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Bonding Should be limited to first 2 runestones.
strathkin
Member Posts: 1,798 Arc User
Sure an Augment provides 100% of their power but they also don't attack and gain not a single benefit from any of the gear or enchantments. That clearly makes any Epic or Legendary Companions superior to an augment even with a single bonding stone let alone two. Still I suspect if they were to limit their use a little it simply allow a bit more time for others to contribute.
Issues I currently see with Striker/Controllers/Defenders with 3 R12:
•Both the companion & player gain the benefit of the companions gear enhancing attack powers.
•Epic or Legendary Companions can be outfitted with Gear & Enchantments giving buffs in excess of 11,500+.
→The companion gains these benefits on his 5 attacks, the player gains 95-285% of the 11,500+ regularly.
Still I don't think we'll see any change to the stones themselves despite bonding stones being in a class all their own. Developers often spoke of how Loyal gear was overpowered which today many long time players still have plenty loyal avenger gear equipped on many companions. But if Loyal gear was considered overpowered then who though to giving bonding stones at R12 with 95% augmentation & +840 power or defense boost combined cause Eldritch at R12 provide only a 12% boost if in a defense slot or +700 to armor pen if in a offense slot.
Still I'd think the most we'd expect to see is limiting companions to possibly the first two runestone slots. Still that would provide a 95% - 190% augmentation benefit, whereas an Augment could gain no more than 100 - 136%. To gain the highest benefit the augment would require 3 defense slots loaded with R12 Eldritch, but augments do not also attack with the same buffs if gives to the player.
An Eldritch only provides 12% at R12 and then only does so in defense with no other buff present, unless it's equipped in an offense slot which then provides +700 armor pen but looses the augmentation enhancement. In that case it's an either or not an and.
Ran Valindra's Tower with HR as case and point to the above.
Ran Valindra's Tower 1600 Dungeon:
•3.2k HR with Legendary Artifacts with a R7 Plague Fire Weapon Enchant who has a epic companion with 3x R12 Bondings.
•2.7k CW with Epic Artifacts with R8 Dread Weapon Enchant, Eye of the Storm IV (7s of straight critical hits every 20s) with epic augment.
The Control Wizard even had better gear than the HR with 150 head, 150 armor, 150 arms (survivor's wraps) and similar enchantments. The largest deviation from the Gear Score between the two was the HR had upgraded artifacts to Legendary while the Wizards were close. Still the Wizard had obtained and unlocked every campaign boon in all campaigns except Bryn & River (1 obtained only) but the HR had only completed half as many boons but had acquired 3 R12 bondings stones and nice enchantments for his companion as test.
In in VT the HR did 58m damage (60m to round off) but the Wizard with a Dread R8 enhancing critical hits on encounters by a further 40% and with Eye of the Storm that guarantees 7s of straight critical hits every 20s only did 18m in damage.
So limiting bonding stones on companions to 1 or 2 of the first runestone slots won't make content less playable, it just means the HR in this example takes a little bit longer to kill things, thereby allowing other players damage to increase or from more players to support the party. Even if the HR in this example had limited his companion to two bonding stones he would still have had a sizeable lead in DPS calculation above.
Issues I currently see with Striker/Controllers/Defenders with 3 R12:
•Both the companion & player gain the benefit of the companions gear enhancing attack powers.
•Epic or Legendary Companions can be outfitted with Gear & Enchantments giving buffs in excess of 11,500+.
→The companion gains these benefits on his 5 attacks, the player gains 95-285% of the 11,500+ regularly.
Still I don't think we'll see any change to the stones themselves despite bonding stones being in a class all their own. Developers often spoke of how Loyal gear was overpowered which today many long time players still have plenty loyal avenger gear equipped on many companions. But if Loyal gear was considered overpowered then who though to giving bonding stones at R12 with 95% augmentation & +840 power or defense boost combined cause Eldritch at R12 provide only a 12% boost if in a defense slot or +700 to armor pen if in a offense slot.
Still I'd think the most we'd expect to see is limiting companions to possibly the first two runestone slots. Still that would provide a 95% - 190% augmentation benefit, whereas an Augment could gain no more than 100 - 136%. To gain the highest benefit the augment would require 3 defense slots loaded with R12 Eldritch, but augments do not also attack with the same buffs if gives to the player.
An Eldritch only provides 12% at R12 and then only does so in defense with no other buff present, unless it's equipped in an offense slot which then provides +700 armor pen but looses the augmentation enhancement. In that case it's an either or not an and.
Ran Valindra's Tower with HR as case and point to the above.
Ran Valindra's Tower 1600 Dungeon:
•3.2k HR with Legendary Artifacts with a R7 Plague Fire Weapon Enchant who has a epic companion with 3x R12 Bondings.
•2.7k CW with Epic Artifacts with R8 Dread Weapon Enchant, Eye of the Storm IV (7s of straight critical hits every 20s) with epic augment.
The Control Wizard even had better gear than the HR with 150 head, 150 armor, 150 arms (survivor's wraps) and similar enchantments. The largest deviation from the Gear Score between the two was the HR had upgraded artifacts to Legendary while the Wizards were close. Still the Wizard had obtained and unlocked every campaign boon in all campaigns except Bryn & River (1 obtained only) but the HR had only completed half as many boons but had acquired 3 R12 bondings stones and nice enchantments for his companion as test.
In in VT the HR did 58m damage (60m to round off) but the Wizard with a Dread R8 enhancing critical hits on encounters by a further 40% and with Eye of the Storm that guarantees 7s of straight critical hits every 20s only did 18m in damage.
So limiting bonding stones on companions to 1 or 2 of the first runestone slots won't make content less playable, it just means the HR in this example takes a little bit longer to kill things, thereby allowing other players damage to increase or from more players to support the party. Even if the HR in this example had limited his companion to two bonding stones he would still have had a sizeable lead in DPS calculation above.
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The only power they have is poultry power in the case of the chicken, or similar one if apparatus of gond, ioun stone, goat, cat, or another companion is used. So when using an augment companion with a bonding stone they only gain the +840 power or defense buff given by the stone and never none of the expanded augmentation abilities.
And Legendary artifacts add a lot more over epic than those 150 IL gear add over whatever the HR is wearing.
The HR should also be outright more capable in terms of DPS since you're losing out some major damage sources. It also depends on who's running in first and fast.
And, there nerf posts are getting irritating. The game is now built with bondings as baseline. Without those everything would be like how it was in Mod 6, and would require a massive rework to make stuff playable.
I'm also not talking about a NERF at all. Simply limiting them to the first of two runestone slots, which would still gives 95-190% of the companions buff; while the companion is also benefits from them as well! That alone allows the companion as well as the player to benefit from the same buff and currently boost the player by almost 3x that amount.
An augment comes no where close:
▪ The single augmentation power is not an attack power that triggers bonding proc.
▪ Augments do not gain benefits from their gear/enchantments except to pass them on to players.
▪ They don't benefit themselves while also providing the same buff but at a far higher rate to the player.
No one is talking about nerfing anything! Nor is anyone talking about getting rid of bonding stones either. Limiting them to only the first two runestone slots also does not mean people who have made investments loose the value of those investments. Then can simply equip a few more Epic or Legendary Companions with Bonding stones.
It by no means also won't weaken the companions abilities at all as striker, controller, leader, or defender companions still very powerful allies even with two R12 bonding stones equipped. They'll just need to find a different runestone to slot in the third slot. It still makes most companions far superior to an augment companions given they likely also do noticeable damage as their attacks benefit from the boosts as does the player at an far higher rate.
For now, just remember that an Augment Companion simply augments your stats. That is its only function and purpose, so it quite rightly provides limited benefits. A regular, summoned companion is there to provide help and assistance directly through it's own actions, over which the player has little or no control, so it gives extra benefits to compensate for these drawbacks. This is the way things should be >:)
'In video gaming, a nerf is a change to a game that reduces the power of a weapon or skill.' Limiting or whatever certainly reduces its effectiveness and therefore this is a call for a nerf.
Except the ultra-rich, nobody is gonna equip multiple companions with those, this would lead to a mass sell-off, cause a drastic price reduction leading to quite a loss of value.
The companions don't have any worthwhile abilities in the first place. Check ACT if you want, every companion does <1% of total damage and it ends up being shown as 0%. Only defenders have some use, but they usually have defense slots and also mess with the tank's aggro, so they're a no-no.
Just to improve the competitiveness of 10 augments, shouldn't go around messing with the other 148 companions.
Going to bondings is a natural progression just like going from R7s to R12s.
Whether people like it or not, they're the sole contributor to this.
People running around with companions wearing R12 on runestone and gear offence slots, melting everything on sight is the problem.
The need to be toned down, no question about it,.
I also think that for the sake of openness and clarity you should state your item level and gear - including your companions and what you've equipped them with. Too often these posts are from lower geared players wanting to reduce the gear gap between them and higher players without doing the work themselves.
Stat points come from many places and they are all expensive if you want BiS:
Gear on yourself: ~40k
Legendary companion (with procs): ~27.3k
Stronghold Boons (exc utility & pvp): 16k
Mounts: 8.5k plus 5 bonuses worth a lot more
Other boons: tricky to add but say 9*4*400= 14.4k plus a bunch of situational effects giving somewhere in the region of 20k? So roughly 25k at any one time?
As such it's clear that bonding procs on a fully decked companion equal somewhere in the region of 20% of a players total stats. I don't consider that to be a problem.
If you want to play with an augment that is entirely up to you - if you want to argue that augments should get a buff that's also a reasonable point. But arguing that regular companions should get a bonding nerf simply because you want to run an augment is illogical and unfair to other players that have invested millions of AD.
If you're unhappy getting 100% stats from an augment, request they get some love - please don't try to hit the majority of players just because you are under performing due to your choices/preferences.
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
I still believe they're way overpowered, and btw I'm 3.6K il atm.
You don't have to be low geared to understand that they overperform.
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
I fail to understand why people keep complaining about power-creep. Your power is in your own hands, remove what you don't want, fine tune the difficulty to your taste. There are many people complaining of OP stuff, they can all get together and form a channel and run together the way they want. I ain't being cheesy, this can really be considered. A new channel called 'Ultra_Legends'?
If you're BiS, you're entitled to go through stuff fast, that's why you got there in the first place. If you find it too easy, just get rid of some stuff.
I'm self buffing myself to 61K power at the moment and power creep is not because of the bondings ?
How you run or not run FBI has no connection to this topic nor if bondings are overperforming or not.
I go from 34 flat to 61K power...if that's not overperforming and contributing to the power creep (the key word is power here) , what is?!
How you run your FBI has a perfect connection to the topic. That's an endgame dungeon, this is an endgame discussion, which directly affects the endgame dungeons.
Power creep refers to the overall damage, not how much of the stat 'Power' a toon has.
But too much power is contributing to it no question about it, and too much power comes from stacking bondings and then buffing your team silly from the boost you got from the bonding overload.
I've got enough power at 3.6 iL to solo the Giants BHE in strongholds on a MoF who does moderate damage because he is focused on buffs and debuffs and luckily a MoF's buffs or debuffs have nothing to gain from too much power, I do get the damage I need to solo it from the burst of power I get from bondings and my encounters.
GFs, OP and DC classes do benefit from too much power and bondings make them go over the top.
That's why some people think buffs and debuffs are too strong, take the power scaling out of them and watch those buffs turn to HAMSTER, alternatively, tone down the overload from bondings and you get more balance.
EDIT: 200K power eh ? Well I wonder where the hell they got that from!
I say let the debuffs where they are and jesus christ....200K power per toon is just too much dude....too much and you know where it's coming from
I'm not saying your idea is not a good one but something tells me that it would get implemented terribly and the players would end up suffering. Look at the key change as an example. The drop rate has increased (which is nice) but there are many of us who still have not seen a good +5 ring drop for us.
Anyway my personal opinion on bondings is that the end game dungeons are designed with players at least running 3 rank 10 bondings. If bondings were changed they would have to do something with these dungeons or, as all ready stated, people will just stop running them....
If augments need a buff maybe that is a place to start, i'm not a fan of nerfing stuff, it never seems to work in a players favor. Just ask the dedicated SW players how there class is faring do to all the nerfs starting from mod 6...
I don't quite agree that buff and debuff is broken alone as often much testing is done on the base classes themselves. What sometimes get's omitted from that testing is how bondings change not only the dynamic of DPS but also Support classes. I think lowendus said it correctly that bonding can dramatically change the dynamic. A well geared players with 3 R12 Bondings certainly doesn't even need the buff/debuff's or in fact little if any support of a party in most 1600 and 2000 dungeons. In fact many players have been in a dungeon where their damage is far lower than normal only because one player cleans everything up so fast.
Now realize I'm certainly not complaining as I just enjoy playing the content and being able to progress thru it. But to defiantone99 whom I respect I also understand why he suggests we might require a few more 2500+ dungeons that are perhaps harder. I'd caution against making to many high end 3100+ dungeons because everyone likes to try to progress thru content and perhaps an alternative mechanic could be used.
What about 2500 EPIC dungeons seek 2 Higher Gear Score Players, and 3 who meet minimal requirements?
I wonder if Cryptic could design a dungeon that would seek 2 >3.3k players with 3 coming from >2500 category with the any class being used to fill either tier as long as it had 3 DPS, 1 Tank, 1 Healer present? Perhaps if a person is chosen to fill and In the first tier they are marked as Leaders, then the higher class possibly even earns an accolade title, or if they do it 'x' number of times an alternative accolade or benefit from NPC at dungeon start for supporting the party? Has a dungeon like ever been designed like this so everyone feels like they 'in part' contributed something to the parties success while still growing their character?
Still the discussion over Bondings can't be ignored. The fact is they give more than 5x the value over anything else. It's the only Runestone that gives a dual buff of both 95% bonding & +840 to power/defense. An R12 Eldritch gives only 12% and only if in defense or +700 to Armor Pen if in offense. Augments don't proc bonding stones so their only option is Eldritch to expand their abilities or upgrade to legendary. So the Bonding already provide 2 buff benefits where others get only 1. It then goes to 3 because the companion gains the buff for it's 5 powers as does the player. An augment has no powers to attack so the bonding stone never proc's on augments. This then grow by more than a factor of 5x because the companions buff is further augment by up to 285%. So you with Striker/Controller/Leader/Defender companions your getting more than 5x the value for the enchantments and the equipped gear.
Still I'm not asking they change bonding stones at all, simply asking the question if they should be limit to less, but that still may never even occur. The other alternative option is to make a few more 2500 dungeons which have a two tiered structure so still the vast majority can participate in. Remember this is supposed to be a game where we help and contribute to a party's success while also trying to limit how much exclusive content is available but to only the privileged few. Let's try to find a solution that finds the middle ground.
You ask for a direct nerf to their usage, though not as bad as other ideas before you. What privileged few ?? We were doing those t1,t2 dungeons long before bonding. These posts are repetitive and tiresome.
There is nothing exclusive, more so, as of now, bondings do not count towards your item level so what exclusive ? what privileged?
Lets try to find a solution to simple not so truthful posts ? So at the end the issue is not if people can do content or enter it, but the epeengiver chart ? So lets cut the HAMSTERS. And stop the "I don't have bondings, so lets nerf other people stuff"
It's irrelevant if bondings give 2.85 times the stats or 5 times. It's the gear progress in the game. Same way you progress with your weapon enchantment, armor enchantment, gear, campaigns and all the rest.
It's up to the content to be balanced around the available gear and the power it provides. With the gear progress in mind.
Or you suggest just remove everyone's gear, because obviously someone that started yesterday doesn't have it. And also nerf all the dungeons to 0 requirements, because well, we can't have any limits on that, can we.. and now everything is perfect. Unfortunately, MMOs need progress, even tetris and packman had have level.... Or no one will play those, so lets stop trying to kill the game... please..
Nothing else give allows you to get >5x the benefit of the enchantments & gear slotted. Your companion first gain's all the benefits for his own attack powers, you then gain up to 285% of his benefit as well, mean while theirs the potential for your entire party to also be extended the 285% benefit... This also does not include the fact it's the only runestone with the double the benefit regardless if in offense or defense, as you gain +840 power/defense in addition to the 95% augmentation boost.
I'm not suggesting you remove gear or reducing dungeon requirements to 0.
Please try to be civil and look at this from all points of view as I have. Above I suggested one alternative to possibly introducing a 2500 dungeon that has two tiers one made up of >3.3 gear score players and the rest 2500. Limiting the amount of bonding stones to 1 less per companion won't impair your gear score when your gear score is comprised of the quality of all active companions, gear, and enchantments they have equipped when May 2nd rolls around.
If you only currently have one companion with Epic Gear and R12's Bondings + R12 Enchantments your gear score in future will comprise of the quality, gear and enchantments for all active companions.