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Official Feedback Thread: M12 Armor Pen Changes and PvP
rgutscheradev
Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 188Cryptic Developer › Cryptic Developer
We’re making some changes to Armor Pen with the Chult release (see https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1231982/official-feedback-thread-m12-armor-pen-and-damage-vulnerability-debuff-changes). I wanted to talk about the PvP implications separately.
In PvP, there are two significant changes riding along with the Armor Pen changes, and also some implications for where PvP is headed that I’d love feedback on.
What’s happening right now:
1) A fix to a bug where you could penetrate more Armor than another player had, and thus do bonus damage to them (more than 100%). This bug only happened in PvP.
2) The PvP-only stat of Armor Pen Resist has been removed.
I know #2 might seem a bit of a shock at first, so let me explain. There are three main reasons for getting rid of it:
* With the bug fixed, AP is much less powerful. So it makes sense to reduce AP Resist to counteract that. What should AP Resist be lowered to? The simplest value, and thus the one to try first, is zero.
* Long run, we’d like to get rid of the Tenacity system. Getting rid of AP Resist is a first step, and now is a good time.
* It’s kind of a stupid stat. The Defense stat (armor) is damage resist. Armor penetration is damage resist resist. So AP Resist is really damage resist resist resist. It’s just not right.
What will the net effect of these changes be? Well, AP will be worse against weakly armored targets (no overpenetration ). It might be better against heavily armored targets. But if lightly armored characters now survive better in PvP, and heavily armored ones are a bit less tough, that’s probably a good thing for PvP overall.
What about Tenacity? Lots of players have been complaining about it, and (I feel) with good reason. It definitely creates barriers to entry in PvP. As people stack more and more of it, it’s hard to maintain the right combat pacing (in terms of how long it takes to defeat someone). We’d like to replace the Tenacity system with a global buff that players get in PvP, but not based on gear -- everyone in PvP would just flat-out get (say) 40% Damage Resistance, 40% Critical Strike Resistance, and 40% Control Resistance. Those numbers, though, are just based on what Tenacity gives right now to an average well-geared player in PvP. Should they be higher? Lower? Some higher and some lower? I’d love some feedback from the PvP community on this topic.
UPDATE: Due to popular outcry, the new post-Tenacity system will include a 60% reduction in the effectiveness of ArPen across the board.
Of course, if we remove Tenacity, the gear that had it will get stats to make up for it. The goal would be that it’s gear that is of an appropriate power level for its item level.
How You Can Help
Don’t forget that with the new PvP Private Queues, it’s much easier to test PvP now! Here are some things to look for:
* There should no longer be “bonus damage” (damage past 100%) coming from Armor Pen.
* How is Armor Pen looking in PvP? The fixes won’t be enough to put tanks and dps classes in perfect PvP balance, but do they at least move things in the right direction rather than the wrong direction?
* How do people feel about removing Tenacity entirely? What do people feel about the proposed numbers for the global PvP buff?
I know that these changes just scratch the surface of what’s needed in PvP. I’m happy to hear further suggestions (I’ve been looking at some of the other PvP suggestion threads), but definitely in this thread give me feedback on the things mentioned above -- they’re the things that we can bugfix and tweak for the upcoming Chult release!
In PvP, there are two significant changes riding along with the Armor Pen changes, and also some implications for where PvP is headed that I’d love feedback on.
What’s happening right now:
1) A fix to a bug where you could penetrate more Armor than another player had, and thus do bonus damage to them (more than 100%). This bug only happened in PvP.
2) The PvP-only stat of Armor Pen Resist has been removed.
I know #2 might seem a bit of a shock at first, so let me explain. There are three main reasons for getting rid of it:
* With the bug fixed, AP is much less powerful. So it makes sense to reduce AP Resist to counteract that. What should AP Resist be lowered to? The simplest value, and thus the one to try first, is zero.
* Long run, we’d like to get rid of the Tenacity system. Getting rid of AP Resist is a first step, and now is a good time.
* It’s kind of a stupid stat. The Defense stat (armor) is damage resist. Armor penetration is damage resist resist. So AP Resist is really damage resist resist resist. It’s just not right.
What will the net effect of these changes be? Well, AP will be worse against weakly armored targets (no overpenetration ). It might be better against heavily armored targets. But if lightly armored characters now survive better in PvP, and heavily armored ones are a bit less tough, that’s probably a good thing for PvP overall.
What about Tenacity? Lots of players have been complaining about it, and (I feel) with good reason. It definitely creates barriers to entry in PvP. As people stack more and more of it, it’s hard to maintain the right combat pacing (in terms of how long it takes to defeat someone). We’d like to replace the Tenacity system with a global buff that players get in PvP, but not based on gear -- everyone in PvP would just flat-out get (say) 40% Damage Resistance, 40% Critical Strike Resistance, and 40% Control Resistance. Those numbers, though, are just based on what Tenacity gives right now to an average well-geared player in PvP. Should they be higher? Lower? Some higher and some lower? I’d love some feedback from the PvP community on this topic.
UPDATE: Due to popular outcry, the new post-Tenacity system will include a 60% reduction in the effectiveness of ArPen across the board.
Of course, if we remove Tenacity, the gear that had it will get stats to make up for it. The goal would be that it’s gear that is of an appropriate power level for its item level.
How You Can Help
Don’t forget that with the new PvP Private Queues, it’s much easier to test PvP now! Here are some things to look for:
* There should no longer be “bonus damage” (damage past 100%) coming from Armor Pen.
* How is Armor Pen looking in PvP? The fixes won’t be enough to put tanks and dps classes in perfect PvP balance, but do they at least move things in the right direction rather than the wrong direction?
* How do people feel about removing Tenacity entirely? What do people feel about the proposed numbers for the global PvP buff?
I know that these changes just scratch the surface of what’s needed in PvP. I’m happy to hear further suggestions (I’ve been looking at some of the other PvP suggestion threads), but definitely in this thread give me feedback on the things mentioned above -- they’re the things that we can bugfix and tweak for the upcoming Chult release!
Post edited by rgutscheradev on
15
Comments
- First off, I didn't know about the ArP overpenetration bug, so thanks for that fix.
- If the DR cap is 80%, then players would only now need a flat 8000 Armor Penetration to overcome any DR. This cap is easy to reach for veteran players (guild boons / armored axe beak)
- This means that players that used to overstack ArP can now just stack power, which doesn't really level out the playing field
- If ArP is easy to reach for veteran players, why would classes then bother stacking defense?
- Players who cannot reach 8000 ArP (usually new players) will still be at a disadvantage
and on Tenacity removal vs Global PvP buff:
- It will make it easier for new players to have more survivability straight off the bat
- 40% seems like a good place to start ~ equivalent to 2000 tenacity (3 armor pieces (not chest) +500 set bonus)
- But what would the purpose be for PvP gear now? Will it be phased out?
- If Tenacity is being replaced with stats, would it then not then make it easier to overstack stats?
I am still not sure how it will address a lot of the issues regarding balance e.g. overstacking stats, boons which overperform, high stamina pools/regen which make classes nearly immune to damage/CC. Diminishing returns is a possibility, but if you diminish the ability to stack a certain stat, it has to be reflected in the opposing stat (e.g. Damage vs Survivability stats). I don't really know where to start with PvP in order make changes balanced at each step, but at least it is a start, so thank you @rgutscheradev
Is this proven? If so, has the formula been worked out (or released)?
Ever stopped to think that this change makes Hunter Rangers even more overpowered than they already are?
So now not only they will receive less damage (They count as light armored) but Piercing Blades (The piercing damage) goes through damage resistance, deflect, immunity, everything.
Therefore they will shred every other class like paper while surviving even longer than right now. This is not balance.
Please take a look at it.
This would only affect those who:
1) Overstacked armor penetration to do more damage than intended (not sure exactly how this worked)
2) Those who stack defense - typically tanks
HRs who chose the Piercing Blades feat (50% bonus damage as Piercing Damage) did not need to put any stat on Armor Penetration if they used this mechanic, as piercing damage ignores deflect, armor etc as you mentioned. This change to ArP won't make that type of attack any stronger.
However, any class who invests in Armor Penetration now may do more regular damage, as armor penetration won't be resisted by Tenacity. So HRs, presumably, may get a bump in overall damage if they invest in ArP.
Also, it won't make HRs more survivable, it will make all less survivable. ArP will be able to bypass defense directly now, instead of going through another layer of mitigation.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
My concern with removal of tenacity is: What will set apart the PvP and PvE armor? If they will be equal, so far it has been so that PvE armors would give more combined stats than PvP armors, including tenacity. Would that mean PvP players would have to grind PvE to acquire best armor for PvP? I think if you remove tenacity you have to make sure armor that is comperable to the best PvE armor is acquirable trough PvP as well.
1) Love the ARP change - especially removal of arp resist.
2) PLEASE replace tenacity. This was a good idea, but very poorly implemented. Giving players a standard buff in PVP is an AWESOME idea!!!! This removes the "divide" between PVE and PVP players allowing for ANY gear to be used! This is awesome!!!! Here is my feedback (I have already tested this ad nasium)
- Base "tenacity damage resist" on the buff should be pegged to 60%.
- Crit resistance should be pegged to 30%!
- Control Resist (if no diminishing returns come) should be kept at 40%.
Now, to elaborate. Right now Critical Strike resistance at 45% actually makes crits deal LESS damage than non crits. Why?
Well, everyone has a multiplier of 1.75 base for a crit (meaning in PVE crits do 75% more damage).
In PVP Crit Resistance does this:
1.75 * (1-45%) = NEW DAMAGE. What is this new damage? 96.25% of your NON CRIT value....... So to put this in laymans terms: Crits deal ~4% LESS DAMAGE than non crits.
Now, you can modify this in several ways (such as make crit resist only impact the severity, not the actual damage) but the easiest (IMO) is to merely make crit resist = 30%. What THIS does is 1.75 * (1-30%) = 1.22. Now crits would deal 22% more damage than non crits which seems fair.
If you merely did this, crits would crit for TOO much. This is where I think beefing UP the "damage resist" portion to 60% seems fair.
As for PVP Private Ques - This is awesome. This frankly wont fix PVP, but it WILL go a long ways towards QOL issues.
As for this" I know that these changes just scratch the surface of what’s needed in PvP. I’m happy to hear further suggestions":
- The best thing I can suggest is to create a PVP Level system. Players earn EXP and lose EXP on wins/losses. Players get a "level" in PVP they work towards increasing. THIS becomes both your leaderboard as well as your matchmaking tool.
In a game like NW. Gear is too large a factor, so ELO is a VERY POOR way of matching players. I would create a PVP level system ranging from say 1-60.
Rank Icon Name
0-9 ?
10-19 Dominator
20-29 Tyrant
30-39 Supreme Tyrant
40-49 Ultimate Tyrant
50-59 Overlord
60 Invincible Overlord
Then with THIS, you have matchmaking pair 1 tier higher and lower. So, to give an example:
PVP Level 37 player ques up. He is a "Supreme Tyrant". Matchmaking will LOOK for players that are 20-49 (Tyrant+Supreme Tyrant+Ultimate Tyrant).
Things like this. I would also make it, so you can gain and lose levels but make the "rank" you earn a "floor".
So that same lvl 37 Supreme Tyrant loses a BUNCH of games, his "floor" is PVP level 30. He can never lose his Supreme Tyrant rank, but he can go up or down the full spectrum of levels in that rank: 30-39. If he wins enough and is promoted to Ultimate Tyrant (40), now he has "locked in" level 40 and cannot go below that. But if he wins and gets to lvl 49 (still U.T.) but then loses a bunch he could drop all the way back down to 40....
I think this is broad enough to encompass large enough player base. New players would never match against higher players. As I also said, this becomes your leaderboards - tracking total EXP. At 60 (Invincible Overlord) players still earn EXP it just doesnt increase their level.
Each module you can "reset" the leaderboards and players have at it again... Or maybe you do a "reset" by cutting everyones EXP in half (lvl 60s start as 30s, lvl 30s start as 15s) MANY ways to do this...
I would HIGHLY suggest you look into those characters before you rip off tenacity completely in another update. Remember this game is played completely differently on consoles then on PC. On xbox gwfs, sws and pallies totally get looked over in pvp because of the fact when we get courage broken we are a guaranteed kill to any competent team. Hence we RARELY get picked up for a serious premade matches.
Keep going doing this road though I am hopeful that it may become more fair soon.
A humble console player.
"Of course, if we remove Tenacity, the gear that had it will get stats to make up for it. The goal would be that it’s gear that is of an appropriate power level for its item level."
Secondly, with the new mod comes the introduction of IL500 gear. Players were going to have to get new gear anyway. Like the man said, now is as good a time as any.
you had hard times already with those TRs/Hrs insta killing you and now this.
its so sad :/
if GWF has problems negation- tenacity full defence-deflect wrong? and unstopable as i know it give dr too. ISNT that enough to counter penetration? ADAPT as many say here:)
I like how when the devs finally decided to work on fixing PvP people are still concerned more about their class not being on the bottom of the totem pole. This is normal in other games just Neverwinter's balance changes happen at such a glacial pace people don't realize it.
* Give newcomers from level 60 to 69 daily sigils for the victory in Domination and they will be prepared with PvP gear at level 70 (Read as "Improve PvP campaign").
* Revert back ArPen resist at PvP. GWF's SW's HR's TR's have nothing to defend themselves.
* Fix Trans Feytouched bug with -30% damage debuff and 20/20 seconds wording. Add a cool down to Valhalla's set (another -15% of incoming damage).
* Have you checked top PvP players equipment? Everybody 200+ HP, T. Negotiation ench, Valhalla's set and T. Feytouched, Wheel of elements (flame is still buggy).
* Want to equalize something, equalize players HP.
* Without class changes you won't reach desirable balance.
* A tiny addition: Remove piercing damage from crits.
FEW words: resist ignore can ignore any armor even if is buff dr?
> what kind of surviveability you talk about ? the 1st thing they fix is the armor penetration penetrated more armor than target armor and in top of that it dealt and bonus damage. what is the difference with the new change vs that bug we have now ?
>
>
> if GWF has problems negation- tenacity full defence-deflect wrong? and unstopable as i know it give dr too. ISNT that enough to counter penetration? ADAPT as many say here:)
i think u dont see the whole picture
atm on live most classes doesnt stack arp cause they cant get as much to ignore all DRs
and on ptr with single boon you ignore enitre GWF DR
after couple of matches on preview i can tell u that GWF has nearly no chance vs most classes
and deflect?idk if you re aware you cant deflect 1 shot SE or insta melting piercing blades
the other thing is GWF cannot stack enough deflect to make it effective
piercing dmg.