Unlock endgame dungeons for everyone !

pan17 · June 2017

...regardless of not having completed part of the campaign or even touched it yet..because...
GRINDING THE SAME STUFF ALL OVER AGAIN IS SUPERRR-BORING....

ravenskya · June 2017

Hmmm, I have to disagree with you a tiny bit.

1) put the dungeons at the end of the campaign so that fighting the boss makes sense in the story arc
2) once unlocked on a character - unlock it across the account

rjc9000 · June 2017

Tbh, I never understood why campaigns weren't tied to account.

Once you've beaten Sharanderp on your DPS character, why is it special to redo it on a support character?
Same boons, just more grind, which puts off players from doing alts.

mebengalsfan · June 2017

pan17 said:
...regardless of not having completed part of the campaign or even touched it yet..because...
GRINDING THE SAME STUFF ALL OVER AGAIN IS SUPERRR-BORING....

I would rather them have it setup if you completed it on your account it unlocks for all your characters who meet the IL requirement.

weedevildave · June 2017

mebengalsfan#9264 said:

pan17 said:
...regardless of not having completed part of the campaign or even touched it yet..because...
GRINDING THE SAME STUFF ALL OVER AGAIN IS SUPERRR-BORING....
I would rather them have it setup if you completed it on your account it unlocks for all your characters who meet the IL requirement.

100% agree with this.
Demogorgon/Master Demogorgon is unlocked across the account. Why not the others?

greywynd · June 2017

rjc9000 said:
Tbh, I never understood why campaigns weren't tied to account.

Once you've beaten Sharanderp on your DPS character, why is it special to redo it on a support character?
Same boons, just more grind, which puts off players from doing alts.

Personal achievement of the character.

disposablehero · June 2017

greywynd said:

rjc9000 said:
Tbh, I never understood why campaigns weren't tied to account.

Once you've beaten Sharanderp on your DPS character, why is it special to redo it on a support character?
Same boons, just more grind, which puts off players from doing alts.
Personal achievement of the character.

I would have preferred "because reasons", personal achievement means absolutely nothing to anyone, especially after their 3rd time running through Sharandar for boons.

greywynd · June 2017

disposablehero#5903 said:

I would have preferred "because reasons", personal achievement means absolutely nothing to anyone, especially after their 3rd time running through Sharandar for boons.

Stop thinking of it as a video game and put yourself into the characters. Why should GWF Bob's successes affect TR Suzie's career?

ecrana · June 2017

greywynd said:
Stop thinking of it as a video game and put yourself into the characters. Why should GWF Bob's successes affect TR Suzie's career?

Just, no.

It's this game's content that is the issue with this thinking. If I was playing Dragon Age, or KoToR or any game that has real character development and multiple branching paths than I can see why I would want to start from scratch and play through again. But those games dont force me to do Quest A 1000 times to unlock a character boon/power/feat/etc.

The content in this game is just a hodge podge of grind this for that. It's not just a matter of play through quest on another character to unlock something. This game is more like, play through this same quest 150 times to get materials, use materials to unlock progress in a campaign, then run the content even more to make keys for a dungeon that you have to run 1500 times to maybe get something that might be of interest just in time for the next mod to come along that lets you start the process again and loop this over and over. Who wants to do that on multiple characters?

ghoulz66 · June 2017

Only The Underdark campaign got it right it seems. Really a bunch of BS to unlock every endgame dungeon per char. I don't want to run the damn campaigns on everyone. One reason why I never unlocked FBI.

Back in mod 2 and prior you didn't need to do a handstand on a tight rope blindfolded with amputated arms just to unlock endgame.

greywynd · June 2017

ecrana#2080 said:

Just, no.

It's this game's content that is the issue with this thinking. If I was playing Dragon Age, or KoToR or any game that has real character development and multiple branching paths than I can see why I would want to start from scratch and play through again. But those games dont force me to do Quest A 1000 times to unlock a character boon/power/feat/etc.

The content in this game is just a hodge podge of grind this for that. It's not just a matter of play through quest on another character to unlock something. This game is more like, play through this same quest 150 times to get materials, use materials to unlock progress in a campaign, then run the content even more to make keys for a dungeon that you have to run 1500 times to maybe get something that might be of interest just in time for the next mod to come along that lets you start the process again and loop this over and over. Who wants to do that on multiple characters?

If you don't want to play the game, why make another character?

disposablehero · June 2017

greywynd said:

disposablehero#5903 said:

I would have preferred "because reasons", personal achievement means absolutely nothing to anyone, especially after their 3rd time running through Sharandar for boons.
Stop thinking of it as a video game and put yourself into the characters. Why should GWF Bob's successes affect TR Suzie's career?

But I don't want to use my imagination! Quests are boring the third and fourth time around and no matter how you look at it we're grinding away whether it stays like this or we get visited by the quality of life fairy. I'm doing these things either way, I just moan loudly from time to time.

ravenskya · June 2017

As a DM I can play that game- Bob the GWF goes back and sees Suzie, he draws her a map to this dungeon he just cleared. He tells her the ins and outs of the dungeon and tells her, you'll want to get some better gear before you go in there cuz those spiders is gangsta

There dungeon unlocked across characters, item level still required

greywynd · June 2017

Except across the storyline the dungeon gets run once. Ever. Unless like CN where the storyline changed the dungeon. Which would have been run twice. Once with the dracolich and once with Orcus.

beckylunatic · June 2017

greywynd said:
Except across the storyline the dungeon gets run once. Ever. Unless like CN where the storyline changed the dungeon. Which would have been run twice. Once with the dracolich and once with Orcus.

Soooooo... you're using the story-based idea that your character would only run a dungeon once in a tabletop setting to defend gating of dungeons that the majority of NW players are actually going to run hundreds or thousands of times because that's how MMOs work?

There are things that can be adapted from tabletop and actually work in NW, and things that can't, or that are so obnoxious they shouldn't be.

There was nothing objectionable about letting players unlock Demogorgon on any character after progressing their campaign far enough on one. It was a good model and the devs should have kept using it.

ecrana · June 2017

greywynd said:
If you don't want to play the game, why make another character?

Maybe when you want to respec a support build to a dps build you should be forced to run the content all over again? It is basically a completely different character now.

greywynd · June 2017

ecrana#2080 said:

Maybe when you want to respec a support build to a dps build you should be forced to run the content all over again? It is basically a completely different character now.

Loadouts...

greywynd · June 2017

beckylunatic said:

There was nothing objectionable about letting players unlock Demogorgon on any character after progressing their campaign far enough on one. It was a good model and the devs should have kept using it.

But they didn't.

beckylunatic · June 2017

greywynd said:
But they didn't.

We're allowed to criticize them for not doing so.

You don't have to look for a D&D-based justification for why the game has been developed in directions that are not player-friendly. You can say, "this actually kinda sucks and I'd like it changed".

micky1p00 · June 2017

greywynd said:

beckylunatic said:

There was nothing objectionable about letting players unlock Demogorgon on any character after progressing their campaign far enough on one. It was a good model and the devs should have kept using it.
But they didn't.

So what the purpose of this post?

We should stop suggesting or giving opinion because things were done like they were done. Accept it as immutable reality?
It may come as surprise to you but without any indication that things can be improved, they will not be improved.

Maybe we should be in feudalism, why change?
Or who need modern medicine, we can have a shaman or two.
It was like that, it was decided like that.. who are the infidels that even dare to suggest change...

mebengalsfan · June 2017

ravenskya said:
As a DM I can play that game- Bob the GWF goes back and sees Suzie, he draws her a map to this dungeon he just cleared. He tells her the ins and outs of the dungeon and tells her, you'll want to get some better gear before you go in there cuz those spiders is gangsta

There dungeon unlocked across characters, item level still required

Agree 100% and with the new IL for instance a pre-bought 70 can't get in stuff because the IL is to low, not even T1. By working on that character and improving the IL, that character can now get into the dungeon instead of spending hours grinding out content to play one dungeon.

For instance, I have completed the CoA campaign on my DC. My CW and GF are both high enough IL to play it but because I have not gotten that far with them they will sit idle until I can open it up for them.

I'm all for opening up more content if a player has complete it.

disposablehero · June 2017

greywynd said:
Except across the storyline the dungeon gets run once. Ever. Unless like CN where the storyline changed the dungeon. Which would have been run twice. Once with the dracolich and once with Orcus.

In the storyline I'm a superhero, but ingame I'm an air guitar playing nerd in an orange cape with a purple hat. I also drink a lot. You can't use the storyline which disregards gameplay mechanics to justify gameplay mechanics.

Well, I guess you can if you really want to, but you'll be wrong.

greywynd · June 2017

Okay, fine. MMO is grind. You don't want to do the grind, don't start playing.

dupeks · June 2017

It feels like the clash here is between people who would prefer that the game encourage multiple alt characters by making it easier to share accomplishments / unlocks / gearing between characters on an account, and those who would prefer the game encourage players to focus only on developing a single character.

I think that there is a case to be made for both sides.

I think that making the game alt-friendly helps encourage folks to experience all of the varied combat mechanics that each of the roles has to offer. I think it also encourages better cooperative party-making, since it lets players more easily bring up support / heal / tank alts they could swap to in order to form a party with friends. I also think that experiencing the game first-hand through different roles makes you a much more effective and well-rounded player, even on your main class.

I think that making the game single-character-focus makes people feel like their character progression is more valuable. Since it's not easy to gear up a character and unlock all of the things, having done so sets your seasoned character apart from others that are not played as much.

I fall squarely in the alt-friendly camp, but I can see how someone who has limited interest in bringing up alts would feel slighted by game design decisions that "devalue" the effort they put into their main character.

Ultimately, the developers have to find a balance between these two competing objectives. The player base includes both types of players, and it's not easy finding the right middle ground. However, I think that step 1 would be to more clearly articulate what objectives they do have for the game with respect to alt-friendliness. That would better help players provide feedback that would support their stated objective (instead of just providing an opinion based on personal preferences).

disposablehero · June 2017

greywynd said:
Okay, fine. MMO is grind. You don't want to do the grind, don't start playing.

That's meta, gtfo my game table.

armadeonx · June 2017

There's no clash - it's one guy thinking he can speak for everyone - disagreeing with everyone.

silverkelt · June 2017

Ok, as someone who has played multiple alts for ages, Im keenly aware of the struggles of them. Underdark was perfect, maze engine wasnt bad.. as people complain about sharander.. it was only 5-6 mins a day for the most part for me, SKT, RD are annoying as hell, as you have to do it on ever toon and its just time consuming and soooooo boring.

Here is the honest truth about this discussion, most of us are here to play a mmo combat, we agree on variations of acceptable grind (as long as its not too boring) , but when you are forced to redo everything all the time, it gets really really vexing and boring.

The minority are here for role playing aspects and character development, I believe its a extreme minority.. 2% max of all players, that means 98% of us would like things more streamlined and alt friendly.

In my ideal world.. this would happen.

You unlock or do a campaign once, you can get a token (1 per each different class) to just unlock the campaign. frankly this would INCREASE sales to thier campaign boosters, AS IT WOULD BE so much more valuable then it is now.. why pay for a campaign booster atm.. when you playing multiple alts.. its all a boring HAMSTER grind anyways.. not going to give them money thats for sure to skip it. Im not buying 5-6 boosters.. simply not happening.

This is from someone who has grinded out like 80-90% of all the boons on 8 different toons.. campaigns are the most boring part of the game for me.. and SKT, going to be honest, skipped almost all of it, except to open fbi and msva on a few toons to experience them.. but I wasnt going to run aorund in circles for vblood .. I wasnt going to do hes.. so most of the campaign was utter nonsense to me.

This campaign format , might not be the worst out there.. but its not the best either, ive seen mmos handle it better.
Some of the best mmos ive played, you didnt really need most of the permanent modifiers, you simply picked ten tasks, did them and picked the ten you wanted.. most were capped, so regardless you were , if you were maxed on the amount you earned, them adding new tasks didnt matter to you, you simply ignored them.

To me this game shouldnt try to emulate WoW.. be itself, its starting to deescalate from the travesty of SKT , as they clearly saw feedback and metrics and decided that was the wrong route to go.. Im glad to see this, but I still think they have some work to do.

Sorry for those who like to delve deep into character developments, not really a slight to you, frankly easing up on some of this, doesnt really hinder you at all.. if they took my token ideal, you personally could skip it and treat things as they are now.

disposablehero · June 2017

Either a token or an option that can be toggled in the main menu would solve the issue for both sides, so people who like to quest and pretend they're an elf irl can do so, and the rest of us can spend our time running content we actually like.

I'm sure there's a fun hating reason why this is a bad idea and why we should all feel bad for not immediately shooting it down, but I haven't found it yet.

ambisinisterr · June 2017

Great feedback here. Thanks for keeping it acceptably civil...

A more alt-friendly game is something I have only heard one person argue against since launch. It's shocking but permissible. Please continue to keep it civil and don't make me have to remove posts as everybody is allowed to have their own opinion.

ambisinisterr · June 2017

silverkelt said:
The minority are here for role playing aspects and character development, I believe its a extreme minority.. 2% max of all players, that means 98% of us would like things more streamlined and alt friendly.

This is not something that is "roleplaying" or at least not a main-stream roleplayer argument.

Your 2% figure is likely way lower than the real number just because you are only considering the extreme end of the roleplaying spectrum. I am no longer playing enough to correctly estimate the types of players in the game but when I played on a more regular basis at least 50% of the players would have fallen in the roleplaying spectrum even if they didn't know it.

Maybe only 2% sit in the Moonstone Mask and act as their characters would but that's an extreme, not a rule and it is something that Neverwinter really does not lend itself towards. Playing out characters in NWN was a blast but it is something I never got into in NW. Even so about half the people I played with in and out of guilds I was in had some sort of character development.

I would venture to say most roleplayers don't want to the grind over and over and over again. If anything I think all but the most extreme roleplayers would be content with doing the grind once and doing each of the quests once on a new character. Heck, most would likely not object to doing it once on a character and then moving forward.

Remember, roleplayers are the most likely to have a bunch of alts. They are the group who would stick to having a lightning mage and not simply buy a reroll token if they wanted to create an ice wizard. They feel the grind worse than most "MMOers."

They want to play as their characters, that doesn't mean they want to grind through thousands of hours in daily quests for every one of their characters.

mebengalsfan · June 2017

ambisinisterr said:

silverkelt said:
The minority are here for role playing aspects and character development, I believe its a extreme minority.. 2% max of all players, that means 98% of us would like things more streamlined and alt friendly.
This is not something that is "roleplaying" or at least not a main-stream roleplayer argument.

Your 2% figure is likely way lower than the real number just because you are only considering the extreme end of the roleplaying spectrum. I am no longer playing enough to correctly estimate the types of players in the game but when I played on a more regular basis at least 50% of the players would have fallen in the roleplaying spectrum even if they didn't know it.

Maybe only 2% sit in the Moonstone Mask and act as their characters would but that's an extreme, not a rule and it is something that Neverwinter really does not lend itself towards. Playing out characters in NWN was a blast but it is something I never got into in NW. Even so about half the people I played with in and out of guilds I was in had some sort of character development.

I would venture to say most roleplayers don't want to the grind over and over and over again. If anything I think all but the most extreme roleplayers would be content with doing the grind once and doing each of the quests once on a new character. Heck, most would likely not object to doing it once on a character and then moving forward.

Remember, roleplayers are the most likely to have a bunch of alts. They are the group who would stick to having a lightning mage and not simply buy a reroll token if they wanted to create an ice wizard. They feel the grind worse than most "MMOers."

They want to play as their characters, that doesn't mean they want to grind through thousands of hours in daily quests for every one of their characters.

With loadouts, at least that roleplayer can play both lighting and ice mage,

.

As for replaying content...

I have played through all campaigns (other than IWD) 3x and right now I have two in CoA and STK/SoMI. My 3rd character is simply used to dungeon and collect AD at this point. Playing 2 through those campaign is draining and 3 would be a nightmare.

I would like a better method for alts for completing campaigns.

For instance, my DC has one thing left in CoA and will complete it shortly. My CW is working through the same campaign. Once I complete the campaign on my DC, it should offer some type of discount to CW and GF so I can complete it faster without needing to grind it out for weeks on end.

For instance, make the campaign currency cost 50% less for other characters IF we completed it at 100% on another character.

Or allow us to use AD to complete the campaign/boons once all boons are completed on another character.

Something to make campaign completion easier for those of us that have alts.

Unlock endgame dungeons for everyone !

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