I was using that as an example. Since the twisted set is stronger than the elemental fire weps and easier to get than the RD weps i would classify it as a Tier 2 wep set like the SH, drowned, burning, earth, and howling weps. Each is stronger than the elemental fire weps, but not as strong as the Tier 3 weps like the RD 3, SKT relic wep and the Titansteel weps.
I soloed the RD ritual HEs with my WK using Elemental Fire weapons (epic) until she got her aboleth. Just takes a bit more time and as always with a TR, planning and situational awareness.
I'd love to see a video of a WK soloing the red dragon in the dragonflight. I think that would be cool to see!
Lilia Drakon - PVE Executioner TR She Looked Lvl 18
That's Noto, he's a guildmate of mine and, as others her pointed out, a mi sabo. Only two videos I've seen are mine and his. I haven't heard of any WKs being able to do it. I would love it if they could, because that means they are in a better place than I think, but I don't think it is possible right now, unfortunately. I love the WK players, because they are a dedicated bunch, but it's just awful hard for them to compete right now. Er, even harder than the TRs have it right now as a whole.
Lilia Drakon - PVE Executioner TR She Looked Lvl 18
If a maxed out TR can take a red in 10 min, how long would a GWF/Pally/CW/GF take on a red? Cause that would be a great measuring point on class balances in my opinion.
But, we'd only be looking at one aspect of damage, that is vs a single target. CWs, with lightning enchants, can dominate mob damage. So, it's really only part of the picture.
Edit: something to consider, though. Single target damage is the MI executioners strongest thing. If it takes them half again as long as a GWF, which also excels against mobs, then that should tell you something. Because, as a mi exe player, it is awful hard for us to keep up with the GWFs, CWs, and HRs with mobs.
Lilia Drakon - PVE Executioner TR She Looked Lvl 18
Sirjimbo that is my whole point. Class balancing for TR needs to be done. As for CW, i was in a sHEs in RD with 14k IL CW and one other and it was scarey just how powerful a CW could annihilate a tough mob like RD HEs. We rounded all 3 so fast we were waiting for the timer to expire each time. And i know i barely got any kills in that one. Neither did the other. That is why i included CWs into the Red Dragon timer. Cause they can be scary powerful.
Class balancing for TR is a long time coming. The high point for the class seems to have been early Beta, although I wasn't around from mod 5 until my return late mod 9. I understand there was a brief point where SoD was an AoE and the class shone again, but that was fleeting.
In mods 3 and 4, with top gear and a perfect rotation, my MI could keep up with other DPS classes.(the WK was never geared to that level) but I left before mod 5 and its changes. Ultimately those have been a mixed bag. Some buffs, but too finicky to manage, the stealth nerf you complain about with at wills, and the smoke bomb buff.
The class has suffered seemingly unending nerfs due to PVP concerns and also because it scales worse with power creep than AoE classes do. Simply put, we need a lot more work than the devs put into the DC rework and I am not hopeful what we get will be effective.
"We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
4
micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
The class has suffered seemingly unending nerfs due to PVP concerns and also because it scales worse with power creep than AoE classes do. Simply put, we need a lot more work than the devs put into the DC rework and I am not hopeful what we get will be effective.
Yeah, my 'favorite' was when at mod ~5 rework, gentlemencrush was on stream and after about half hour of talking proudly and showing the DC changes, did like 3 minutes "Ah and we reworked the TR too, now at-will eat up stealth and all the trees redone" and that was that.
My main goal, and i hope the programmers listen, is to reduce the At-will drainage of stealth, increase stealth base time to 8 seconds, increase wep damage by a little bit, power by a little bit, fix tenacious concealment, and my hope is to reduce the stealth consumption of encounters away from 100%.
> @athena#9205 said: > My main goal, and i hope the programmers listen, is to reduce the At-will drainage of stealth, increase stealth base time to 8 seconds, increase wep damage by a little bit, power by a little bit, fix tenacious concealment, and my hope is to reduce the stealth consumption of encounters away from 100%.
They cant change stealth this way.. it would bring back the perma cancer build on pvp.. TRs would be never targetable ... But they must bring some utility to our TAB on PVE endgame.. since we r able to get 90%~~100% crit chance with bonding stones r12, the crit chance and invisibility that we get from stealth doesnt help much on endgame pve, its only mean is proc Shadow of Demise and encounters/feats weak interactions.
IMO after mod12 piercing dmg changes, MI exe TRs r now able to outdps any class on single target fights (AoE still the same) but those changes nerfed our pvp burst dmg (Shocking Execution), so its too hard to make changes that make TRs balanced in both PvP and PvE...
So my sugestion for a rework is remove critical boost from stealth since it doesnt match the actual endgame meta and revamp most of encounters improvement from stealth to make it more useful and relevant to TRs gameplay, also adding a dmg buff like: "Each hit you deal from stealth gives you a stack of expose weakness, each stack gives you x % dmg stacks up to x times and remains for x seconds". Its just a sugestion... idk if its right..
About the power increasing u asked, TRs alrdy got so many stuffs to multiply power.. WoB is stacking without limit allowing TRs with DC sigil and artificer insignia to reach insane amounts of power above 1M, it should be fixed not allowing WoB to stack.
About Weapon dmg... yeah it need some atention, any weapon enchantment based on weapon dmg underperform on TRs compared to other classes, idk if theres something buged but... theres something wrong...
I guess that any rework will come for us so soon.. I think the class that realy needs some atention is the SW wich is underperforming in every aspect
Post edited by gbrlpf22 on
Mara Canà - Trickster Rogue 15k - Strawberry Yakuza
Id say leave crit from stealth, as there are feats and paragons associated with that. Increase stealth to 8 sec base. Leave power alone, Limit the number of power stacking on things like WoB, but i wouldn't nerf it all. I still have no idea how to stack WoB since the recovery i have (7000, around 40% AP gain) still doesn't proc daily recharge fast enough to stack WoB. But if there are concerns then make power have a cap, say 300k or so ( i can reach 60k power for a short time with WoB in mobs and that is plenty to clear the lesser mobs in chult without me getting killed, and i'm using lvl 9 enchants). That should be plenty to manage any mob/boss fight without getting to a mil power stacked. I'd like to see item/enchant/feat or paragon that increases wep damage in stacks over time. That would solve my concerns there.
0
plasticbatMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 12,453Arc User
But, we'd only be looking at one aspect of damage, that is vs a single target. CWs, with lightning enchants, can dominate mob damage. So, it's really only part of the picture.
Edit: something to consider, though. Single target damage is the MI executioners strongest thing. If it takes them half again as long as a GWF, which also excels against mobs, then that should tell you something. Because, as a mi exe player, it is awful hard for us to keep up with the GWFs, CWs, and HRs with mobs.
Sw can't even do that. Or I haven't seen/heard from any PvE SW who could successfully solo any DF dragon.
They did as they used to be able to do that easily. Now, probably not but I won't say that in certainty though.
*** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
0
beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
About the power increasing u asked, TRs alrdy got so many stuffs to multiply power.. WoB is stacking without limit allowing TRs with DC sigil and artificer insignia to reach insane amounts of power above 1M, it should be fixed not allowing WoB to stack.
Nice grouping.... I wouldn't call that exploiting or anything. That's how the developers designed the game mechanics. I know from a little reading that tanks can up their power using similar methods of gaining defense. A TR player would just have a longer route to get that power boost, and since its relying on artifacts (which as i understand it, do not have a cool-down reduction method) it has a short time frame; a burst of power. And that is a TR: hit hard and fade away.
WoB stacking is an issue and its being fixed, power numbers were ridiculuos, as in few millions while all other classes cant reach few hundreds of thousands. It was done by either DC sigil (if you needed it for shorter duration) or by Dragon hearts (if you needed it for longer duration) and Dragon hearts have low cooldown, 15 seconds if you miss targets and that allowed infinite power loops. Well not infinite but as long as monsters were alive.
Sad thing, there is no indication the devs are willing to do anything about TR yet, even tho we listed many bugs and suggestions for them already.
About SW's, they can solo things, probably everything a TR can solo they can as well, if not more but they are pretty much in the same boat as TR's. Problem is most SW's gave up on playing after the class was nerfed and play with alts. Luckily TR's are tougher b4st3rds and they dont give up so easily.
I have complained about the damage output compared to other classes and been told I was wrong but if it takes a TR, which is supposed to be the single target king, almost twice as long to kill the same single target (red dragon) as a similar BiS class, the GWF, we are not as bad HAMSTER as we think.
If you have to use perma AP and WoB stacking to keep up, that is not a solution IMO. I do like the idea of removing the stealth drain of at wills as a damage fix, but it sort of makes sense if you are hitting something the something should notice you quicker
TR - Sun: 16000 IL OP - Sunshine: 16000 IL
Casual Dailies
0
plasticbatMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 12,453Arc User
If you have to use perma AP and WoB stacking to keep up, that is not a solution IMO. I do like the idea of removing the stealth drain of at wills as a damage fix, but it sort of makes sense if you are hitting something the something should notice you quicker
You know you got hit but you don't know where it came from. Dagger from far is the killer. Dagger can have serious punch.
*** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
I've played many DnD computer games and other RPG games and they were all very similar: the rogues/thieves picked locks, pickpocketted, snuck around unseen, and could assassinate without anyone the wiser. When i first loaded up the NW i saw that game play movie with the rogue gal teleporting all over the undead battlefield and i'm like YEAH i want to be her. So when looking over the various classes and races (having no idea what i was getting into or what i was doing) i chose a woodelf rogue. My first loadout (before loadouts cameout) i was all into speed and first strike. (i was seriously disappointed i couldn't steal anything :-( .... ) And that helped me get through the first 60 levels of my toon. Then in EE i found that i couldn't first strike the mobs anymore. So i began looking at guides and found that the TR was underpowered and relitively overlooked as a class other than PVP, which i hate. But i persisted and now i can match other classes generally, not really HDPS yet, but after 5 months i can say i'm doing quite well (i can survive in Chult for most mobs, except that tyrannasaur got me bad....) And i come to hear from a friend in my alliance that he got his power stacked to 200K and another said they got it up to 300K and i'm thinking: HOW? With 300K power i should be able to take on that Tyrannasaur (not the rex). So i'm all for the TR being improved. Not nerfed. IMO it is way under powered in current state. If the WoB stacking is getting capped to 300K i'm ok with that, if its getting prevented then i ask for a proper way to power up to equal states with other classes.
If you have to use perma AP and WoB stacking to keep up, that is not a solution IMO. I do like the idea of removing the stealth drain of at wills as a damage fix, but it sort of makes sense if you are hitting something the something should notice you quicker
You know you got hit but you don't know where it came from. Dagger from far is the killer. Dagger can have serious punch.
Each of the classes have special "power", and that is great. the TR is remaining unseen even when attacking. A wizard's invisibility spell cancels on action, like attack. But a TR isn't a wizard and the "power" is naturally inclined into the class not a wizard spell or enchantment and so shouldn't cancel on attack. Plus a TR only gets 5 seconds of stealth and much less if attacking ATM. That isn't right. 8 sec of stealth and half the drain from at wills would be just right.
0
micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
If you have to use perma AP and WoB stacking to keep up, that is not a solution IMO. I do like the idea of removing the stealth drain of at wills as a damage fix, but it sort of makes sense if you are hitting something the something should notice you quicker
You know you got hit but you don't know where it came from. Dagger from far is the killer. Dagger can have serious punch.
Each of the classes have special "power", and that is great. the TR is remaining unseen even when attacking. A wizard's invisibility spell cancels on action, like attack. But a TR isn't a wizard and the "power" is naturally inclined into the class not a wizard spell or enchantment and so shouldn't cancel on attack. Plus a TR only gets 5 seconds of stealth and much less if attacking ATM. That isn't right. 8 sec of stealth and half the drain from at wills would be just right.
I'm sorry, but in practice what you asking for, or the trade offs you suggest are a gimp for no gain. Stealth as-is gives almost nothing (in PvE), so lets say you get 8 seconds and less drain. You wont, but lets say. You still need to stack crit, otherwise you can't rotate more than one encounter. Or DF in crit, DF takes ~2.5 seconds and will drain the stealth anyway. All this change will give you is a bit more out of last moments.
In exchange you ask to cap power, and as such to gimp BiS TRs in a good party. Your stats are still low, It's very common to get over 60k power by yourself, and over 150k with WoB (solo). With power sharing that goes higher. And for no apparent gain you ask to cap it. WoB stacking is a different matter altogether.
Comments
She Looked Lvl 18
Here is my Blog
Jimbo specifically said WK because they've all been MI so far.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
She Looked Lvl 18
Here is my Blog
I'm sure there are others, those are just the ones I know.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
She Looked Lvl 18
Here is my Blog
Edit: something to consider, though. Single target damage is the MI executioners strongest thing. If it takes them half again as long as a GWF, which also excels against mobs, then that should tell you something. Because, as a mi exe player, it is awful hard for us to keep up with the GWFs, CWs, and HRs with mobs.
She Looked Lvl 18
Here is my Blog
In mods 3 and 4, with top gear and a perfect rotation, my MI could keep up with other DPS classes.(the WK was never geared to that level) but I left before mod 5 and its changes. Ultimately those have been a mixed bag. Some buffs, but too finicky to manage, the stealth nerf you complain about with at wills, and the smoke bomb buff.
The class has suffered seemingly unending nerfs due to PVP concerns and also because it scales worse with power creep than AoE classes do. Simply put, we need a lot more work than the devs put into the DC rework and I am not hopeful what we get will be effective.
> My main goal, and i hope the programmers listen, is to reduce the At-will drainage of stealth, increase stealth base time to 8 seconds, increase wep damage by a little bit, power by a little bit, fix tenacious concealment, and my hope is to reduce the stealth consumption of encounters away from 100%.
They cant change stealth this way.. it would bring back the perma cancer build on pvp.. TRs would be never targetable ...
But they must bring some utility to our TAB on PVE endgame.. since we r able to get 90%~~100% crit chance with bonding stones r12, the crit chance and invisibility that we get from stealth doesnt help much on endgame pve, its only mean is proc Shadow of Demise and encounters/feats weak interactions.
IMO after mod12 piercing dmg changes, MI exe TRs r now able to outdps any class on single target fights (AoE still the same) but those changes nerfed our pvp burst dmg (Shocking Execution), so its too hard to make changes that make TRs balanced in both PvP and PvE...
So my sugestion for a rework is remove critical boost from stealth since it doesnt match the actual endgame meta and revamp most of encounters improvement from stealth to make it more useful and relevant to TRs gameplay, also adding a dmg buff like: "Each hit you deal from stealth gives you a stack of expose weakness, each stack gives you x % dmg stacks up to x times and remains for x seconds". Its just a sugestion... idk if its right..
About the power increasing u asked, TRs alrdy got so many stuffs to multiply power.. WoB is stacking without limit allowing TRs with DC sigil and artificer insignia to reach insane amounts of power above 1M, it should be fixed not allowing WoB to stack.
About Weapon dmg... yeah it need some atention, any weapon enchantment based on weapon dmg underperform on TRs compared to other classes, idk if theres something buged but... theres something wrong...
I guess that any rework will come for us so soon..
I think the class that realy needs some atention is the SW wich is underperforming in every aspect
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
Sad thing, there is no indication the devs are willing to do anything about TR yet, even tho we listed many bugs and suggestions for them already.
About SW's, they can solo things, probably everything a TR can solo they can as well, if not more but they are pretty much in the same boat as TR's. Problem is most SW's gave up on playing after the class was nerfed and play with alts. Luckily TR's are tougher b4st3rds and they dont give up so easily.
If you have to use perma AP and WoB stacking to keep up, that is not a solution IMO. I do like the idea of removing the stealth drain of at wills as a damage fix, but it sort of makes sense if you are hitting something the something should notice you quicker
OP - Sunshine: 16000 IL
Casual Dailies
Stealth as-is gives almost nothing (in PvE), so lets say you get 8 seconds and less drain. You wont, but lets say. You still need to stack crit, otherwise you can't rotate more than one encounter. Or DF in crit, DF takes ~2.5 seconds and will drain the stealth anyway.
All this change will give you is a bit more out of last moments.
In exchange you ask to cap power, and as such to gimp BiS TRs in a good party. Your stats are still low, It's very common to get over 60k power by yourself, and over 150k with WoB (solo). With power sharing that goes higher.
And for no apparent gain you ask to cap it. WoB stacking is a different matter altogether.
Please take a look at those:
First:
https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1229772/trickster-rogue-class-balance-suggestions
And:
https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1231317/tr-compiled-balance-suggestions
And eventually some shortened summery with the minimal essentials:
https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1233289/three-things-to-help-rebalance-trs