I'm surprised no mention of T. Feytouched. Boosts your DPS for more Templar's/Courage damage and suprerior debuffing capabilities to Bronzewood ( Feytouched has 15% from hitting things, 15% from the Trans AoE, debuff potential is around ~28%).
I'm surprised you didn't mention the combo of Absolution, Sanctuary, and Circle of Power. Those 3 powers alone put your teammates at the effective DR cap (50% + 20% + 25% = 95%). Drop Circle of Power, put Absolution on everyone, and run up and hold Sanctuary when you expect your teammates to get hit. While it is true that Absolution's DR buff only lasts for however long the shield's duration is, you could always drop Absolution on everyone before the fight and swap out to a more useful power like Bane (I'm the weirdo who micromanages Absolution, sue me).
Yeti active bonus is bugged, because, you know, programming issues.
I'm surprised there's no mention of the Sellsword, Con Artist, or Rebel Merc as Bonding comps. Blah blah Debuff blah blah easy to get.
I'm personally against not using Courage/Wisdom, as Courage is essentially a team wide Storm Spell, and Wisdom is independent of Recovery (meaning no matter how much Recovery someone stacks, Wisdom will make a profound impact on their cooldowns). Courage itself scales with buffs and debuffs, so you can see hits of hundreds of thousands in the right situations.
But overall, like the build. Keep up the good work, we need more Paladin tanks realizing "yes, Tankadin is a solid tank as long as you're trying".
I have been wanting to evaluate a T.Fey for this build as well, as the secondary focus is debuffing. The damage side would be nice little addition as well. As I had just switched over to a new PC, I am hoping to have this build updated with what I am currently running. Traded out two comps for Slyph and Will-O-Wisp for the Control Resist, updated to T.Barkshield for an amazing addition to not taking damage. Moving some Offensives to Azure's as the crit from TW has more utility than Tenebrous for the tanking side. Moved to T.Plaguefire for the debuff, with the understanding that T.Fey has more potential. After today's patch (changes to Aura of Truth and Radiance), I will be re-testing the debuffing.
Previously, tough bosses (Orcus) has not been able to even touch my actual HP with the rotation I use. Much like you, I do use Absolution before going in so that the rest of the group has something more than their own Hp to survive on . My boss rotation is Bane (Rank 4), TW (Rank 4) and Binding Oath (Rank 3). While BO is temporary, it does provide a decent shield and does not always get eaten up by damage. His hits on me after all my debuffs are on him are around 20-50k (I think this would be lower after todays patch, and willing to find out after work.)
For this build, I use the augmentation for now for the up-time. I am hearing (again, just hearsay) that the Paranoid Delusion is a viable bonding companion. I am always open to suggestions on this as I have yet to run a bonding.
Class features is the situational area. For trash mobs and certain places, Courage/Wisdom is what I run. Certain bosses, I run a hybrid Courage/Truth. The really tough ones I run Protection and Truth. This is done to maximize the amount of def the whole team had and how much debuffing can be done to all things in the area.
I would be curious to see how a T.Fey would work with TW and Blinding Light (as per the tooltip, it deals 18% and takes away 18% from your target). I would understand if you only gained 18%, but would the debuff be 18% be for all that were hit?
As always, I am open to any suggestions. My goal is to give the OP community new hope on being a tanking class again. I would love to encourage the development team to revisit the Bulwark path. I think there were some really good ideas in there, but it did not scale with the times. Let's make Oathbound Paladin's great again.
[Combat (Self)] Orcus gives 0 (446273) Physical Damage to you with Wand Bash. [Combat (Self)] Orcus gives 0 (514415) Physical Damage to you with Bash. [Combat (Self)] Orcus gives 0 (521299) Physical Damage to you with Bash. [Combat (Self)] Orcus gives 0 (555505) Physical Damage to you with Wand Sweep. [Combat (Self)] Orcus deals 64883 (648828) Physical Damage to you with Wand Bash.
I would be curious to see how a T.Fey would work with TW and Blinding Light (as per the tooltip, it deals 18% and takes away 18% from your target). I would understand if you only gained 18%, but would the debuff be 18% be for all that were hit?
This is something I am wondering, I have been able to test only Lesser version while still on Dev OP and the enchantment effect was only proccing from 4 encounters - Smite, TW, DT and RA. I have no idea if that changes with higher ranks or if it was changed in later patches or the additional debuff from Trans procs it differently. On trans there are 2 damage debuffs - 15% and 15% AoE.
Tonight I changed from the T.Plague Fire to T.Fey. Here is the results from the Orcus fight with the Fey. Overall, I did like the feeling and half way thru the fight the DC did go down. The changes to Aura of Truth seem to be impacting, but something still felt a little off during the fight.
[Combat (Self)] Orcus gives 0 (446273) Physical Damage to you with Wand Bash. [Combat (Self)] Orcus gives 0 (514415) Physical Damage to you with Bash. [Combat (Self)] Orcus gives 0 (521299) Physical Damage to you with Bash. [Combat (Self)] Orcus gives 0 (555505) Physical Damage to you with Wand Sweep. [Combat (Self)] Orcus deals 64883 (648828) Physical Damage to you with Wand Bash.
Tonight I changed from the T.Plague Fire to T.Fey. Here is the results from the Orcus fight with the Fey. Overall, I did like the feeling and half way thru the fight the DC did go down. The changes to Aura of Truth seem to be impacting, but something still felt a little off during the fight.
Based upon your comments earlier today (20-50K hits from Orcus) and your switch to Trans FeyT and the (supposed) changes to AoTruth, it seems like Orcus did more damage than would be expected on a lot of those hits. You still mitigated a LOT of damage, however. How does it look compared to some of your other CN runs? Not sure if TransFey debuffs before or after other debuffs....anyone have any idea on that? (I would of thought the Orcus hits would of been in the 15-40K range if you were being hit for 20-50K earlier--roughly 20% less than before 15% from Feytouched and another 5ish from AoTruth changes).
From what I understand it'd go something like Fey - Bane - SoF - DR, which would mean 100% - 18% - 30% - 30% - 80% so on an initial 800k strike you'd get hit with about 64k damage.
Edit - forgot AoT which should bring the total dmg received down to 56k'ish.
Post edited by armadeonx on
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That's what I thought as well, however the numbers are not matching up to what I had previously saw. With that being said, the image does show the minimum damage was 0. In there, there were hits in the 20k+. I will be running him again tonight, in hopes to actually capture some of these very low damaging hits (maybe if I run with a Devo rather than an AA DC).
Below is a full list of things I have that debuff:
Rust Monster - Max 15% Bane - 30% (lasts fairly long @ Rank 4) Aura of Truth - 12.5% T.Fey - (is this 15% + 15% ?? or 18% as per the tooltip, I go with the less for the sake of hitting a minimum) 18% Martyr's Blood - 10% Chicken - (Was not used last night, but does provide a 10% when 25%+ of your hp in damage is done to you).
This total comes up to 85.5% Max debuffing (not taking my question on T.Fey into considering, otherwise i'd be 97.5%)
Overall, I still feel Fey did pretty well overall as I had more temp HP to stand on. This was the first time that no healing was available for a good portion of the fight (greater than 50% of the fight it was just a TR and myself as a duo). I have the gear for FBI now and will be attempting it over the weekend with some guild members.
I am also evaluating the Bulwark spec as a whole. Some things have occurred to me where going Bulwark might be better as a tank. I plan on testing these changes on Mimic first (maybe go into something like Cold Run and let the giants beat on me for a while).
[Combat (Self)] Orcus gives 0 (446273) Physical Damage to you with Wand Bash. [Combat (Self)] Orcus gives 0 (514415) Physical Damage to you with Bash. [Combat (Self)] Orcus gives 0 (521299) Physical Damage to you with Bash. [Combat (Self)] Orcus gives 0 (555505) Physical Damage to you with Wand Sweep. [Combat (Self)] Orcus deals 64883 (648828) Physical Damage to you with Wand Bash.
That's what I thought as well, however the numbers are not matching up to what I had previously saw. With that being said, the image does show the minimum damage was 0. In there, there were hits in the 20k+. I will be running him again tonight, in hopes to actually capture some of these very low damaging hits (maybe if I run with a Devo rather than an AA DC).
Below is a full list of things I have that debuff:
Rust Monster - Max 15% Bane - 30% (lasts fairly long @ Rank 4) Aura of Truth - 12.5% T.Fey - (is this 15% + 15% ?? or 18% as per the tooltip, I go with the less for the sake of hitting a minimum) 18% Martyr's Blood - 10% Chicken - (Was not used last night, but does provide a 10% when 25%+ of your hp in damage is done to you).
This total comes up to 85.5% Max debuffing (not taking my question on T.Fey into considering, otherwise i'd be 97.5%)
Overall, I still feel Fey did pretty well overall as I had more temp HP to stand on. This was the first time that no healing was available for a good portion of the fight (greater than 50% of the fight it was just a TR and myself as a duo). I have the gear for FBI now and will be attempting it over the weekend with some guild members.
I am also evaluating the Bulwark spec as a whole. Some things have occurred to me where going Bulwark might be better as a tank. I plan on testing these changes on Mimic first (maybe go into something like Cold Run and let the giants beat on me for a while).
How did you come up with those numbers? You can't just add them, this is not how this work.
Bane - 30% (3 stacks) Rust Monster - 14.26% (3 stacks) Aura of Truth - 12.5% Martyr's Blood - 10% Trans Feytouched - 15% Trans Feytouched AoE - 15% Chicken - 10%
You forgot to add personal DR which you'd assume is 80% so that'd make it ~93.85% negated.
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I believe the formula you are using is the DR or Defense debuff one from Kaelics, in which is also credited in Sharpedge's last update. The debuffs in question are damage debuffs. If you could provide a source of this formula, then we could run the numbers accurately.
http://imgur.com/3b8EWgk - This is why I question the Trans Fey. Clearly states 18%. I understand tooltips could be wrong, or their intent was 18% but currently provided something else.
I was not including my personal DR in any of this because my focus right now is testing the damage debuffing abilities of our class.
The point of this is to provide more survival for our group members by lowering the potential amount of damage that could be done by anything in the area (I have tested a Radiant Strike and the Fey does affect all, but you still get one buff in which I expect that to be). AoT and anything that hits me could be affected by Martyer's Blood and Rust from the Rust Monster.
[Combat (Self)] Orcus gives 0 (446273) Physical Damage to you with Wand Bash. [Combat (Self)] Orcus gives 0 (514415) Physical Damage to you with Bash. [Combat (Self)] Orcus gives 0 (521299) Physical Damage to you with Bash. [Combat (Self)] Orcus gives 0 (555505) Physical Damage to you with Wand Sweep. [Combat (Self)] Orcus deals 64883 (648828) Physical Damage to you with Wand Bash.
I took 1 as initial damage for easier calculations, [] is the final damage after debuffs. In this case with these debuffs damage was lowered from 1 to 0.3073, so by 69.27%. I didn't include DR as it's not a part of damage debuffs.
I used the same calculation and also came to 69.27% then minused 80% from the net damage to show total damage received.
What we forgot to include was SoF which would take it down to 95.7% for the Pally and 81.71% for any DPS with 30% DR (therefore 15% in boss fights due to 15% enemy RI) and at 50% for a typical GWF puts them at 86.02%
Just for clarity, I'm placing personal shields and DR after debuffs to enemy damage output.
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Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Feytouched is technically a ~28% damage debuff, assuming you combine the AoE and the actual debuff into one "total" debuff.
The AoE is worth 15%, the debuff itself 15%.
100 * (1 - 0.85) * (0.85) 100 * (0.15) * (0.15) 72.25 (this is the effectiveness of the damage, assuming you're applying a T. Feytouched to target, you aren't accounting for DR, and nobody else is applying any damage debuffs or mitigation sources).
100 -72.25 = 27.75% exact, but because we're lazy mathamticians, we'll round it up to 28%.
Numbers from Michela's damage debuff spreadsheet blah blah all of the work was done by her except for the above algebra.
The interesting point to me is that as you add more debuffs to enemy damage, the effectiveness of each debuff reduces.
By that I mean for example; aura of truth 12.5% - from an 800k strike it will minus 100k. Feytouched will reduce the same strike by 224k (28%) but when you combine the two you get a debuff of 37% or 296k.
The thing to take from this is that the more debuff sources you add, the less effective all of the resources become. When you add AoT to a debuff list already including FeyT, Bane, SoF, the above companions and then put your DR on top, the total extra damage mitigation from a 800k strike is around 6-7k instead of the initial 100k above.
To my mind then it makes more sense to stack up a few high value debuffs then put everything else into damage to increase your survivability via temp health.
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Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
To illustrate this point, if your goal is to protect the team and a DPS has a DR of 45%; if you have SoF up, use Feytouched and Bane but no other source of mitigation (and assuming 15% RI), slotting AoT will mitigate damage received by the DPS by 78.39% whereas using AoP will mitigate 79.71% as it increases an existing stat rather than adding one.
If you add CoP into the mix, you're looking at a difference of 86.11% compared to 88.53%.
From an initial 800k strike this is a difference of 19.4k damage received which can often be the difference between life and death.
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The interesting point to me is that as you add more debuffs to enemy damage, the effectiveness of each debuff reduces.
By that I mean for example; aura of truth 12.5% - from an 800k strike it will minus 100k. Feytouched will reduce the same strike by 224k (28%) but when you combine the two you get a debuff of 37% or 296k.
The thing to take from this is that the more debuff sources you add, the less effective all of the resources become. When you add AoT to a debuff list already including FeyT, Bane, SoF, the above companions and then put your DR on top, the total extra damage mitigation from a 800k strike is around 6-7k instead of the initial 100k above.
To my mind then it makes more sense to stack up a few high value debuffs then put everything else into damage to increase your survivability via temp health.
This reasoning is somehow flawed. Since debuffs are multiplicative you're lowering the initial damage by x% of the first debuff, but then by x% of the next debuff from the new value. Otherwise we would end up with negative damage so we'd be getting healed from those Orcus hits. Sure high value damage debuffs are very effective.
Personally I think damage debuffs shouldn't be the focus on OP, it makes more sense for GF to lower the enemy damage looking from the tank's point of view - OP generating huge amount of Temp HP doesn't need to reduce the incoming damage, but for GF relying on HP, shield and healing it makes more sense. And looking at the whole party it also makes sense - GF running Knight Valor intercepting damage from allies so less they take easier for him to eat that damage, on OP on the other hand we have ways to lower the damage (Bane, SoF, Smite, Divine Protector) but also can put allies at max DR with our buffs - Circle of Power, Absolution and let's not forget the extra defense and deflect from Shepher'd Devotion insignia bonus since we rely on high power. Instead it'd be better to focus on OP on DR and defense debuffs which would allow to generate even more Temp HP and help melting enemies faster.
Which bit is flawed? I know you've seen the formula as you pasted the link above - I used exactly the same one.
Put the values in a spreadsheet using the debuffs I've given and you should come to the same results.
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To put this into perspective, here is a screenshot of my defensive stats while standing idle (was farming resources in Whispering Caverns, non combat). The screenshot obviously shows that there is no Campfire buff, so what you see is pretty accurately what my stats are.
DR is not a concern for me at this point because it only goes up while I am in combat (Ring, Divine Call, Stand Fast, etc). This screenshot does not reflect what AoP is giving either. Taking that as a factor, I could with ease (AoP + Divine Call) have DR in the 88% range by simply hitting Divine Call. This is the reason I am focused on damage debuffing at this point. It will not do me in terms of tanking much good to go another 12% (90% seems to be some type of cap, or an advised percentage). What does make sense is to provide something useful in terms of defensive for a team/group/raid.
Ok, so I did plug in some accurate numbers according to the equation above. Rewrote it so it makes sense to developers like me.
800,000 * .2498 (it goes longer, but I believe we can safely say this is as far as we need to go) = 199,840
So, we have nearly 200k unmitigated damage. So yes, I agree that the numbers did not add up, but stacking does has it purpose (from looking above about the forgotten debuff)
Without having the DR formula to figure out what the actual damage taken would be, it would be hard to say what the outcome of this one hit. I would love to see this thru.
** Note **
I can try to share the logs I see now from an Orcus fight. A lot (I do mean a lot) of damage. It seems my current build has an effective mitigation of around 80ish percent. I would be happy to share once I can find a place to upload the document.
[Combat (Self)] Orcus gives 0 (446273) Physical Damage to you with Wand Bash. [Combat (Self)] Orcus gives 0 (514415) Physical Damage to you with Bash. [Combat (Self)] Orcus gives 0 (521299) Physical Damage to you with Bash. [Combat (Self)] Orcus gives 0 (555505) Physical Damage to you with Wand Sweep. [Combat (Self)] Orcus deals 64883 (648828) Physical Damage to you with Wand Bash.
That all looks good and I'd like to point @trzebiat#2067 to the figures to show this is how the multiplication of values works.
With 100k incoming damage debuffed by just DR at 80% the total debuffed damage is 80% but when you add SoF and Bane (so that's two values at 30% each) you get 100,000*(1-0.3)*(1-0.3)*(1-0.8) you get 90.2% of damage negated. The more debuff values you enter, the smaller their worth whereas higher values in a smaller list give you a greater value. This is why it works out that adding 12.5% from AoT gives you less damage debuff than using Aura of Protection - unless of course, your DR is already hitting the cap.
I actually consider this a vital piece of tank-craft that paladins really need to understand.
Edit: I would say from this that it's best to keep your debuffs to a short list due to the multiplicative reduction in all values as you increase the number of debuff sources and that trzebiat is right that damage multipliers are very important for personal survival. I think the way to go is to add debuffs where they give you decent numbers and put the rest of dps - bearing in mind that these suffer from the same multiplicative value reductions.
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There is a catch to having these multiple debuffs. You will not always have 100% of these debuffs on your target at once. Sometimes Rust will not be applied. Other times Chicken will not be applied. Other times you may have only two stacks of Bane on your target or even one stack from the Valhalla set. It's the reality that the max debuff is the 75% (from my numbers), and does not mean you'll always be running this amount. The numbers I am seeing in my ACT logs I feel are in range for my build (average is taking in 20% of the damage).
With that being said, The effectiveness from the data I do have is anywhere from 28.3% to 0.0% on Orcus against my character. It seems 20% seems to be the most common amount of effectiveness. It is unclear at this time if the base damage is pre-debuff or post.
[Combat (Self)] Orcus gives 0 (446273) Physical Damage to you with Wand Bash. [Combat (Self)] Orcus gives 0 (514415) Physical Damage to you with Bash. [Combat (Self)] Orcus gives 0 (521299) Physical Damage to you with Bash. [Combat (Self)] Orcus gives 0 (555505) Physical Damage to you with Wand Sweep. [Combat (Self)] Orcus deals 64883 (648828) Physical Damage to you with Wand Bash.
Updated build to reflect what I am currently running. I personally am loving the damage debuffing build. I have refined it to where tanking Orcus isn't even a stress anymore. My iLevel is sitting around 3250. I'll update the build, boons, gear and etc later.
[Combat (Self)] Orcus gives 0 (446273) Physical Damage to you with Wand Bash. [Combat (Self)] Orcus gives 0 (514415) Physical Damage to you with Bash. [Combat (Self)] Orcus gives 0 (521299) Physical Damage to you with Bash. [Combat (Self)] Orcus gives 0 (555505) Physical Damage to you with Wand Sweep. [Combat (Self)] Orcus deals 64883 (648828) Physical Damage to you with Wand Bash.
[Combat (Self)] Orcus gives 0 (446273) Physical Damage to you with Wand Bash. [Combat (Self)] Orcus gives 0 (514415) Physical Damage to you with Bash. [Combat (Self)] Orcus gives 0 (521299) Physical Damage to you with Bash. [Combat (Self)] Orcus gives 0 (555505) Physical Damage to you with Wand Sweep. [Combat (Self)] Orcus deals 64883 (648828) Physical Damage to you with Wand Bash.
Comments
I'm surprised no mention of T. Feytouched. Boosts your DPS for more Templar's/Courage damage and suprerior debuffing capabilities to Bronzewood ( Feytouched has 15% from hitting things, 15% from the Trans AoE, debuff potential is around ~28%).
I'm surprised you didn't mention the combo of Absolution, Sanctuary, and Circle of Power. Those 3 powers alone put your teammates at the effective DR cap (50% + 20% + 25% = 95%). Drop Circle of Power, put Absolution on everyone, and run up and hold Sanctuary when you expect your teammates to get hit. While it is true that Absolution's DR buff only lasts for however long the shield's duration is, you could always drop Absolution on everyone before the fight and swap out to a more useful power like Bane (I'm the weirdo who micromanages Absolution, sue me).
Yeti active bonus is bugged, because, you know, programming issues.
I'm surprised there's no mention of the Sellsword, Con Artist, or Rebel Merc as Bonding comps. Blah blah Debuff blah blah easy to get.
I'm personally against not using Courage/Wisdom, as Courage is essentially a team wide Storm Spell, and Wisdom is independent of Recovery (meaning no matter how much Recovery someone stacks, Wisdom will make a profound impact on their cooldowns). Courage itself scales with buffs and debuffs, so you can see hits of hundreds of thousands in the right situations.
But overall, like the build. Keep up the good work, we need more Paladin tanks realizing "yes, Tankadin is a solid tank as long as you're trying".
Bah, too lazy to look up patch notes. I'll go give it a shot on preview, hopefully, Survivors' Wraps procs the Yeti.
Previously, tough bosses (Orcus) has not been able to even touch my actual HP with the rotation I use. Much like you, I do use Absolution before going in so that the rest of the group has something more than their own Hp to survive on . My boss rotation is Bane (Rank 4), TW (Rank 4) and Binding Oath (Rank 3). While BO is temporary, it does provide a decent shield and does not always get eaten up by damage. His hits on me after all my debuffs are on him are around 20-50k (I think this would be lower after todays patch, and willing to find out after work.)
For this build, I use the augmentation for now for the up-time. I am hearing (again, just hearsay) that the Paranoid Delusion is a viable bonding companion. I am always open to suggestions on this as I have yet to run a bonding.
Class features is the situational area. For trash mobs and certain places, Courage/Wisdom is what I run. Certain bosses, I run a hybrid Courage/Truth. The really tough ones I run Protection and Truth. This is done to maximize the amount of def the whole team had and how much debuffing can be done to all things in the area.
I would be curious to see how a T.Fey would work with TW and Blinding Light (as per the tooltip, it deals 18% and takes away 18% from your target). I would understand if you only gained 18%, but would the debuff be 18% be for all that were hit?
As always, I am open to any suggestions. My goal is to give the OP community new hope on being a tanking class again. I would love to encourage the development team to revisit the Bulwark path. I think there were some really good ideas in there, but it did not scale with the times. Let's make Oathbound Paladin's great again.
Check out the Shadowknight Build for OP Protection here
[Combat (Self)] Orcus gives 0 (446273) Physical Damage to you with Wand Bash.
[Combat (Self)] Orcus gives 0 (514415) Physical Damage to you with Bash.
[Combat (Self)] Orcus gives 0 (521299) Physical Damage to you with Bash.
[Combat (Self)] Orcus gives 0 (555505) Physical Damage to you with Wand Sweep.
[Combat (Self)] Orcus deals 64883 (648828) Physical Damage to you with Wand Bash.
http://imgur.com/MmPQh1i
Check out the Shadowknight Build for OP Protection here
[Combat (Self)] Orcus gives 0 (446273) Physical Damage to you with Wand Bash.
[Combat (Self)] Orcus gives 0 (514415) Physical Damage to you with Bash.
[Combat (Self)] Orcus gives 0 (521299) Physical Damage to you with Bash.
[Combat (Self)] Orcus gives 0 (555505) Physical Damage to you with Wand Sweep.
[Combat (Self)] Orcus deals 64883 (648828) Physical Damage to you with Wand Bash.
Edit - forgot AoT which should bring the total dmg received down to 56k'ish.
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
Below is a full list of things I have that debuff:
Rust Monster - Max 15%
Bane - 30% (lasts fairly long @ Rank 4)
Aura of Truth - 12.5%
T.Fey - (is this 15% + 15% ?? or 18% as per the tooltip, I go with the less for the sake of hitting a minimum) 18%
Martyr's Blood - 10%
Chicken - (Was not used last night, but does provide a 10% when 25%+ of your hp in damage is done to you).
This total comes up to 85.5% Max debuffing (not taking my question on T.Fey into considering, otherwise i'd be 97.5%)
Overall, I still feel Fey did pretty well overall as I had more temp HP to stand on. This was the first time that no healing was available for a good portion of the fight (greater than 50% of the fight it was just a TR and myself as a duo). I have the gear for FBI now and will be attempting it over the weekend with some guild members.
I am also evaluating the Bulwark spec as a whole. Some things have occurred to me where going Bulwark might be better as a tank. I plan on testing these changes on Mimic first (maybe go into something like Cold Run and let the giants beat on me for a while).
Check out the Shadowknight Build for OP Protection here
[Combat (Self)] Orcus gives 0 (446273) Physical Damage to you with Wand Bash.
[Combat (Self)] Orcus gives 0 (514415) Physical Damage to you with Bash.
[Combat (Self)] Orcus gives 0 (521299) Physical Damage to you with Bash.
[Combat (Self)] Orcus gives 0 (555505) Physical Damage to you with Wand Sweep.
[Combat (Self)] Orcus deals 64883 (648828) Physical Damage to you with Wand Bash.
Bane - 30% (3 stacks)
Rust Monster - 14.26% (3 stacks)
Aura of Truth - 12.5%
Martyr's Blood - 10%
Trans Feytouched - 15%
Trans Feytouched AoE - 15%
Chicken - 10%
{1 - [(1 - 0.3) * (1 - 0.1426) * (1 - 0.125) * (1 - 0.1) * (1 - 0.15) * (1 - 0.15) * (1 - 0.1)]} * 100% =
= {1 - [0.3073]} * 100% =
= 69.27% - total damage debuff
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
http://imgur.com/3b8EWgk - This is why I question the Trans Fey. Clearly states 18%. I understand tooltips could be wrong, or their intent was 18% but currently provided something else.
I was not including my personal DR in any of this because my focus right now is testing the damage debuffing abilities of our class.
The point of this is to provide more survival for our group members by lowering the potential amount of damage that could be done by anything in the area (I have tested a Radiant Strike and the Fey does affect all, but you still get one buff in which I expect that to be). AoT and anything that hits me could be affected by Martyer's Blood and Rust from the Rust Monster.
Check out the Shadowknight Build for OP Protection here
[Combat (Self)] Orcus gives 0 (446273) Physical Damage to you with Wand Bash.
[Combat (Self)] Orcus gives 0 (514415) Physical Damage to you with Bash.
[Combat (Self)] Orcus gives 0 (521299) Physical Damage to you with Bash.
[Combat (Self)] Orcus gives 0 (555505) Physical Damage to you with Wand Sweep.
[Combat (Self)] Orcus deals 64883 (648828) Physical Damage to you with Wand Bash.
I took 1 as initial damage for easier calculations, [] is the final damage after debuffs. In this case with these debuffs damage was lowered from 1 to 0.3073, so by 69.27%. I didn't include DR as it's not a part of damage debuffs.
What we forgot to include was SoF which would take it down to 95.7% for the Pally and 81.71% for any DPS with 30% DR (therefore 15% in boss fights due to 15% enemy RI) and at 50% for a typical GWF puts them at 86.02%
Just for clarity, I'm placing personal shields and DR after debuffs to enemy damage output.
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
The AoE is worth 15%, the debuff itself 15%.
100 * (1 - 0.85) * (0.85)
100 * (0.15) * (0.15)
72.25 (this is the effectiveness of the damage, assuming you're applying a T. Feytouched to target, you aren't accounting for DR, and nobody else is applying any damage debuffs or mitigation sources).
100 -72.25 = 27.75% exact, but because we're lazy mathamticians, we'll round it up to 28%.
Numbers from Michela's damage debuff spreadsheet blah blah all of the work was done by her except for the above algebra.
By that I mean for example; aura of truth 12.5% - from an 800k strike it will minus 100k.
Feytouched will reduce the same strike by 224k (28%) but when you combine the two you get a debuff of 37% or 296k.
The thing to take from this is that the more debuff sources you add, the less effective all of the resources become. When you add AoT to a debuff list already including FeyT, Bane, SoF, the above companions and then put your DR on top, the total extra damage mitigation from a 800k strike is around 6-7k instead of the initial 100k above.
To my mind then it makes more sense to stack up a few high value debuffs then put everything else into damage to increase your survivability via temp health.
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
If you add CoP into the mix, you're looking at a difference of 86.11% compared to 88.53%.
From an initial 800k strike this is a difference of 19.4k damage received which can often be the difference between life and death.
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
Personally I think damage debuffs shouldn't be the focus on OP, it makes more sense for GF to lower the enemy damage looking from the tank's point of view - OP generating huge amount of Temp HP doesn't need to reduce the incoming damage, but for GF relying on HP, shield and healing it makes more sense. And looking at the whole party it also makes sense - GF running Knight Valor intercepting damage from allies so less they take easier for him to eat that damage, on OP on the other hand we have ways to lower the damage (Bane, SoF, Smite, Divine Protector) but also can put allies at max DR with our buffs - Circle of Power, Absolution and let's not forget the extra defense and deflect from Shepher'd Devotion insignia bonus since we rely on high power. Instead it'd be better to focus on OP on DR and defense debuffs which would allow to generate even more Temp HP and help melting enemies faster.
Put the values in a spreadsheet using the debuffs I've given and you should come to the same results.
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
Wide Screenshot
DR is not a concern for me at this point because it only goes up while I am in combat (Ring, Divine Call, Stand Fast, etc). This screenshot does not reflect what AoP is giving either. Taking that as a factor, I could with ease (AoP + Divine Call) have DR in the 88% range by simply hitting Divine Call. This is the reason I am focused on damage debuffing at this point. It will not do me in terms of tanking much good to go another 12% (90% seems to be some type of cap, or an advised percentage). What does make sense is to provide something useful in terms of defensive for a team/group/raid.
Ok, so I did plug in some accurate numbers according to the equation above. Rewrote it so it makes sense to developers like me.
initDmg * [(1-debuffValue1) * (1-debuffValue2)] = actualDamage
Lets take Orcus at what is believed is his max, 800k and the current list of debuffs I am running.
init damage * rust * banex3 * aot * chicken * tfey dmg * tfey aoe * martyr's blood * valhalla set
800,000 * [(1-.15)*(1-.30)*(1-.125)*(1-.10)*(1-.15)*(1-.15)*(1-.10)*(1-.18)] = actualDmg
800,000 * [(.85)*(.70)*(.875)*(.90)*(.85)*(.85)*(.90)*(.82)]
800,000 * .2498 (it goes longer, but I believe we can safely say this is as far as we need to go) = 199,840
So, we have nearly 200k unmitigated damage. So yes, I agree that the numbers did not add up, but stacking does has it purpose (from looking above about the forgotten debuff)
Without having the DR formula to figure out what the actual damage taken would be, it would be hard to say what the outcome of this one hit. I would love to see this thru.
** Note **
I can try to share the logs I see now from an Orcus fight. A lot (I do mean a lot) of damage. It seems my current build has an effective mitigation of around 80ish percent. I would be happy to share once I can find a place to upload the document.
Check out the Shadowknight Build for OP Protection here
[Combat (Self)] Orcus gives 0 (446273) Physical Damage to you with Wand Bash.
[Combat (Self)] Orcus gives 0 (514415) Physical Damage to you with Bash.
[Combat (Self)] Orcus gives 0 (521299) Physical Damage to you with Bash.
[Combat (Self)] Orcus gives 0 (555505) Physical Damage to you with Wand Sweep.
[Combat (Self)] Orcus deals 64883 (648828) Physical Damage to you with Wand Bash.
With 100k incoming damage debuffed by just DR at 80% the total debuffed damage is 80% but when you add SoF and Bane (so that's two values at 30% each) you get 100,000*(1-0.3)*(1-0.3)*(1-0.8) you get 90.2% of damage negated. The more debuff values you enter, the smaller their worth whereas higher values in a smaller list give you a greater value. This is why it works out that adding 12.5% from AoT gives you less damage debuff than using Aura of Protection - unless of course, your DR is already hitting the cap.
I actually consider this a vital piece of tank-craft that paladins really need to understand.
Edit: I would say from this that it's best to keep your debuffs to a short list due to the multiplicative reduction in all values as you increase the number of debuff sources and that trzebiat is right that damage multipliers are very important for personal survival. I think the way to go is to add debuffs where they give you decent numbers and put the rest of dps - bearing in mind that these suffer from the same multiplicative value reductions.
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
With that being said, The effectiveness from the data I do have is anywhere from 28.3% to 0.0% on Orcus against my character. It seems 20% seems to be the most common amount of effectiveness. It is unclear at this time if the base damage is pre-debuff or post.
Check out the Shadowknight Build for OP Protection here
[Combat (Self)] Orcus gives 0 (446273) Physical Damage to you with Wand Bash.
[Combat (Self)] Orcus gives 0 (514415) Physical Damage to you with Bash.
[Combat (Self)] Orcus gives 0 (521299) Physical Damage to you with Bash.
[Combat (Self)] Orcus gives 0 (555505) Physical Damage to you with Wand Sweep.
[Combat (Self)] Orcus deals 64883 (648828) Physical Damage to you with Wand Bash.
Check out the Shadowknight Build for OP Protection here
[Combat (Self)] Orcus gives 0 (446273) Physical Damage to you with Wand Bash.
[Combat (Self)] Orcus gives 0 (514415) Physical Damage to you with Bash.
[Combat (Self)] Orcus gives 0 (521299) Physical Damage to you with Bash.
[Combat (Self)] Orcus gives 0 (555505) Physical Damage to you with Wand Sweep.
[Combat (Self)] Orcus deals 64883 (648828) Physical Damage to you with Wand Bash.
Check out the Shadowknight Build for OP Protection here
[Combat (Self)] Orcus gives 0 (446273) Physical Damage to you with Wand Bash.
[Combat (Self)] Orcus gives 0 (514415) Physical Damage to you with Bash.
[Combat (Self)] Orcus gives 0 (521299) Physical Damage to you with Bash.
[Combat (Self)] Orcus gives 0 (555505) Physical Damage to you with Wand Sweep.
[Combat (Self)] Orcus deals 64883 (648828) Physical Damage to you with Wand Bash.