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When will the game meta turn back to 2-3 dps +2 buffer instead of 1 dps+4 buffer? Buff rework maybe?
commanderdata002
Member Posts: 312 Arc User
In the old days we used 2-3 dps+heal+tank.
Currently it's not worth bringing more than one dps to the party. Recent top premade parties clearly shown that fast runs needed
1 dps+4 buffer. Most popular is probably: op+gf+2dc+dps.
If you try to bring another dps the run would slow down because a buffer bring more to the party than a second dps.
They even use these classes to make damage to help the main dps job.
Suprisingly these originally buffer/utility characters can get close in damage to the main dps. A conq-GF could even top that!
They tried to nerf the buffs-debuffs in mod9 with some success. They managed to eliminate 800-1000% effectiveness values.
Then a buff-debuff rework was in mod12 which wasn't really a big nerf. Just simplified the system.
As a dps the game is changing from caring rotation + postioning + dodging to a Pavlov's dog watching buffs like commander's strike. Not fun...
I think if 4 ppl supports one other it gives the people the wrong idea.
Imho runs with more dps characters are more fun.
In which other MMO buffers are this strong(even their dps) and only one dps character needed for a run?
As an officer its also tiresome to tell rookies that "oh you want to be in a party huh"? "Delete your dps character and level a support/buffer"...
Currently it's not worth bringing more than one dps to the party. Recent top premade parties clearly shown that fast runs needed
1 dps+4 buffer. Most popular is probably: op+gf+2dc+dps.
If you try to bring another dps the run would slow down because a buffer bring more to the party than a second dps.
They even use these classes to make damage to help the main dps job.
Suprisingly these originally buffer/utility characters can get close in damage to the main dps. A conq-GF could even top that!
They tried to nerf the buffs-debuffs in mod9 with some success. They managed to eliminate 800-1000% effectiveness values.
Then a buff-debuff rework was in mod12 which wasn't really a big nerf. Just simplified the system.
As a dps the game is changing from caring rotation + postioning + dodging to a Pavlov's dog watching buffs like commander's strike. Not fun...
I think if 4 ppl supports one other it gives the people the wrong idea.
Imho runs with more dps characters are more fun.
In which other MMO buffers are this strong(even their dps) and only one dps character needed for a run?
As an officer its also tiresome to tell rookies that "oh you want to be in a party huh"? "Delete your dps character and level a support/buffer"...
stock and stone I can master, but there's a Wizard to manage here!
Post edited by commanderdata002 on
5
Comments
So take the Gf for example, (you mentioned by yourself) i was able to run content (mostly Fbi) with people like @rjc9000 and i am often impressed how much dps he could deal, even a guildmember (natsu) could do that with his Gf and he is not in the league from Arie.
Also some Op like @slappdaniel are able to deal more than enough dps and this counts also to some DoDc dps builds.
So is such a party (with focus on buff/debuff and! dps) really only a 4 "support" and only one "pure dps " group?
And to the "old days", yeah i remember these days, the zone chat in the Pe or the lfg chat: "Looking for 4 more Cw for fast Cn run. Get away with your Gwf, Hr and Tr. Sw only with the Ilyanbruen Set allowed!"
Game has changed, and i like these whole buff/debuff/dps stuff far more interesting, than the past.
Support/utility classes shouldn't do that much damage in the first place!
Or dps classes should do more dmg in comparison to them to counter their buff-debuff effects.
Not to mention GFs are just using the imba Griffon's wrath thingy.
Like Lfg fbi/tong need OP - 2 DC only AC+DODC allowed no TR! no SW! is more interesting...
Maybe you should reread that I also said its unique here compared to other mmos!
and also the featured satirical comedic adventure "A Call for Heroes".
Really wishing my best geared alt was a D.C. instead of a cw these days.
Here is a successful To9G run with 2 dps (GWF and SW), 1 OP, 1 DC and 1 GF:
I haven't unlocked To9G yet, but as usual, people tend to think that "optimized" groups are the only viable option.
The thing is that people tend to run within their guild/alliance/network. And they obviously don't know everybody.
I also think that the more people get BIS, the more they adopt an elitist attitude (i.e "optimized groups). Which is sad.
It reminds me a discussion the other day: we were looking for a 5th party member for FBI. I suggested to take somebody that never unlocked FBI because the group was already strong enough. But the group leader invited another buffer.... Personally, I would have prefered to help someone rather than "earning" 5 minutes.
> The classes are all out of balance, each attempt at class balance makes things worse. The DPS classes should be given more damage, survivability and utility, or the support classes need to be brought back into balance to be support. If support can replace DPS, DPS should be able to replace suppo> @defiantone99 said:
> The classes are all out of balance, each attempt at class balance makes things worse. The DPS classes should be given more damage, survivability and utility, or the support classes need to be brought back into balance to be support. If support can replace DPS, DPS should be able to replace support.
The dps classes do have their place still and are totally accepted. Apart from TR.. the real issue are the debuffing/buffs. Bringing another DC contributes more damage than a dpser. Luckily some dps class have a viable buff spec
MoF CW, Temp SW for example so they can take a support slot too.
However the major reason people taking double DC groups is to bypass 2nd boss mechanics in ToNG. Just like when Msva came out and required triple cleric for AA cheese
and also the featured satirical comedic adventure "A Call for Heroes".
Low level players take way more risk when they run lower dungeons: they die because they are squishy, or don't do a lot of damage (looooong run), but they cope with it.
I understand that people want a successful run, but there is no challenge here.
Maybe a lack of patience ?
and also the featured satirical comedic adventure "A Call for Heroes".
The later end-game stuff pretty much requires this type of party. FBI with a GF 3 DPS and 1 DC does not go anywhere near as fast or smooth as either 4 Supprt 1 DPS or 3 Support 1 Control/DPS and 1 DPS. So a whole rework of the end-game stuff would have to happen, because they are just too challenging to do the old way.
They already nerfed Into the Fray, what more do you want them to nerf? I see a lot of people wanting a re-work done on bonding stones so that the companion isn't buffed then the owner is passed even more power. Well, what's the overall goal of requesting this nerf? To make dungeons take longer, to make people miserable? Close the gap between your DPS and theirs so that it isn't as embarrassing? or what? I don't understand. You should be happy for those people who make their toons deal 10s of millions of damage in a single hit, not act like it is some competition and demand a nerf.
I see a lot of people hating on GFs for dealing increased damage, wanting a nerf for that, which isn't very fair to the class.
#1. The possibility was always there, however, there were very few DPS GFs because most people that rolled them, wanted them as tanks. You are only seeing them so often now, because we have loadouts! Why punish the class for using loadouts?
#2. GFs even specced as tanks are doing an increased amount of damage for a very specific reason. That reason being, the class was nerfed. Before, if you stacked your defense through the roof, into the fray passed on even more buffs. It was far more beneficial to stack defense than to be able to do any damage at all. After the ITF nerf, GFs only need to reach the cap. Which is achieved incredibly quickly.
GFs then have a few choices, such as
A. Change out negation for more useful enchantment such as Elven Battle, and stack recovery for more buff uptime, and secondary stat focus is power.
B. Use trans negation to keep DR up, change set out for Demo set, basically become GWF with a shield who can also buff.
I mean, I'm sure there are many GFs out there who would absolutely love to go back to stacking defense and buffing like crazy, but that isn't an option anymore, due to the ITF nerf. Right? Do you expect GFS to get nerfed, do less buffs, and do less damage? Might as well nerf the run speed right after that, don't want us to have too much fun.
When the subject came to the buffs dev gave an answer : We " would like to adress the buffs too" but "is large task".
If you ask me the above means: devs dont want touch the buffs or they dont understand how bad is the buffing system.
SYstem designers also answered to the question what will gonna happen with the two dc meta. THE answer is:
We are aware of the two Cleric, two Tank, 1 DPS strategy that players are bringing into dungeons, and we've seen it in a fair amount of speed runs recently.
One of the big problems here is the way that buffs and debuffs work in our game. Both of the Cleric Paragon Paths have just enough unique buffs/debuffs that it's worth running both of them to maximize efficiency. While we would like to move away from this, it's a large task and we don't really want to nerf Devoted Clerics without having other options available.
I liked an idea a friend suggested to the reedit ( somehow his post removed and he can only see it ) they could remove some buff from dc and give it to other class( sw?).AN example forgmaster flame to get rework and get more damage boost to be a dps encounter and lose its buff ability and this 15% to go other class.
THE above will adress the issue that the best party have to be two dc if you make more viable other class want -can play the buffing role.
Also the bondings should stop transfer the power coming from power share or doesnt make sense the change devs made with the brutality-sudden rings marked as buffed stats and stopped proc on companion.
Problem with nerfing or restricting dungeons to one healer and one tank is that TONG requires a lot of healing/tanking and also a lot of dps. I appreciate the increased difficulty in TONG but at the same time, but I wonder if the devs actually tried beating this dungeon with 3 dps and 1 tank and 1 healer.
I dont mind if Cryptic nerfs us, but they better nerf tong too.
Back in the "old days' - prior to mod 6, GFs and DCs were out in the cold on end game content because you didn't need them - it was all DPS all the time. Thanks to things like the pre-nerf Endless Consumption, DPS classes could speed run dungeons faster w/o tanks. Which really sucked for players who chose the tank and healer classes - regardless of gear you'd get kicked just for the class you chose to play.
IMHO the current status quo is way more balanced, and much preferred.
Perhaps one solution is to hard cap how much damage a support class can do in parties (obviously this will not apply to solo play). So while the party could have ridiculous amounts of power sharing and other buffs, these would only be useful for the pure dps, and the rest would not be able to benefit as much. This would likely make it more desirable to have more than just one dps in the party.
IN Their best in slot and if they have 50k base they can buff a player who owns a companion with companion gear at 7k power the final result will be : 290k power from those three which would be around 100k if companion didnt transfer the buffed power.
Afterall tr deserved the fixes( i dont play tr ) on whirlwind of blades and shadow of demise ( what did double benefits ooo)
These are private queues. If you don't want to run with people that do this, why don't you make your own queue and run the dungeons your own way? Is the concern that a lot of DPS classes are getting left out? If so, then as a DPS class, sit in PE and ask LF4M 1Tank1Heal 2DPS easy, problem solved. Why is it necessary to nerf the way someone else is running their dungeons? It's not like if they get to the chest first that you wont have that opportunity when you get there.
1 dps only is a choice, not a must and not even a "meta" in my opinion.
For sure it's the best composition if all the party members know what to do, otherwise it's just a setup like others.
I use to run tng/FBI/msp with 2 DCs + (OP or GF) and 2 dps and it works very well. I was in a team in tng where I was the only DC and a templock to heal/buff: perfectly doable in a reasonable time.
Of course if you rely on the game chat only, then the problem it's not the meta, but the brainless collective attitude to mimic the top groups like monkeys...(and you must be patient enough to find 1 AC DC + 1 AC DO + GF + OP : the time you waste to find them in a chat/channel if often of the same magnitude of a half dungeon run with a different group setup, that's why i call it "brainless attitude"). Even worse when the party leader don't know what he really wants: "lfg 2 DCs for FBI", 15 minutes waiting and then you have 2 AC DCs in the group instead of 1 AC and 1 DO.
I want to be provocative: there was a time where THE "meta" was 4 CWs + 1 DC or even 5 CWs to complete the old CN. And one thing hasn't changed over the time: too many players want to be top damage dealers while so few know how to play a support class.
So you're in a game full of dpss who want to be Rambo-like , but there are not enough good support to do it, otherwise there is no reason to open a post like this one.
Instead of complaining about the "meta", I would sponsor viable alternatives. Here my two cents.
1 good high power and AP gain AC DC (ever tried HG+AA from 1 DC only?)
1 good old tank
1 good HB fury SW (so underrated class imo: good mix between buff and dps).
1 good CW (even MoF if you like)
1 good DPS, usually a GWF or a HR.
Here we go: 3 dps and 2 support, good for public q as well. You need more minutes to complete a dungeon, but it works.
I suspect that the real target of the post is the "more minutes" and not the meta.
PS: change what you want, but at the end another meta will emerge.
Oltreverso guild leader
Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
The real problem is that the support combination is not only the fastest but also the tankiest so it can do it faster and with less risk (with 2 DCs you can pretty much ignore mechanics at the second boss and just DPS down the thing in the middle). A combination that can kill stuff faster should be more squishy if we want to keep the game balanced. There should be a trade-off between damage and tankiness, i.e. if you go for more support classes that provide tankiness (tanking, healing, enemy damage debuffing, damage mitigation) in your team, you should lose DPS (assuming same player skill level and equipment).
I agree with @rapo973 that a party-composition meta will always be there but the devs should try to manage things so that the meta is not that much skewed towards certain classes leaving the others in the gutter. It was the same at the end of mod5 when DPS classes didn't need any support and could rush through stuff while support classes took way too long time to do anything.
Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
The 4/5 CW mandatory run was wrong, the bubbledin immortal team was wrong, the only one dps team is wrong. There is also something wrong if the GF tops the Tiamat paingiver by a big margin (this issue was posted in another thread here). These issues all needed fixing, this current one as well.