Yea the only way i can see Augments becoming viable again without making them better then bondings is letting us use both pet and augment at the same time .
Why would you want to nerf most of the playerbase just because you feel that you do not get enough of a challenge playing the game. It's your choice what equipment you use. If you feel that strongly about it, don't use them.
FBI is still easy with augments. Ppl complaining about bondings are just searching for an excuse to why they suck. They are like oh... if i had bondings...i could do the same dmg...
If rewards stay as they are I am against a downsizing of bondings. FBI outside a premade buffer group is horrible regarding the time/AD value. Maybe augments could provide some more stats like 140%. Augment is a cheap alternative and is ment to be used in the beginning in PVE. I know some do run them even being 3.5k IL. But if those player want to do random runs for FBI, reply in chat on "lfm, need some high dps" and end up dealing 15% of a that GWF, killing the hole run, I am not amused tbh. This results in my first kick ingame since I started to play. @tom FBI is easy in case you run that dungeon with premades. Try to do this random. And I think that should be the measure stick for the game, an average random run.
the problem is not the bonding, the problem is that your companion get the same buffs as you and with bonding he can give you back this buff 3X strogner. it's only happen with stat buffs, i think only DC and OP have it, but maybe other classes as well.
there are several ways they can solve it
don't allow buffs on companions - in a way its making all companion augment ...
don't allow buffs of copmanion to transmit with bonding - DC allready got several powers nerfed this way.
make buff on companion scale to it's level - for example level 40 companion will receive only 5% of the buffs compare to L70 character. L30 companion will recieve 3% etc.
probably there are other ways to do it. but i dont think they need to nerf all bonding cause of DC and OP. and i dont think they need to nerf DC and OP cause of bonding.
Right now it is possible to run a party where the party takes no damage and the enemies have no damage resist and instantly melt. MoF is part of that nonsense. Bondings have nothing to do with that.
You know, MoFs aren't the only class which can put teams at the debuff cap.
You can... wait for it... run a variety of classes which put teams at the debuff cap. And uncapped debuffs are universal to all players, you just need to invest a little bit of AD in the comp/enchant.
If you're so adamant on nerfing buffs and debuffs, remember that the GWF lives and dies by their loads and loads of damage buffs.
And also, if you're talking about mobs dying quickly Tier1s/Tier2s like EToS/ELoL/VT/CN... well, yeah. Most teams which burn mobs quickly already severely outgear the content.
I am not even talking about the self-buffs or GWFs. What do self-buffs even have to do with bondings or this convo? I am talking about end-game content being run like it was T1. It has nothing to do with bondings or self-buffs, it is buff/debuff and too much damage immunity and damage mitigation. Those are what need to be toned down, not bondings.
I really do not buy that end-game content is easy with augments. But, they are very easy with OP powers. Every run I see of FBI or MSVA includes perma-bubble, AA, MoF Rene or some other broken mechanics. If you can do FBI, SP and MSVA without the broken mechanics, I want to see it. So, I say nerf the broken mechanics to the ground and just adjust bondings to not share external buffs to you through your pet. The buffs and debuffs are more of a crutch than bondings ever were.
Right now it is possible to run a party where the party takes no damage and the enemies have no damage resist and instantly melt. MoF is part of that nonsense. Bondings have nothing to do with that.
Mobs actually do have a damage reduction built in, which is why most of us need to stack 60% Resistance ignored to deal full damage to mobs/bosses. While it is true that most of the speedruns are done with things like AA or the bubble, interestingly enoguh, some of the fastest FBI clears have also excluded MoFs or even CWs. Make of that what you will.
As indicated by your first quote, you wish to nerf "all buffs and debuffs". Well, as you know (or, at least, claim to know), buffs like ITF or Longstriders are multiplicative with other buffs. This includes the GWF's self buffs. So if you muck around with the buff formula, then you're also going to mess up classes heavily reliant on damage buffs, like the Destro GWF, Conq GF, and to a lesser extent, Trapper HRs and Thaumaturge CWs.
For MoFs, what are MoFs most popular for? Combustive Action, Swath of Destruction, and Ray of Enfeblement. The latter is available to CWs of all types and is really only useful on one target. All 3 are capped debuffs, which means that any number of classes with capped debuffs can do the same as the MoF. Combustive lasts only when the CW applies a daily, which means that the uptime can vary wildly depending on the CW"s AP Gain.
(@oria1, let me know if I missed anything else MoF debuffers can do)
If you're talking about Renegade buffs specifically, you're mostly looking at Chaos Magic, Uncertain Allegiance, and Nightmare Wizardry. The latter two are superflouous if you got a high crit chance and know how to get CA respectively. Chaos Magic is quite a large buff at a 30% damage bonus. Renegade is also available to Spellstorms as well as MoFs, so some SS Renegades can provide some buffing utility at the expense of damage.
I don't mind nerfing invincibility stuff (because, you know, everything needs to have a risk to reward ratio). It's just that most endgame stuff happens to oneshot, and if I wanted to dodge everything thrown at me, I'd play Raiden or Touhou, not this game.
Anyways, we may not see eye to eye on most things, but we can agree that Bondings don't need a "major" overhaul as the OP suggested. Augments, however, should be buffed.
I don't get why Cryptic doesn't do this, excluding the legendary bonus:
Normal/Green Augment: 100% of comp stats. Blue Augment: 145% of comp stats. Purple Augment: 190% of comp stats. Orange Augment: 235% of comp stats.
This way, augments are decently competitive. While Bonding comps yield more stats and have cooler abilities, they can also die (FBI boss 2, Svardborg glitches, or eSP boss 2 are example of comp death spots), which means that if you're not. With augments, you simply slap them on and they give you the passive boost. Not as flashy, but not as much risk either. Bondings also cost a lot more than augments, because Bonding Runestones are expensive, and due to this cost, I think Bondings should have "some" edge over augments.
if it had to be nerfed, classes should be balanced better first. preference to run certain dungeons with certain classes is already a thing, to an extreme even. nerfing bonding would cause a preference to turn into an "mandatory" to an extent I'd expect. 3-4 dc msva groups are already a thing, image where we go from here.
Let's not forget you could once use 3 diffrent ranks of bondings and all three could proc 3 times each and more with and bell. Bonding as it stands imo work just fine since their last makeover. As many have said in this thread a better look into augments could be had to make them viable. My first week on Xbox launch I bought an Ioun stone of allure for 15 bucks, it's sat on my bench since and has been my worst use of real money in this game. Alot needs to be reworked in this game and a companion only enchantment is not on the top of my list. My opinion I still respect the OP's opinion but can't agree.
Guardian Fighter: SM Conqueror
[]Full Metal Witch[] 4149 TiL Guild: (X1) The Legendary Outlaws
"The Best of the Best" "Nobody does it better" #TLO BiS
I really do not buy that end-game content is easy with augments. But, they are very easy with OP powers. Every run I see of FBI or MSVA includes perma-bubble, AA, MoF Rene or some other broken mechanics. If you can do FBI, SP and MSVA without the broken mechanics, I want to see it. So, I say nerf the broken mechanics to the ground and just adjust bondings to not share external buffs to you through your pet. The buffs and debuffs are more of a crutch than bondings ever were.
By broken we mean something that doesn't work as its supposed to, or intended. That's what i was referring to. AA is not working as intended for example.
But since you like to talk about nerfs in general let me remind you that not all groups are formed by full 4.382 IL doing a dungeon that asks for 1.600 or 2.000 IL. A lot of people are in the range of 2.500 to 3.500 IL and the game is considering them too. Not everyone has r12 bonding stones, purple insignia etc some have r9 or r10. So nerfing the debuffs from any class (not just the cw) will hurt them the most.
If you feel that debuffs are to much I would advice you to do, what you advice others and run the dungeons without debuffers or clerics and enjoy the game the way you like it and same goes for the OP.
As for my friend RJ MoFs can overcome that limit (in some ways) I ll pm you in game!!
Why nerf the bonding runestones rank 12 to a blue augment companion level ??? This will make those difficult dungeons like FBI and SPC master very frustating !! The tank will not tank like before, the dps will do much less damage, and the spent time to finish then will increase a lot !!
The best thing to do is suggest a rework/buff to these another runestones and augment companions, but leave the bonding runestones quiet in their corner.
@defiantone99 A premadw group going for the fastest time isnt including a random dps, its including a GWF as dps. Maybe you shouldnt call for nerfs when u play THE best dps class in the game. Im just saying
If you think you are pros, show me your full augment MSVA and FBI runs. But, no Orcus set, WoE, Bubble, AA or any other things that are overpowered.
No. Its the opposite. Pros ( like you said) are using every legit combination of buffs/debuffs and try to maximize this to get fast thru a dungeon. Pro gaming has nothing to do with " dont use that and dont use this"! Theese so called pros made all dungeons before without any boundings. Good players doing math. Good players thinking about which grp consteallation is the best to get fast as possible thru a dungeon like FBI. As long you do this legit and as long you dont use things like the ole sets ( i know i know...they fixed them. Was just an example)/buggy things, its ok and its more pro style than to dont use buffs/debuffs. Am i a pro player if i only wear blue stuff/green weapons/max 9s enchants/augment and i clear CN? Srly ??
BTT: This whole thread is senseless. Get over it that augments are obsolet. I dont want the time back when every one was running with an iounstone...this was boring.
I advise some ppl to read up on some things, for example the buff/debuff guide of @thefabricant. If you know how dmg is created, you know whats the problem.
Bondings are BIS, they deserve to be BIS, due to the costs compared to augments.
There might be some issues related to bondings, but not the bondings themself.
BTW if some of would really understand how this game works, you would for example use HG instead of AA with 15k power or another companion then fire archon, but hey many of you claim, that the game is to easy. Dont adjust or it would become even easier.
I advise some ppl to read up on some things, for example the buff/debuff guide of @thefabricant. If you know how dmg is created, you know whats the problem.
Bondings are BIS, they deserve to be BIS, due to the costs compared to augments.
There might be some issues related to bondings, but not the bondings themself.
BTW if some of would really understand how this game works, you would for example use HG instead of AA with 15k power or another companion then fire archon, but hey many of you claim, that the game is to easy. Dont adjust or it would become even easier.
1.Tell me what it the benefit from HG over AA actually? AA buffs Chains from 26k up to 45k , running my 3x12 bondings on a companion, plus cc immunitiy+immortality HG buffs my chains from 26k to 36k (only the better choice in low geared teams)
Having no companion, Chains go from 14 to 20k with HG and from 14 to 19k with AA in my setup, a small difference wich becomes irrelevant taking into account, that HG prevents me from gaining any AP and just makes this daily completely inferior at current mod, compared to AA wich is up 24/7. Or do you talk about the theory having 15k power in a hole, and no companion with bondings ? Never met a DC with that low power lately tbh.
2. Explain in simple words how in a 5 man dungeon my effectiveness can stack up to 400% runnning beside a renemof, you are up to do the math, since you understand this game obviously, thx
2. Explain in simple words how in a 5 man dungeon my effectiveness can stack up to 400% runnning beside a renemof, you are up to do the math, since you understand this game obviously, thx
Simple, you were running with me :P /trollmode -off
Seriously now, there are very few CWs that know how to debuff and when. I love when I see so called Debuffers with vorpal and wheel of elements. Anyway we are getting off topic here.
Bondings are ok IMO. Content is the problem. When a company designs "4k items and chars" for "2k dungeons" those complains will happen.
If I remember correctly in DnD - you could have an ioun stone (only one) AND a companion. However, if I also recall correctly you didn't get the companions stats, or any multiplier of the companion's stats. However it could buff you and it could fight with you.
Granted this isn't DnD.
Back to the OP's topic - I still think that there needs to be a way to make the augments a viable option for end game as well.
Founding Member of "Wrong Side of the Stronghold" Ravenskya - TR / Krisha Chaos - OP / Waffles - GF / Dex Domitor - HR Becky the trendy GWF - GWF / Too Toasty - SW / Falcor - DC / Morrigan - CW / Sir Didymus - OP
Comments
They are like oh... if i had bondings...i could do the same dmg...
Maybe augments could provide some more stats like 140%. Augment is a cheap alternative and is ment to be used in the beginning in PVE.
I know some do run them even being 3.5k IL. But if those player want to do random runs for FBI, reply in chat on "lfm, need some high dps" and end up dealing 15% of a that GWF, killing the hole run, I am not amused tbh.
This results in my first kick ingame since I started to play.
@tom FBI is easy in case you run that dungeon with premades. Try to do this random. And I think that should be the measure stick for the game, an average random run.
Voodoo
MoF Debuffer
@oria1
It is that voodoo you do to you know who....or something like that.
it's only happen with stat buffs, i think only DC and OP have it, but maybe other classes as well.
there are several ways they can solve it
- don't allow buffs on companions - in a way its making all companion augment ...
- don't allow buffs of copmanion to transmit with bonding - DC allready got several powers nerfed this way.
- make buff on companion scale to it's level - for example level 40 companion will receive only 5% of the buffs compare to L70 character. L30 companion will recieve 3% etc.
probably there are other ways to do it.but i dont think they need to nerf all bonding cause of DC and OP. and i dont think they need to nerf DC and OP cause of bonding.
You can... wait for it... run a variety of classes which put teams at the debuff cap. And uncapped debuffs are universal to all players, you just need to invest a little bit of AD in the comp/enchant.
If you're so adamant on nerfing buffs and debuffs, remember that the GWF lives and dies by their loads and loads of damage buffs.
And also, if you're talking about mobs dying quickly Tier1s/Tier2s like EToS/ELoL/VT/CN... well, yeah. Most teams which burn mobs quickly already severely outgear the content.
As indicated by your first quote, you wish to nerf "all buffs and debuffs". Well, as you know (or, at least, claim to know), buffs like ITF or Longstriders are multiplicative with other buffs. This includes the GWF's self buffs. So if you muck around with the buff formula, then you're also going to mess up classes heavily reliant on damage buffs, like the Destro GWF, Conq GF, and to a lesser extent, Trapper HRs and Thaumaturge CWs.
For MoFs, what are MoFs most popular for? Combustive Action, Swath of Destruction, and Ray of Enfeblement. The latter is available to CWs of all types and is really only useful on one target. All 3 are capped debuffs, which means that any number of classes with capped debuffs can do the same as the MoF. Combustive lasts only when the CW applies a daily, which means that the uptime can vary wildly depending on the CW"s AP Gain.
(@oria1, let me know if I missed anything else MoF debuffers can do)
If you're talking about Renegade buffs specifically, you're mostly looking at Chaos Magic, Uncertain Allegiance, and Nightmare Wizardry. The latter two are superflouous if you got a high crit chance and know how to get CA respectively. Chaos Magic is quite a large buff at a 30% damage bonus. Renegade is also available to Spellstorms as well as MoFs, so some SS Renegades can provide some buffing utility at the expense of damage.
I don't mind nerfing invincibility stuff (because, you know, everything needs to have a risk to reward ratio). It's just that most endgame stuff happens to oneshot, and if I wanted to dodge everything thrown at me, I'd play Raiden or Touhou, not this game.
Anyways, we may not see eye to eye on most things, but we can agree that Bondings don't need a "major" overhaul as the OP suggested. Augments, however, should be buffed.
I don't get why Cryptic doesn't do this, excluding the legendary bonus:
Normal/Green Augment: 100% of comp stats.
Blue Augment: 145% of comp stats.
Purple Augment: 190% of comp stats.
Orange Augment: 235% of comp stats.
This way, augments are decently competitive. While Bonding comps yield more stats and have cooler abilities, they can also die (FBI boss 2, Svardborg glitches, or eSP boss 2 are example of comp death spots), which means that if you're not. With augments, you simply slap them on and they give you the passive boost. Not as flashy, but not as much risk either. Bondings also cost a lot more than augments, because Bonding Runestones are expensive, and due to this cost, I think Bondings should have "some" edge over augments.
[]Full Metal Witch[]
4149 TiL
Guild: (X1) The Legendary Outlaws
"The Best of the Best"
"Nobody does it better"
#TLO BiS
But since you like to talk about nerfs in general let me remind you that not all groups are formed by full 4.382 IL doing a dungeon that asks for 1.600 or 2.000 IL. A lot of people are in the range of 2.500 to 3.500 IL and the game is considering them too. Not everyone has r12 bonding stones, purple insignia etc some have r9 or r10. So nerfing the debuffs from any class (not just the cw) will hurt them the most.
If you feel that debuffs are to much I would advice you to do, what you advice others and run the dungeons without debuffers or clerics and enjoy the game the way you like it and same goes for the OP.
As for my friend RJ MoFs can overcome that limit (in some ways)
Voodoo
MoF Debuffer
Seriously, this is an absurd idea. Sorry.
Why nerf the bonding runestones rank 12 to a blue augment companion level ??? This will make those difficult dungeons like FBI and SPC master very frustating !! The tank will not tank like before, the dps will do much less damage, and the spent time to finish then will increase a lot !!
The best thing to do is suggest a rework/buff to these another runestones and augment companions, but leave the bonding runestones quiet in their corner.
A premadw group going for the fastest time isnt including a random dps, its including a GWF as dps. Maybe you shouldnt call for nerfs when u play THE best dps class in the game. Im just saying
Theese so called pros made all dungeons before without any boundings. Good players doing math. Good players thinking about which grp consteallation is the best to get fast as possible thru a dungeon like FBI.
As long you do this legit and as long you dont use things like the ole sets ( i know i know...they fixed them. Was just an example)/buggy things, its ok and its more pro style than to dont use buffs/debuffs.
Am i a pro player if i only wear blue stuff/green weapons/max 9s enchants/augment and i clear CN? Srly ??
BTT:
This whole thread is senseless. Get over it that augments are obsolet. I dont want the time back when every one was running with an iounstone...this was boring.
everything capped...sure
Bondings are BIS, they deserve to be BIS, due to the costs compared to augments.
There might be some issues related to bondings, but not the bondings themself.
BTW if some of would really understand how this game works, you would for example use HG instead of AA with 15k power or another companion then fire archon, but hey many of you claim, that the game is to easy. Dont adjust or it would become even easier.
AA buffs Chains from 26k up to 45k , running my 3x12 bondings on a companion, plus cc immunitiy+immortality
HG buffs my chains from 26k to 36k (only the better choice in low geared teams)
Having no companion, Chains go from 14 to 20k with HG and from 14 to 19k with AA in my setup, a small difference wich becomes irrelevant taking into account, that HG prevents me from gaining any AP and just makes this daily completely inferior at current mod, compared to AA wich is up 24/7.
Or do you talk about the theory having 15k power in a hole, and no companion with bondings ?
Never met a DC with that low power lately tbh.
2. Explain in simple words how in a 5 man dungeon my effectiveness can stack up to 400% runnning beside a renemof, you are up to do the math, since you understand this game obviously, thx
Simple, you were running with me :P /trollmode -off
Seriously now, there are very few CWs that know how to debuff and when. I love when I see so called Debuffers with vorpal and wheel of elements. Anyway we are getting off topic here.
Bondings are ok IMO. Content is the problem. When a company designs "4k items and chars" for "2k dungeons" those complains will happen.
Voodoo
MoF Debuffer
Granted this isn't DnD.
Back to the OP's topic - I still think that there needs to be a way to make the augments a viable option for end game as well.
Ravenskya - TR / Krisha Chaos - OP / Waffles - GF / Dex Domitor - HR
Becky the trendy GWF - GWF / Too Toasty - SW / Falcor - DC / Morrigan - CW / Sir Didymus - OP