So, when does power stop giving any bonus damage then? The chart stops at 100k for some reason. If it was 100k, the DC thing would not be possible.
Mathematically, it will always continue to give bonus damage, but each point of power gives less incremental % increase to your dps than the one before it.
In game, it's possible we'd run into funny engine math if the numbers got larger than the memory allotted for them (or some derivative thereof in the game's damage engine). I've seen power numbers as high as 500k in the days of WoLooping and i've seen damage floaters affected but actual damage seemed ok.
And yes, you can go to limit theory but let's be serious those kinds of behaviors are not emergent at presently attainable power levels.
Because I couldn't resist:
If Janne has 10 apples and you give her 1 more, her apple supply is increased by 10% If Janne has 100 apples and you give her 1 more, her apple supply is increased by 1% If Janne has 1000 apples and you give her 1 more, her apple supply is increased by 0.1% You can keep giving her apples and it will always increase her apple supply But she'll be impressed less with each successive apple, because it'll make a smaller relative contribution to her growing apple empire.
While I wholeheartedly agree that the power creep is currently extreme and it should be avoided as a general rule, removing something players have worked/paid for is never a good idea. And btw what is the OPs personal problem with bonding runes? If a person finds that his character's power level is too much for any and all content he goes and suggest a global nerf that would affect not just himself but everyone else just in order to balance the game as per his own taste? Doesnt sound good imo
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
I never said the damage increase is 89%. I stated it grew to 89%, from 43.35%, an increase of almost 45.65%. The same thing just said a different way.
You'll see in this quote this, "would effectively increase his damage boost from 43.35% (based upon the 17300 from his gear not the companion or bonding stones) to 89% (which represents a boost from bondings stones of 18252) or almost a 45.65% for a total power buff of 35552 (of which 18252 came from the companion).
Note:
Total power buff is what he had before and after augmentation. The value 18252 is the Companions: Bonding, Gear & Enchantment Power buff Boost. The value 14769 is the Companions: Bonding, Gear & Enchantment Critical buff Boost which were excluded above.
Send me a PM if you still don't understand what is being said.
No...
Lets say you hit for 1000 damage with no power.
With the damage boost of 43.35%, you hit for:
1000*1.4335=1433.5
With the damage boost of 89% you hit for:
1000*1.89=1890
How much have you increased from 1433.5 to get to 1890?
1890/1433.5-1=0.31845134287
or a 31.8% increase.
You don't measure the absolute distance, you measure the relative distance.
No... The base Damage of 1000 is and must remain the benchmark which everything is evaluated against in this example.
With the damage boost of 43.35%, you hit for: 1000*1.4335=1433.5 Here you have no problem agreeing the base damage is 1000?
With the damage boost of 89% you hit for: 1000*1.89=1890
With the damage boost of 1.25% you hit for: 1000*2.25=2250
Changing the formula to incorrectly state: [(1890/1433.5-1]=0.31845134287 it's using prior gain's from higher power to misrepresent the damage increase.
The correct method is: [(1890/1000)-1] - [(1433.5/1000)-1] = 45.9% gain over the base damage being 1000.
"Compound interest is the addition of interest to the principal sum" which is what your trying to do or as they go on to say interest on interest. If you plot just the 18252 power boost from the companion as a raw value in Janne's you'd also get a 45% gain with that much power over the base.
As I've said from the start every 4000 power represents about a 10% gain so 50000 power although Janne's uses a more complicated formulae of [1+(power/39908.4)] although they do state in the chart below: "We saw that power doesn't have diminishing returns, but when we are looking at our dps increase we must take into account the relative increase to our current power."
That however is an entirely different assessment as I've explained above. Cause just the raw power of [(18252/4000)*10]=45 as the 10 is a multiplier give that is how many times 4000 goes into it for the 10% buff. Or just plot 18252 in Janne's or look at what the character sheet of someone who has that power says and it also agree.
I'm not sure where to start...
I guess first: at the page you link there is a bottom part (In red):
3. This is not compound interest. Not even close. A simplification of compound interest in this context will be gaining 10% power per hit (after the hit). And hence for 1k base weapon damage, and 20k power we will have
Hit #1: 1000 * (1+ 20/40) = 1500. Hit #2: 1000 * (1+ 20*1.1/40) = 1550 Hit #3: 1000 * (1+ 22*1.1/40) = 1605 Hit #4: 1000 * (1+ 24.2*1.1/40) = 1665.5
At the forth hit, we did 3 times +10% but when comparing to simply adding 30% power, we see: 1000 * (1+ 20*1.3/40) = 1650
1665.5 / 1650 * 100 = 100.93 -> We earned via the compound interest 0.93% more than the bulk increase sum.
4. Percents are simple, they are simple fraction notation, but they have fundamental requirement: You must properly handle of what the percent is.
If we want to know the dps increase in %, we need to take our new value, divide by the old value (substract the 1, if we want increase) and multiply by 100. This is the basics. The same way if we have 5 apples and we added a new apple, how much our new apple wealth is as compared to the old in percent ? 6/5*100 = 120% And how much it as increase? 20% increase.
We can verify:
5 * 1.2 = 6
Lets assume that fabricant had 5 apples and got 1. We know that his apple wealth increased by 20%. But Janne had also 5 apples and got 4 more (this is the proper order of things).
Now lets see by how much Janne's wealth increased:
(9/5 - 1 ) * 100 = 80%, or we can say Janne's current wealth is 180% larger than the starting one.
Lets check by how much Janne richer than fabricant:
9/6 * 100 = 150%, meaning, fabricant will need to increase his current wealth by 50% to match Janne. Lets verify:
6 * 1.5 = 9 Now looks like this works, now lets check your idea:
[(1890/1000)-1] - [(1433.5/1000)-1] = 45.9% translates to:
[9/5-1] - [6/5-1] = 80% - 20% = 60%
What those 60% signify ?
At each point, and each percent, we know what the percent signify, amount of X relative to amount Y. By subtracting and comparing the percents directly you lost the context and 'units of measurement'. This allows to answer who's percent higher, but we can't translate it back to apples realm.
It will also won't answer by how many percent Janne is richer, as you saw above, it's not 60%, but 50%.
Clearly you someone who like to over analyze things. And are missing or choosing to ignore the most most basic facts.
Anyone will realize as power grows further gains will represent a smaller increase if you comparing that to previously boosted damage buff from power when it was 20k, then 30k, then 50k, then 60k etc... But you're also not comparing it to base. Janne's identifies power grow is flat or as I've indicated it's grows 10% for 4000 power.
Using that simply fact 18500 power would be shown as a 45% boost over base. Just as 35000 power is a 89% boost. If this power is being added to an character that already has power or had none it will change how much power they gain over their previously power boost but it does not change how much power they gain to the base damage which is 10% boost for every 4000.
The fact that I've clearly 'touched' a nerve that has so many disagree is clear evidence many like the "OP" ness of bondings.
It's funny how people will say augments are not supposed to be powerful, yet are in denial when it comes to accepting many things about bondings:
▪ It's the only runestone that recieves a higher +840 power/defense along with an insane 95% augment boost. ▪ A companion with 3 boosts the players buff to 285%; while the companion attacks with 100% of the buff themselves.
That effectively gives the player an extremely powerful companion, or effectively like they had one companion and 3 augments summoned at the same time. These facts speak for themselves...
Or that your argument is wrong. You are misrepresenting information to make an argument. I really don't care if augments or bondings are BiS, I have both and I have the gear for both. What I DO have an issue with is the arguments you are making which aren't in any way reasonable.
It's funny how people will say augments are not supposed to be powerful, yet are in denial when it comes to accepting many things about bondings:
I cant read such a statement. Maybe you can quote that plz. They didnt deny your "facts" ( just a lot ppl who tell you how wrong your facts are). Could it be you are just reading what you want but not really what is written?
▪ It's the only runestone that recieves a higher +840 power/defense along with an insane 95% augment boost. ▪ A companion with 3 boosts the players buff to 285%; while the companion attacks with 100% of the buff themselves. That effectively gives the player an extremely powerful companion, or effectively like they had one companion and 3 augments summoned at the same time. These facts speak for themselves...
This effect was given from cryptic. To give players the choice beetween an endgame companion and and non endgame companion ( augment). This effect was a great decission from cryptic, cuzz now we got so many opitons to play with the companions. In the past everybody got an augment.....boring. Now you can make a comp for tankin or dps or healing or debuffing etc. This is what i want in a MMOPRG. I like the versatility with companions now. Not like it was in the past.
I'm not going to come in here and argue math - my only issue with bondings is conceptual. This game is supposed to be based on DnD. In the PnP version of DnD I can't recall an instance where you put your best/strongest gear on your companion. The best gear/enchants/runes should go on your character, they always did. Instead in this game if you have 3 rank 12 enchants and all the rest are rank 9-10s - you would put the 12's on your companion and keep the 9-10's on yourself. That is my only issue with bonding.
Do I think they need to nerf it? No because people invested heavily into it (myself included) but conceptually I think they need to maybe rethink the outcomes of the random things they do like bonding.
Founding Member of "Wrong Side of the Stronghold" Ravenskya - TR / Krisha Chaos - OP / Waffles - GF / Dex Domitor - HR Becky the trendy GWF - GWF / Too Toasty - SW / Falcor - DC / Morrigan - CW / Sir Didymus - OP
While I wholeheartedly agree that the power creep is currently extreme and it should be avoided as a general rule, removing something players have worked/paid for is never a good idea. And btw what is the OPs personal problem with bonding runes? If a person finds that his character's power level is too much for any and all content he goes and suggest a global nerf that would affect not just himself but everyone else just in order to balance the game as per his own taste? Doesnt sound good imo
This is the whole reason the thread was created because some people commenting or others noticing quite often on runs where they see one playing doing 125-160m damage perhaps while others in the party maybe do 15-30m damage, perhaps others 7-12m, and some even perhaps 4-6m.
Often the person who does 4-6m might be a newer character perhaps around 2.3k gear score approaching 2.5-2.6 who's run that dungeon and even done upwards of 15-20m themselves... the difference is they just were not able to kill things so efficiently where they feel like their even contributing. Certainly when one player has a massive damage lead sure some of it might get further enhanced by buff/debuff's from support but this person is already an extreme case. Cause even without the buff/debuff's they'd still likely be doing very high damage cause there are a lot of people who can take Orcus on all by themselves or others who challenge Demogorgon all by themselves. This is only mostly a result enabled because bonding has upset the previously delicate balance.
So while some have asked for a nerf to support classes or a nerf to buff/debuff which I'd argue are not the cause of the issue. Those wizard, cleric, paladin or guardian often take a damage reduction to enable those buff's allowing someone else to shine. A cleric even a Devine Oracle is still no match for a GWF while they are certainly much more respectable in the damage standings...
However realize bonding really enables a single player to no longer need the benefit of any team around him.
Next time your in a dungeon and you see someone do a crazy amount of damage inspect the companion. It's very likely that person has 3x Bonding stones of Rank 9 or far greater yet equipped, and while you won't see the gear or enchantments, it's safe to bet if they have R12 Bondings they likely have R12 Brutals.
So I instead ask this question: What else in the game allows you to turns 6 R12's into 18 R12 enchantments for the player, all while the companion also gain's a benefit of 6 R12's for his own attacks? Even at endgame today your Armor get's One Defense slot for an enchantment, but remember head, arms and feet are all Utility's. So to boost your players offensive or defensive abilities all you're given is two rings (95% have a defense & offense slot except 1-2 that have just offense), your neck and waist are also Utility, so that leaves one more offense and defense slot in your shirt or pants.
That means: ▪ One Defense slot in Armor. ▪ Two Offense slots in Main Hand if both Unlocked. ▪ One Offense or Defense slot in Offhand depending on class. ▪ One Offense and Defense in Right Ring. ▪ One Offense and Defense in Left Ring. ▪ One Offense in Shirt. ▪ One Defense in Pants.
That's a total of 9 enchantments in total to buff your powers be they Power, Critical, Armor Pen, Lifesteal, Defense, etc... ▪ Bonding lets the companion attack gaining full benefit of 6 Enchants, Gear, and 3 runestones. ▪ At the same time it turns the companions 6 enchantments effectively into 18 addition ones for the player. ▪▪ That is essentially twice as many as the character themselves can even slot in their gear.
I realize some may be making really minor disagreements over how power is calculated, but the fact is every almost 4000 boost to power represents a 10% gain to damage (sure it's based on naked-gear player but that is how base state is evaluated from) so the higher your power gets it's also true each 10% increase to base will represent a smaller increase or gain but still power grows at a fixed or constant rate.
I'm not going to come in here and argue math - my only issue with bondings is conceptual. This game is supposed to be based on DnD. In the PnP version of DnD I can't recall an instance where you put your best/strongest gear on your companion. The best gear/enchants/runes should go on your character, they always did. Instead in this game if you have 3 rank 12 enchants and all the rest are rank 9-10s - you would put the 12's on your companion and keep the 9-10's on yourself. That is my only issue with bonding.
Do I think they need to nerf it? No because people invested heavily into it (myself included) but conceptually I think they need to maybe rethink the outcomes of the random things they do like bonding.
I whole heartedly agree with this statement. I also having bonding stones and it be very difficult to NERF or CHANGE Bonding by actually changing the runestones themselves. So the only option is 1 of 2 things:
▪ Limit there use two only the first two runestone slots (effectively reducing bonding by one). ▪▪ While still allowing another runestone in the third slot, possibly also introduce 2-3 new runestones.
▪ Leave the limit at 3 but change how often bonding stones PROC. ▪▪ Change it so only 1 bonding can be triggered by one of the 5 attack powers rather than all at once. ▪▪ Also make each runestone slot 1, 2, and 3 each have their own unique cooldown before triggering again. ▪▪ This was also done to Cleric's AA abilities after all.
▪ At the same time it turns the companions 6 enchantments effectively into 18 addition ones for the player. ▪▪ That is essentially twice as many as the character themselves can even slot in their gear.
One person stated, "I like the versatility with companions now. Not like it was in the past." I could have quoted but didn't want to have to edit thru removing all the other quotes to simply show the one statement. Who wouldn't like the fact you basically turn one companion into 4 today (1 attack & 3 augments) or who wouldn't like the fact you turn up to 6 R12's into 18? Who wouldn't like the fact both the companion gain's 100% of the benefit (which also contributes to players DPS) while also gaining up to 300% of the benefit themselves? Also augments are just as much endgame gear as companions it's just up to players to decide where and when they want to use them based on the items their able to equip in them.
@strathkin you said: "However realize bonding really enables a single player to no longer need the benefit of any team around him. Next time your in a dungeon and you see someone do a crazy amount of damage inspect the companion. It's very likely that person has 3x Bonding stones of Rank 9 or far greater yet equipped..." In end-game everyone has 3x r12 bondings, its nothing special, its like having weapons equiped, its a must for PvE, period.
You will get there too, eventually, and u will perform bad or good, it doesnt depend on bondings.
What you should be asking for is a nerf for buffs and debuffs but, again, why would we want more time to get same lame rewards?
"▪ At the same time it turns the companions 6 enchantments effectively into 18 addition ones for the player. ▪▪ That is essentially twice as many as the character themselves can even slot in their gear."
Stats we get from companions are around 1/3 of our total stats. What is wrong with that? Is there a rule saying it cant be that much, has to be higher or lower? Last time i checked there was no such rule. And stop comparing not geared ppl to geared ppl, makes 0 sense.
I recognize bonding are BiS but if developers thought Loyal gear was overpowered then what do they call Bonding Stones PURE INSANITY? >:)
You can equip 9 enchantments into your Gear. That effectively turns your companions 6 enchantments into 18 which is effectively twice as many as your entire character can equip directly on themselves. >:)
Why should I ask others be penalized like support classes or buff/debuff's when junior players heavily rely on those to even complete content simply because one elephant has a high gear score of >3.5k and also likely has a companion loaded with R12 Bondings and R12 Brutal's and does even need the help of any party members to complete content?
I'm not comparing non geared players to geared players either. The damage bonus I calculated was based on the zero-power-sum but so is all power calculations in Neverwinter when you look at your character sheet. The 50% or 89% power buff you are shown is against the same zero-power-sum bonus as well.
Sure you could have chosen 100 different examples. I choose 17200 as the HR in one case because it was plasible for an end game player with epic gear, artifacts, and rank 8 enchantments on their character and then contrast it to show all R12 bondings and R12 Brutals if those were their best enchantments being equipped to their companion because of the 3 for 1 and 2 for 1 benefit gained from bonding.
Most seem only interested in downplaying the results bonding provide yet have no issue asking instead for a nerf be made to buff/debuff's when many of those classes already likely do less damage to provide most of those buffs to others. A cleric that is going to buff power the most is an Anointed Champion but many of their encounter powers are far more focused on healing or buff's than directly damage which still results in many having to party up with other players in many campaign area because it's still harder to solo it by themselves.
Still it does not change the fact Bonding essentially turns up to 6 R12 enchantments into 18 additional R12 enchantments.
The player themselves at endgame can only even equip no more than 9 offensive and defensive enchantments in their gear total. That effectively tripple's the # of enchantments one can benefit from at end game. It also does this while allowing the companion and player gain the same benefits to each of their own individual powers which both comprise of the players overall DPS.
I can respect people disagree with me. But anyone who claims Bondings are not an extremely powerful tool that gives you 18 R12 enchantments for the cost of 6 with other 2 for 1 benefits is well kidding themselves... So yea they aren't just BiS EiS (Extreme in Slot).
Yet even if they did nerf bonding it's still the single largest cause for why some players speed run most dungeons with little or no need for any party members being around them. I'd also caution against nerfing support classes or buff/debuff's cause many junior or intermediate players at end game still rely heavily on those for their party's or guilds to complete many challenges.
I joined a friend guild for a few TIAMAT run's and while their Guild has grown from Rank 3 to now almost Rank 7 now they still failed TIAMAT 3 times despite many players having 3k gear scores. Now while the guild has some good managers leading and growing the guild now there barely only starting to unlock guild boons at the earliest stages now.
So asking a nerf to those abilities only harms more junior players trying to grow their guilds / player base rather than providing a little more balance among the elephants being a little more dependent to still at least needing or even partially dependent upon some of their party members.
@strathkin You seem to be arguing just for the sake of argument. As i said, in end-game every1 has r12 bondings but still there is huge difference in performance. It not bcs of bondings bcs every1 has them. Where is the problem? Of course buffers/debuffers do less damage bcs their purpose is exactly that what you said, to provide buffs to others, not to do damage. Augments turn the benefit of 6 enchants into benefit of 9 enchants. Should we nerf that too? It doesnt matter from where the stats are coming. Companion stats are coming just from gear and enchants. Player has a lot more other sources for stats, not just enchants and 3 gear pieces like companion. Character total stats are far higher than total companion stats. Also all the benefit companion itself gets from those stats doesnt matter, companion's damage is not even 1% of total damage. You want ppl who have bondings to deal same damage like ppl who dont have bondings. It doesnt work like that.
Edit: Those elephants you speak of which do speed runs already use 4 supporters in their parties, they cant get more.
No Blur Augments at most provide 115% augmentation (Legendary), but can also only extend it by 12% or more if they have two defense slots or 24% in total for 139%. That would represent in a gain from 6 R12 enchantments out to 8.34 R12's at most not 18 like bonding; they also don't gain the 2 for 1 benefit of attacking with 5 powers using the same benefit they also then augment with.
That is how I should have started this thread and completely ignored the example I started with.
Post edited by strathkin on
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dread4moorMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,154Arc User
Full disclosure. I have 3×rank12 Bondings on my primary and secondary toons. My third toon has an augment. Not because augments are better. They are not. I refuse to dismiss my beloved polarbear cub on the grounds of maximal cuteness stats. OP, I offer a positive alternative; A non-nerf friendly ammendment:
Buff the augments by unlocking companion's gift on augments. "Bonded Augments".
Yes, I know they do not attack. They could proc like the underdark rings upon the toon attacking/being attacked once every 30 second or so.
TLDR "Bonded Augments" buff instead of Bonded Companion nerf. Do the quick math. Could potentially have higher gift then Bonded pets but balanced by a cool down. Pros? Cons? Equity? Discuss among yourselves. [Grabs popcorn]
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
@strathkin No. Bonding companion provide 0% buff but it can be extended to 300% and thats what you do when you want the best. Same like you would do with Augments if you want the best and the best is 151%. Every now and then a new player shows up who lost in Paingiver to a player who had lower IL but had bondings and then that player comes to make Nerf Bondings thread. We had it multiple times so far, you are neither first nor last to make such thread. Get r12 bondings yourself, problem solved.
I've very open minded. I'm not stuck on limiting bonding to one less runestone slot as it was one suggestion; however, I do believe it far more than nerfing buff/debuff's provided would control the actual cause of power creep. Still I recognize the idea was going to be controversial given that people have spend time growing them, cause they are the biggest single way to making the most efficient gain's to damage that nothing comes even close to touching upon.
No one else are you going to potentially turn 6 R12 Enchantments into 18 while also gaining the attack all the time on the original 6 for up to a total of 24.
Still I appreciate you're being constructive.
But I am saddened by those who want to ignore bonding but are asking instead for a nerf to support or buff/debuff's who do far less damage themselves as many intermediate players or guilds still heavily rely on those to do content. They want to maintain the power for the elephant but ignoring bonding, but want to nerf the little guy or the guy who gives up power to reducing the benefit his buff/debuff's provide.
blur yes I realize bonding may not have 100% uptime but they do trigger quite often and frequently enough that players will see the 4 to 1 benefit regularly enough. I have previously stated most augments have 1 defense, a few have 2 defense, and their at very most might be 1 that has 3 defense slots to extend augmentation out to 151%; still an augment only augments it does also not attack or gain a 2 for 1 benefit as well. Still it's far more likely most augments like the chicken at most are going to do 139% or less and some Ioun Stones have only 1 defense slot reducing that a further 12%.
Still I think the only thing this discussion identifies is there are no easy answers... If you nerf support or buff/debuff your going to hurt intermediate players or guilds who are trying to rank up because you don't want to limit an elephant. At the same time buff/debuff can boost the elephant into even far higher territory, but chances are they didn't even require the buff as they could often solo most content even without it, but the intermediate player relies on those buff/debuff's to complete much content.
So again no easy answers if people want to avoid limiting bonding with the exception of more tiered high gear score dungeons or content that will exclude some players until they slowly grow into those roles. The reality is that often takes most players years to grow their gear scores even if they mostly focus on one character at a time.
Quick contextual note: do ya'll remember before bonding runestones were a thing when augments were BiS and everyone had the same 1 or 2 sparkles orbiting their heads?
There was a time when augments were mandatory and summoned companions were only for leveling (if that). Those were sad times, because all of the great companions out there with their diverse behavior and creative art were relegated to the bench (or the stable).
Then came the unchecked golden era of the bonding runestone. At first, it was buggy in several ways. Each of the stones used to proc individually with it's own duration and refresh. Companion choice was narrow, because you needed a fast good bonding proc'er. But this was truly a crazy unchecked era. There were a variety of unintended interactions that could cause runestones to proc way too many times over. Combine that with the then-not-yet-fixed Weapons of Light behavior that shared buffed power instead of unbuffed power, and you had silly power feedback loops through companions, where power would grow over time (I affectionately called it WoLooping)
The nonesense had to stop. A fix from the Devs above, combining the unruly 3 bonding stones into one buff. And a change of behavior, a proclamation freeing the Zhentarim Warlocks from their bondage to the delight of all of the stabled companions. Bondings would refresh before their duration was up and they would no longer stack. The era of toned down bonding began.
Now some can argue that the bondings could use further adjustment, that's probably fair. But it's also fair to note that reducing the power without compensating in the loot system would be demoralizing. Dungeons would be harder / take longer and rewards would be the same.
A different suggestion would be to adjust augments to make them work better. I think some of those ideas are kind of cool. There are a couple mechanics differences that would make it difficult for augments to surpass bondings without significant rework (either of the augments or of certain in-game mechanics). But I think this is probably the option that would ruffle the fewest feathers, and there are some quick fixes that are likely not too hard to implement which would help out a bit at least.
I whole heartedly agree with you Dupek! I also thank you for at least noting that, "Now some can argue that the bondings could use further adjustment, that's probably fair. But it's also fair to note that reducing the power without compensating in the loot system would be demoralizing."
I know it likely wasn't easy to admit that the statement was fair, even for those that might not completely agree with it.
Still I also agree it be nice to see slightly better rewards for more mini/boss or bosses in dungeon fights or loot in chests. It saddening to everyone especially when you buy a EPIC key for 5000 refined diamonds to only come out of it with 2000 salvage that you have to refine and nothing else. Why aren't we seeing a least a few more Aqua's, or Sapphires, perhaps even an Opal's or Ruby's, maybe even at rare times a Brilliant Diamond sometimes dropped from the odd chest? Today were lucky if we find but a single Peridoe.
All I'm looking for is to see a little more balance restored to the game. I also believe that is the same thing defiantone99 is looking for as well. Still I urge caution in asking that buff/debuff's get nerfed because many intermediate players have often taken reduced damage to gain them, so you inversely penalize those support classes who give up damage in lieu of the parties. If you Nerf them in part or whole you're going to have more players ask what role is a support class to fulfill? Are we instead going to see a shift to all players simply being pure DPS classes?
I certainly want to see party that works together to achieve goals, just as equally as I'd like to see a variety of companions being summoned, regardless if they are a striker, controller, leader, defender or augments. Again no easy answers...
@strathkin Look at it this way. You and i start new characters. You buy an augment, i buy a bonding companion. You get 100% boost and i get 0% boost. Augments are too strong. You got 100% boost without any investment except buying the companion, while i have 0% and i need time and investments and exactly that rewards me later bcs i had to do more than you and of course i should be rewarded more than you. You said many times "...it does also not attack or gain a 2 for 1 benefit as well.", i will repeat, it doesnt matter that bonding companion attacks and gains those almighty stats you think bcs companion's damage is so low that it doesnt matter, it can be removed totaly, nothing would change.
Elephants are only elephants when they come into t1 and t2 content, which requires 1600 or 2000 IL. Of course they crush everything in there bcs they are by far overgeared for that content. They have almost 4400 IL while that content asks for 2000. Put those elephants in 3k+ content without buffs and debuffs and you will see that they are not Elephants anymore. If you dont want best augment providing 151% boost you dont have to get best out of bonding companions either, you dont have to go for 300% you can stay at 200% boost.
Also you misunderstood me, i dont want to nerf buffers/debuffers. I said if you wanted nerfs thats the door you should be knocking on but you shouldnt because more time needed for same bad rewards is not a good trade.
I never said you wanted nerf's support either. If you read the white above... I'm also not trying to single any one person out either... I was simply trying to acknowledge I think we're all looking for a similar solution to power creep, just have different idea's about where the core of the problem resides.
Also Augments and Companions can both be made easily comparable while leveling cause remember all Rare & EPIC companions from the CSTORE include a Rank 7 Lesser Bonding Stone (essentially a Rank 8 benefit) while augments from lockboxes often don't include.
But as you've identified perhaps we should just be happy and not care if Elephants as you say speed running some 2000 dungeons or even the odd Epic 2500 trials, or the odd 2800 challenge if that's what they want to do. It might allow them to grow some of their other characters a little, but maybe it's just best to just leave that one lye and we simple be thankful when we are lucky enough to have that elephant join on us a dungeon run instead.
I can live with that. I'm not demanding 1 less bonding runestone be allowed to trigger it was simply a question; however, can defiantone99 or others that are asking for nerf's to support buff/debuff's also let it slide?
True. But each class has 3 different feat paths to choose or offer a variety of ways in which their class can benefit a party.
Guardian's, Paladin's and Cleric's can be a combination of tanks, healers, or offer some form of buff but traditionally they are also a long way off the highest damaging classes in the game. Also in the case of a Paladin who can provide up to 25% of his power to other players who are within 30-40 feet, one must first remain within the distance for a whole 6s before it proc's, and then must also pay close attention to staying within to maintain it.
Wizard's can be a combination of damage or control, those taking renegade path do so at a sizeable DPS reduction, for them to gain the buff/debuff's that the party benefits from. I have a friend who has a 3.1k DPS Wizard MoF who is Renegade and she notes her damage is horrible in contrast to others around her gear score. Now perhaps it will increase as she looking to getting a nice Epic companion with Rank 8 Bonding stones in it now after consulting with me yesterday... But still she'll likely be lower than others with comparable gear score because most of the feats are based on buff/debuff not damage increases to her own abilities.
I will agree perhaps with defianteone that perhaps one maybe two cleric's abilities 'could' be slightly reduced as I've always considered myself an objective and fair person who can be reasoned with. Especially after Cleric's finally got a little love with the buff's to other abilities, but caution about going too far with too many other support classes, especially when they've already seen sizeable reductions to damage or protection abilities. Paladin for example took huge nerf's to Devine Justice for the PvP community then again with Devine Protector, just as Cleric's have also been limited to how often they may use AA for Anointed Champions in this case.
(in process of expanding post so please bare with...)
@defiantone99 I think i understand your idea but a lot would have to be changed to reach that state, i dont support your idea to be implemented in current state. For runs to last longer we would have to get better rewards and seems like they dont like to gives us a higher chance than 0.001% and with that longer runs still bad rewards, its not something people would agree to. Players taking damage, again a lot would have to be changed. First complete removal of self heals due to LS or insignias in PvE, heals can only come from DC or OP. Our HP pool would have to be increased to take hits are remain alive and some unavoidable aoe damage would have to be added to inflict that damage. WoW worked like that when i played it (was long ago tho) but WoW had incomparably better reward system compared to NW.
The only challenge there is that a 2.5-2.9k player could be taking incredible damage while also barely scratching a 1600-2000 end game boss while a 3.5-4.4k player especially if they had 3 R12 Bondings equipped with all R12 Brutals is going to be hard to slow by more than perhaps 5-7s without making the content almost unplayable for far too many others.
Without limiting bonding by 1 runestone how do we do that.
You could reduce Terrifying Insight base damage which starts at 18% and sure it does extend upwards to 40% to the whole party. Also realize that even a Devine Oracle still today often does 20-30% less damage than other DPS classes including the additional 40% buff they receive. An Anointed Champion does even less as they don't gain that 40% benefit while having even fewer encounters that provide direct offensive attacks, as they have more healing or protection encounters aside from their buff given to party's power given by a paragon at-wills. But their damage is also far lower than a Devine Oracle.
The problem is it's a fine line.
I'd rather let the Elephant have their quick victory especially if people don't want to limit bonding to only two runestone slots and leave it at that.
Comments
In game, it's possible we'd run into funny engine math if the numbers got larger than the memory allotted for them (or some derivative thereof in the game's damage engine). I've seen power numbers as high as 500k in the days of WoLooping and i've seen damage floaters affected but actual damage seemed ok.
And yes, you can go to limit theory but let's be serious those kinds of behaviors are not emergent at presently attainable power levels.
Because I couldn't resist:
If Janne has 10 apples and you give her 1 more, her apple supply is increased by 10%
If Janne has 100 apples and you give her 1 more, her apple supply is increased by 1%
If Janne has 1000 apples and you give her 1 more, her apple supply is increased by 0.1%
You can keep giving her apples and it will always increase her apple supply
But she'll be impressed less with each successive apple, because it'll make a smaller relative contribution to her growing apple empire.
Or that your argument is wrong. You are misrepresenting information to make an argument. I really don't care if augments or bondings are BiS, I have both and I have the gear for both. What I DO have an issue with is the arguments you are making which aren't in any way reasonable.
Do I think they need to nerf it? No because people invested heavily into it (myself included) but conceptually I think they need to maybe rethink the outcomes of the random things they do like bonding.
Ravenskya - TR / Krisha Chaos - OP / Waffles - GF / Dex Domitor - HR
Becky the trendy GWF - GWF / Too Toasty - SW / Falcor - DC / Morrigan - CW / Sir Didymus - OP
Often the person who does 4-6m might be a newer character perhaps around 2.3k gear score approaching 2.5-2.6 who's run that dungeon and even done upwards of 15-20m themselves... the difference is they just were not able to kill things so efficiently where they feel like their even contributing. Certainly when one player has a massive damage lead sure some of it might get further enhanced by buff/debuff's from support but this person is already an extreme case. Cause even without the buff/debuff's they'd still likely be doing very high damage cause there are a lot of people who can take Orcus on all by themselves or others who challenge Demogorgon all by themselves. This is only mostly a result enabled because bonding has upset the previously delicate balance.
So while some have asked for a nerf to support classes or a nerf to buff/debuff which I'd argue are not the cause of the issue. Those wizard, cleric, paladin or guardian often take a damage reduction to enable those buff's allowing someone else to shine. A cleric even a Devine Oracle is still no match for a GWF while they are certainly much more respectable in the damage standings...
However realize bonding really enables a single player to no longer need the benefit of any team around him.
Next time your in a dungeon and you see someone do a crazy amount of damage inspect the companion. It's very likely that person has 3x Bonding stones of Rank 9 or far greater yet equipped, and while you won't see the gear or enchantments, it's safe to bet if they have R12 Bondings they likely have R12 Brutals.
So I instead ask this question: What else in the game allows you to turns 6 R12's into 18 R12 enchantments for the player, all while the companion also gain's a benefit of 6 R12's for his own attacks? Even at endgame today your Armor get's One Defense slot for an enchantment, but remember head, arms and feet are all Utility's. So to boost your players offensive or defensive abilities all you're given is two rings (95% have a defense & offense slot except 1-2 that have just offense), your neck and waist are also Utility, so that leaves one more offense and defense slot in your shirt or pants.
That means:
▪ One Defense slot in Armor.
▪ Two Offense slots in Main Hand if both Unlocked.
▪ One Offense or Defense slot in Offhand depending on class.
▪ One Offense and Defense in Right Ring.
▪ One Offense and Defense in Left Ring.
▪ One Offense in Shirt.
▪ One Defense in Pants.
That's a total of 9 enchantments in total to buff your powers be they Power, Critical, Armor Pen, Lifesteal, Defense, etc...
▪ Bonding lets the companion attack gaining full benefit of 6 Enchants, Gear, and 3 runestones.
▪ At the same time it turns the companions 6 enchantments effectively into 18 addition ones for the player.
▪▪ That is essentially twice as many as the character themselves can even slot in their gear.
I realize some may be making really minor disagreements over how power is calculated, but the fact is every almost 4000 boost to power represents a 10% gain to damage (sure it's based on naked-gear player but that is how base state is evaluated from) so the higher your power gets it's also true each 10% increase to base will represent a smaller increase or gain but still power grows at a fixed or constant rate.
▪ Limit there use two only the first two runestone slots (effectively reducing bonding by one).
▪▪ While still allowing another runestone in the third slot, possibly also introduce 2-3 new runestones.
▪ Leave the limit at 3 but change how often bonding stones PROC.
▪▪ Change it so only 1 bonding can be triggered by one of the 5 attack powers rather than all at once.
▪▪ Also make each runestone slot 1, 2, and 3 each have their own unique cooldown before triggering again.
▪▪ This was also done to Cleric's AA abilities after all.
▪ At the same time it turns the companions 6 enchantments effectively into 18 addition ones for the player.
▪▪ That is essentially twice as many as the character themselves can even slot in their gear.
One person stated, "I like the versatility with companions now. Not like it was in the past." I could have quoted but didn't want to have to edit thru removing all the other quotes to simply show the one statement. Who wouldn't like the fact you basically turn one companion into 4 today (1 attack & 3 augments) or who wouldn't like the fact you turn up to 6 R12's into 18? Who wouldn't like the fact both the companion gain's 100% of the benefit (which also contributes to players DPS) while also gaining up to 300% of the benefit themselves? Also augments are just as much endgame gear as companions it's just up to players to decide where and when they want to use them based on the items their able to equip in them.
Next time your in a dungeon and you see someone do a crazy amount of damage inspect the companion. It's very likely that person has 3x Bonding stones of Rank 9 or far greater yet equipped..."
In end-game everyone has 3x r12 bondings, its nothing special, its like having weapons equiped, its a must for PvE, period.
You will get there too, eventually, and u will perform bad or good, it doesnt depend on bondings.
What you should be asking for is a nerf for buffs and debuffs but, again, why would we want more time to get same lame rewards?
"▪ At the same time it turns the companions 6 enchantments effectively into 18 addition ones for the player.
▪▪ That is essentially twice as many as the character themselves can even slot in their gear."
Stats we get from companions are around 1/3 of our total stats. What is wrong with that? Is there a rule saying it cant be that much, has to be higher or lower? Last time i checked there was no such rule. And stop comparing not geared ppl to geared ppl, makes 0 sense.
You can equip 9 enchantments into your Gear. That effectively turns your companions 6 enchantments into 18 which is effectively twice as many as your entire character can equip directly on themselves. >:)
Why should I ask others be penalized like support classes or buff/debuff's when junior players heavily rely on those to even complete content simply because one elephant has a high gear score of >3.5k and also likely has a companion loaded with R12 Bondings and R12 Brutal's and does even need the help of any party members to complete content?
I'm not comparing non geared players to geared players either. The damage bonus I calculated was based on the zero-power-sum but so is all power calculations in Neverwinter when you look at your character sheet. The 50% or 89% power buff you are shown is against the same zero-power-sum bonus as well.
Sure you could have chosen 100 different examples. I choose 17200 as the HR in one case because it was plasible for an end game player with epic gear, artifacts, and rank 8 enchantments on their character and then contrast it to show all R12 bondings and R12 Brutals if those were their best enchantments being equipped to their companion because of the 3 for 1 and 2 for 1 benefit gained from bonding.
Most seem only interested in downplaying the results bonding provide yet have no issue asking instead for a nerf be made to buff/debuff's when many of those classes already likely do less damage to provide most of those buffs to others. A cleric that is going to buff power the most is an Anointed Champion but many of their encounter powers are far more focused on healing or buff's than directly damage which still results in many having to party up with other players in many campaign area because it's still harder to solo it by themselves.
Still it does not change the fact Bonding essentially turns up to 6 R12 enchantments into 18 additional R12 enchantments.
The player themselves at endgame can only even equip no more than 9 offensive and defensive enchantments in their gear total. That effectively tripple's the # of enchantments one can benefit from at end game. It also does this while allowing the companion and player gain the same benefits to each of their own individual powers which both comprise of the players overall DPS.
I can respect people disagree with me. But anyone who claims Bondings are not an extremely powerful tool that gives you 18 R12 enchantments for the cost of 6 with other 2 for 1 benefits is well kidding themselves... So yea they aren't just BiS EiS (Extreme in Slot).
Yet even if they did nerf bonding it's still the single largest cause for why some players speed run most dungeons with little or no need for any party members being around them. I'd also caution against nerfing support classes or buff/debuff's cause many junior or intermediate players at end game still rely heavily on those for their party's or guilds to complete many challenges.
I joined a friend guild for a few TIAMAT run's and while their Guild has grown from Rank 3 to now almost Rank 7 now they still failed TIAMAT 3 times despite many players having 3k gear scores. Now while the guild has some good managers leading and growing the guild now there barely only starting to unlock guild boons at the earliest stages now.
So asking a nerf to those abilities only harms more junior players trying to grow their guilds / player base rather than providing a little more balance among the elephants being a little more dependent to still at least needing or even partially dependent upon some of their party members.
As i said, in end-game every1 has r12 bondings but still there is huge difference in performance. It not bcs of bondings bcs every1 has them. Where is the problem?
Of course buffers/debuffers do less damage bcs their purpose is exactly that what you said, to provide buffs to others, not to do damage.
Augments turn the benefit of 6 enchants into benefit of 9 enchants. Should we nerf that too?
It doesnt matter from where the stats are coming. Companion stats are coming just from gear and enchants. Player has a lot more other sources for stats, not just enchants and 3 gear pieces like companion.
Character total stats are far higher than total companion stats. Also all the benefit companion itself gets from those stats doesnt matter, companion's damage is not even 1% of total damage.
You want ppl who have bondings to deal same damage like ppl who dont have bondings. It doesnt work like that.
Edit: Those elephants you speak of which do speed runs already use 4 supporters in their parties, they cant get more.
That is how I should have started this thread and completely ignored the example I started with.
ITT some serious Confirmation Bias happening. Heels dug in to the ankle.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias
Full disclosure. I have 3×rank12 Bondings on my primary and secondary toons.
My third toon has an augment. Not because augments are better. They are not.
I refuse to dismiss my beloved polarbear cub on the grounds of maximal cuteness stats.
OP, I offer a positive alternative; A non-nerf friendly ammendment:
Buff the augments by unlocking companion's gift on augments. "Bonded Augments".
Yes, I know they do not attack. They could proc like the underdark rings upon the toon attacking/being attacked once every 30 second or so.
TLDR
"Bonded Augments" buff instead of Bonded Companion nerf.
Do the quick math. Could potentially have higher gift then Bonded pets but balanced by a cool down.
Pros? Cons? Equity?
Discuss among yourselves.
[Grabs popcorn]
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
Every now and then a new player shows up who lost in Paingiver to a player who had lower IL but had bondings and then that player comes to make Nerf Bondings thread. We had it multiple times so far, you are neither first nor last to make such thread. Get r12 bondings yourself, problem solved.
No one else are you going to potentially turn 6 R12 Enchantments into 18 while also gaining the attack all the time on the original 6 for up to a total of 24.
Still I appreciate you're being constructive.
But I am saddened by those who want to ignore bonding but are asking instead for a nerf to support or buff/debuff's who do far less damage themselves as many intermediate players or guilds still heavily rely on those to do content. They want to maintain the power for the elephant but ignoring bonding, but want to nerf the little guy or the guy who gives up power to reducing the benefit his buff/debuff's provide.
blur yes I realize bonding may not have 100% uptime but they do trigger quite often and frequently enough that players will see the 4 to 1 benefit regularly enough. I have previously stated most augments have 1 defense, a few have 2 defense, and their at very most might be 1 that has 3 defense slots to extend augmentation out to 151%; still an augment only augments it does also not attack or gain a 2 for 1 benefit as well. Still it's far more likely most augments like the chicken at most are going to do 139% or less and some Ioun Stones have only 1 defense slot reducing that a further 12%.
Still I think the only thing this discussion identifies is there are no easy answers... If you nerf support or buff/debuff your going to hurt intermediate players or guilds who are trying to rank up because you don't want to limit an elephant. At the same time buff/debuff can boost the elephant into even far higher territory, but chances are they didn't even require the buff as they could often solo most content even without it, but the intermediate player relies on those buff/debuff's to complete much content.
So again no easy answers if people want to avoid limiting bonding with the exception of more tiered high gear score dungeons or content that will exclude some players until they slowly grow into those roles. The reality is that often takes most players years to grow their gear scores even if they mostly focus on one character at a time.
There was a time when augments were mandatory and summoned companions were only for leveling (if that). Those were sad times, because all of the great companions out there with their diverse behavior and creative art were relegated to the bench (or the stable).
Then came the unchecked golden era of the bonding runestone. At first, it was buggy in several ways. Each of the stones used to proc individually with it's own duration and refresh. Companion choice was narrow, because you needed a fast good bonding proc'er. But this was truly a crazy unchecked era. There were a variety of unintended interactions that could cause runestones to proc way too many times over. Combine that with the then-not-yet-fixed Weapons of Light behavior that shared buffed power instead of unbuffed power, and you had silly power feedback loops through companions, where power would grow over time (I affectionately called it WoLooping)
The nonesense had to stop. A fix from the Devs above, combining the unruly 3 bonding stones into one buff. And a change of behavior, a proclamation freeing the Zhentarim Warlocks from their bondage to the delight of all of the stabled companions. Bondings would refresh before their duration was up and they would no longer stack. The era of toned down bonding began.
Now some can argue that the bondings could use further adjustment, that's probably fair. But it's also fair to note that reducing the power without compensating in the loot system would be demoralizing. Dungeons would be harder / take longer and rewards would be the same.
A different suggestion would be to adjust augments to make them work better. I think some of those ideas are kind of cool. There are a couple mechanics differences that would make it difficult for augments to surpass bondings without significant rework (either of the augments or of certain in-game mechanics). But I think this is probably the option that would ruffle the fewest feathers, and there are some quick fixes that are likely not too hard to implement which would help out a bit at least.
I know it likely wasn't easy to admit that the statement was fair, even for those that might not completely agree with it.
Still I also agree it be nice to see slightly better rewards for more mini/boss or bosses in dungeon fights or loot in chests. It saddening to everyone especially when you buy a EPIC key for 5000 refined diamonds to only come out of it with 2000 salvage that you have to refine and nothing else. Why aren't we seeing a least a few more Aqua's, or Sapphires, perhaps even an Opal's or Ruby's, maybe even at rare times a Brilliant Diamond sometimes dropped from the odd chest? Today were lucky if we find but a single Peridoe.
All I'm looking for is to see a little more balance restored to the game. I also believe that is the same thing defiantone99 is looking for as well. Still I urge caution in asking that buff/debuff's get nerfed because many intermediate players have often taken reduced damage to gain them, so you inversely penalize those support classes who give up damage in lieu of the parties. If you Nerf them in part or whole you're going to have more players ask what role is a support class to fulfill? Are we instead going to see a shift to all players simply being pure DPS classes?
I certainly want to see party that works together to achieve goals, just as equally as I'd like to see a variety of companions being summoned, regardless if they are a striker, controller, leader, defender or augments. Again no easy answers...
You said many times "...it does also not attack or gain a 2 for 1 benefit as well.", i will repeat, it doesnt matter that bonding companion attacks and gains those almighty stats you think bcs companion's damage is so low that it doesnt matter, it can be removed totaly, nothing would change.
Elephants are only elephants when they come into t1 and t2 content, which requires 1600 or 2000 IL. Of course they crush everything in there bcs they are by far overgeared for that content. They have almost 4400 IL while that content asks for 2000.
Put those elephants in 3k+ content without buffs and debuffs and you will see that they are not Elephants anymore.
If you dont want best augment providing 151% boost you dont have to get best out of bonding companions either, you dont have to go for 300% you can stay at 200% boost.
Also you misunderstood me, i dont want to nerf buffers/debuffers. I said if you wanted nerfs thats the door you should be knocking on but you shouldnt because more time needed for same bad rewards is not a good trade.
Also Augments and Companions can both be made easily comparable while leveling cause remember all Rare & EPIC companions from the CSTORE include a Rank 7 Lesser Bonding Stone (essentially a Rank 8 benefit) while augments from lockboxes often don't include.
But as you've identified perhaps we should just be happy and not care if Elephants as you say speed running some 2000 dungeons or even the odd Epic 2500 trials, or the odd 2800 challenge if that's what they want to do. It might allow them to grow some of their other characters a little, but maybe it's just best to just leave that one lye and we simple be thankful when we are lucky enough to have that elephant join on us a dungeon run instead.
I can live with that. I'm not demanding 1 less bonding runestone be allowed to trigger it was simply a question; however, can defiantone99 or others that are asking for nerf's to support buff/debuff's also let it slide?
Guardian's, Paladin's and Cleric's can be a combination of tanks, healers, or offer some form of buff but traditionally they are also a long way off the highest damaging classes in the game. Also in the case of a Paladin who can provide up to 25% of his power to other players who are within 30-40 feet, one must first remain within the distance for a whole 6s before it proc's, and then must also pay close attention to staying within to maintain it.
Wizard's can be a combination of damage or control, those taking renegade path do so at a sizeable DPS reduction, for them to gain the buff/debuff's that the party benefits from. I have a friend who has a 3.1k DPS Wizard MoF who is Renegade and she notes her damage is horrible in contrast to others around her gear score. Now perhaps it will increase as she looking to getting a nice Epic companion with Rank 8 Bonding stones in it now after consulting with me yesterday... But still she'll likely be lower than others with comparable gear score because most of the feats are based on buff/debuff not damage increases to her own abilities.
I will agree perhaps with defianteone that perhaps one maybe two cleric's abilities 'could' be slightly reduced as I've always considered myself an objective and fair person who can be reasoned with. Especially after Cleric's finally got a little love with the buff's to other abilities, but caution about going too far with too many other support classes, especially when they've already seen sizeable reductions to damage or protection abilities. Paladin for example took huge nerf's to Devine Justice for the PvP community then again with Devine Protector, just as Cleric's have also been limited to how often they may use AA for Anointed Champions in this case.
(in process of expanding post so please bare with...)
For runs to last longer we would have to get better rewards and seems like they dont like to gives us a higher chance than 0.001% and with that longer runs still bad rewards, its not something people would agree to.
Players taking damage, again a lot would have to be changed. First complete removal of self heals due to LS or insignias in PvE, heals can only come from DC or OP. Our HP pool would have to be increased to take hits are remain alive and some unavoidable aoe damage would have to be added to inflict that damage.
WoW worked like that when i played it (was long ago tho) but WoW had incomparably better reward system compared to NW.
Without limiting bonding by 1 runestone how do we do that.
You could reduce Terrifying Insight base damage which starts at 18% and sure it does extend upwards to 40% to the whole party. Also realize that even a Devine Oracle still today often does 20-30% less damage than other DPS classes including the additional 40% buff they receive. An Anointed Champion does even less as they don't gain that 40% benefit while having even fewer encounters that provide direct offensive attacks, as they have more healing or protection encounters aside from their buff given to party's power given by a paragon at-wills. But their damage is also far lower than a Devine Oracle.
The problem is it's a fine line.
I'd rather let the Elephant have their quick victory especially if people don't want to limit bonding to only two runestone slots and leave it at that.