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Shadow of Demise Derailment Arguing
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This discussion was created from comments split from: (Updated 7/21) Tomb of Annihilation Preview Patch Notes: NW.85.20170711b.5.
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Issues with inflated numbers is not because of SoD.
MF under these conditions would hit for bazillions of dmg... SoD now is just fair compared to GWFs and GFs atm....
If you made SoD not benefit from debuffs, it would work differently than all other sources of piercing damage moving forward. Inconsistent mechanics are what lead to actual bugs.
There are plenty of ways to adjust SoD with the new intended debuff scaling such that it would not be overpowered. But making it behave differently than all other sources of piercing damage is a shortsighted approach. And screaming bug bug bug when it's not a bug only serves to confuse everyone.
Please don't advocate for introducing an inconsistent mechanic under the (incorrect) pretext of "fixing a bug".
Should hopefully be clear to everyone by now that you don't fully understand the mechanic you're reporting as a bug.
> TR's Shadow of Demise is the new Murderous Flames and needs to be fixed before it goes live. We do not want TRs one-shotting bosses.
>
> https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1232860/new-incoming-piercing-damage-changes-and-trickster-rogues
>
> MF under these conditions would hit for bazillions of dmg... SoD now is just fair compared to GWFs and GFs atm....
tell that to the guy who hit a 500 mil SOD on preview a few nights ago
And i can bring and more examples fire of the gods, jagged blades. Because those happen on critical hit? Its the same for me as the shadow demise. AND shadow demise is a lot harder to build very good damage since you have 6 seconds.
> No fix to the Steel Blitz bug. Does this mean it is not a bug and is WAI? Is the TR SoD double dip fixed?
>
> Wait a minute because we lost it here. I can call double dip and the aura of courage why not? Proc from other things that benefit from buff debuff with the same logic aura of courage shouldnt benefit from debuff-buff.
> And i can bring and more examples fire of the gods, jagged blades. Because those happen on critical hit? Its the same for me as the shadow demise. AND shadow demise is a lot harder to build very good damage since you have 6 seconds.
500 million hits in the new dungeon are a bit over the top dont u agree?
SoD is really nice, but unfortunately much of it is wasted if you're fighting mobs all the time. It's great for bosses and this is be the one situation where the TR should shine. Let's keep it that way.
I ran MSP for the first time last night and between the hordes of mobs and bosses that either get immunity or interrupt you constantly it is NOT a TR-friendly dungeon. If Tot9G is like that, we need all the help we can get.
If you remove the debuff scaling for SoD, it would make it one of the only powers in the game that doesn't scale with debuffs. Inconsistency is a recipe for actual bugs.
In order to address this properly, the mechanic should be changed to either not be based on damage dealt, or the time or % scaling of the damage dealt should be brought down to bring this power into line if it is truly "overperforming"
(FWIW, in my limited testing it's not as absurd as people claim, although probably a bit on the over-performing side. In order to get the high numbers people are shocked about, you need conditions that would allow any dps class to be hitting for huge floaters, albeit usually fewer smaller ones that add up to a really high "damage per second". The fact that SoD comes as one floater based on 6 seconds of damage makes it an easy target for hate)
It's especially funny to me that the previous complaint was about a 23million hit. Now we're up to 500million. People clearly base their idea of "overpowered" based on their own damage. If you've never seen a 100+ mill hit before the SoD debuff changes, I don't think you will after the changes either
To give you an idea of what double dipping means in this situation, it means that the procced damage can out-damage the power proccing it. This issue isn't even exclusive to SoD as far as I know. This double-dipping also happens on Wheel of Elements: Fire last I checked on preview. At 333.33% effectiveness (233.33% debuffed) Wheel actually starts out-damaging the power that procced it. Is this balanced? Not my call. Is this a bug? Not my call. Do I think the devs did this on accident, and would change it immediately if they saw what it could do? Probably.
EDIT - Oh and just as a side note, SoD might actually use Wheel as well. So SoD gets debuffs twice, but is being modified by an artifact that already is modified by debuffs twice. How many times is SoD dipping into the debuffs multiplier at this point exactly? I will let you do the math.
Signature [WIP] - tyvm John
SoD doesnt proc Wheel of elements or any other dmg proc, just the SoD as the Creeping Death does.
Copy of what I said on the other topic:
""SoD does not proc Wheel of Elements and Aura of Courage dmg as IBS and Griffons Wrath's does, so if want to compare it with SoD burst dmg u should add 30% dmg in account, it means if a GF do a well timed GW he can do 3x20M hits in less than 6 seconds, plus 30% its 78M dmg... , if a GWF do 30M hit its 39M in one click, about their at-wills they alrdy hit much harder than TRs atwills and encounters, So if i hit for 30M with SoD to do the same damage on the same time interval a GWF needs to hit for 23 M on IBS not counting aura of courage just the Wheel buff (just comparative numbers). Also we need more than a well timed button press.. we need to stack our stuff and hit the target for 6 sec without interruption to reach these big numbers...""
Also Effectiveness doesnt affect Wheel of elements proc, this log from preview server shows it:
Also, it has been awhile since I checked Wheel, so it may or may not be using debuffs anymore on preview.
Signature [WIP] - tyvm John
Active Bonus: On Encounter Use
If you fail to critically hit, do an additional hit for damage equal to 50% of your power.
ISnt this similar to :
Shadow of Demise: When this effect ends, its target takes Piercing Damage equal to 50% of the damage dealt to its target by the Rogue. Piercing Damage cannot be deflected and ignores armor.
what is the difference? owlbear benefits from debuffs don't matter to you but demise matters?
IN both cases the 50% number get benefit from debuff so what is the problem?
the debuffed hit is more than my power when it says 50% of your power is the hit . should i say that is a bug or is wrong? devs like it this way so let it be.
Owlbear deals damage equal to 50% of your Power rating (the stat that clerics buff)
Not similar at all.
If you deal 1000 damage with some attack that activates SoD, SoD will deal something like 500 damage (assuming it is actually 50% like it states).
If you have 1000 power rating and you fail to crit, you will deal 500 damage on encounter use.
Now lets apply a 100% debuff (200% total effectiveness) and see what happens
You deal 2000 (1000) damage with the same attack as before, and then deal 2000 (1000) damage with SoD.
You deal 1000 (500) damage with the same amount of power on a non-crit with the owlbear.
So how did that just work? Why did SoD proc for equal damage instead of 50%? It did proc for 50%, which was 1000 damage. However, it was then double AGAIN by the debuffs on the target. This is an exponential increase from debuffs, and will get more out of hand the higher the debuffs go.
Signature [WIP] - tyvm John
sure only 13% of a cw damage too bad i didnt have luck on assailing force to surpass it.
Shadow of Demise: When this effect ends, its target takes Piercing Damage equal to 50% of the damage dealt to its target by the Rogue. Piercing Damage cannot be deflected and ignores armor.
SInce demise is piercing it will be get benefit from the debuff no matter what i say what you say or someone else say.