LIFE steal stat in module 6 reworked because developers didnt want to be a primary defensive stat. AFTer 5 modules i see that stat bad for the game because actually is a primary defensive stat and what does is :
1. KIlls the role of leader class want to go fulll heal( they dont need to do it). 2. Make the gameplay more smashing buttons than play your class with thought. ON 30% lifesteal chance and even lower is like to have permanent lifesteal or i need to mention and the companion with the 75% life steal chance( even if it has chance to proc) 3. THE most ridiculous is to see 1 million life back number. From zero to hero. 4. More carefull gameplay . EXample i have defender on my party to do what the buff bot? IF you remove lifesteal a dps will be more carefull how attacking the mobs.
I believe the best for the game is to remove the lifesteal and also at the same time remove the ridiculous one shots in some dungeons. MAKe damage resistance necessary AND REmove the one shots from the game. IF you have enough dr you can get less damage and some deflection even better.
WITH above we will appreciate more the controling-healing-defending.
THANKS.
Mod 5 yes, players used Life steal as primary def stat. Mod 6 < due changes in life steal = warlock holocaust. But from other side. killed glasscanon setups. Stronghold introduction= reintroduce glasscanon builds, + even extend them. So not life steal is bad, but stronghold boons. If you look now, players build up arp focused gear, and power get from Stronghold boon. Players get ~6k def and pick 10k life steal boon from stronghold.
Now remove stronghold boons, and try accumulate 8k life steal. Even if you reach that, you had to give up other stats.
If we reduce life steal = low players lose any chances to complete even low tear dungeons.. High end players would not felt any changes..
======================================================================== “The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim. Gustave Le Bon. ==================================================
I would be okay with removing lifesteal, but not before boss/mob attacks get changed.
Currently, the issue is that lifesteal essentially keeps you at full HP as long as you aren't oneshotted.
So, you would need to rework enemy attacks so healers have time to react and heal their teammates.
Allow to me suggest a simpler solution: Increase player HP.
The root cause of the problem is that power and damage scales up more than player HP. As a player gains gear, Lifesteal is capable of replenishing their entire health bar in a shorter amount of time. Eventually we get to the point where we are now: Because a player can refill their entire health in a few seconds with lifesteal alone, enemy damage has to approach their entire health to so much as threaten them.
Imagine for a second if players had, say 10 times as much health, but lifesteal severity was reduced. No one gets one-shot any more, instead, your health drops... and doesn't go back up instantly. A skilled DPS would be able to dodge, and slowly regain their health, but the tank at least would need a healer to fill them back up to keep tanking hits from the boss. On the flip side, healing is not just a matter of casting one spell to restore everyone to full health, that 100K heal is now less than 10% of the tank's HP.
The end result is that the game is more fun for everyone: No one gets one-shot by everything. DPS can choose to take risks when they're at full HP, but back off and play safe when their HP starts dropping. And healers would have time to react to incoming damage and apply healing where it's needed.
I don't mean for this to be the be-all, end-all solution of course, just throwing the idea out there.
Another good solution would be, if people are sick of one shots, to remove them then but every single pve enemy in the game would have creeping death-like or rather, manticore-like very strong poison/(insert word here) dots with all of their attacks that would never (except maybe horribly undergeared players) one shot an average + player but, just like FBI's first boss, if you don't take care of it, you'd get killed within a few seconds, that would give the dc/healadin/templock enough time to react and save the affected teammate. The dot would stack and lifesteal severity would be around 40% maximun and it wouln't be poossible to increase that with boons/items, max lifesteal chance would be capped to 10% - 15%. The dot obviously would have a massive difference between solo content (like daylies) and group (epic dungeons/skirmishes/trials) content so anyone decently geared or better can still do stuff solo but in no way, shape or form can go Rambo and lifesteal through everything, rendering healers worthless. Dots would be short lasting in solo content and medium/long lasting on epic content depending on which enemy applied it. Oh and enemies would attack more often than they do now, too! I think it is a good idea because:
1. People who get hit will survive (if enough DR and HP) but! 2. If just staying on red zones and not bothering to dodge or learn game mechanics, stacked dots would obliterate that person no matter what. 3. Healers are now needed.
1
mamalion1234Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,415Arc User
Another good solution would be, if people are sick of one shots, to remove them then but every single pve enemy in the game would have creeping death-like or rather, manticore-like very strong poison/(insert word here) dots with all of their attacks that would never (except maybe horribly undergeared players) one shot an average + player but, just like FBI's first boss, if you don't take care of it, you'd get killed within a few seconds, that would give the dc/healadin/templock enough time to react and save the affected teammate. The dot would stack and lifesteal severity would be around 40% maximun and it wouln't be poossible to increase that with boons/items, max lifesteal chance would be capped to 10% - 15%. The dot obviously would have a massive difference between solo content (like daylies) and group (epic dungeons/skirmishes/trials) content so anyone decently geared or better can still do stuff solo but in no way, shape or form can go Rambo and lifesteal through everything, rendering healers worthless. Dots would be short lasting in solo content and medium/long lasting on epic content depending on which enemy applied it. Oh and enemies would attack more often than they do now, too! I think it is a good idea because:
1. People who get hit will survive (if enough DR and HP) but! 2. If just staying on red zones and not bothering to dodge or learn game mechanics, stacked dots would obliterate that person no matter what. 3. Healers are now needed.
I LIke this idea.Player should get reward and from how is playing not only from the gear.
Lifesteal is a necrotic ability and 'should' only be available to warlocks (arguably for CWs too?) but Cryptic have taken it so far down the path with the current meta, practically designing dungeon mechanics around the concept, that I think they would have a really rough time if they attempted to back-peddle now.
They'd have to rebalance practically everything; classes, enchantments, boons, dungeons...
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Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
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Gosti Big Belly: GWF
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Lt. Thackeray: HR
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I don't play DC any more but going with your proposal Remove Life Steal .. Remove Self Healing Mount Powers .. nerf this nerf that
ok 1st DC are Linear mechanic Healers and that is hard so imagine the life of DC trying to do that without a mechanic helping he would literally be going bonkers asking teammates not to scatter especially HRs
I used to play DC in mod 3-4 and just being Faithful Bot is not Fun and not intuitive
For OP Devotion it is literally an at-will as far as i know and works like a circular network mash topolgy which is internesting so less work and better results
we had our guild leader who is 4.3k DC get over healed by 3.2k Paladin like 8 millions at mSVA in heals which is ok because Devotion paladins don't buff as much as DC do however DC don't heal as much so there is a trade off
Now For DPS classes when you say remove Mount Bonuses Self healing okay i will agree because it is not necessary and makes PVP unblanaced we can come to middle grounds here and many would say yes
However Lifesteal is a stat many invested enchants and gear you can look at every light armor class such as SW & CW and you will see them having it because it is a defensive stat they pick over their damage resistance to keep them alive ... so you just can not come and say nerf this nerf that
especially with the way it is with how hard mobs by that i mean mobs filling every map not bosses the fact bosses can almost one shot is justified
geez just imagine getting almost dead from one hit by mob and there is no lifesteal, stones of health has ICD and sometimes they bugg and don't give healing as well as there are many times healers are not attentive
So in other words WIPES on simple dungeons just to make healdins wanted in dungeon runs .. that is what you are literally asking for
BTW my main is CW and alt is paladin tank so with loadouts coming i would benefit having lifesteal removed as for what you asked simply by switching to devotion paladin in fact that makes my paladin more valuable but that is just ridiculous nerf thread in my opinion and i don't support it
Remove LS? How would GWF's and SW's even play pvp without it? Thats one of the craziest ideas ive ever heard of.
Find me in game if you want and send me a domination/ gaunt invite. If you are good and im not busy ill play with you. Im not an elitist ill play with almost anyone.
Well, if they tone down GF and DC damage and make them once again support classes, I would agree. But, DCs and GFs can be immortal DPS machines. DPS classes should be able to survive without them. Heck, you can run all content without DPS classes at all.
They will need to risk to go full damage without lifesteal. maybe if dont play it correctly they will die. LIfesteal contribute to deal massive damage for any class it even allow you to stand on floor with dot damage.
That is not even true. GFs and OPs can stack DR much easier and get 95% DR and be nearly immune to damage. Of course in PVP, all healing needs to be toned down through depression, but in PVE, self-healing is fine as it is. I do not see where you are coming from, except that you want to remove solo play from the game and make DPS classes have to team up with Devo Paladins at all times just to do dailies.
potions is an option poeple rarely or do not use .
potions don't do enough. they give like less than a tick of health. honestly I'd quit this game if they messed with lifesteal. there aren't a lot of things I'd say that over but it would KILL solo play. And the stat is in everything. they'd totally mess up the balance in A TRILLION parts of this game if they took it out or messed with it. it's also something people have spent time and money on. so I don't think I'd be the only one leaving in a huff. if they want to lose a good portion of the player base messing with lifesteal is one way to go...
Well, I do not think most "healers" want to heal. They go for DPS, even Devo Paladins are in it for DPS. The heal ship sailed long ago. There are de/buffers who get a thrill from speedrunning and Paingiver chasers who like to play support classes as DPS cuz it is cheesy. Support players are very rare now. Even if healing was brought back, you are going to have a hard time finding somebody willing to heal you.
You've apparently never interacted with any players who chose a DC or DevOP or Templock because of how desperately they enjoy healing in an MMO and how heartbroken they are that their preferred role is viewed as unnecessary and it's buff or DPS or GTFO.
Players very much want to heal, but they often find themselves excluded if that's all they have to offer. That's not by choice, it's imposed by meta.
yes there are a FEW out there like that but they are totally in the minority.
Well, I do not think most "healers" want to heal. They go for DPS, even Devo Paladins are in it for DPS. The heal ship sailed long ago. There are de/buffers who get a thrill from speedrunning and Paingiver chasers who like to play support classes as DPS cuz it is cheesy. Support players are very rare now. Even if healing was brought back, you are going to have a hard time finding somebody willing to heal you.
You've apparently never interacted with any players who chose a DC or DevOP or Templock because of how desperately they enjoy healing in an MMO and how heartbroken they are that their preferred role is viewed as unnecessary and it's buff or DPS or GTFO.
Players very much want to heal, but they often find themselves excluded if that's all they have to offer. That's not by choice, it's imposed by meta.
yes there are a FEW out there like that but they are totally in the minority.
I don't think it's as few as you might think. I am disappointing every time I cast a heal and don't see a single green number pop up. It just cements your worthlessness as a healer every time you cast a heal and see it do literally nothing.
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2
ghoulz66Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,748Arc User
Stop complaining about healing. You still provide the role of preventing people from being killed in one hit.
How about we remove Damage Resistance, remember mod 6? It was kinda fun. That is my proposal, remove damage resist and leave LS alone.
I could get behind that. Though we need to be honest, lifesteal is really only a problem for us healers, negating our importance, but its far from only source of self-healing in this game (Drowned set, Drowcraft shirt and trousers, Engine inspiration boon, mount insignias just to name a few). Not everyone has those, however, and I suspect not every player who mains as either a Cleric, Healadin, or Warlock is going to appreciate being pressed into service to back up the deeps as they run whatever dailies they have to do outside of dungeons. So lifesteal should stay as is. I think, if the intention is to balance it out a bit (and give healers a more active role), that @jaime4312's suggestion of replacing the one-shots with a hideous dot would smart one, necessiting that the player would have to see to it immediately or in the very near future or risk a dirt nap. Boy it would be nice if all these mechanics, boons, abilities and equipment were tested and their implications for game balance reviewed before they went live. Might cut the number of discussion topics in the forums by half. Oh f*ck, who am I kidding.
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1
treesclimberMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,161Arc User
edited April 2017
Honestly i don't think it would take much to achieve a good balance, from my experience pugging in the biggies 3,1k dungeons a tone down of around 15 to 20% of enemies damage would purchase a lot more time for healers to react.
Previously i wrote some LS change values and amounts, taking a better look at it, i must have been at least mildly drunk, even admitting it was a bad math, those values are definitively too low, after properly thinking about them:
SW: 10% CW: 9% TR: 8% GWF:6% GF: 6% DC: 3% OP: 3%
Life steal chance from TOD boon: 12/15/18% Life steal amount granted from life steal severity stat: Each point above 100% / 10, so supposing now it means 120% LS severity, changed to 2% life steal amount; And respectively from EF set: 10% life steal amount for 10 seconds every 30 seconds. Endless consumption: 1% LS amount, 10% LS chance.
Now imagine the following GWF:
First sure strike swing with current buffs: 80 000 IBS:--------------------------------480k Restoring strike:---------------------320 k Restoring strike heal:------Damage/2 = 160k LS chance:---------------------------70% LS amount:--------------------------9% HP amount:--------------------------140k
A single swing of the first sure strike would have a 70% the chance to heal for at least 7,2k this value would then be multiplied by ToD boon, incoming healing bonus stat, regeneration and possibly a negation enchant, so at max we could expect up to 9900, at this point you may be saying "haha 9900, that wont do much", well it's supposed to, i will get to it.
Adding that heal to the next 2 strikes combined would give the gwf something like 32k hp, if you consider the cast time of 3 sure strikes, it's not that bad, now IBS is ready gwf uses that IBS (6x more damage), healing himself for 43,2k, and you keep thinking, "between those sure strikes and IBS i have a lot of HP missing so i can get hit again by other monster", and there is the point where i want to get, it makes sure that gwf needs a exterior healing source, no mater where from, being life steal the helpful component.
Now suppose that same GWF decided to use restoring strike instead IBS, the amount healed would be 160k+ 28,8k, that would fully heal the gwf(taking a look at sentinel cap feat this would even open a door to put LS appart if the damage of sentinel was minimally decent xD) which is supposed because it deals less damage and has a healing component, insignias such as vampire's craving would start to make sense out of pvp. 1 more detail, by now some people may be thinking "these values are too small", i took in consideration no weapon enchantment because of the flaming dot/bilethorn provoking a secondary life steal effect, so if one doesn't work non should. LS doesn't need to be annihilated, simply reworked and no i dont thing increasing HP game wide is a good idea, look at the damage values above, multiply by 3, that's endless consumption proc, multiply by 2, that's SKT set with LS granted, it would just make sure only endgame would have it as viable.
Despite guilds and raids, this is primarily a solo game. Tanks and healers can survive fine solo, DPS classes can't. That is why they stack lifesteal. The game has always been this way. Before mod 6 it was regeneration AND lifesteal. Now we have insignias and lifesteal, the dusk set and other healing items. They are here to allow DPS classes to not have to carry pocket healers while doing dailies. Tanks and healers in no way need DPS classes for dailies, making DPS classes need tanks and healers to do dailies is just silly. Powercreep on players and one-shots from enemies are a problem, I am sure in a WHOLE system rework they may rework stats like LS and HP. But, they will not remove them. Some players like rolling solo, thank you very much.....
yes but all of those affects the party content should be a solution.
demonmongerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,350Arc User
The new epic dungeon is one place even High lifesteal can't save you. I am totally against any changes to lifesteal if you are talking about nerfs.. or buffs..
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treesclimberMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,161Arc User
And community is against a good change again like bondings, someone please tell me why do i still care? Seriously, tell me because i dont know.
Yes, nerf bondings and lifesteal. What do you want to nerf next? Then it will be healing, then the Orcus set, then AP gain, what else? Maybe potions and Soulforged? It never ends.....
In party content for players with our ILs, enemies die too fast for heals or lifesteal to even matter. In the end, you would only hurt low level players and soloists. Damage mitigation in a high IL team from DCs, OPs and GFs prevents any damage being taken by the party. I never have to use a potion in some runs. That is why everybody screamed about the Unstoppable bug, we could not take damage. So, I have no idea what you are getting at.
AT least it will give them the opportunity to learn their class mechanisms. WHO get hurt everyday is exactly that low player get carried through content with the ready stats from the stronghold boons. I mean they can ignore and campaigns and play the content and burn soulforge because they dont know how even you avoid an attack or even worse what does the power on the bar. INSTANT leveling + the current near to be immortal bring more bad players and more money for cryptic.
Comments
Mod 6 < due changes in life steal = warlock holocaust. But from other side. killed glasscanon setups.
Stronghold introduction= reintroduce glasscanon builds, + even extend them.
So not life steal is bad, but stronghold boons.
If you look now, players build up arp focused gear, and power get from Stronghold boon.
Players get ~6k def and pick 10k life steal boon from stronghold.
Now remove stronghold boons, and try accumulate 8k life steal. Even if you reach that, you had to give up other stats.
If we reduce life steal = low players lose any chances to complete even low tear dungeons.. High end players would not felt any changes..
“The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
Gustave Le Bon.
==================================================
The root cause of the problem is that power and damage scales up more than player HP. As a player gains gear, Lifesteal is capable of replenishing their entire health bar in a shorter amount of time. Eventually we get to the point where we are now: Because a player can refill their entire health in a few seconds with lifesteal alone, enemy damage has to approach their entire health to so much as threaten them.
Imagine for a second if players had, say 10 times as much health, but lifesteal severity was reduced. No one gets one-shot any more, instead, your health drops... and doesn't go back up instantly. A skilled DPS would be able to dodge, and slowly regain their health, but the tank at least would need a healer to fill them back up to keep tanking hits from the boss. On the flip side, healing is not just a matter of casting one spell to restore everyone to full health, that 100K heal is now less than 10% of the tank's HP.
The end result is that the game is more fun for everyone: No one gets one-shot by everything. DPS can choose to take risks when they're at full HP, but back off and play safe when their HP starts dropping. And healers would have time to react to incoming damage and apply healing where it's needed.
I don't mean for this to be the be-all, end-all solution of course, just throwing the idea out there.
I might reduce the damage resistance from tenacity to balance it out, that should help balance piercing damage as well, but I'm not an expert on PVP.
1. People who get hit will survive (if enough DR and HP) but!
2. If just staying on red zones and not bothering to dodge or learn game mechanics, stacked dots would obliterate that person no matter what.
3. Healers are now needed.
They'd have to rebalance practically everything; classes, enchantments, boons, dungeons...
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
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ok 1st DC are Linear mechanic Healers and that is hard so imagine the life of DC trying to do that without a mechanic helping he would literally be going bonkers asking teammates not to scatter especially HRs
I used to play DC in mod 3-4 and just being Faithful Bot is not Fun and not intuitive
For OP Devotion it is literally an at-will as far as i know and works like a circular network mash topolgy which is internesting so less work and better results
we had our guild leader who is 4.3k DC get over healed by 3.2k Paladin like 8 millions at mSVA in heals which is ok because Devotion paladins don't buff as much as DC do however DC don't heal as much so there is a trade off
Now For DPS classes when you say remove Mount Bonuses Self healing okay i will agree because it is not necessary and makes PVP unblanaced we can come to middle grounds here and many would say yes
However Lifesteal is a stat many invested enchants and gear you can look at every light armor class such as SW & CW and you will see them having it because it is a defensive stat they pick over their damage resistance to keep them alive ... so you just can not come and say nerf this nerf that
especially with the way it is with how hard mobs by that i mean mobs filling every map not bosses the fact bosses can almost one shot is justified
geez just imagine getting almost dead from one hit by mob and there is no lifesteal, stones of health has ICD and sometimes they bugg and don't give healing as well as there are many times healers are not attentive
So in other words WIPES on simple dungeons just to make healdins wanted in dungeon runs .. that is what you are literally asking for
BTW my main is CW and alt is paladin tank so with loadouts coming i would benefit having lifesteal removed as for what you asked simply by switching to devotion paladin in fact that makes my paladin more valuable but that is just ridiculous nerf thread in my opinion and i don't support it
I'm sick of people asking for needs... (bring out death angel war toolz)
yes there are a FEW out there like that but they are totally in the minority.
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Previously i wrote some LS change values and amounts, taking a better look at it, i must have been at least mildly drunk, even admitting it was a bad math, those values are definitively too low, after properly thinking about them:
SW: 10%
CW: 9%
TR: 8%
GWF:6%
GF: 6%
DC: 3%
OP: 3%
Life steal chance from TOD boon:
12/15/18%
Life steal amount granted from life steal severity stat:
Each point above 100% / 10, so supposing now it means 120% LS severity, changed to 2% life steal amount;
And respectively from EF set: 10% life steal amount for 10 seconds every 30 seconds.
Endless consumption: 1% LS amount, 10% LS chance.
Now imagine the following GWF:
First sure strike swing with current buffs: 80 000
IBS:--------------------------------480k
Restoring strike:---------------------320 k
Restoring strike heal:------Damage/2 = 160k
LS chance:---------------------------70%
LS amount:--------------------------9%
HP amount:--------------------------140k
A single swing of the first sure strike would have a 70% the chance to heal for at least 7,2k this value would then be multiplied by ToD boon, incoming healing bonus stat, regeneration and possibly a negation enchant, so at max we could expect up to 9900, at this point you may be saying "haha 9900, that wont do much", well it's supposed to, i will get to it.
Adding that heal to the next 2 strikes combined would give the gwf something like 32k hp, if you consider the cast time of 3 sure strikes, it's not that bad, now IBS is ready gwf uses that IBS (6x more damage), healing himself for 43,2k, and you keep thinking, "between those sure strikes and IBS i have a lot of HP missing so i can get hit again by other monster", and there is the point where i want to get, it makes sure that gwf needs a exterior healing source, no mater where from, being life steal the helpful component.
Now suppose that same GWF decided to use restoring strike instead IBS, the amount healed would be 160k+ 28,8k, that would fully heal the gwf(taking a look at sentinel cap feat this would even open a door to put LS appart if the damage of sentinel was minimally decent xD) which is supposed because it deals less damage and has a healing component, insignias such as vampire's craving would start to make sense out of pvp. 1 more detail, by now some people may be thinking "these values are too small", i took in consideration no weapon enchantment because of the flaming dot/bilethorn provoking a secondary life steal effect, so if one doesn't work non should. LS doesn't need to be annihilated, simply reworked and no i dont thing increasing HP game wide is a good idea, look at the damage values above, multiply by 3, that's endless consumption proc, multiply by 2, that's SKT set with LS granted, it would just make sure only endgame would have it as viable.