And again, I feel it necessary to ask why this matters so much to you and some others? What is the overall goal of trying to nerf powersharing or buffing? To make dungeons take longer? Are people jealous of the ability of others to do large amounts of DPS? Some of you act like this is a competition with a limited amount of rewards. Does a GWF getting buffed into the clouds dropping 10s of millions of damage IBS hits really effect you in any way? Does it prevent you from enjoying the game? As a support class (GF) I love buff/debuff and making the speed of the run go quicker. I don't have a DPS toon so maybe I am just missing that mentality of "He does too much damage, must nerf him" since I actually enjoy speed runs.
These are private queues. If you don't want to run with people that do this, why don't you make your own queue and run the dungeons your own way? Is the concern that a lot of DPS classes are getting left out? If so, then as a DPS class, sit in PE and ask LF4M 1Tank1Heal 2DPS easy, problem solved. Why is it necessary to nerf the way someone else is running their dungeons? It's not like if they get to the chest first that you wont have that opportunity when you get there.
Also the bondings should stop transfer the power coming from power share or doesnt make sense the change devs made with the brutality-sudden rings marked as buffed stats and stopped proc on companion.
the sudden rings or risings dont proc on pets because they fixed it so it no longer does that anymore it even says on the ring, companions cannot equip
I know that and their supposed goal was to stop the ridiculous stats while a dc ac dc a dc do and an op protection can double buff a player through a companion ( yes ofcourse you will say if the other person has bondings) .
IN Their best in slot and if they have 50k base they can buff a player who owns a companion with companion gear at 7k power the final result will be : 290k power from those three which would be around 100k if companion didnt transfer the buffed power.
Afterall tr deserved the fixes( i dont play tr ) on whirlwind of blades and shadow of demise ( what did double benefits ooo)
THe problem is those classes overdoing their job or do and other jobs at the same time at top level. Imagine a sw templock to start hit for 2m per att will and at the same time does healing buffing.
What we have now make your guardian fighter less desirable because paladin buff a lot with aura of courage ( that scaling with everything) has top level power share. The only way a guardian to fit in a fast party is to be dps . I play too those compositions but that it doesnt mean that we dont need balance because the numbers are just ridiculous.
To all those here saying one should not rock the boat and leave everything as it is, the problem is that nobody wants to play a class that is useless. And is useless is precisely the correct word to use here, if someone has spent lots of time and possibly zen only to find that it does not matter what they do, they will always end up running a dungeon in more than double/triple/4x the time compared to the "correct" classes, that is a damning game experience.
Apart from TR (not completely) the other classes are all useful.
The problem is, they are less needed since there is only one or two slots for them, ,which many classes have to share. Where 1 class, the DC gets 2 slots in a party, OP and GF work well together taking up 1 each, though OP more "required" where the GF is optional.
This is the major problem right now. There needs to be a way to make it so only 1 DC is wanted with 3 DPS/SUPPORT DPS is the preferred setup.
What solution this could be? A slight nerf to DC damage increasing buffs/debuffs with a boost in defensive ones instead? The egghead DCs will have to figure out a fair solution because Cryptic won't know how.
To all those here saying one should not rock the boat and leave everything as it is, the problem is that nobody wants to play a class that is useless. And is useless is precisely the correct word to use here, if someone has spent lots of time and possibly zen only to find that it does not matter what they do, they will always end up running a dungeon in more than double/triple/4x the time compared to the "correct" classes, that is a damning game experience.
Apart from TR (not completely) the other classes are all useful.
The problem is, they are less needed since there is only one or two slots for them, ,which many classes have to share. Where 1 class, the DC gets 2 slots in a party, OP and GF work well together taking up 1 each, though OP more "required" where the GF is optional.
This is the major problem right now. There needs to be a way to make it so only 1 DC is wanted with 3 DPS/SUPPORT DPS is the preferred setup.
What solution this could be? A slight nerf to DC damage increasing buffs/debuffs with a boost in defensive ones instead? The egghead DCs will have to figure out a fair solution because Cryptic won't know how.
OR removing some of the dc buffing and add it to other supports. I gave a small example about forgmaster flame 15 % buff to get rework to have more damage and the 15% buff to go to other class.
In early days control wizard lost personal buffs that transfered to the great weapon fighter. Same happened with a specific feat had the executioner trickster rogue critical teamwork each time a tr critical he gave to his team 5% critical chance. This feat now is on control wizard renegade with the name uncertain allegiance.
i have read every comment in the section and this is my opinion on premade groups and the full supoort
1) unless someone invited me and need help i will never do a non-optimazed group for a run in end game content because i have honestly seen enough runs that tend to take many hours to finish or never finish unless you switch team members and reason being is most people don't know how to play thier class and expect the dungeons to be a walk in the park like etos so i personally run with my friends people who i know can do thier job well so why invite someone i don't know if capable if i aleready know someone who is capable??
2) a lot of people in order to join runs make support classes now and expect to simply be carried because they are "Support" now this is not case with me and just yesterday made this point very clear to me (yesterday i ran a MSP with 2 DC wich both were running AC at same time when i asked for one of them to switch to DO they said it was best this way XD and that they know what they are doing while the debuffs and buffs were extremly non existant at all so the pally and GF and me were doing all the work instead after an hour inside the dungeon at last boss the cleric decided to kick someone for thier failure so i don't trust people playing support anymore and i rather only invite people whom i know instead)
just becuase you main a support class does not mean i should insta invite you i honestly rather have people know what they do then people who think they can play support to join runs if you like to play a class learn how to play it first then get to runs rather than getting to runs had having attitude of a know it all where in reality you know nothing
point is once you made a circle of friends whom you can run content with reguraly you don't need to invite someone else who will slow you down and i don't mind carrying some people from time to time but exploiting us to do it all time isn't how this game supposed to be played you either contribute to a run or don't come at all that's my motto
I like the idea of making dungeon more fun challanging instead of "Oh #@?? onesshoted by xyz" cause im stuck with lag. Damage taken should never by binary (you live or die and nothing between).
If groups making much damage or having much de/buffs, boss calls more adds to do, get more damage resistenz or any other mechanics in that direction. Attacks from bosses and elite adds should not be able to oneshot a player (nearly dead is ok). Instead if a player lost heals they do less damage, less damage = less adds to do. As an idea power is in a relation to hitpoints. This is my 2 cent of solving the 4 support/1dps meta. If doing this well balanced it is more fun then nerfing to the ground all and everything we now have. Boss fight have to be balanced to get finished in a 10-20min timeframe with above changes.
Not to mention nowaday dps players attitude and skillset. They can't even dodge, position or kite. They blame the tank for every dmg and aggro. Or constantly crying if they don't get any buffs.
I even heard GWFs arguing with tanks after getting aggro after using daring shout.
Glass cannon dps paper classes can't even do anything if they don't get it on a silver plate...
Not to mention classes which weren't even that good before this buff maddness(since mod 9) like HRs.
And no I didn't think simply nerfing DCs would be a solution.
Post edited by commanderdata002 on
stock and stone I can master, but there's a Wizard to manage here!
Back in the "old days' - prior to mod 6, GFs and DCs were out in the cold on end game content because you didn't need them - it was all DPS all the time. Thanks to things like the pre-nerf Endless Consumption, DPS classes could speed run dungeons faster w/o tanks. Which really sucked for players who chose the tank and healer classes - regardless of gear you'd get kicked just for the class you chose to play.
IMHO the current status quo is way more balanced, and much preferred.
Excuse me? DC was always needed and after mod4 we always brought GF.
stock and stone I can master, but there's a Wizard to manage here!
And again, I feel it necessary to ask why this matters so much to you and some others? What is the overall goal of trying to nerf powersharing or buffing? To make dungeons take longer? Are people jealous of the ability of others to do large amounts of DPS? Some of you act like this is a competition with a limited amount of rewards. Does a GWF getting buffed into the clouds dropping 10s of millions of damage IBS hits really effect you in any way? Does it prevent you from enjoying the game? As a support class (GF) I love buff/debuff and making the speed of the run go quicker. I don't have a DPS toon so maybe I am just missing that mentality of "He does too much damage, must nerf him" since I actually enjoy speed runs.
These are private queues. If you don't want to run with people that do this, why don't you make your own queue and run the dungeons your own way? Is the concern that a lot of DPS classes are getting left out? If so, then as a DPS class, sit in PE and ask LF4M 1Tank1Heal 2DPS easy, problem solved. Why is it necessary to nerf the way someone else is running their dungeons? It's not like if they get to the chest first that you wont have that opportunity when you get there.
Also the bondings should stop transfer the power coming from power share or doesnt make sense the change devs made with the brutality-sudden rings marked as buffed stats and stopped proc on companion.
the sudden rings or risings dont proc on pets because they fixed it so it no longer does that anymore it even says on the ring, companions cannot equip
I know that and their supposed goal was to stop the ridiculous stats while a dc ac dc a dc do and an op protection can double buff a player through a companion ( yes ofcourse you will say if the other person has bondings) .
IN Their best in slot and if they have 50k base they can buff a player who owns a companion with companion gear at 7k power the final result will be : 290k power from those three which would be around 100k if companion didnt transfer the buffed power.
Afterall tr deserved the fixes( i dont play tr ) on whirlwind of blades and shadow of demise ( what did double benefits ooo)
THe problem is those classes overdoing their job or do and other jobs at the same time at top level. Imagine a sw templock to start hit for 2m per att will and at the same time does healing buffing.
What we have now make your guardian fighter less desirable because paladin buff a lot with aura of courage ( that scaling with everything) has top level power share. The only way a guardian to fit in a fast party is to be dps . I play too those compositions but that it doesnt mean that we dont need balance because the numbers are just ridiculous.
And again, I feel it necessary to ask why this matters so much to you and some others? What is the overall goal of trying to nerf powersharing or buffing? To make dungeons take longer? Are people jealous of the ability of others to do large amounts of DPS? Some of you act like this is a competition with a limited amount of rewards. Does a GWF getting buffed into the clouds dropping 10s of millions of damage IBS hits really effect you in any way? Does it prevent you from enjoying the game? As a support class (GF) I love buff/debuff and making the speed of the run go quicker. I don't have a DPS toon so maybe I am just missing that mentality of "He does too much damage, must nerf him" since I actually enjoy speed runs.
These are private queues. If you don't want to run with people that do this, why don't you make your own queue and run the dungeons your own way? Is the concern that a lot of DPS classes are getting left out? If so, then as a DPS class, sit in PE and ask LF4M 1Tank1Heal 2DPS easy, problem solved. Why is it necessary to nerf the way someone else is running their dungeons? It's not like if they get to the chest first that you wont have that opportunity when you get there.
Also the bondings should stop transfer the power coming from power share or doesnt make sense the change devs made with the brutality-sudden rings marked as buffed stats and stopped proc on companion.
the sudden rings or risings dont proc on pets because they fixed it so it no longer does that anymore it even says on the ring, companions cannot equip
I know that and their supposed goal was to stop the ridiculous stats while a dc ac dc a dc do and an op protection can double buff a player through a companion ( yes ofcourse you will say if the other person has bondings) .
IN Their best in slot and if they have 50k base they can buff a player who owns a companion with companion gear at 7k power the final result will be : 290k power from those three which would be around 100k if companion didnt transfer the buffed power.
Afterall tr deserved the fixes( i dont play tr ) on whirlwind of blades and shadow of demise ( what did double benefits ooo)
THe problem is those classes overdoing their job or do and other jobs at the same time at top level. Imagine a sw templock to start hit for 2m per att will and at the same time does healing buffing.
What we have now make your guardian fighter less desirable because paladin buff a lot with aura of courage ( that scaling with everything) has top level power share. The only way a guardian to fit in a fast party is to be dps . I play too those compositions but that it doesnt mean that we dont need balance because the numbers are just ridiculous.
I know, how horrible of players to work hard on their toons to be able to be very strong at top levels and run with other high lvl toons in private queues. I can't stand it either.
1
gabrieldourdenMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,212Arc User
You can have problem with the naming it is still a problem. Support/utility classes shouldn't do that much damage in the first place! Or dps classes should do more dmg in comparison to them to counter their buff-debuff effects.
Not to mention GFs are just using the imba Griffon's wrath thingy.
Like Lfg fbi/tong need OP - 2 DC only AC+DODC allowed no TR! no SW! is more interesting...
Maybe you should reread that I also said its unique here compared to other mmos!
The problem most people don't realize that these support classes are actually called battle support classes... They buff the whole group damage and they also get self and other classes buff to pull off some really good damage numbers. It is a group game so who cares who does the most damage, as long as you complete the content just fine.
3
mamalion1234Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,415Arc User
Dc was always good to have and gf became viable buffer at mod 4 when into the fray from just speed buff became ap gain-damage-speed buff.
I dont remember 5 dps to be faster than dc-gf-3 dps after mod 4.
> @mebengalsfan#9264 said: > You can have problem with the naming it is still a problem. > Support/utility classes shouldn't do that much damage in the first place! > Or dps classes should do more dmg in comparison to them to counter their buff-debuff effects. > > Not to mention GFs are just using the imba Griffon's wrath thingy. > > Like Lfg fbi/tong need OP - 2 DC only AC+DODC allowed no TR! no SW! is more interesting... > > Maybe you should reread that I also said its unique here compared to other mmos! > > > The problem most people don't realize that these support classes are actually called battle support classes... They buff the whole group damage and they also get self and other classes buff to pull off some really good damage numbers. It is a group game so who cares who does the most damage, as long as you complete the content just fine.
Doesn't matter what a class is categorised. The problem is that groups are calling for 2 of the same class.
If groups only wanted 1 DC there will be slot more groups and spaces for the rest of the playerbase
One of the main problems here - people are running 4 supports 1 dps often not because they simply want to speed run it but because they don't know how to play content (and with high buffs/debuffs they can ignore mechanisms). I did Tong and Msp as single DC ( and 3 dps, like sw, tr, gwf) and it was bit painfull and long (tong lasted to almost 2h). It was clear that we spent most of the time on bosses - not because we're not melting them but because people failed to apply to mechanisms. Took damn 3 tries before people started hunting wraiths at last Tong boss for example. Or screaming for me not using AA but they could just look away from boss stun (Msp 2nd. Not sure if AA works for that, I'm DC DO scrub). People are also doing that because they're just micmicking the rest - they don't know why. They will take 2x dc aa with low power share just for their class and doesn't realize that CW MoF would do a lot better job rather than bad cleric.
BUT you can't say it's not possible to run it with 3 dps 2 supports. I'm fairly certain you can even achieve quite good time if you know what are you doing. The whole meta 4 supports thing matters in private queues. I also run with dc(me) and 4 dps for T2s - it's fine and quick. The 15 min to look for tank is time I would rather spend running through the dungeon already. I usually run FBI with 2 supports too (and even if we took 2nd DC he often doesn't contribute as much as 3rd dps.. good dps is still better that bad dc in my opinion). Any major changes here would just increase time spent in dungeons.. since if you nerf stuff too much not only 4 supports combo will suffer but everyone in general too.
IF I was to nerf anything I would leave thing like dps from supports (highly depends on buffs in party..less supports less dmg) but I would look for buffs/debuffs that stack from the same class.
> You can have problem with the naming it is still a problem.
> Support/utility classes shouldn't do that much damage in the first place!
> Or dps classes should do more dmg in comparison to them to counter their buff-debuff effects.
>
> Not to mention GFs are just using the imba Griffon's wrath thingy.
>
> Like Lfg fbi/tong need OP - 2 DC only AC+DODC allowed no TR! no SW! is more interesting...
>
> Maybe you should reread that I also said its unique here compared to other mmos!
>
>
> The problem most people don't realize that these support classes are actually called battle support classes... They buff the whole group damage and they also get self and other classes buff to pull off some really good damage numbers. It is a group game so who cares who does the most damage, as long as you complete the content just fine.
Doesn't matter what a class is categorised. The problem is that groups are calling for 2 of the same class.
If groups only wanted 1 DC there will be slot more groups and spaces for the rest of the playerbase
Two DC runs are stupid. One there is already a shortage of DCs and a CW or SW can do just as much buffing and debuffing as a second DC.
A pure GF tank IMO is better than a DPS Tank that has higher damage. Yeah the GF DPS tank can do good damage but there are times when they tend to be dead and waiting to be revived as they relied on bondings to hit their defensive cap instead of building up their defensive stats on the character they focused on offensive stats.
DC are a bit trickier but I have seen many forgo healing encounters or at wills for more damage and more buffing but allowing them to do more damage. I'm sorry but if you are a DC going into any content please use Astral Seal and Divine Glow at a minimum for heals. But I have seen many forgo both for more damage and they are the healer in the run.
This game simply have players who want to phew phew phew their way to beat content.
The issue is that there are less players playing support roles as support roles and more player trying to play support roles as DPS. It is why the battle support build exist and if you cannot play it effectively you only hinder your group. I have seen plenty of high IL player try to play the battle role effectively and fail and there are other who do it flawlessly and do well in both damage and their support role.
A few have already said this in different ways, but the current "meta" party is much better than what it was in the past. In the early days of the game people were constantly on the forums wishing the meta was running content with a "rainbow party" meaning 5 different classes. Hey, we are almost there! I was just thinking about this recently, if the new class is a Bard and it is another really good buff/debuff class like the DC then we just may have the true rainbow meta party that so many people asked for in the forums years ago.
1
santralafaxMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,896Arc User
I remember waiting often upwards of 45 minutes for Svardborg groups trying to get 2 dc's and 2 tanks. Never again.
and control wizards suck in the new dungeons, low AC low HP, and they nerfed our damage into the ground. we have no control now. and those of you say cw's can do a lot of dps, yea when you have all rank 12's,bis , and who can afford that.I thought in D&D the wizards were supposed to a ton of damage for the trade off of low AC and HP.
1: We have control is other story if some elite mob have cc immune or high control resistance ( and still driders in tos can be perma controlled) 2:ALL classes do not deal the same damage as someone with rank 12 and i have seen some cw dealin good damage with rank 9 enchantments.:)
I disagree a little bit, about the Cw. So i have an full dps Cw (Spell/Thaum) in my guild, and yes for sure we are running mostly encontent with such an "meta group", he is using an Trans lightning against mobs, and if i am not part of the party, (bc i am busy to do other stuff), i lend him my Trans Vorpal against Bosses, from my Tr, and he could be an beast.
But this is for me the thing of such an "meta group", most people see only the Fbi Speedruns, and thinking this is the only way to clear content, which is not that true.
For me, such an group is build to show what is possible and more important, they can bring each "only dps" class to his full potential, so that at the end it is only a matter of personal skill or time, bc it depends which class fills the "only dps" role. So, such an "meta group" should be able to buff also the nowadays "not that good" dps classes like Sw or Tr, and yes the only question is, will they do it?
Guildwise, we don't care about the "dps only" class in the party, our "supporter" are mostly able to "carry" them through every content, but i do agree this is the advantage to be in an guild, against constantly pugging as lone wolf.
Well. To see the current bonding changes the answer to the topic could be Soon...
this will only make things worse. ToNG is alrdy hard to beat with a medicore group. Imagine how it is when u only do 1/3rd of the dmg u do now. Ppl will be even more picky when making groups
4
santralafaxMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,896Arc User
So first of all, do we all together agree, that actually classes like SW and Tr is in a not that good shape in PvE? Do we? fine. I will show now screenshots from two TonG runs we did yesterday (and i hope i have the permission from Horizon and @michela123 ), it was a semi guild run Gf, DoDc, and me as Tr and with the two guests i have mentioned. These are only "paingiver" screens, bc noone was running ACT at the runs.
On the first run, i was able to get the damage buff against Orcus2.0 on the second it was @tom#6998 with his Gf. I had in both runs some minor issues with small lags and rubberbanding, and if someone is interested, the GS from all of us was between 12k+ (Molun and her DoDc) up to 15k+. (And as a little sidenote, you could see that our guild isn't maxed out)
So the interrested reader begins to ask, for what is this post stands for?
I will proof a little bit, my statement above, that such an "meta group" is able to buff even "weak dps" classes to an point, that only personal skill, knowledge and for sure an decent build for the "weak dps" class matters.
Am i an Top (PvE) Tr? No, definitely. I would say i am near BiS equipped, i have some experience with the class, bc i am playing since open beta, but i am still learning. Skillwise i am clearly not in an league with people like Cass Pocket (haxx), or @sirjimbofrancis , bc of my age, i am often not that concentrated, and simply lacking with neccessary reactions, to avoid attacks.
So i also do agree, that an full pug group is not able to do the same, i do clearly. Not everyone is able to have the best Dc on Pc (@michela123) in the party.
But for me, an important point is nowadays, the toxicity of an major part of the community, bc their class is not in that good shape, like they want to have it. (And believe me, who wouldn't know that better, like us PvE TR and i hope we will still struggle for an tweak in the right direction)
The Cw for example, is for me the most versatile class in the game, with the loadout ability, he could go from Mof Rene up to StormThaum, it depends of the party he/she is in.
So for me, many people should show more courage, if they are able to build such an pug "meta group" , searching in the Pe, lfg chat, "elitist Zerg Channels", for an dps char, that they don't wait for an 16k+ Gwf, when they could easily start the run earlier, if they introduce "weaker dps" classes. And yes again, i know they could often fail miserably, bc it is an pug group and not an full guild run, or an run with guildmates and people you are running often together.
Everyone want to run TONG easy and players don't want to make challenge with a non-classical group build.
Last week I made a group to demonstrate than 2 DCs are not mandatory to run TONG:
My group build was: - OP Tank (myself in this case) - GF for Buff / support DPS - SW Templock for heal/Buff/Debuff - CW Mof Ren for Buff/Debuff - GWF for main DPS
And YES without DCs!!
Why buildind this group? Simply to demonstrate than 2 DCs are not mandatory and challenge the dungeon.
Premade group? No, all players is this group weren't prepared before starting, it was our first try for all of us. Just some volunteers from my friendlist. Vocal: No
How was the run? Funny and very interesting. All of us have to take care and stay concentrated for each fight. That was the best thing of the run. During: 46"27 Wipes: 1 on Orcus avatar (adjustements for the group on a boss fight)
What improvements to the group? I think than the best improvement for this group build is to have a CW Mof Ren specialized on Debuff, which means no dps for the CW.
My recomandations for who want to try to build a similar group: 1. Have a good knowledge of all class mecanisms 2. Stay concentrate to the objective and take your time.
Good luke and good run
Brewald - GWF 18.3k Eleonore - CW Mof Renegade 17.5k Harlgard le Vieux - OP Prot 18.3k Valrik - DC AC 18.2k Furiela - SW Temp 18.1k
1 OP, 2 DO DCs, 1 AA DC and my lill GWF. Duration: 29.45 minutes. How was the run? Extremly smooth. What improves the group? Have fun and play your char well and every dungeon is smooth.
Comments
Imagine a sw templock to start hit for 2m per att will and at the same time does healing buffing.
What we have now make your guardian fighter less desirable because paladin buff a lot with aura of courage ( that scaling with everything) has top level power share.
The only way a guardian to fit in a fast party is to be dps .
I play too those compositions but that it doesnt mean that we dont need balance because the numbers are just ridiculous.
The problem is, they are less needed since there is only one or two slots for them, ,which many classes have to share. Where 1 class, the DC gets 2 slots in a party, OP and GF work well together taking up 1 each, though OP more "required" where the GF is optional.
This is the major problem right now. There needs to be a way to make it so only 1 DC is wanted with 3 DPS/SUPPORT DPS is the preferred setup.
What solution this could be? A slight nerf to DC damage increasing buffs/debuffs with a boost in defensive ones instead? The egghead DCs will have to figure out a fair solution because Cryptic won't know how.
and also the featured satirical comedic adventure "A Call for Heroes".
In early days control wizard lost personal buffs that transfered to the great weapon fighter.
Same happened with a specific feat had the executioner trickster rogue critical teamwork each time a tr critical he gave to his team 5% critical chance. This feat now is on control wizard renegade with the name uncertain allegiance.
1) unless someone invited me and need help i will never do a non-optimazed group for a run in end game content because i have honestly seen enough runs that tend to take many hours to finish or never finish unless you switch team members and reason being is most people don't know how to play thier class and expect the dungeons to be a walk in the park like etos so i personally run with my friends people who i know can do thier job well so why invite someone i don't know if capable if i aleready know someone who is capable??
2) a lot of people in order to join runs make support classes now and expect to simply be carried because they are "Support" now this is not case with me and just yesterday made this point very clear to me (yesterday i ran a MSP with 2 DC wich both were running AC at same time when i asked for one of them to switch to DO they said it was best this way XD and that they know what they are doing while the debuffs and buffs were extremly non existant at all so the pally and GF and me were doing all the work instead after an hour inside the dungeon at last boss the cleric decided to kick someone for thier failure so i don't trust people playing support anymore and i rather only invite people whom i know instead)
just becuase you main a support class does not mean i should insta invite you i honestly rather have people know what they do then people who think they can play support to join runs
if you like to play a class learn how to play it first then get to runs rather than getting to runs had having attitude of a know it all where in reality you know nothing
point is once you made a circle of friends whom you can run content with reguraly you don't need to invite someone else who will slow you down and i don't mind carrying some people from time to time but exploiting us to do it all time isn't how this game supposed to be played you either contribute to a run or don't come at all that's my motto
Damage taken should never by binary (you live or die and nothing between).
If groups making much damage or having much de/buffs, boss calls more adds to do, get more damage resistenz or any other mechanics in that direction.
Attacks from bosses and elite adds should not be able to oneshot a player (nearly dead is ok).
Instead if a player lost heals they do less damage, less damage = less adds to do. As an idea power is in a relation to hitpoints.
This is my 2 cent of solving the 4 support/1dps meta.
If doing this well balanced it is more fun then nerfing to the ground all and everything we now have.
Boss fight have to be balanced to get finished in a 10-20min timeframe with above changes.
They can't even dodge, position or kite. They blame the tank for every dmg and aggro.
Or constantly crying if they don't get any buffs.
I even heard GWFs arguing with tanks after getting aggro after using daring shout.
Glass cannon dps paper classes can't even do anything if they don't get it on a silver plate...
Not to mention classes which weren't even that good before this buff maddness(since mod 9) like HRs.
And no I didn't think simply nerfing DCs would be a solution.
DC was always needed and after mod4 we always brought GF.
Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
I dont remember 5 dps to be faster than dc-gf-3 dps after mod 4.
> You can have problem with the naming it is still a problem.
> Support/utility classes shouldn't do that much damage in the first place!
> Or dps classes should do more dmg in comparison to them to counter their buff-debuff effects.
>
> Not to mention GFs are just using the imba Griffon's wrath thingy.
>
> Like Lfg fbi/tong need OP - 2 DC only AC+DODC allowed no TR! no SW! is more interesting...
>
> Maybe you should reread that I also said its unique here compared to other mmos!
>
>
> The problem most people don't realize that these support classes are actually called battle support classes... They buff the whole group damage and they also get self and other classes buff to pull off some really good damage numbers. It is a group game so who cares who does the most damage, as long as you complete the content just fine.
Doesn't matter what a class is categorised. The problem is that groups are calling for 2 of the same class.
If groups only wanted 1 DC there will be slot more groups and spaces for the rest of the playerbase
and also the featured satirical comedic adventure "A Call for Heroes".
Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
BUT you can't say it's not possible to run it with 3 dps 2 supports. I'm fairly certain you can even achieve quite good time if you know what are you doing. The whole meta 4 supports thing matters in private queues. I also run with dc(me) and 4 dps for T2s - it's fine and quick. The 15 min to look for tank is time I would rather spend running through the dungeon already. I usually run FBI with 2 supports too (and even if we took 2nd DC he often doesn't contribute as much as 3rd dps.. good dps is still better that bad dc in my opinion). Any major changes here would just increase time spent in dungeons.. since if you nerf stuff too much not only 4 supports combo will suffer but everyone in general too.
IF I was to nerf anything I would leave thing like dps from supports (highly depends on buffs in party..less supports less dmg) but I would look for buffs/debuffs that stack from the same class.
A pure GF tank IMO is better than a DPS Tank that has higher damage. Yeah the GF DPS tank can do good damage but there are times when they tend to be dead and waiting to be revived as they relied on bondings to hit their defensive cap instead of building up their defensive stats on the character they focused on offensive stats.
DC are a bit trickier but I have seen many forgo healing encounters or at wills for more damage and more buffing but allowing them to do more damage. I'm sorry but if you are a DC going into any content please use Astral Seal and Divine Glow at a minimum for heals. But I have seen many forgo both for more damage and they are the healer in the run.
This game simply have players who want to phew phew phew their way to beat content.
The issue is that there are less players playing support roles as support roles and more player trying to play support roles as DPS. It is why the battle support build exist and if you cannot play it effectively you only hinder your group. I have seen plenty of high IL player try to play the battle role effectively and fail and there are other who do it flawlessly and do well in both damage and their support role.
2:ALL classes do not deal the same damage as someone with rank 12 and i have seen some cw dealin good damage with rank 9 enchantments.:)
So i have an full dps Cw (Spell/Thaum) in my guild, and yes for sure we are running mostly encontent with such an "meta group", he is using an Trans lightning against mobs, and if i am not part of the party, (bc i am busy to do other stuff), i lend him my Trans Vorpal against Bosses, from my Tr, and he could be an beast.
But this is for me the thing of such an "meta group", most people see only the Fbi Speedruns, and thinking this is the only way to clear content, which is not that true.
For me, such an group is build to show what is possible and more important, they can bring each "only dps" class to his full potential, so that at the end it is only a matter of personal skill or time, bc it depends which class fills the "only dps" role.
So, such an "meta group" should be able to buff also the nowadays "not that good" dps classes like Sw or Tr, and yes the only question is, will they do it?
Guildwise, we don't care about the "dps only" class in the party, our "supporter" are mostly able to "carry" them through every content, but i do agree this is the advantage to be in an guild, against constantly pugging as lone wolf.
Do we? fine.
I will show now screenshots from two TonG runs we did yesterday (and i hope i have the permission from Horizon and @michela123 ), it was a semi guild run Gf, DoDc, and me as Tr and with the two guests i have mentioned.
These are only "paingiver" screens, bc noone was running ACT at the runs.
http://imgur.com/a/i05tf
http://imgur.com/a/tc0iX
On the first run, i was able to get the damage buff against Orcus2.0 on the second it was @tom#6998 with his Gf.
I had in both runs some minor issues with small lags and rubberbanding, and if someone is interested, the GS from all of us was between 12k+ (Molun and her DoDc) up to 15k+.
(And as a little sidenote, you could see that our guild isn't maxed out)
So the interrested reader begins to ask, for what is this post stands for?
I will proof a little bit, my statement above, that such an "meta group" is able to buff even "weak dps" classes to an point, that only personal skill, knowledge and for sure an decent build for the "weak dps" class matters.
Am i an Top (PvE) Tr? No, definitely. I would say i am near BiS equipped, i have some experience with the class, bc i am playing since open beta, but i am still learning. Skillwise i am clearly not in an league with people like Cass Pocket (haxx), or @sirjimbofrancis , bc of my age, i am often not that concentrated, and simply lacking with neccessary reactions, to avoid attacks.
So i also do agree, that an full pug group is not able to do the same, i do clearly.
Not everyone is able to have the best Dc on Pc (@michela123) in the party.
But for me, an important point is nowadays, the toxicity of an major part of the community, bc their class is not in that good shape, like they want to have it.
(And believe me, who wouldn't know that better, like us PvE TR and i hope we will still struggle for an tweak in the right direction)
The Cw for example, is for me the most versatile class in the game, with the loadout ability, he could go from Mof Rene up to StormThaum, it depends of the party he/she is in.
So for me, many people should show more courage, if they are able to build such an pug "meta group" , searching in the Pe, lfg chat, "elitist Zerg Channels", for an dps char, that they don't wait for an 16k+ Gwf, when they could easily start the run earlier, if they introduce "weaker dps" classes.
And yes again, i know they could often fail miserably, bc it is an pug group and not an full guild run, or an run with guildmates and people you are running often together.
Last week I made a group to demonstrate than 2 DCs are not mandatory to run TONG:
My group build was:
- OP Tank (myself in this case)
- GF for Buff / support DPS
- SW Templock for heal/Buff/Debuff
- CW Mof Ren for Buff/Debuff
- GWF for main DPS
And YES without DCs!!
Why buildind this group?
Simply to demonstrate than 2 DCs are not mandatory and challenge the dungeon.
Premade group?
No, all players is this group weren't prepared before starting, it was our first try for all of us.
Just some volunteers from my friendlist.
Vocal: No
How was the run?
Funny and very interesting.
All of us have to take care and stay concentrated for each fight. That was the best thing of the run.
During: 46"27
Wipes: 1 on Orcus avatar (adjustements for the group on a boss fight)
What improvements to the group?
I think than the best improvement for this group build is to have a CW Mof Ren specialized on Debuff, which means no dps for the CW.
My recomandations for who want to try to build a similar group:
1. Have a good knowledge of all class mecanisms
2. Stay concentrate to the objective and take your time.
Good luke and good run
Eleonore - CW Mof Renegade 17.5k
Harlgard le Vieux - OP Prot 18.3k
Valrik - DC AC 18.2k
Furiela - SW Temp 18.1k
1 OP, 2 DO DCs, 1 AA DC and my lill GWF. Duration: 29.45 minutes. How was the run? Extremly smooth. What improves the group? Have fun and play your char well and every dungeon is smooth.