all go together. Teamplay.
A group the previously could run the dungeon in 25 minutes will (post 12-B) take 35 minutes - a group that previously took 40 minutes will take an hour and a group that previously took over an hour might simply be unable to finish.
This will have an effect on the different classes - people will be less willing to do ToNG with "unusual" class combinations, which is kind-of bad news, in particular for the TRs, but also for SWs.
However, you do not have to use a "meta" group of ACDC/DODC/OP/GF/GWF. True, that is the fastest combination, but ToNG is perfectly well doable with a large variety of class combinations.
I have done ToNG as the single (DO) DC, with a MoF CW in place of the other DC - no issues whatsoever. I have done it with a TR or SW instead of either the OP or the GF - took a bit longer, but worked fine. I have done it with a HR as the main DPS instead of a GWF - surprisingly fast and smooth.
I have also had a few failed runs, some of which even had the "meta" described above - it is no guarantee for success.
Sometimes you can just tell at the start that it's not going to be a great run. For example, if I see the other DC using a Vorpal enchant instead of a debuff one, or if the OP just refuses to use Bane on the bosses then eh.... I just know it's going to be a 45 minute run at least - it's just those small signs that tell me that people don't know how to play their class.
Another cold, hard fact is that some classes are just harder to play properly.
Playing a debuff DC is pretty easy - slot the right powers, and keep your primary daily (HG or AA) up 100%, and that's 90% of the job. I find the OP fairly easy as well, with the other classes more difficult, and the extreme case is the poor little TR. Quite frankly, it is the hardest class to play well. It is easy to be a bad TR, and that's a part of the reason why TRs are not sought after in ToNG - most of them are, unfortunately, not that great.
However, there are some really good TRs out there, and I'll be happy to join them in ToNG any day. In general though, the class could use a little bit of love and attention from the developers.
Seriously, some people should really consider their knowledge in support classes. When I make my own group, I'll hapily take 12k+ DC's and Pallys with me. I only want dps to be somehow 13k+.
Personally, I've run with a few CWs and TRs that were perfectly fine as main/only DPS, even in single DC groups. These were mostly 16K+ groups with folks that were extremely experienced. In contrast I've run a few times with dual DC groups that kept failing. In one of those instances, the main DPS (was a GWF) had "traded" his bonding stones and had none on his companion.
I guess my point is, this dungeon while it can be run by many different combinations of classes it has some mechanics that necessitate optimal group formation if it's not run by a high IL, or highly experienced group (still needing a reasonable IL).
Personally, I don't believe the devs tested this dungeon with a standard 1 tank, 1 healer, 3 dps 12K IL group. I just don't believe a 12K IL group will have enough DPS to do it. I'm not even sure a 13K IL group can do it, unless perhaps they are perfectly maximized (Transcendent enchants, R12 bondings, legendary companion) and have a deceptively low IL.
Even on the last boss, which is less of a dps check than Orcus it still requires you to kill souls fast enough. The lower your overall dps, the more rounds of souls you will have to clear, and the greater the chance of making a mistake, thereby compounding the frustration for a non optimal low IL group. So perhaps they shouldn't design dungeons like this if they aren't happy with how folks are doing them.
> What actually grind my gears is that I have a 13.5k GF tactician and people want 15k+ GFs for the runs. I mean seriously? I won't buff you more when I will be 15k for hamsters sake.
>
> Seriously, some people should really consider their knowledge in support classes. When I make my own group, I'll hapily take 12k+ DC's and Pallys with me. I only want dps to be somehow 13k+.
>
> That's not entirely true. DC and Pally power share is amplified with higher power (DC and OP) + higher HP for the OP and also greatly benefits from legendary companions with higher bonding stones which 12K folks tend to not have.
Having more powershare is more of a quality feature of higher support since ur basically getting x4 as much as they share 100% for ur character and 300 for ur companion, even 12k + can share a decent amount of power beside u cant always be picky with support as long as they know their class im fine at least
What grinds my gears is the fact that people whom meat the minimum item level believe they should be able to join a ToNG group and be successful at it.
Hear me out. Item level means absolutely HAMSTER all tbh. You really need to have the right builds, skills used, companions and items. I normally only play DPS toons but here recently decided to make a Paladin to help out my friends so they could play their DPS toons instead of playing support all of the time. So I had to do a little research into what it means to, 1.) be a tank in this game, 2.) whats it mean to be a Paladin in this game, 3.) how and what I need to get/do to best support any group that I play with.
Well it seems simple enough, a tanks job is to hold aggro at all costs and to position the mobs/bosses to make it easier on the dps/support to kill it and avoid as much of the "RED" with as minimal effort on their part. Now for the Paladin part I need to provide as much debuff/buffs as possible without sacrificing my survivability in the process. Well how can I best achieve this?
Lets start with some easy to obtain gear.
The Valhalla set. = 15% dmg debuff
Lantern of Rev. = 16% dmg buff
Now how about some companions.
Sellsword as the summoned companion = 10% def debuff
Rust Monster = 15% dmg debuff
Lets now talk about what skills should be run.
Trash mobs I run:
Templar's Wrath = Temp hp shield and stun on mobs.
Blinding Light = Longer stun.
Circle of Power = dmg reduction for everyone standing in it.
Bosses I run:
Templar's Wrath = Temp hp shield and stun on mobs.
Bane = Boss does 30% less dmg and takes 30% more dmg.
Circle of Power = dmg reduction for everyone standing in it.
In addition to the previous skills I use
Radiant Strike = dmg and arpen buff for myself
Shielding Strike = gives a shield for more dmg mitigation
Shield of Faith = 30% dmg reduction on the group
Aura of Courage = extra dmg for the group
Aura of Wisdom = faster CD's
Sanctuary = dmg reduction and + healing for anyone inside it. "mind you I never see paly's use this to help out the group"
Now I know there are a few builds out there, most go 26 in justice and 15 in light. I have seen 2 15k+ paladins going full Bulwark tree.... Now there is a lot of help for the group...
Now I am only 13.5k Ilvl and I am able to provide all of these benefits to the group. I can almost have 100% up time on shield of faith. Now I could go for a more offensive setup but IMO it is more of a benefit to ensure 100% survivability to the group with maximum buffs/debuffs than to raise my dmg. After all a dead DPS'er or dead DC does the group no good what so ever. IMO this is the only way to play a proper tank and once your group has zero issues with survival then you can slowly start to ramp up your personal dmg.
Now I have seen quite a few OP's in ToNG running all sorts of artifact sets and random active artifacts. Running aura of Truth and Protection. Even going so far as to use Banishment and Relentless Avenger... Seriously guys WTF. I am all for a player playing what ever build running what ever skills and using what ever gear they choose when it comes to solo content but for the love of all that is holy when it comes to group play you simply can not do that and expect to be successful.
Time to me is valuable. It is the most valuable thing to me in gaming and out here in the real world. It is a huge sign of disrespect when I get into a group and players have no idea of what their skills do, why to use a particular one in a given situation. Sure I get it, this is a game and you want to have fun BUT fun is not spending HOURS in ToNG.
People like to define Insanity as doing the same time over and over expecting different results when you don't make any changes to fix the issue. I've seen groups throw themselves at bosses in there for hours on end, running completely ineffective builds/ skills expecting for the boss to magically fall over and give them loot. And when you try to offer "constructive criticism" they either completely ignore you or they get extremely defensive since they take it as a personal attack on them....
This game has the lowest skill curve of any MMO that I have seen to date and I have played damn near every one released since the beta of Everquest. If you are having trouble with ToNG then the issue is more than likely you and a learn to play issue. Once you run it more than 3 times there is no excuse to not know where the shadows are setting, to not be able to turn around and avoid the fear/charm from the Yuan-Ti's, to know ALL of the "RED" areas from trash/bosses. What I see going on is that people for the longest time have abused broken mechanics/ exploits to face tank and avoid doing the proper mechanics in all of the fights that they do not know how to play correctly anymore.
Minimum IL should give a reasonable chance for success. If it doesn't, then they need to raise it as those folks have no business even trying it.
So back to the main topic of this thread. The loot is JUNK (generally salvage + seals), so if you can't run it in 30 minutes it's a complete waste of time. It would be cheaper to work 1 hour at minimum wage than do that dungeon run. Probably less painful too.
So they need to make the dungeons more rewarding and not design them so you need a meta group for it to be fun and even remotely worth the time to run.
Personally, I don't dislike tong, but for example the Orcus fight is boring as hell as it is, why would anyone willingly want to do that with less overall dps than a meta group?
Random queues? What a big disaster. Aside from it causing folks to quit, I don't think any of the experienced players will use it. Who wants to end up in eGWD or even eCC with a bunch of minimum IL pugs? Not fun, not worth the time, not a smart design decision.
We just decided to go on strike and just form our own team."
The key here is that buffs>>dps. I've been in a 3xDPS party (TR, HR, SW) and that was a major fail.
I do agree with most of your post, good sir, and yes, Banishment is useless. But Relentless Avenger does have its purpose. It is a disruptive skill, meaning instead of turning your back to the eye, you can disrupt it! It also generates aggro and pulls the mobs towards you once they recover, which isn't very long. I'm tired of people knocking this skill, because when used properly, it can be extremely useful. I've played a tank for years, and the problem with full Bulwark is recharge time on skills. You have to completely set your tank up with different attributes, and I don't enjoy spending hours on dailies because I can hardly damage anything (I believe you mentioned time is important?)
My two pennies...
Original Serenity Mostly Retired DC
Tokarek Bearded Dwarven OP Tankadin
JuiceHead Goofy Human GWF
Member of H3llzWarriors and Limitless.