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Official Feedback Thread: PVP Changes

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  • whitestaruawhitestarua Member Posts: 175 Arc User
    @sgrantdev#8718
    And give to Trapper more damage.. cmon...
    Is too low.

  • demolitioninc#2453 demolitioninc Member Posts: 108 Arc User
    @macjae for GWF's its a wet dream in theory - in practise there will be even more TR's in PvP and we GWF's have no way of getting out of CB. So reality is, I am getting stuck in CB and everybody beats on me.
    Speaking for GWF's not much has changed until we have a way to break CB.
    1. PzkwVI_Kingtiger - GWF
    2. PMS-Extreme - Moffus Debuffos
    3. Tiamat's Toyboy - OP
    4. Rent-A-DC - 1 GMOP per 30 minutes
    5. Officer at Civil Anarchy, Member of Fabled Alliance
  • mamalion1234mamalion1234 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,363 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    rayrdan said:

    considering that transcendnent elven battle CC resist never worked in pve and in pvp control is getting nerfed to the oblivion, can you consider to swap the control resistance from this enchantment to additional % movement speed?

    Elven battle worked against aynone be opressor be gf with the crescendo? what else you want as example?
    ONly vs trapper didnt work because the cc duration reduction doesnt matter vs the crushing and perma roots.
  • mamalion1234mamalion1234 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,363 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    luks707 said:

    Glad to see this thread started.
    Quick comments
    1. Please fix the SH Siege q. Even when we all wanted to use it, you had to solo q and you would be unable to determine teams on each side. It is great to see it get some love and (as a former alpha tester) I think it has a lot of potential particularly with the proposed changes. But you need to make it easy for people to get in and to do so cooperatively with people who would like. Perhaps the system developed for private pvp can be adapted her where guilds and alliances can challenge each other, fill up a roster and q?
    2. I welcome the tenacity change. While many of us have more tenacity than that, I think actually reducing it slightly will help make fights more exciting. Opening the door to newbie PVErs and still keeping pvp gear special in pvp is a good move.
    3. Now that we're rid of tenacity and item levels take into account everything - please please introduce Item Level brackets. Even if you start with a bracket for 12.5k and above I think this will help enormously to get players to start PVPing and enjoy it before being crushed by those who have been gathering IL for years. Alternatively the q should match people so that each team as close as possible total item level, but that feels like unnecessary work.
    4. CC Diminishing Returns - I think this is a good idea in principle but if so - you need to allow those who are doing CC the chance to still be effective, i.e. the first time you use it needs to be felt. Otherwise Trapper HR, CW (Oppressor) etc. will have no place.
    5. There are a lot of other issues in PVP covered fully elsewhere that are ruining the fun (and have kept me out of it most recently). Please make fixing those a priority as hopefully these changes will bring lots of new faces in who should get a good impression.

    Opressor didnt have any place as controler vs elven battle enchantment i can make a video of this how long stay controled players using elven battle. a split second? Trapper get a hard hit of it who was the really concern with the perma roots-dazes.


    AS opressor didnt matter even my capstone to do what ? stun for a split second? Already players walking on smoke bombs and terrains with an elven battle and i can do that on my cw who has a lot control resist ( with negation) i dont bring the repel into discussion since is all trees encounter.

  • theguiidotheguiido Member Posts: 467 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    @sgrantdev#8718 CC change is absolutely amazing. I really appreciate the change. It was much needed. I hope this is only the start of the PvP changes.
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  • zeusomzeusom Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 810 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    @sgrantdev#8718 @terramak @rgutscheradev

    As a pvp player since module 4 I can say overall the changes are very good and long time coming.
    We have waited for many of these for a long while. Thanks for attention to pvp.

    A few thoughts..

    1. Pvp requires major elements of damage, control, and healing all tuned but control was overnerfed here.
    In effect, CB needed some nerf but instead was the only significant control left intact.

    2. The PvP Strategist piece that gives up to a 100% damage bonus is too much and favors already strong classes.
    Burst damage is king in pvp. In effect, this piece buffs burst power of already strong burst classes (GWF, GF etc) to do a potentially huge single dmg hit (SE, IBS, Anvil etc) while doing nothing for weaker low burst pvp damage classes like SW and HR.

    3. Please for love of God let us change loadouts out of combat at a portable alter in pvp and pve. I can change my clothes in the backseat of a car in a Wendy's parking lot then why can't my toon.

    4. Personal note: SW my main has been THE MOST gimpy in pvp since they were born in mod4 and is the only class to have NEVER gotten a turn at being overpowered in pvp. Keep that in mind, please.



    Sopi (aka Haxbox) SW [Synergy]
    Sopi SW Youtube channel pvp brickabrack

  • kalina311kalina311 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,000 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    theguiido said:

    @sgrantdev#8718 CC change is absolutely amazing. I really appreciate the change. It was much needed. I hope this is only the start of the PvP changes.

    comming from the most overpowered class thats stand to gain the most with this broken cc resist mechanics did you actually test it bro just lol
  • kalina311kalina311 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,000 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    @DEVS can you give us some example of what classes powers and abilities were stun locking too much (including attacking people with elven ) such that you needed to put a global diminishing cc return instead of adjusting said classes encounters / dailies

    introducting cc dimishing returns would indicate all classes were doing it with no counter or ways to break free which is not the case


    unless you guys think this is a bandaid fix instead of actually having/ coding power work one way in pvp and one way in pve i am tending top lean on this answer even tho there are some powers that are already coded differently for pvp / pve .. what cant you guy code the anoying stunnlocky powers to be half as effective and have a poll list of what they are

    do you even know what you are adjusting and why ... or is this just a knee jerk reacting ,... to much control must nerf all controll globally instead of the source .. I i know what went on in the meeting oh we will get to that when we get to X Y Z class blah blah .... no some of these overperforming class powers need 1 or 2 fixes now and cant wait till "YOU GET TO THEM"


    perhaps the cc dimishing returns timers should be on certain the powers themselves NOT necessarily on the players
    Post edited by kalina311 on
  • plaviaplavia Member Posts: 540 Arc User
    Tenacity Rework:
    60% armor pen reduction
    40% critical severity mitigation
    40% damage mitigation
    we get all this and ArP is cut by half?
    is it the additional layer that protect us from one hit kill piercing damage?

    CC Diminishing Returns;
    i assume this replace ~40% control resist tenacity give.
    is it addtional layer as well?
    I got 100% control resist with elven and stat. so i reduce duration by 1/2
    with the new system one stack is it 1/2.25 or 0.75/2

    does it apply to prun/knock control powers?
    does it apply to iresistable control attack such as smoke bomb or Repel? courage breaker?
    what if the attack is several control effects, each one counts? (DC hammers, Focal point, courage breaker...)

    Rewards:
    appreciate the nice reward of Strongholds PvP but this one bugged.
    only reason we did it before was the armor and probably will do it again only for the reward.
    its big map with 40 players + mobs. it got terrible time glitches.
    a GF killed me with 10 conecutive Crescendo. sometimes i die and i found about it 5 sec after.
    no one know all the companions bugs, they make crazy piercing damage.
    the cap methohd is broken, one TR that dodge abit can hold cap against 20 ppl. one immortal OP/DC can hold against many ppl as well.
    GG give 0 reward and its part of the campaign. can you give both domination and GG Conqueror Shards? that alone will push guilds to do it
    Icewind also in the campaign and does not give reward or active.

    Class Changes:
    I understand the need to make DC die in 1:1 situation. but you keep buffing damage and nerf clerics.
    at least give them a chance to kill something if you don't want them to play tank.
  • zeusomzeusom Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 810 Arc User
    macjae said:

    Just to look at overall balance as it currently stands on Live against where these changes will go as they currently stand (looking mostly at the predominant builds):

    OPs -- are currently impossible to kill without massive debuffs and/or CC, while they can output a lot of CC to control a node and still deal fairly massive damage. They've always been overpowered to some degree. These changes will make them harder to kill and do nothing to rein in the excessive amounts of damage they are capable of outputting with some builds.

    GWFs -- capable of massive burst damage, are tanky and very mobile, can escape alive from most situations. Their only real weaknesses currently are being proned and burst down, being pushed away, or being CBed (which is worse for them than most given that they're melee). The changes mostly just provide them with some help by giving them even more CC immunity tools.

    GFs -- capable of massive burst damage, aren't quite as tanky as GWFs once their block is down and quite passive as long as their block is up. Their main CC powers and burst routines really aren't affected much by the changes to CC because they have long cooldowns and high effect when they're up.

    TRs -- because SoD is so broken currently, they can output massive damage, they retain excellent survivability tools, and their CC is pretty much completely unaffected by these changes. So basically, their effectiveness is undiminished.

    DCs -- the recent change to Astral Shield was a good one for reining in DC immortality. However, by now nerfing CC, that has a countervailing tendency. Some of the CC that DCs have, such as the spammable stuns from BtS, will probably be hugely nerfed by the CC immunity system.

    HRs -- the Trapper build is FUBAR. Presently, they can permaroot to too great of an extent; even wearing Elven Battle, their roots will be constantly impeding you from doing much. With the incoming changes, they'll just be a waste of space in a team. Combat HRs will remain alright, and Archers might have some interesting options with the changes to crit. But overall, HRs aren't in a top spot, but not useless either.

    CWs -- probably the class that will lose the most from these changes. They're currently in a good position, but other classes beat them in 1v1 scenarios and are better/more mobile for rotating and holding/capping or clearing fast. The strength of CWs stems more from their ability to retain control of a node with people often being too hard to kill with the excessive healing that's going on. That makes control more important than it would be if damage and healing were in a better state of balance.

    SWs -- the weakest class, and it will probably remain so. They lack damage relative to other classes most of all -- their dots get outhealed, and in the areas they're good, other classes surpass them -- GWFs and TRs are more mobile, for example. Ironically, one of the changes being made also seems to remove one of their only strengths; the ability to kill OPs fast through buggy infinite loop damage.

    I think the overall idea of introducing a mechanic to diminish CC is a good one, but it doesn't necessarily improve class balance much as it stands right now. There's also a real risk that it might worsen the gameplay in some ways, basically reducing PVP to a state of just hitting each other and whoever has the best ratio of damage/tankiness wins. Some of the most problematic CC effects aren't really being dealt with at all, and some of the classes won't really be affected much by them.

    @rgutscheradev @sgrantdev#8718

    All this = Accurate.
    Good write up.
    Sopi (aka Haxbox) SW [Synergy]
    Sopi SW Youtube channel pvp brickabrack

  • sgrantdev#8718 sgrantdev Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 22 Cryptic Developer
    plavia said:


    does it apply to prun/knock control powers?
    does it apply to iresistable control attack such as smoke bomb or Repel? courage breaker?
    what if the attack is several control effects, each one counts? (DC hammers, Focal point, courage breaker...)

    The immunity from this is not a new immunity type. We are applying a cc immunity effect that is already used in game on powers like Channeled Divinity and the Guardian Fighter's block. If a power normally goes through that immunity you should see the same here. That power should also say that it ignores CC immunity in the description. An example of this would be Courage Breaker.

    In response to the point about attacks with multiple effects, stacks should be added per power not effect. A power that has multiple CC effects should only add one stack. This is also true for CC powers that constantly apply their effects with each tick. The first application of the effect creates a stack and that is it.

    As a general update we have made an internal change to the system based on feedback. It will now apply the immunity for 15 seconds before resetting all stacks back to 0. This should help make this system feel less draconian and allow you to predict when someone is open to CC effects a little easier. We will roll that out as soon as we feel it is ready for preview.

  • andre#8369 andre Member Posts: 61 Arc User
    [Combat (Self)] Resenberg deals 103310 (167994) Physical Damage to you with Shadow of Demise.

    :blush:

    Yo, dev. When you get time, can you look into SoD? I'd rather you revert that and bring back first strike SE LOL
  • icexnineicexnine Member Posts: 66 Arc User

    plavia said:


    does it apply to prun/knock control powers?
    does it apply to iresistable control attack such as smoke bomb or Repel? courage breaker?
    what if the attack is several control effects, each one counts? (DC hammers, Focal point, courage breaker...)

    The immunity from this is not a new immunity type. We are applying a cc immunity effect that is already used in game on powers like Channeled Divinity and the Guardian Fighter's block. If a power normally goes through that immunity you should see the same here. That power should also say that it ignores CC immunity in the description. An example of this would be Courage Breaker.

    In response to the point about attacks with multiple effects, stacks should be added per power not effect. A power that has multiple CC effects should only add one stack. This is also true for CC powers that constantly apply their effects with each tick. The first application of the effect creates a stack and that is it.

    As a general update we have made an internal change to the system based on feedback. It will now apply the immunity for 15 seconds before resetting all stacks back to 0. This should help make this system feel less draconian and allow you to predict when someone is open to CC effects a little easier. We will roll that out as soon as we feel it is ready for preview.

    @sgrantdev#8718
    To be clear, you can see the problem with Courage Breaker ignoring CC immunity, right? Can't tell because you just casually mention it, then move on. Not that's it's the only thing laughably broken *cough*GF burst dmg*cough*, but for sure some skill-less TR shouldn't be able to hold you still for an entire match. I don't even see how that could be up for debate.

    Also, Courage Breaker is only meant to slow your movement, not reduce it to 0% and stay that way as far as i understand, and some TRs, though not all, will make it so you can't even move, which is fantastic for dodge-less classes.

    That being said, i'm not on PC and obviously haven't tested any of the 12b changes.
  • kalina311kalina311 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,000 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    @sgrantdev

    oh great based on "feedback" they increased the duration.. where in this thread feedback do we say that we want the cc resist to last even longer? we do say that we want it to build more gradually tho and have more increments ...maybe allow 2 rotations.. i see what yous guy are trying to do here tho not allowing more then 1 cc rotation every 15 seconds and not nerfing encounter cool downs .... a


    the system feels more draconian not less now
    again tell us what the design goal of this cc resistance is so we can help tune feedback better
    and out of combat status should reset all immunity stacks to 0 not have 15 seconds grace . does out of combat status reset the stacks to 0 or not ?

    its your time to shine here @sgrantdev engage in some dialog please
    Post edited by kalina311 on
  • kalina311kalina311 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,000 Arc User
    edited September 2017

    I rather see the new CC system dumped in the trashcan and instead you should nerf SOME CC powers that are too much in PvP.

    there is too much Devs time already invested in this broken implemented idea... so its full justification steam ahead ... who will want to admit that development time was wasted or that not enough was allocated
  • schietindebuxschietindebux Member Posts: 4,292 Arc User
    edited September 2017

    No way, you can tell what classes the poster plays by reading that write up. Only the ones he does not play are overpowered, those he plays are weak. Just lulz. I would want to see a write up by an unbiased player.

    Sry, but I have to disagree. Macjae is palying GF same as SW, CW etc. and as far as I can tell is used to be one of the few player in forum with some kind of objectivity. You are pretty wrong in judging I am sure.
  • trentbail21trentbail21 Member Posts: 433 Arc User
    As long as crits do more damage then non crits in pvp with 75% severity I will be happy. If they can do that that would be great.
    Find me in game if you want and send me a domination/ gaunt invite. If you are good and im not busy ill play with you. Im not an elitist ill play with almost anyone.
  • kalina311kalina311 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,000 Arc User
    edited September 2017

    As long as crits do more damage then non crits in pvp with 75% severity I will be happy. If they can do that that would be great.

    oh that looks like it is still broken too some one forgot to update the formula despite being given the exact calculations needed
  • kalina311kalina311 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,000 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    looks like they corrected the wording on it being clear that it is drains getting an internal cool down and not wards thanks you Devs.. the original text said "AP Drain wards see my above quote on page 1 before it was quietly altered" +1 to the devs nice ninja fix lol
  • tripsofthrymrtripsofthrymr Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,624 Community Moderator
    Let's please stay objective and polite. State your thoughts. If you disagree with someone and have specific reasons, by all means share your reasons, but let's keep flaming/fighting/trolling out of the discussion. The more focused and on point it is, the better.
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  • sh00termcl0vinsh00termcl0vin Member Posts: 287 Arc User
    edited September 2017

    plavia said:


    does it apply to prun/knock control powers?
    does it apply to iresistable control attack such as smoke bomb or Repel? courage breaker?
    what if the attack is several control effects, each one counts? (DC hammers, Focal point, courage breaker...)

    The immunity from this is not a new immunity type. We are applying a cc immunity effect that is already used in game on powers like Channeled Divinity and the Guardian Fighter's block. If a power normally goes through that immunity you should see the same here. That power should also say that it ignores CC immunity in the description. An example of this would be Courage Breaker.

    In response to the point about attacks with multiple effects, stacks should be added per power not effect. A power that has multiple CC effects should only add one stack. This is also true for CC powers that constantly apply their effects with each tick. The first application of the effect creates a stack and that is it.

    As a general update we have made an internal change to the system based on feedback. It will now apply the immunity for 15 seconds before resetting all stacks back to 0. This should help make this system feel less draconian and allow you to predict when someone is open to CC effects a little easier. We will roll that out as soon as we feel it is ready for preview.

    @sgrantdev#8718

    I understand your point about the CC immunity bypass component of smokebomb and courage breaker not being effected by the new system, but I think you guys should definitely take a look at CB in general as far as the slowing effect stacking movement speed to 0% and it's duration (which is entirely too long). Currently a TR with 20k+ recovery can spam this power consecutively with no downtime. This requires no skills and is flat out broken in the sense that any class that lacks a dodge is dead in the water the second the first CB lands (pretty much half the classes in the game).

    Not only is this not fun, but it removes any skill component of the TR class in general when they are essentially given an opportunity to control a target 100% of the time with no downside, while they are free to do other things. If you can't include this power in the new CC resist system due to design choice or technical limitations, I understand. However there has been multiple complaints about CB and smoke bomb combo for months posted on these forums that have gone largely ignored. Please test this internally if you don't believe me and I challenge you to come back and say this is fair and good for pvp and the game in general.
    Post edited by sh00termcl0vin on
    image
  • someonediessomeonedies Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,257 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    @sgrantdev#8718
    1) PvP PoV: Will there be any changes to the Swordmaster GWF? In the arena, he is dead, he has no ability to quickly mark the target (which is a real dmg buff) and close the gap (indisputable advantage), unlike an Iron Vanguard with a Threatening Rush.

    Can you find the right balance of this ability between two classes (Guardian Fighter and Great Weapon Fighter)?
    Remove the Threatening Rush stacks for IV GWF (OR give us cooldown reduction with recovery).

    2) Can you show us an output damage calculation under new dmg reduction system (60% armor pen reduction/40% critical severity mitigation/40% damage mitigation).
    FOR "100000 Shocking Execution": Critical and Non Critical.

    Thanks
    Rimuru?
    Dead 🔪
  • plaviaplavia Member Posts: 540 Arc User
    CC Diminishing Returns:
    its still not clear. you introduce addtional control resist layer that completly nerf the current control resist.
    from mod9 PVE is ignoring control resist. i use Trans elven, oghama artifact and control resist stat for PVP only.

    all control powers apply same 25% control immunity.
    if i use frost enchant I hardly slow the target and ill give it 25% control immunity? there are many powers like this.
    Forgemaster Flame, Ray of Frost, Cloud of Steel artifact class feature and many "weak" control powers will buff the target.
    control immunity should be based on time been controled. after 1.5 sec it should remove all control and grant you immunity for 0.5 sec or somethign similar.
  • armadeonxarmadeonx Member Posts: 4,934 Arc User
    I think 15 seconds is too long for immunity, 5 seconds would be more appropriate. You have to consider both sides and find the middle ground.
    Please Do Not Feed The Trolls

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  • armadeonxarmadeonx Member Posts: 4,934 Arc User
    Can I also say that the introduction of stamina and AP drains were the final nail in the coffin for many ex-pvp'ers, myself included.

    I applaud the efforts to correct the issues in pvp but until drains are addressed I have no intention of going back.
    Please Do Not Feed The Trolls

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    Zen De Armadeon: OP
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  • sh00termcl0vinsh00termcl0vin Member Posts: 287 Arc User
    Drains and wards should have just been removed and replaced with different overloads that give bonus for stats in pvp only when slotted (like extra crit percentage etc.) Drains and wards are a failed addition to PvP that got so much negative feedback unanimously among all NW players. I can't believe they are still even in the game at this point.
    image
  • alfalolzalfalolz Member Posts: 161 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    TR - SB and CB should be looked faaaaaaaaar into it.

    also i like the proposed changes from 4 to 8 stacks and DIFFERENT control adds more or less stacks. E.g. - bull charge adds 4 and repel 1 or 2 for example.

    Re-look changes for Bomb (8sec) and only 1 stack? with CB being immune?
    pls look into that,

    Also mayb its time to put Courage Breaker daily a global cool down? so it wont be applied one after the other?
  • lowjohnlowjohn Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,061 Arc User
    edited September 2017

    A new weekly quest has been added for participating in Stronghold PvP.

    So you're removing the quest reward for WINNING sh PVP, and adding one for PARTICIPATING in SH PVP? So people will get this reward win or lose?

    Or is this reward for *winning* a SH PVP match each week?
  • theguiidotheguiido Member Posts: 467 Arc User
    kalina311 said:

    theguiido said:

    @sgrantdev#8718 CC change is absolutely amazing. I really appreciate the change. It was much needed. I hope this is only the start of the PvP changes.

    comming from the most overpowered class thats stand to gain the most with this broken cc resist mechanics did you actually test it bro just lol
    I was referring to the change it's self. The fact the stacks are independent I had no idea about until I read it and it is a genius idea they implemented. Also, every class will benefit from this change. It's a mod 9 PvP rebirth of Debuff/Buff/DPS. Alot more people appreciate this change, than people who don't. I'm not getting into an argument about which class is OP.
    Proteus
    Guardian Fighter
    TLO
    https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/1221446/the-future-of-the-gf/p1 Existing Problems Still In The Guardian Fighter

    https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/comment/12984912m
    Feat Changes I'd like to see in The Guardian Fighter
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