demonmongerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,350Arc User
edited May 2017
> @maatmons said: > I'm not completely sure of the laws here in the US. I think that as long as there's no cash payout, it doesn't fall under any of our gambling laws. > > Heck, there are claw machines here filled with iPods and stuff. And all claw machines are set to only be winnable a fraction of the time according to an inner random number generator. But, so far as I know, even the claw machines with items worth hundreds of dollars don't have to tell you their odds. > > I've never heard of claw machines, even the iPod ones, having any sort of age limit. If we're letting children pump money into a machine with an undisclosed, randomized chance of a payout legitimately worth $200+, what are the odds of anyone raising a fuss over imaginary rewards?
But The Odds Are You Are Going To Play The Claw Machine once... Maybe Twice In Your 50 Times Passing it. Lockbox is different, there are items we need to compete better in game, items others are stomping us with because we don't have them. There is more desire for lockbox over random ipod claw... I pods are things of the past.
You won't spend 3000.00 at the claw machine. You can see how the claw works and it's weak joints... you know it's not gonna work... Lockbox you can't see how it works and there is no countdown of 30 opens left until you win a mount or anything.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
Lockbox is different, there are items we need to compete better in game, items others are stomping us with because we don't have them.
Which Items from Lockboxes ( which you cant buy at AH for ADs) do you really need to play this game and be succesfull and competitive? Im just curious. Thx.
Items in computer games will eventually have a declared legal status. It is only a question of when this will happen. Software companies like Cryptic will try to stop this happening for as long as they can get away with it >:)
From the ToS (Terms of Service)
"5. Proprietary Rights PWE is the owner of the Website, the Games, the Software and the Service, which are protected by US and international law including copyright laws. All rights and title in and to the Website, the Game, the Software and the Service, all features and content thereof (including without limitation any user accounts, titles, computer code, files, game software, client and server software, tools, patches, updates, themes, objects, characters, character names, stories, storylines, objects, content, text, dialogue, catch phrases, themes, locations, concepts, artwork, designs, graphics, pictures, video, animation, sounds, music, musical, compositions, sound recordings, audio-visual effects, information, data, documentation, “applets”, chat transcripts, character profile information, game play, recordings, in game items, in game activities, coin and Zen) and the selection and arrangement thereof (collectively the “Proprietary Materials”) are the proprietary property of PWE or its licensors and are protected by U.S. and international copyright and other proprietary rights laws.
14. License
14.1Subject to these Terms and any applicable EULA, we grant to you, for your non-commercial and personal use only, a limited, non-exclusive, revocable, non-transferable and non-sublicensable license to access and use the Service and the Proprietary Materials."
Why would the items need to have a legal status when apparently they already have one (property of PWE). I hope players are not pushing to be able to "own" their digital accomplishments which are already owned by the game company...
"Owning" a picture of nature taken on film is different from going into someone's home and taking pictures after you were told that you did not have permission to, though initially the film may be yours, the images taken in the home are not because you do not own the house, its contents and consequently need permission to take pictures/use them for some other purpose(s). Applying it to video games, the "game producers" own the game and "simply" allow people to play it, the players don't own their accounts, their characters, items, etc. therefore they can't acquire the rights to the legal status of them. Even players that spend money on a game (purchasing Zen for example) do not own it as far being able to do anything they want with it, there are clear restrictions of what players can do with the license they acquire by accpeting the ToS.
ALL Rights Reserved for any and all suggestions, ideas, etc. from this user.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY "No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
You won't spend 3000.00 at the claw machine. You can see how the claw works and it's weak joints... you know it's not gonna work... Lockbox you can't see how it works and there is no countdown of 30 opens left until you win a mount or anything.
Players can see the "RNG" involved with lock boxes on the front an back ends, lock boxes have something similar to this displayed about it's contents:
This (insert name of lock box contains contains: A
And may contain one of the following: B C D E
Or one of the following: F G H I J K
Like the claw machine, on the front end the player can see the prizes though the chances of getting what one wants is something else (the back end). How much a player invests into either is determined by that individual. There are a number of people that have invested considerable amounts into claw machines...
Which Items from Lockboxes ( which you cant buy at AH for ADs) do you really need to play this game and be succesfull and competitive? Im just curious. Thx.
Hello somebody
ALL Rights Reserved for any and all suggestions, ideas, etc. from this user.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY "No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
One of the difference between the claw machine and lockboxes would be admin messages. Those do very actively trigger one of the main bias of gambling, the tendancy to completely overestimate the chance of winning. Nobody in front of claw machines is constantly jumping around and suggesting that you win all the time. I'm not saying I like them, but most pay-to-loot system are much much worse.
Plus ToS are not really law. If a court decides the items belong to your neighbors cat, ToS can't do anything about it.
Lockbox is different, there are items we need to compete better in game, items others are stomping us with because we don't have them.
Which Items from Lockboxes ( which you cant buy at AH for ADs) do you really need to play this game and be succesfull and competitive? Im just curious. Thx.
Lion Mount
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
Yeah, our videogame baubles are already no different than a license to view a TV show on Netflix which the service may not even carry 6 months from now. This is why some people stick to buying physical format media. Nobody can take that away from you, at least not without robbing your house.
I think it is on the consumer to understand what you're buying, which is effectively nothing, or however much enjoyment you're deriving in the moment. Your account has no legal resale value. Your digital goods are not really yours and the devs might make design changes that alter the market value of any of them at any time. "Invest" accordingly.
I also buy artisanal whisky to drink it, not to stick the bottle in a vault so I can sell it to a collector in 20 years.... No, it will not have aged in the bottle, just gotten scarcer.
One of the difference between the claw machine and lockboxes would be admin messages. Those do very actively trigger one of the main bias of gambling, the tendancy to completely overestimate the chance of winning. Nobody in front of claw machines is constantly jumping around and suggesting that you win all the time. I'm not saying I like them, but most pay-to-loot system are much much worse.
But a slot machine or VLT does make noise and suggest you win. I think of lockbox announcements as more like that, except substantially easier for me to tune out despite not being able to turn them off. I can't be in a casino. The lights and noise make me ill. I moved my notification window off-centre (something the console players cannot do, for the record) and now lockbox stuff is just part of my chat scroll.
Lockboxes are also a bit like carny barkers trying to entice you to throw a lightweight ball at their heavy milk bottles. "Everyone gets a prize!"
Lockbox is different, there are items we need to compete better in game, items others are stomping us with because we don't have them.
Which Items from Lockboxes ( which you cant buy at AH for ADs) do you really need to play this game and be succesfull and competitive? Im just curious. Thx.
It's not so easy. The fact that something is available for AD doesn't make it less of an cash shop item. Somebody paid real money for it, even if it wasn't you. PWE gets the money one way or another when they make items exclusively available for ZEN. It's one of the great myths of free-to-play games that something being available for ingame currency works against pay-to-win. It does not.
Also the content of lockboxes are cleverly designed. It's not good enough to really create an issue and devs can always point out that you don't actually need anything to play the game. That's true, but if the amount of convenience and progression buyable is so big that it turns a pretty annoying experience into a decent one, than certain stuff becomes mandatory or the norm nonetheless.
Also in re to @beckylunatic I find it pretty interesting that some of the reasoning can be classified as "denial". What the article is saying is that while playing the game, certain powers out of the users' control take over what we're doing. That's a pretty troubling thought. Nobody likes losing control.
People always tend to react to such situations in the same way, they are searching for reasons why this can't happen to them. The system is not as bad, ToS great, transparent enough, in line with current law, if people spend money it's their own fault.
The scientific truth however is that you most likely already have been affected and have no control over it whatsoever.
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
I think I've made my fair share of threads about ways in which the game plays on all kinds of psychological factors, insecurities, jonesing to keep up with the Joneses. Much of it in ways that real life is also "out to get you". Social conditioning.
That's more where I'm coming from with the idea of being aware of what you're doing being a layer of protection. You are constantly under assault (dramatic, but also apt) by stimulus telling you that you neeeeeed this thing, and your life would be soooooo much better if you had this other thing, and all the many ways that not keeping in lockstep makes you a total loser and etc. Being able to recognize that is resistance.
That's why I've repeatedly made the point that if goldsellers offend (the royal) you, then every form of in-game advertising should offend you. Both are trying to sell you something, and the only real difference between them is that one is sponsored and one isn't. It's like being peeved at spam but ok with receiving a newsletter full of ads that you signed up for. Both are trying to accomplish the same thing. Saying one is ok and the other is not is submitting your agency to an authority figure.
I will fully admit that I have a very weird brain (medically/biologically) that makes how I perceive things aslant from how "normal"-brained people perceive things, and I can't always recognize the difference because I have no basis for comparison. I'm not really all that vulnerable to money-grab tactics, and it can be hard for me to recognize ways they work on others, because my own perspective tends to be, "So, why do you even care? If a thing costs too much, then walk away because it's not important." I only really dig my heels in when I recognize that QoL stuff is not just paywalled, but accessibility-walled. That's the socialism talking.
My own predispositions make me a lot more vulnerable to ways the game is designed to devour time, and most of my tirades are directed accordingly.
It's not so easy. The fact that something is available for AD doesn't make it less of an cash shop item. Somebody paid real money for it, even if it wasn't you.
I disagree cuzz it is that easy. I ask again my first question:
Which item from lockboxes do you need to play this game and be competitive? Is there any item you must have from the cash shop to play this game?
It's actually pretty common for companies to write things into these agreements that hey know don't have a snowballs chance in hell of being upheld in court. The reason being, of course, that most people will assume the Terms of Service accurately reflect the law.
I disagree cuzz it is that easy. I ask again my first question:
Which item from lockboxes do you need to play this game and be competitive? Is there any item you must have from the cash shop to play this game?
The problem is that it's a rhetorical question that completely misses the greater context. You're like standing at the North Pole and yelling "EVERYTHING IS FROZEN, WHERE IS THE GLOBAL WARMING?".
Thanks for the well reasoned post @beckylunatic. I think it's fair to assume that some individuals are more vulnerable to the stuff than others, for one reason or another. This however begs the question: Shouldn't those that are more vulnerable, most namely minors, be protected? I also don't think the argument that those technically shouldn't be able to spend money really works. We do prevention in a lot of areas that essentially are already covered/sealed off by law.
If we are going to discuss the long term effects of pay-to-loot systems we need to really ask ourselves if supporting this type of system and allowing it to be used by children will over time increase their risk-taking behavior or increase their propensity for gambling or addiction problems. Are we mentally setting people with developing brains up for a life time of detrimental behavior by our "reward system"
Here's the link to an interesting study in pre-schoolers, I copied the abstract as well for those who don't like to read scientific papers.
Abstract The types and characteristics of risk-taking or gambling-like behaviors in children are not well understood. Social learning, as one potential etiological factor of risktaking behavior in preschool children, was empirically examined. Prior to playing a risk-taking game, children in the experimental group were exposed to a peer model who had ostensibly won a large prize, whereas control children were exposed to a peer model who had won nothing. Children in the experimental group initiated more risks to win the large prize in the high-risk situation than children in the control group. The results indicated that modeling can enhance risk-taking/gambling-like behavior in young children. Parallels to compulsive gambling in adults, and recommendations for future research were also discussed.
Now obviously this game is not meant for pre-schoolers, but if we are talking the "pay to loot" system in general and not specifically about Neverwinter, I could imagine that there are plenty of examples of games that push a child's brain development to be more open to taking larger risks without an appropriate ROI.
Founding Member of "Wrong Side of the Stronghold" Ravenskya - TR / Krisha Chaos - OP / Waffles - GF / Dex Domitor - HR Becky the trendy GWF - GWF / Too Toasty - SW / Falcor - DC / Morrigan - CW / Sir Didymus - OP
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
I can't really answer that, except with a few general social observations.
Technically, as I already pointed out, minors are not supposed to be playing this game without supervision, or at all if under 13. But, many of us have run into players much younger than that with no parent in evidence. I personally don't have any issue with the adults I know who have kids under 13 that they play with the entire time, but the idea of just turning a child loose in an MMO is wrong to me on a lot more worrying levels than exposing them to lockboxes.
The importance of keeping an eye on what your kids are doing on the internet does extend to their gaming. And I'm not one to get overly alarmist about internet predators or stranger danger, but just the general lack of guidance in an environment with many potentially toxic influences. Keeping in mind also that recent brain research does indicate that teens are particularly horrible at making good decisions because that part of their mind is still developing. But being able to pause for a moment and think, "I'm being irrational right now because reasons and I should stop" is a valuable part of our development as people.
As for the actual money aspect, again, I'd kind of hope that a minor's spending is supervised and subject to questioning. You can start teaching even very young children to be responsible consumers, and that's again working against social influences that are telling them BUY THIS NOW (or beg your parents for it). For all the cracks that get made about kiddies putting all their P2W whatevers on their parents' credit card, if that's happening and no adult is cracking down on it, I think that's a parenting fail, more than a game design one.
I'm essentially with Madigan that I don't see spending on videogames as problematic unless you're doing so instead of paying your rent. I routinely have my mind blown by what people claim they spent on keys ("and I got nothing and RRRRRRRAAAAGE"), or on gearing a character ("and you nerfed it and RRRRRRRAAAAGE"), and I'll just be sitting there going, "OMG why?" but I don't think it's fair to view this as a problem specifically with games.
In order to really to have this conversation, we can't view games in isolation. They're only one aspect of a society built on consumerism. And I do believe that resisting those influences needs to come from within, from educating yourself, and from educating your offspring in how to make responsible decisions.
beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
And on a very related note, a Twitter thread that expresses a lot of the reasons why I find the advent of "life-simulation" in NW extremely dissatisfying and disaffecting.
Going back to the comparison with the claw machines containing iPhones, I think the main difference is that you can buy iPhones directly from shops for a price fixed by Apple while legendary mounts only are available through lottery tickets.
When trying to get an iPhones playing at the claw machines is an option but only an option, and most people will know at first sight that it isn't the best option.
Now if Apple was to decide to sell their iPhones at claw machines and nowhere else things would probably take an interesting turn. Some old Apple fans would get mad after spending thousands of dollar on a machine without getting there phone. Some other people would start selling (or re-selling) iPhones from the machines for frivolous amounts of money which basically is what's happening at the in-game auction house. But then there are other manufacturers of smart-phones while only PWE/Cryptic can create legendary mounts.
It's actually pretty common for companies to write things into these agreements that hey know don't have a snowballs chance in hell of being upheld in court. The reason being, of course, that most people will assume the Terms of Service accurately reflect the law.
Well, then go nuts! Sue them for writing a ToS that isn't legal. Talking about it as if it is actually that way does nothing.
As for telling people what the rules are, (if you're gonna be haughty, at least BOLD it) they do... in the ToS. Summed up "Your online experience may change. Not our fault, except through negligence."
If you want to argue concepts and couldabeens, have at it, as well. But those arguing for this pov sound like armchair lawyers arguing over whether reality is really real. (They also sound suspiciously like people with too much time on their hands)
Just my take. Since this will not amount to anything in the grand scheme.
Well, then go nuts! Sue them for writing a ToS that isn't legal.
Items in Terms of Service are routinely unenforceable, but putting such things in is not illegal. Companies face no repercussions for putting things in the Terms of Service that they know will never hold up. That's why they do it. It's a completely risk-free way to bluff/intimidate people.
Talking about it as if it is actually that way does nothing.
Maybe these particular Terms of Service contain blatantly unenforceable items, and maybe they don't. Only a lawyer has any hope of determining if the rights claimed in a specific agreement in any way resemble reality. Neither you nor I are lawyers, so we have no way of knowing if any of that would ever hold up.
The point is, bringing up the Terms of Service in an argument like this basically amounts to saying “The company said this is the way it is, so this is the way it is.” If your only contribution is to suggest we just take one side's word on things, you don't have a contribution.
Remember, out legal system allows companies to write whatever they want in these things with no fear of consequences even if they're taken to court. Did you read the article I linked?
And, heck, maybe Cryptic and PWE are being completely forthright with us. I'm not going to pay a lawyer just to get ammunition for an internet argument. But if you want to, feel free. You're the one who wants to trot out quasi-legal information that none of us are qualified to judge the veracity of.
You're the one who started in with the armchair-lawyering when you quoted the Terms of Service. I've only gotten into the lawyery stuff insofar as it was necessary to show you that you don't have the required background to be quoting legal documents at us.
As for telling people what the rules are, (if you're gonna be haughty, at least BOLD it) they do... in the ToS.
Dude, not everything is a jab at you and your platform. Draco was a revolutionary figure responsible for the aspects of modern legal systems that you yourself were praising. I'll give him a shout out if I want.
If you really want to randomly take offense over my praise of a historical figure, I can't stop you. But you're working yourself up over nothing.
Lockbox is different, there are items we need to compete better in game, items others are stomping us with because we don't have them.
Which Items from Lockboxes ( which you cant buy at AH for ADs) do you really need to play this game and be succesfull and competitive? Im just curious. Thx.
Lion Mount
Mmhhh...sure about it? No Mount Lions in AH?
Last I checked, a couple of weeks ago there was one. It was going for 28 million AD. I wonder how long it would take a new player to grind out 28 million AD? Supposing of course, they had the time to grind out 30k AD per day. Not all players do, you know.
Edit - I had to go get my calculator, cuz math & me are NOT friends... but, 933 days. 2-1/2 years to grind out enough AD to buy a Lion on the AH. so, yeah, but no. Not everything you can get from a lockbox is accessible for in-game currency.
2nd edit - I just checked the AH again. Now there are 7 lions. 29 million - 49 million. You do the math, my head hurts just thinking about it. I'm gonna go get an ibuprofen
Draco had nothing to do with my comment. I was reading the italization of 'write down laws and tell people what they were as a complaint that Cryptic wasn't publishing lockbox rates and such. If I misread that, I am truly sorry.
As for the rest, since we all know nothing about each others professions, then why have this thread if no one is qualified to speak? (BTW, how would you know anything about my background to make that statement?)
Finally,: "If your only contribution is to suggest we just take one side's word on things, you don't have a contribution."
And you are qualified to make this judgement how?
Its silly to argue ANY of this, since NO ONE will actually do anything about it. If it helps some schmoe sleep better at night to consider themselves the Caped Crusader of NW, have at it! BooYah! Just expect people to call your HAMSTER by its name. I expect that challange, and welcome it. But since I've angered the mods by commenting on some of these shenanigans, I have to stop replying now. I promise I will come back and read your (or anyones) responses. Please don't take my silence as acceptance of this argument. That would just make me sad.
Last I checked, a couple of weeks ago there was one. It was going for 28 million AD. I wonder how long it would take a new player to grind out 28 million AD? Supposing of course, they had the time to grind out 30k AD per day. Not all players do, you know.
Edit - I had to go get my calculator, cuz math & me are NOT friends... but, 933 days. 2-1/2 years to grind out enough AD to buy a Lion on the AH. so, yeah, but no. Not everything you can get from a lockbox is accessible for in-game currency.
2nd edit - I just checked the AH again. Now there are 7 lions. 29 million - 49 million. You do the math, my head hurts just thinking about it. I'm gonna go get an ibuprofen
Awesome...all i asked if there is no lion in Ah cuzz you said lion is a item from lockboxes that you cant buy in ah and now you make a headache math thing how long you have to grind for the price? I dont care about that price. You answered that lion is an item you can get only from lockboxes and you cant get from AH was simply wrong. Even with your funny text about grinding. No one needs this lion to play this game. So ive done my math: No grind for lion needed.
The problem is that it's a rhetorical question that completely misses the greater context. You're like standing at the North Pole and yelling "EVERYTHING IS FROZEN, WHERE IS THE GLOBAL WARMING?".
No it isnt rhetorical. My question is very simple: Do you need any item from lockboxes to play NW and to be competitive? Is it a must have, cuzz without this item you cant play NW? If there is no item from lockboxes you must have, there is no pay to win or pay to play in NW. There is no greater content. If you think NW and the terms of use are against the law, get a laywer and sue Cryp.
@spideymt I honestly don't know what to say at this point. I think I (we) sufficiently answered your claims and you keep reiterating your invalid point. Yes, there is no such item (hello dev logic!), but lockboxes are still pay-to-accelerate/win for the reasons I've stated (convenience, progression).
Above that it's outside the realm of the discussion a bit. The topic of the article is a completely different one (pay-to-loot). It even states while pay-to-win items do worsen the situation, they are not the driving factor to make the system work. So regardless who is "right" in terms of lockboxes, it's a negligible component anyway.
@beckylunatic Can't say I disagree, but I think we just have a different approach how to view the topic. For me it has a lot less to do with consumerism/parenting/society and a lot more with alcohol/cigarettes/gambling and addiction. Of course we do try our best to keep our kids from those stuff, but I still highly appreciate it that there are additional safety nets in terms of law, age restrictions or social disapproval.
Also in terms of normal advertising, which obviously also tries to trigger certain things, it's a different (but not less annoying) animal. Advertisement in my opinion tries to make us buy something one time (mostly) or make us buy one brand whevener we need it a certain type of product. Advertisement does not make us buy 100s of rolls of toilet paper, because why? If we buy stuff in bulk that we don't need, it's often a symptom of another issue. Also the advertisement lacks the randomness that makes pay-to-loot significantly worse in comparison.
As for the rest, since we all know nothing about each others professions, then why have this thread if no one is qualified to speak? (BTW, how would you know anything about my background to make that statement?)
The part about lacking qualification was directed at using direct quotations from legal documents, which one of the posters did. As for knowing about someone's background, that same poster also made comments suggesting he had no legal expertise.
Now, for thinking that you and this other poster were one and the same person, I do apologize. That was an error on my part.
I stand by my view that legal documents should not, in general, be quoted into forum arguments. However, I should not have laid the blame for that at your feet.
Draco had nothing to do with my comment. I was reading the italization of 'write down laws and tell people what they were as a complaint that Cryptic wasn't publishing lockbox rates and such. If I misread that, I am truly sorry.
You mentioned that law follows a written code. This is true of any modern legal system, but wasn't true before Draco. Now, maybe I've got a bit of a hard on for Draco, and it caused me to shove something in where it didn't fit. But, in my mind anyway, it was a straight path between your comment and mine.
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lantern22Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,111Arc User
well i just opened a lockbox and got 2 green insignias - that cured me of any addiction I might have had !!!
well i just opened a lockbox and got 2 green insignias - that cured me of any addiction I might have had !!!
Hey that's what was in MY lockbox.
Founding Member of "Wrong Side of the Stronghold" Ravenskya - TR / Krisha Chaos - OP / Waffles - GF / Dex Domitor - HR Becky the trendy GWF - GWF / Too Toasty - SW / Falcor - DC / Morrigan - CW / Sir Didymus - OP
Comments
> I'm not completely sure of the laws here in the US. I think that as long as there's no cash payout, it doesn't fall under any of our gambling laws.
>
> Heck, there are claw machines here filled with iPods and stuff. And all claw machines are set to only be winnable a fraction of the time according to an inner random number generator. But, so far as I know, even the claw machines with items worth hundreds of dollars don't have to tell you their odds.
>
> I've never heard of claw machines, even the iPod ones, having any sort of age limit. If we're letting children pump money into a machine with an undisclosed, randomized chance of a payout legitimately worth $200+, what are the odds of anyone raising a fuss over imaginary rewards?
But The Odds Are You Are Going To Play The Claw Machine once... Maybe Twice In Your 50 Times Passing it. Lockbox is different, there are items we need to compete better in game, items others are stomping us with because we don't have them. There is more desire for lockbox over random ipod claw... I pods are things of the past.
You won't spend 3000.00 at the claw machine. You can see how the claw works and it's weak joints... you know it's not gonna work... Lockbox you can't see how it works and there is no countdown of 30 opens left until you win a mount or anything.
"5. Proprietary Rights
PWE is the owner of the Website, the Games, the Software and the Service, which are protected by US and international law including copyright laws. All rights and title in and to the Website, the Game, the Software and the Service, all features and content thereof (including without limitation any user accounts, titles, computer code, files, game software, client and server software, tools, patches, updates, themes, objects, characters, character names, stories, storylines, objects, content, text, dialogue, catch phrases, themes, locations, concepts, artwork, designs, graphics, pictures, video, animation, sounds, music, musical, compositions, sound recordings, audio-visual effects, information, data, documentation, “applets”, chat transcripts, character profile information, game play, recordings, in game items, in game activities, coin and Zen) and the selection and arrangement thereof (collectively the “Proprietary Materials”) are the proprietary property of PWE or its licensors and are protected by U.S. and international copyright and other proprietary rights laws.
14. License
14.1Subject to these Terms and any applicable EULA, we grant to you, for your non-commercial and personal use only, a limited, non-exclusive, revocable, non-transferable and non-sublicensable license to access and use the Service and the Proprietary Materials."
Why would the items need to have a legal status when apparently they already have one (property of PWE). I hope players are not pushing to be able to "own" their digital accomplishments which are already owned by the game company...
"Owning" a picture of nature taken on film is different from going into someone's home and taking pictures after you were told that you did not have permission to, though initially the film may be yours, the images taken in the home are not because you do not own the house, its contents and consequently need permission to take pictures/use them for some other purpose(s). Applying it to video games, the "game producers" own the game and "simply" allow people to play it, the players don't own their accounts, their characters, items, etc. therefore they can't acquire the rights to the legal status of them. Even players that spend money on a game (purchasing Zen for example) do not own it as far being able to do anything they want with it, there are clear restrictions of what players can do with the license they acquire by accpeting the ToS.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
"No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
Suggestions: (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen
This (insert name of lock box contains contains:
A
And may contain one of the following:
B
C
D
E
Or one of the following:
F
G
H
I
J
K
Like the claw machine, on the front end the player can see the prizes though the chances of getting what one wants is something else (the back end). How much a player invests into either is determined by that individual. There are a number of people that have invested considerable amounts into claw machines... Hello somebody
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
"No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
Suggestions: (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen
Plus ToS are not really law. If a court decides the items belong to your neighbors cat, ToS can't do anything about it.
So, while not the law of the land, its the law of the game, until a court says otherwise.
I think it is on the consumer to understand what you're buying, which is effectively nothing, or however much enjoyment you're deriving in the moment. Your account has no legal resale value. Your digital goods are not really yours and the devs might make design changes that alter the market value of any of them at any time. "Invest" accordingly.
I also buy artisanal whisky to drink it, not to stick the bottle in a vault so I can sell it to a collector in 20 years.... No, it will not have aged in the bottle, just gotten scarcer. But a slot machine or VLT does make noise and suggest you win. I think of lockbox announcements as more like that, except substantially easier for me to tune out despite not being able to turn them off. I can't be in a casino. The lights and noise make me ill. I moved my notification window off-centre (something the console players cannot do, for the record) and now lockbox stuff is just part of my chat scroll.
Lockboxes are also a bit like carny barkers trying to entice you to throw a lightweight ball at their heavy milk bottles. "Everyone gets a prize!"
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
It's not so easy. The fact that something is available for AD doesn't make it less of an cash shop item. Somebody paid real money for it, even if it wasn't you. PWE gets the money one way or another when they make items exclusively available for ZEN. It's one of the great myths of free-to-play games that something being available for ingame currency works against pay-to-win. It does not.
Also the content of lockboxes are cleverly designed. It's not good enough to really create an issue and devs can always point out that you don't actually need anything to play the game. That's true, but if the amount of convenience and progression buyable is so big that it turns a pretty annoying experience into a decent one, than certain stuff becomes mandatory or the norm nonetheless.
Also in re to @beckylunatic I find it pretty interesting that some of the reasoning can be classified as "denial". What the article is saying is that while playing the game, certain powers out of the users' control take over what we're doing. That's a pretty troubling thought. Nobody likes losing control.
People always tend to react to such situations in the same way, they are searching for reasons why this can't happen to them. The system is not as bad, ToS great, transparent enough, in line with current law, if people spend money it's their own fault.
The scientific truth however is that you most likely already have been affected and have no control over it whatsoever.
That's more where I'm coming from with the idea of being aware of what you're doing being a layer of protection. You are constantly under assault (dramatic, but also apt) by stimulus telling you that you neeeeeed this thing, and your life would be soooooo much better if you had this other thing, and all the many ways that not keeping in lockstep makes you a total loser and etc. Being able to recognize that is resistance.
That's why I've repeatedly made the point that if goldsellers offend (the royal) you, then every form of in-game advertising should offend you. Both are trying to sell you something, and the only real difference between them is that one is sponsored and one isn't. It's like being peeved at spam but ok with receiving a newsletter full of ads that you signed up for. Both are trying to accomplish the same thing. Saying one is ok and the other is not is submitting your agency to an authority figure.
I will fully admit that I have a very weird brain (medically/biologically) that makes how I perceive things aslant from how "normal"-brained people perceive things, and I can't always recognize the difference because I have no basis for comparison. I'm not really all that vulnerable to money-grab tactics, and it can be hard for me to recognize ways they work on others, because my own perspective tends to be, "So, why do you even care? If a thing costs too much, then walk away because it's not important." I only really dig my heels in when I recognize that QoL stuff is not just paywalled, but accessibility-walled. That's the socialism talking.
My own predispositions make me a lot more vulnerable to ways the game is designed to devour time, and most of my tirades are directed accordingly.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
Which item from lockboxes do you need to play this game and be competitive? Is there any item you must have from the cash shop to play this game?
It's actually pretty common for companies to write things into these agreements that hey know don't have a snowballs chance in hell of being upheld in court. The reason being, of course, that most people will assume the Terms of Service accurately reflect the law.
The problem is that it's a rhetorical question that completely misses the greater context. You're like standing at the North Pole and yelling "EVERYTHING IS FROZEN, WHERE IS THE GLOBAL WARMING?".
Thanks for the well reasoned post @beckylunatic. I think it's fair to assume that some individuals are more vulnerable to the stuff than others, for one reason or another. This however begs the question: Shouldn't those that are more vulnerable, most namely minors, be protected? I also don't think the argument that those technically shouldn't be able to spend money really works. We do prevention in a lot of areas that essentially are already covered/sealed off by law.
Here's the link to an interesting study in pre-schoolers, I copied the abstract as well for those who don't like to read scientific papers.
Risk-taking/gambling-like behavior in preschool children
Abstract
The types and characteristics of risk-taking or gambling-like behaviors in children are not well understood. Social learning, as one potential etiological factor of risktaking behavior in preschool children, was empirically examined. Prior to playing a risk-taking game, children in the experimental group were exposed to a peer model who had ostensibly won a large prize, whereas control children were exposed to a peer model who had won nothing. Children in the experimental group initiated more risks to win the large prize in the high-risk situation than children in the control group. The results indicated that modeling can enhance risk-taking/gambling-like behavior in young children. Parallels to compulsive gambling in adults, and recommendations for future research were also discussed.
Now obviously this game is not meant for pre-schoolers, but if we are talking the "pay to loot" system in general and not specifically about Neverwinter, I could imagine that there are plenty of examples of games that push a child's brain development to be more open to taking larger risks without an appropriate ROI.
Ravenskya - TR / Krisha Chaos - OP / Waffles - GF / Dex Domitor - HR
Becky the trendy GWF - GWF / Too Toasty - SW / Falcor - DC / Morrigan - CW / Sir Didymus - OP
Technically, as I already pointed out, minors are not supposed to be playing this game without supervision, or at all if under 13. But, many of us have run into players much younger than that with no parent in evidence. I personally don't have any issue with the adults I know who have kids under 13 that they play with the entire time, but the idea of just turning a child loose in an MMO is wrong to me on a lot more worrying levels than exposing them to lockboxes.
The importance of keeping an eye on what your kids are doing on the internet does extend to their gaming. And I'm not one to get overly alarmist about internet predators or stranger danger, but just the general lack of guidance in an environment with many potentially toxic influences. Keeping in mind also that recent brain research does indicate that teens are particularly horrible at making good decisions because that part of their mind is still developing. But being able to pause for a moment and think, "I'm being irrational right now because reasons and I should stop" is a valuable part of our development as people.
As for the actual money aspect, again, I'd kind of hope that a minor's spending is supervised and subject to questioning. You can start teaching even very young children to be responsible consumers, and that's again working against social influences that are telling them BUY THIS NOW (or beg your parents for it). For all the cracks that get made about kiddies putting all their P2W whatevers on their parents' credit card, if that's happening and no adult is cracking down on it, I think that's a parenting fail, more than a game design one.
I'm essentially with Madigan that I don't see spending on videogames as problematic unless you're doing so instead of paying your rent. I routinely have my mind blown by what people claim they spent on keys ("and I got nothing and RRRRRRRAAAAGE"), or on gearing a character ("and you nerfed it and RRRRRRRAAAAGE"), and I'll just be sitting there going, "OMG why?" but I don't think it's fair to view this as a problem specifically with games.
In order to really to have this conversation, we can't view games in isolation. They're only one aspect of a society built on consumerism. And I do believe that resisting those influences needs to come from within, from educating yourself, and from educating your offspring in how to make responsible decisions.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
When trying to get an iPhones playing at the claw machines is an option but only an option, and most people will know at first sight that it isn't the best option.
Now if Apple was to decide to sell their iPhones at claw machines and nowhere else things would probably take an interesting turn. Some old Apple fans would get mad after spending thousands of dollar on a machine without getting there phone. Some other people would start selling (or re-selling) iPhones from the machines for frivolous amounts of money which basically is what's happening at the in-game auction house. But then there are other manufacturers of smart-phones while only PWE/Cryptic can create legendary mounts.
As for telling people what the rules are, (if you're gonna be haughty, at least BOLD it) they do... in the ToS. Summed up "Your online experience may change. Not our fault, except through negligence."
If you want to argue concepts and couldabeens, have at it, as well. But those arguing for this pov sound like armchair lawyers arguing over whether reality is really real. (They also sound suspiciously like people with too much time on their hands)
Just my take. Since this will not amount to anything in the grand scheme.
Maybe these particular Terms of Service contain blatantly unenforceable items, and maybe they don't. Only a lawyer has any hope of determining if the rights claimed in a specific agreement in any way resemble reality. Neither you nor I are lawyers, so we have no way of knowing if any of that would ever hold up.
The point is, bringing up the Terms of Service in an argument like this basically amounts to saying “The company said this is the way it is, so this is the way it is.” If your only contribution is to suggest we just take one side's word on things, you don't have a contribution.
Remember, out legal system allows companies to write whatever they want in these things with no fear of consequences even if they're taken to court. Did you read the article I linked?
And, heck, maybe Cryptic and PWE are being completely forthright with us. I'm not going to pay a lawyer just to get ammunition for an internet argument. But if you want to, feel free. You're the one who wants to trot out quasi-legal information that none of us are qualified to judge the veracity of.
You're the one who started in with the armchair-lawyering when you quoted the Terms of Service. I've only gotten into the lawyery stuff insofar as it was necessary to show you that you don't have the required background to be quoting legal documents at us.
Dude, not everything is a jab at you and your platform. Draco was a revolutionary figure responsible for the aspects of modern legal systems that you yourself were praising. I'll give him a shout out if I want.
If you really want to randomly take offense over my praise of a historical figure, I can't stop you. But you're working yourself up over nothing.
Edit - I had to go get my calculator, cuz math & me are NOT friends... but, 933 days. 2-1/2 years to grind out enough AD to buy a Lion on the AH. so, yeah, but no. Not everything you can get from a lockbox is accessible for in-game currency.
2nd edit - I just checked the AH again. Now there are 7 lions. 29 million - 49 million. You do the math, my head hurts just thinking about it. I'm gonna go get an ibuprofen
As for the rest, since we all know nothing about each others professions, then why have this thread if no one is qualified to speak? (BTW, how would you know anything about my background to make that statement?)
Finally,:
"If your only contribution is to suggest we just take one side's word on things, you don't have a contribution."
And you are qualified to make this judgement how?
Its silly to argue ANY of this, since NO ONE will actually do anything about it. If it helps some schmoe sleep better at night to consider themselves the Caped Crusader of NW, have at it! BooYah! Just expect people to call your HAMSTER by its name. I expect that challange, and welcome it. But since I've angered the mods by commenting on some of these shenanigans, I have to stop replying now. I promise I will come back and read your (or anyones) responses. Please don't take my silence as acceptance of this argument. That would just make me sad.
No one needs this lion to play this game. So ive done my math: No grind for lion needed.
Do you need any item from lockboxes to play NW and to be competitive? Is it a must have, cuzz without this item you cant play NW? If there is no item from lockboxes you must have, there is no pay to win or pay to play in NW. There is no greater content. If you think NW and the terms of use are against the law, get a laywer and sue Cryp.
Above that it's outside the realm of the discussion a bit. The topic of the article is a completely different one (pay-to-loot). It even states while pay-to-win items do worsen the situation, they are not the driving factor to make the system work. So regardless who is "right" in terms of lockboxes, it's a negligible component anyway.
@artificial86, @ravenskya, @maatmons thanks! Interesting, thoughtful stuff.
@beckylunatic Can't say I disagree, but I think we just have a different approach how to view the topic. For me it has a lot less to do with consumerism/parenting/society and a lot more with alcohol/cigarettes/gambling and addiction. Of course we do try our best to keep our kids from those stuff, but I still highly appreciate it that there are additional safety nets in terms of law, age restrictions or social disapproval.
Also in terms of normal advertising, which obviously also tries to trigger certain things, it's a different (but not less annoying) animal. Advertisement in my opinion tries to make us buy something one time (mostly) or make us buy one brand whevener we need it a certain type of product. Advertisement does not make us buy 100s of rolls of toilet paper, because why? If we buy stuff in bulk that we don't need, it's often a symptom of another issue. Also the advertisement lacks the randomness that makes pay-to-loot significantly worse in comparison.
Now, for thinking that you and this other poster were one and the same person, I do apologize. That was an error on my part.
I stand by my view that legal documents should not, in general, be quoted into forum arguments. However, I should not have laid the blame for that at your feet.
You mentioned that law follows a written code. This is true of any modern legal system, but wasn't true before Draco. Now, maybe I've got a bit of a hard on for Draco, and it caused me to shove something in where it didn't fit. But, in my mind anyway, it was a straight path between your comment and mine.
Ravenskya - TR / Krisha Chaos - OP / Waffles - GF / Dex Domitor - HR
Becky the trendy GWF - GWF / Too Toasty - SW / Falcor - DC / Morrigan - CW / Sir Didymus - OP