Every update and class balance, SW becomes weaker

etelgrin · February 2017

Don't you guys think the same? The first SW Fury is uncompetable because Creeping Death did overwhelming 300% of your weapon damage as necrotic damage over time. There were time when Damnation Soul Puppet scaling was a miracle in buggy dungeon environment and excelled as well, Tyrannical Threat used to be able to mark 3 targets, now is only 1, Infernal Wrath was great tool to discover and disable First Strike from Rogue, now is not anymore. Dreadtheft was great survivability tool used with Warlocks Bargain for 5 stacks total for defensive and offensive purposes now is not anymore, spite you can cast some thing while DT is going on depending on your latency isn't really much of a help more like a bug. Tyrannical Curse also used to increase damage dealt to the target significantly enough to make it worth using always, even if only for a buff. Killing and Murderous Flames rendered to pretty much uselessness and CD reduction on r4 power still is messed up. Even though I admire the Hellbringer rework as it was utterly needed, Soulbinder was left out in rather unnice situation where he can't crank up any reasonable damage in PvP, while still excells in PvE due to Soul Scorch damage which don't lay of a DoT like it used to be on TC marked targets, only on cursed ones which brings the playstyle to tab/ss, tab/ss, tab/ss and generating sparks with bova or whatnot. Temptation is untouched since stronghold destroyed old mechanics despite multiple promises. And now recently the weapon enchantments won't proc off of DoT will hit just once, which also place our DoT based class in terms of DoT behind CW who can trigger it as many as ticks have conduit of ice (example only).

What is going on... where is this class going ..

diloul31 · February 2017

Not sure if you are talking about something in mod11.

But with the help of masters warlocks here, i'm very satisfied with my HB fury as it is right now.

No class can beat my dps with a similar GS (3k)

Never runed FBI and svarlorg yet thought.

We adapted our playstile along the nerfs, sw is still very viable while buffing/debuff.

schietindebux · February 2017

I agree to almost all part etelgrin.
And warlock is not dps N°1 in PVE imo. Tbh my personal experience tells me Hunter, GF and GWF are slightly above.
@thefabricant , who does min/max, stated that the best dps he knows are a GF and GWF. Maybe some other can confirm this, maybe not. My GF has a tanksetup, using Knights Challenge+Kneebraker+Griffon/Anvil no warlock can beat that burst imo.

Imo Warlock got an upgrade in PVP (Hellbringer), SB deals HAMSTER damage as a tank/nodeholder.
Tbh I don´t know how this worked
" Infernal Wrath was great tool to discover and disable First Strike from Rogue",
but I used infernal spheres a lot, same as DT and Harrow storm when I run PVP mods ago.
Harrow Storm stays with it´s buggy HAMSTER animation 4ever

Atm I feal like working pretty hard for my dps and I can´t see much builds/options beside the fury-tree to be from any interest in terms of being competeable and from use in PVP and PVE.
But I can only speak for PVE, since I run damnation and temptation for some period.
Is there someone runnning damnation in PVP atm?

lunari · February 2017

I totally agree with the Original Poster. I've noticed so much changes with the Warlock that it has slowly come to me seeking out on another class. I've put so much time and money into my Warlock to just see it perform poorly. While I see other classes rank up the charts? I sit and wonder, "how in the world they do it?" "What is their secret? Can a Warlock achieve those similiar ideas?" ...Yeah I don't know what else to do. I am going to slowly abandon my once loved class to seek another class that is less stressful to work on. Makes me wonder why when I get grouped up in parties I rarely see another Warlock besides me...

terrasight · February 2017

I'm being the only one who thinks SW stays good? Yes TC is fixed, yes other things nerfed...BUT:

I'm running FBI & MSVA every day, and mostly with similar levels around and over 4k.
And not often other classes can beat the SW, especially on bosses (AoE we can't beat a good played GWF for example in my opinion). We are the class for the big guys in the dungeons...the boss killers. We need our time to unleash our full potential.

I'm not one of the "old specialists" like kolatmaster or fernu, but I'm testing every day things out (sadly no logfiles, I'm on PS4) and I noticed that often a small tweak can make a big difference (a bit more crit here, a little change there...and so on).

Yes we lost something...but good geared (relics) and well played we doing good.

xrawcarnage · February 2017

I find this wrong. My aoe puts me ahead on every class but a good gwf and even a good hr in msva can keep up with me in single targets. Now my question to y'all , what is your single target rotation? I'm curious to see if you all do things similar to me.

hadestemplar · February 2017

etelgrin said:
Don't you guys think the same? The first SW Fury is uncompetable because Creeping Death did overwhelming 300% of your weapon damage as necrotic damage over time. There were time when Damnation Soul Puppet scaling was a miracle in buggy dungeon environment and excelled as well, Tyrannical Threat used to be able to mark 3 targets, now is only 1, Infernal Wrath was great tool to discover and disable First Strike from Rogue, now is not anymore. Dreadtheft was great survivability tool used with Warlocks Bargain for 5 stacks total for defensive and offensive purposes now is not anymore, spite you can cast some thing while DT is going on depending on your latency isn't really much of a help more like a bug. Tyrannical Curse also used to increase damage dealt to the target significantly enough to make it worth using always, even if only for a buff. Killing and Murderous Flames rendered to pretty much uselessness and CD reduction on r4 power still is messed up. Even though I admire the Hellbringer rework as it was utterly needed, Soulbinder was left out in rather unnice situation where he can't crank up any reasonable damage in PvP, while still excells in PvE due to Soul Scorch damage which don't lay of a DoT like it used to be on TC marked targets, only on cursed ones which brings the playstyle to tab/ss, tab/ss, tab/ss and generating sparks with bova or whatnot. Temptation is untouched since stronghold destroyed old mechanics despite multiple promises. And now recently the weapon enchantments won't proc off of DoT will hit just once, which also place our DoT based class in terms of DoT behind CW who can trigger it as many as ticks have conduit of ice (example only).

What is going on... where is this class going ..

I found that after reading your post it where like dejavu. I wrote similar post in mod 7 or mod 8. Can't remember.

Now at first we need to remember whole warlocks story, what he where in start, what strong and weak sides it had, what changes where done, and where they lead.

Notice: wall of text, sw story.

Now Warlock where introduced in mod 4, and we had Hellbringer paragon path at that time. His strong side where, Strong encounters, but slow casting speed and unlike CW we where/ still do have only 3 encounters slots in try bar.
Warlock had strong powers which rivaled GWF, and time to time where consider raw/brute magic. However lacked CC elements.
At that time SW had only Wraith shadow (-_- )', And harrowstorm which where slow. In other words, SW relayed on brutal dps.
Now as furry where kinda tricky situation, Creeping death triggered only with necrotic (DoT) encounters which where slightly weaker than fire burst powers. Also at that time Creeping deaths each stack did 100% of dealt dmg.. :P That was monster dps.
However it was clear also other flaw withing SW's desing..
Warlock had stronger single target powers but literally no AoE, so due that Tyrannical Curse where for. When TT is up, you hit with strongest Single target powers and TT by percentage of deal damage link to enemies around him.
Now with mod 10 rework, @amenar wrote, that Tyrannical curse worked wrongly, and it had to be single curse only,. In other words Tyrannical Curse is what TT had to be in start...
SO all Warlocks greatness where just illusion and players relayed mostly on glitched daily power... But that is developers fault, due poor/bad power clarification, and also because ignored SW class for long time....

Next, and most/biggest/major flaw withing SW desing is curse mechanic. Now @amenar in slitghtly soften this problem, but yet didn't fixed. Also if anyone read his posts during rework time. HE wrote that inside team where even talks about removing curse mechanic at all.. WHich I would say would be great option.. But that means rework SW class from scratch, furry tree literally depend on cruse, also all powers trigger effects due Curse..
During mod 4 period, there where time when temptation SW's where more popular than fury, all because Unlike furry, templock is least depended on curse mechanic. For me it's optional rather requirement.

Now before SB introduction players complained that DoT powers where to weak against Burst powers. Even if I applied Creeping death stacks, it required time. While CW's blasted dungeons.

Due Requirement of burst power, developers introduced SB, and it's unique Soul Scorch power. In that time even during SB testing, asked developers why there is no AoE burst. But because due TT SW where called overpowered lot of times, it would be overkill to have strong burst + TT combo... Thats why developers leaved some weakness in SW which now shine as brightest start in sky.

So mod 4 and mod 5, Warlock strong side where strong encounters, strong at wills, strong daily powers. But his casting speed, lacking CC where his weakness. And thats how where more less balancing between others.
Before mod 6, there where no players with over 15k power. Majority CW's where with ~9k power, but due it's CC and class features could deal lot of dmg. While SW had higher brutal/raw power/crit stats.

With mod 6 introduction and curve stat recalculation, everything changed, also due life steal rework, all glass cannons where wiped. No more ~2k def, some life steal and having no problem to clear any dungeon.. Players where forced to build proper set up for their characters.. At mod 6, it where gold age for CW, DC and tanks once again returned back to business.

With mod 6 warlocks received so long desired powers with CC elements. Firstly we received arm of hadar which helped a lot.
Latter we received hadar grasp which is same as CW's entangling force, and it where mainly to replace harrowstorm in pvp.

And in next modules sw had no changes, only some powers adjusments. Developers do try buff damanation but forgot test possible power interaction with other supporters, which lead to glitch and overperformance.
Famous TT>HG > KF/SS combo which killed Demogorgon in ~3s. Also because some testers didn't reported it and allowed to get in live server. And latter SW's where called overpowered...

In mod 10 SW' rebalancing, Amenar had only 1 month to rebalancing this class. which is way to short time. And what we did only, fixed Tyrannical curse to how it had to be for real. And due losing 70% of it's possible dmg, we received other powers buffing, and it where just to compensate what we lost after reworking TT to TC.

In other words, SW most of good times where illusion, players relayed on glitched powers and nothing more..

warlock need change that Curse mechanic should be more optional rather requirement. Because with furry, if you attack cursed target you deal big dmg, if you hit non curse = HAMSTER dmg. YOu can curse up to 3 targets, thats mean your real dmg is limited to up 3 targets only. Also in pvp firstly you need curse/mark and only then hit. This gap is tactical disadvantage, and SS curse consume also big flaw.

The one of best way to see how bad Curse mechanic is, require to pick Curse bite encounter. It shows how poor this mechanic work.

schietindebux · February 2017

xrawcarnage said:
I find this wrong. My aoe puts me ahead on every class but a good gwf and even a good hr in msva can keep up with me in single targets. Now my question to y'all , what is your single target rotation? I'm curious to see if you all do things similar to me.

It depends on the party I run with.
If it is one of those speed setups, I can´t use TT at all, the mobs die like flies in seconds.
The only moment I can dps is on the boss, being SB I run Spirits, BoVA+SS+KF. Doing so I am below a good GWF in single target dps.
A good CW and GWF melts trash far better and normally you should have issues to hold against him in a good group.
But my setup is not maxed, running dark revelry, no Deamonlord set and no fire archon with adorable bite gear, wich is needed to be BIS dps, only loyal avenger on a sellsword.
I also admit, that I carry the aoe away from group, wich is rarely seen by another class

pyrosorcerer · February 2017

Parked my SW on a shelf and play my DC for the moment. Maybe SW will become better, but atm I feel rather useless compared to other equally geared classes.

ghoulz66 · February 2017

pyrosorcerer said:
Parked my SW on a shelf and play my DC for the moment. Maybe SW will become better, but atm I feel rather useless compared to other equally geared classes.

Damned stupid owlbear cub is only reason why my CW, HR, and DC don't laugh at my hellbinder.... Yes, even my DC laughs at the dps output of my SW with that bonus inactive.

taitinhakkaaja · February 2017

I haven't played this game since last summer and looks like there is no reason to comeback. What about pvp with sw? same old?

schietindebux · February 2017

Near noone does PVP, so it´s hard to tell

Try next year.

Unknown · February 2017

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terrasight · February 2017

@kolatmaster @fernuu

Please say something about it...it can't be that I'm the only one feeling doing fine with the SW. As I said: Yes we lost...yes curse mechanic is meehh... and yes I hope we will get stronger again and for sure I not like all the "fixes" in the past but... we can do it. In my opinion we can shine most in high tier dungeons with strong mobs. I often play in 4k groups FBI/MSVA and I always can stand against the other classes in similar IL...

In lower dungeons sometimes I'm only 2nd or 3rd... because the mobs are dying this fast that faster classes have more advantage. But who cares?

We are not that strong like Mod9 or 10, but we're NOT low tier. We got nerfs and fixes... but I don't wanna cry and hide under a stone. I go and take a look what I have and getting the most out of it. I've learned A TON the last moths here, helped me a lot...reading, testing...

Ok, I'm on PS4...maybe there's a difference on PC about it...

tenetomb · February 2017

I see lots of SW saying that they are performing well here and I completely agree with them !
I'm still top dps (maybe right behind huge GWFs) ! Yes, only on FBI and MSva where I have time to attack but I'm okay with this.
The problem is that I'm still top dps because of a bug : TC still has some weird interactions with power. When I run with 2 DCs or DC/OP, I deal insane and illogical damages with TC.
So, nothing changed after "fixes".

But that's not the point.

@etelgrin was saying that we were weakened with each patch and I completely agree with this too !

When SW was released, it was completely broken but then, balanced and was performing nice as top dps till mod 5.
Then, on mod 6, SW was hard nerfed and only viable because of bugs. This lasted till mod 9.
Mod 10 rework brought a new playstyle and corrected some bugs but was also a little but toning down SW.
Mod 10.5, nothing but a "fix" on the TC.
But now, on mod 11, SW isn't getting anything since WE are completely worthless for him. And this time, I'm sure that even with TC bug, SW will be far behind CW and GWF.

We just have to wait for TC to be finally corrected to be completely useless...
And to be clear : this time, I'm not speaking about being top dps. I'm just speaking about being at least viable.

terrasight · February 2017

We'll see... can't tell and Mod11 takes a while to come out on PS4. Long time to look on other SWs on PC and how they're doing...

But to be honest: Most of my damage I'm doing not with TC... on bosses I'm not using it anymore. And if I lay back after 1st phase MSVA, on boss I can come back...

Don't know... what all think should change to be equal to the other classes?

xrawcarnage · February 2017

Well we will be dropping lower on the paingiver charts come mod 11. All the huge updates to weapon enchants and none of them help us at all. Supposedly they kill our multi proc. So with that being said, all other classes will be gaining a buff while we sit where we are at.

As of now I am 99.99 % of the time in first place regardless of what dungeon tier I'm running. So this nerf we have been receiving sucks cause it's work to get there (which I'm good with) but don't buff all dps classes but ours! Makes no sense ffs

werdandi · February 2017

terrasight#2000 said:

Don't know... what all think should change to be equal to the other classes?

My current damage is fine as long as the mobs don't die too fast (and if there are not many fast-attacking classes)... This implies that I can shine (and catch up) only during boss fight or if I can use killing flames with a perfect timing against lower HP mobs.
I do love my SW because it is my main but all my guildies don't believe me when I tell them I have to struggle (they think that the SW nerf is imaginary).
With the WE changes, GWF (who were already at top) and some other classes are likely to hit way harder and we will be left behind.
As I love my class, I will keep on playing with anyway.

To be equal, I would suggest some of the following ideas:
- the encounters CD could be reduced
- Faster encounter/dailies animation (for example arms of hadar is VERY slow and so is TC) so we can compete with fast-attacking classes
- overall damage of spells (including at-wills, encounters and dailies) increased by 5 to 10% ?
- Dailies damage increased by 10-15% ?

- or add some leader/controller aptitudes so that we can be desirable in a group (e.g. a SW in a party will lower the DR of all foes because of his/her dark aura ^^ ; or "now your at-will powers have a chance to summon zombie hands popping from the ground that will grab the feet of your enemy for 4 seconds, thus immobilizing him" ).

Unknown · February 2017

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terrasight · February 2017

Agree...good ideas. Hopefully it will be come to the devs... (yeah I know...but hope dies at last...).

werdandi · February 2017

etelgrin said:
If you think Arms of Hadar is slow animation I reccomend you trying out Harrowstorm, I never seen an encounter power so much hamsterlicious as this one in terms of casting, casting time, casting animation and how easily it gets cancelled.

Haha, I totally forgot about this spell, obviously because of its awful casting time.

schietindebux · February 2017

It´s not about dying hope. I like playing Warlock. At some bossencounter I beat most GWF´s like Hati and Drufi, because, DOT´s tick all time, even when she goes crazy and runs up and down. I just won´t subscribe our class to be top-dps atm.
About mod 11 I can´t tell what will happen. If those weapon enchants scale with power TR and GWF will be ahead, since those classes can achieve far higher powerstats than we do. GWF by feats like Steely defense (+20% from defense) and Disciple of War (+25% from recovery and arp), wich leads to a pretty nice powerbuff and may be one reason why this class is in advance atm.
TR can achieve powerstats like 300k+,saw this even in a bossfight, no clue how this "bug" exactly works, I bet this will lead to pretty broken setups
CW benfits from multiprocs ....and warlock got it´s encounter nerfed to be useless by using Lightningenchant and Bilethorn

tenetomb · February 2017

Oh and guys, I saw a lot of complaints about encounters not multiproccing WE anymore but don't worry, even before that, I tested A LOT every WE on every patch and I never found out any to be better than Vorpal/Dread.

I think the problem isn't SW not proccing a lot but CW and GWF proccing WE too much. They aren't WAI for sure.

mrshabok · February 2017

We'll see how it shakes out. But the relative DPS reduction is yet another reason I'm staying with Temp for a while. SW isn't going to get any more love anytime soon I don't think. It's more likely that some of these feats, which have become OP with the stats/powercreep, will get looked at before SW gets anything else. Honestly I'm ok with that. Content is already laughably easy even for low-mid 3k.

ghoulz66 · February 2017

Wish the damn puppet could crit. It wouldn't even come close to the damage it used to do with it still.

xxgolden1xx · February 2017

I agree with the OP. They were designed to decimate foes. At least that's what I thought. In my mind I thought a CW and HR would excel in trash mobs but get smoked in single target. That is not the case though a very good HR can keep up and or even beat us in single target ie...svardborg or MSVA. That isn't the only class we are truly falling behind. Now please understand I can top pain giver 9/10 runs but I am also geared better than most I am a bis warlock. The class truly does need a rework if you want to deal damage the only viable path is fury yet that needs a slight rework. Temptation and damnation both need a complete overhaul.

ghoulz66 · February 2017

xxgolden1xx said:
I agree with the OP. They were designed to decimate foes. At least that's what I thought. In my mind I thought a CW and HR would excel in trash mobs but get smoked in single target. That is not the case though a very good HR can keep up and or even beat us in single target ie...svardborg or MSVA. That isn't the only class we are truly falling behind. Now please understand I can top pain giver 9/10 runs but I am also geared better than most I am a bis warlock. The class truly does need a rework if you want to deal damage the only viable path is fury yet that needs a slight rework. Temptation and damnation both need a complete overhaul.

Even the lazy class description in character creation says you want to do damage....

tom · February 2017

What i want to see are some usefull classfeats wich increase our dmg. They could easily close the gap by giving us a classfeat that ups the dmg by like 15-20%

tenetomb · February 2017

@tom#6998 If they began by correcting MF and PB now underperforming, we already could be getting like 3-5% more dps...

Then if they could rework Critical Promise and/or Daughter's promises, it would be great!
(Why not make one of them working like old Creeping Death and deal 10% of our necrotic damage after several seconds ?)

finalfantasyac7 · March 2017

I have all classes lv70 and love playing my sw the most.
Sw created after playing with other classes for a long time and now when i've mastered the class i can't stop playing with it.

Pve: http://xboxclips.com/FinalFantasyAC7/49aafd96-eca5-4c9b-a426-46bcc95c1caa
Out damaged a 3.5k gwf, 38.3m damage done.
Out healed dc, 9.4m healed (self helaing)
Out tanked pally, 11.6m damage taken.

Pvp:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=os9_y0jD_aE

Note: im 4.2k Soulbinder hybrid fury and fully pvp specced.

Second video fighting high geared pvp players, see how i tank a hr with piercing blade and tr dunk.
For those who say why i have recorded this vid. I was pugging so i expected to have a bad (very bad) team and we were against a high geared premade group. Video shows that sw aren't weak.
Btw, i could kill them all in time if they didn't had a dc

So.... if you think the sw class is weak both pvp and pvp then you're wrong. You just need to learn and understand the class you're playing.

tenetomb · March 2017

@finalfantasyac7 I don't know anything about pvp since I stopped with insigna's income but I know your pve spells aren't optimized at all !

Then, you outdps a GWF ok but he isn't even in party...

Assuming you were already outdpsing him before he left, your party doesn't seem to be really good in average (which can be seen by the slow boss kill).

So, I don't think you're mastering your class more than anyone else. You're just not playing at bis level. (In pve, one more time)

PS : You're on Xbox. Which means you're not on mod 11 and have WE enhancement.

Every update and class balance, SW becomes weaker

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