Fix the lack of tanks and clerics.

dragonwizard · September 2017

If your level 70 DPS main has done the campain boons then just UNLOCK every boon on a fresh level 70 tank or cleric.

The problem with lack of tanks and clerics is that they are NOT DPS and thus struggle to unlock the campain boons resulting in a lack of tanks and clerics.

This way any main DPS can roll a fresh tank or cleric to get to 70 and the imbalances of the game go away.

Please roll back the random ques as they are just not the proper solution to the lack of tanks and clerics.

Thanks.

namelesshero347 · September 2017

Loadouts fix the issue with tanks and healers soloing PvE content. It came at the right time too because I would never take my tank GF through Chult if it didn't happen.

sleepy725 · September 2017

No no no. So a player that just runs through content can skip what DC and tanks go through? Get out of here with that. You know why there aren't more DC and tanks? It's because the majority of players are selfish and only care about doing the most DPS, they don't care about the team. The funny thing is anytime a tank or DC actually gets good the DPS players whine and get us nerfed.

expaxi · September 2017

Your title highlights that we have only -one- healing class that is being viewed as viable for support. We are most likely going to continue to have a problem until OP and dare I say Warlocks are able to be competitive with Clerics. Until then, most likely we will continue to experience an imbalance.

meirami · September 2017

Alright, I'm going to assume @dragonwizard meant that all campaign boons should be account-wide unlocks because what about healers and tanks who have dps alts?

That said:

1) You don't need campaign boons to play any content in this game, although of course they can help.

2) It is actually easier to do solo content than ever before, because now we have loadouts. So, make yourself a solo build with enough armor penetration and offensive feats, and life will start making sense again.

3) You can even buy campaign completion tokens if you get really lazy.

And if this all sounds like too expensive and/or time-consuming, maybe go play a class you actually like, instead of a class you don't value enough to put any effort in.

kiraskytower · September 2017

expaxi said:
Your title highlights that we have only -one- healing class that is being viewed as viable for support. We are most likely going to continue to have a problem until OP and dare I say Warlocks are able to be competitive with Clerics. Until then, most likely we will continue to experience an imbalance.

Clerics aren't really used so much as a "healing" class these days, they are a buffing class. In fact they are so effective as a buffing class that end game content is far, far more difficult without their buffs. It's been a long time since they really healed in dungeons. Most of the time people rely on their lifesteal to heal the occasional hit that does not kill them outright.

Devotion OPs make fine healers ... and OK buffers. Warlocks? Temptation warlocks can heal ... but struggle to provide much in the way of meaningful buffs.

Once Mod 12B drops and we actually have to run things in random queues for ADs the lack of clerics and tanks is going to be even worse. Warlocks are not going to help at all here because the queue considers them a DPS class, whether or not they are speced as healers. A GF, 3 CWs and a templock will not be able to queue for a random queue together, they will need to drop one CW or the templock and pick up a Devotion OP or DC.

meirami · September 2017

@expaxi You are mistaken if you believe Devotion Paladins are in a direct competition with Devoted Clerics for the same party slot. They aren't because 1) public queue takes whoever queues first, and 2) private parties won't take two paladins because the auras don't stack and people always want a Tankadin. So, nerfing DC won't free up a slot to a Devotion Paladin, because the real rival is much closer to home.

As for Temptation Warlocks, the queue doesn't recognize Temptlocks as healers and that's hardly DC's fault. Or maybe it is, if all our devs are secretly DCs.

pyrosorcerer · September 2017

Not fix the lack of them, fix the imbalance in the role system and class balancing. The need for each class would then fix itself

aftershafter · September 2017

I'm not even sure there is a lack of GFs in the game. They're obviously not the most popular class, but I would be there are a lot more GFs than clerics.

I mainly play two classes - Cleric and GF. My experience getting into instances through the public queue is that my cleric is in in seconds to minutes on any popular dungeon, whereas my GF waits and waits and waits. Now, I don't know how their algorithm works, but my suspicion is that the short wait for my cleric and the long wait for my GF reflects the supply/demand situation.

My guess is that a lot of people who play GFs don't really like tanking. I constantly see people calling for tanks and clerics in Protector's Enclave, meanwhile my GF waits in line in the public queue and my DC gets into instances *far* faster on average. I think that when someone is asking for a GF to tank in an instance, specifically, most GFs don't answer because that's not really what they want to do - they picked a class with a sword and they want to sit in the middle of enemies and seeing how high they can get on the paingiver chart... Meaning that when specifically asked to tank, they're not likely to sign up. The public queue simply asks them to show up, not specifically to tank, so they all sign up for that instead.

GFs are a class that are designed to not show up that high on any chart - other than, maybe, paingiver. They can do decently on there. Even on damage taken they usually top the chart, but it's a small topping since, even though they're taking 90% of the hits, they mitigate so much damage they don't lead by much. On the other hand a GF can look like the hero if he's first or second on the Paingiver charts while doing zilch to protect the group. I don't think one can underestimate the effect these charts have on the psyche of a gamer.

preechr · September 2017

The main reason there aren't more DCs, GFs and OPs is because 90% of the players think we are weak and can't do damage
You can run any of these up to 70 with the same ease as you could any other class, and campaign progression is no more difficult... It really is not ANY harder than for a dps class
For every complaint in the forums about not being able to campaign in Chult as a support class, the answer is always that they are not set up or geared up appropriately.... There's thousands of support classes out there having no problems
There is generally not much need to even get a high item level for a support class unless you really want to run FBI, MSP or ToNG, but if you are doing that, that's no longer just an alt
My DC could solo campaign in Chult and run T1-2 content all day long at 12k, though I am building him up a bit so he can be effective in the T3 dungeons, and my 12k GF has no issues campaigning or dungeoning either

rafaelda · September 2017

not many with good gear ae building support toons these days because was really hard to level cmapaings to get the boons with support before the Loudout, now you can change to a more dps build, (My GF is really good to solo play these days) but theres just too much grind to hit hight end not paying to level a new toon (for boons i mean).

anyway dev have said they wiill give some kind of token to a toon that ended a campaing, that token will in some extent lesser the grind for a new toon, so i belive that a lesser version of what you want is coming with mod 12b...

PS. hope it really comes so my OP can be reborn...

qexotic · September 2017

rafaelda said:
anyway dev have said they wiill give some kind of token to a toon that ended a campaing, that token will in some extent lesser the grind for a new toon, so i belive that a lesser version of what you want is coming with mod 12b...

PS. hope it really comes so my OP can be reborn...

Not quite, you have to grind away a stack of extra campaign currency so you can then purchase the token you're talking about. They are not being given away. The additional grind for the currency means you don't actually save that much in terms of overall grind required. Only players who still have a good stack of campaign currency left over/accumulated from the time they have already spent in a particular area will see any real benefit from this latest idea.

onodrain · September 2017

It is funny that the OP knows so little about tanks. The lack of tanks and clerics is exactly what others have said...ignorance and people want to be top DPS (not bother helping others). Funniest to me is the DPS that run ahead so they can get the first strikes so they can get top of paingiver. eToS trash has a habit of eating those people.

Word: when you get more than 30 ft from your OP or DC, you lose their auras. So you do less damage.

Tanks are the easiest classes to level. I leveled all 8 classes. The easiest was an OP. A well played OP can handle the most difficult solo content with ease. Followed by the GF. My main is a DC and once you learn to use the proper skills and dodge, then it is much easier and similar to leveling a DPS class, since the DC can be a DPS class. The key with many classes and leveling is to stay within the appropriate level of content.

Once you have one level 70, it is much easier to get more, as level 70 companion gear and higher rank enchants/runes can be used on low level companions without being scaled down.

My OP is very fun to play. I tank or heals. Whatever I feel like doing. I mainly heal in PUGs because it is fun for me. I have never been booted from a PUG. Never had an issue as a DevOP when there was a ProtOP. People want to get through the content fast. And a DevOP, specced properly, can buff, heal and DPS with either GF or ProtOP. No problems getting a group with public Q. And due to my DPS as a DevOP, we clear content fast. I am usually in the top 2 on paingiver, without really trying, since my heals are the engine for my DPS.

My DC is also fun to play. Just very different from DevOP. For public Q PUGs, I heal more while maintaining my buffs, so not much room to DPS. I could use more DPS loadouts, but what fun is that for the group? I need to let the DPS keep some dignity. So I buff them out the wazzoo and let them top the charts. And I give the weak tanks (and squishy DPS) some breathing room by throwing them an Astral Shield.

namelesshero347 · September 2017

Automatically giving boons to tanks and heals will only add more incompetent tanks and heals to the population. You have to want to tank/heal to be good at it. Take a look at the T2 dungeons, quite a lot of tank/heal alts that don't know what they are doing and are only there to be carried for RAD/shirt/pirate hat.

Yesterday, I popped into eGWD at the boss room with an OP and HR both 11.5K. I thought it was going to be an easy kill. Turned out to be sad, and kind of funny. The OP "tanked" the boss by kiting him around the map. So the DPS were all chasing after the boss, and leaving my buff area.
When we inevitably wiped, they tried to kick the low DPS. I just laughed, told them DPS is not the problem, and left. Wasn't even worth a second try. I can protect a min iLvl tank that knows how to tank the boss but there was no saving that run since the OP and HR were in the same guild.

pyrosorcerer · September 2017

preechr#2215 said:
The main reason there aren't more DCs, GFs and OPs is because 90% of the players think we are weak and can't do damage
You can run any of these up to 70 with the same ease as you could any other class, and campaign progression is no more difficult... It really is not ANY harder than for a dps class
For every complaint in the forums about not being able to campaign in Chult as a support class, the answer is always that they are not set up or geared up appropriately.... There's thousands of support classes out there having no problems
There is generally not much need to even get a high item level for a support class unless you really want to run FBI, MSP or ToNG, but if you are doing that, that's no longer just an alt
My DC could solo campaign in Chult and run T1-2 content all day long at 12k, though I am building him up a bit so he can be effective in the T3 dungeons, and my 12k GF has no issues campaigning or dungeoning either

ha.. ha.. ha.. It is not given the fact that people think they deal less damage. It all in all ends up to each individual playstyle. Current meta has 2/5 playing DC, 2/5 as a tank type class (OP/GF) and last 1 person in dps role. For this setup to work nicely the game population would have to consist of about 20% DPS toons, 40% DCs, and 40% tank types where it should be equally many OPs as GFs. This however is not how the population is as of today or has ever been.

The meta forces 80% of the game population into playing 3 of the 8 classes that are in the game. Where in reality probably 80% of the population is more interested in the 5 other classes. This leaves a massive imbalance in how many of each class there are.

The only way to make the game work nice is to actually make the game fit the player population's interest, as in if the population is not interested anymore they leave and find another more interesting game. A meta with 1 tank, 1 heal and 3 dps would fit the game far better than what it is today, and hopefully it seems their long term goal is having this as their setup. How they get there will be interesting, if they have time to get there

jameswesten · September 2017

Would gladly hear a developer opinion on this topic.

I think a Dev OP would be a good alternative with HP build and AoC. They can also manage that CW's (MoF) could debuff more than DC's. Just n Idea

preechr · September 2017

When you say meta, you are only talking about class compositions for FBI (sort of,) MSP and T9G
Only part of the player base is running those dungeons, and only part of that group is so obsessed with doing it in the absolute least amount of time that they will only run strictly by the meta, and I would venture those types of players probably find as much enjoyment in excluding others as they do in running the content, possibly more
The game doesn't enforce the meta... some players do, and those that think its the ONLY way to run that content are missing out on the fun of running a dungeon, in my opinion

Go "waste your time" running content non-optimally... the challenge can be fun and if you enjoy playing with the people struggling with you, you may get more reward than some stupid seals
If I go into a MSVA, I'll talk to the other DC and we will work out a complimentary setup based on our strengths... I will not join a group that requires me to set up their way, and I will generally ignore "advice" from PUGs... I play my DC, not them... they can make one and play it if they want
There are plenty of players that are taken the time to LEARN their class and develop some real skills rather than copy some template from MMOminds, and those kind of players aren't the ones that are scared to run content outside of the "meta" because they take pride in their performance and experience and are confident in their ability

Not to say its bad to speedrun... Hey, if that's the only way you can have fun in the game, have at it... But that's your choice or affliction... the game is not forcing that on anyone, in fact, the devs don't much like the idea of a player constructed rule that makes the players feel like they HAVE TO build and play a certain way

Lots of us were trying our best to run the tier 2 dungeons at the minimum item level with whoever we could get in our guild to go along, and yes, we failed a lot, and we spent hours and hours in those dungeons, but it made us better players for the effort

If you are already 14-16k and well qualified for T9G but can't find a group, expand your search to channels like Legit or something... there's a group for you out there

My other comment was directed at the OP, and all this is kind of in the same vein... People that take "meta" as the holy word of God are generally the same people that read that there's a shortage of support classes and start whining about that... whether it's actually true or not
Same thing goes with the idea that support classes are hard to level up, which is what this thread was about.... just because people say it a lot doesn't mean its AT ALL true

Unknown · September 2017

This content has been removed.

rickcase276 · September 2017

I have not seen a lack of them either. The majority of people in my guild, and in my alliance mostly main OPs or DCs.

asterotg · October 2017

Before load outs I, back, when LS still rewarded ADs I decided to build more alts. Easiest class, IMO, was GF. Run as a GF conqueror, to level up and build a tactican, when you are done. With high enough IL you can switch back to conqueror and tank, buff and do dmg.

I leveled up my DC in Mod 1, so I cant say, if it easy now or not, but the lazy way, to lvl an alt is, to level it until it can pray and do the rest by praying.

draugkir · October 2017

the lack of ops and dcs has to do with one simple thing : people wanting to be top dps and not many wanting to teamplay.

armadeonx · October 2017

Having a viable endgame tank (either) & DC is the fastest way to make AD. Finding a premade is easy and pug queues pop very quickly compared to being a dps.

As such, your number of runs per hour increases and so you earn more.

ladypeanut66 · October 2017

Maybe delete the charts so peoplewon't compete for paingiver or whatever? It is somehow unfair that DPS have a chart but DCs, with all their buffs, don't have a buff/debuff chart or something like that. I don't main a DC and I am fairly new doing dungeons with it, but I always get super confused because I don't know if I am doing something or not xD

But, really, delete the charts or do something about them that prevents DPS to run ahead to get the paingiver top 1.

armadeonx · October 2017

ladypeanut66 said:
Maybe delete the charts so peoplewon't compete for paingiver or whatever? It is somehow unfair that DPS have a chart but DCs, with all their buffs, don't have a buff/debuff chart or something like that. I don't main a DC and I am fairly new doing dungeons with it, but I always get super confused because I don't know if I am doing something or not xD

But, really, delete the charts or do something about them that prevents DPS to run ahead to get the paingiver top 1.

I agree that paingiver introduces competition within the group and is counter to collective play. I would be happy to see it removed. Perhaps just show players their personal contribution so they can judge their effectiveness but not placed on a chart comparing them to the rest of the team.

beckylunatic · October 2017

draugkir said:
the lack of ops and dcs has to do with one simple thing : people wanting to be top dps and not many wanting to teamplay.

I really love how this is still somehow flipped to being blamed on support classes when the core problem is a surplus of DPS players.

bitt3rnightmar3 · October 2017

beckylunatic said:

draugkir said:
the lack of ops and dcs has to do with one simple thing : people wanting to be top dps and not many wanting to teamplay.
I really love how this is still somehow flipped to being blamed on support classes when the core problem is a surplus of DPS players.

This. I have minimal desire to actually play a dps...which is why the characters I actually play are support.

asterotg · October 2017

Nice to see, that ppl playing dps characters complain, that other ppl play dps characters and not support. Reminds me of a friend (SW), who complained, that I unlocked MSVA with my main and not with my DC, bc it would be more convenient for him, to have one more DC for his MSVA runs.

armadeonx · October 2017

expaxi said:
Your title highlights that we have only -one- healing class that is being viewed as viable for support. We are most likely going to continue to have a problem until OP and dare I say Warlocks are able to be competitive with Clerics. Until then, most likely we will continue to experience an imbalance.

I actually think OPs and SWs are competitive with DCs but most people are clueless as to the abilities of these classes. People run metas without understanding mechanics. They do it because others do it.

jaime4312 · October 2017

beckylunatic said:

draugkir said:
the lack of ops and dcs has to do with one simple thing : people wanting to be top dps and not many wanting to teamplay.
I really love how this is still somehow flipped to being blamed on support classes when the core problem is a surplus of DPS players.

This right here people, this right here.

Original poster, the best way to address the lack of tanks and clerics is... people making tanks and clerics. There are way too many dps mains only out there who complain about lack of supports but refuse to make one themselves.

osu0148 · October 2017

I think it's going in this direction in my opinion. I already found myself leveling up a DC to even be able to get into TONG (currently main a neglected SW). I'm sure many others are doing the same...or just quit lol!

plasticbat · October 2017

This has been the 'direction' for a long time. I look at my peers. People has been raising multiple classes for a few mods if not longer already. People used to play DPS class, has been raising support classes. People used to play support classes has been raising DPS class and other support classes. When people complaining about shortage of a class, the solution starts from them. Make a new character to cover the shortage.

Oh! We need strong DPS. Let me bring a GWF.
Oh! We need some DPS. Let me bring a TR or SW.
Oh! We need buff, Let me bring a DC.
Oh! We need a tank, Let me bring an OP.
Oh! We need a warm body. Let me see who still has not run today.

Fix the lack of tanks and clerics.

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