and we still don't have a conclusive answer about what is actually better dex or orcus set. we have a lot of opinions and feels but it would be nice to have actual data. even if it isn't a HUGE thing it still may be better than 4 dex.
and we still don't have a conclusive answer about what is actually better dex or orcus set. we have a lot of opinions and feels but it would be nice to have actual data. even if it isn't a HUGE thing it still may be better than 4 dex.
The awkward and Relic Armorless until recently one and I have talked about set bonuses a bit recently.
He told me Orcus tends to suffer in that the DoT skills that Trappers apply (ex: Thorned Roots) only use the damage bonuses from when the DoTs were first applied. So, for Trappers, this tends to be at the start of fights, when Orcus has no effect on a Trapper's DPS (unless you Trappers happen to start every fight at near death), which makes the Orcus set a 2 million AD waste for a Trapper.
I can't tell you if it increases your overall DPS, since I suck at HRs. The damage bonus of O
For the Combat HRs, I recently saw Sume, who rekt everything as usual. He was using an Orcus set, if it helps your guys' discussion.
And the awkward one himself does pretty well with the Lostmauth set.
Im sure you can do perfectly well with any of the sets.
the roots are "first" applied over and over and over again. we move thru rotations and the rooted things never last for more than a second or two before a new layer is applied. I've been in parties where a second or two was all it takes to bring down everything but that's probably 5 or 10 percent of the parties I'm in. (and I prefer it that way melts are nice now and again but kinda of boring, and you get stuck in this place of trying to keep up with the joneses and feeling like you have to make a showing.. it feels pointlessly competitive. lol. If I were in those kinds of parties all the time I think I'd be set up very differently. I think I probably would go combat build.
I think the amount of HR's that are actually in those high melt parties exclusively is a very very small number of hr's over all and of them trappers a number that's probably even smaller.
Again (back to sets and belts) I'd like to see some actual numbers. Everyone is focused on the root mechanics because roots are our main damage. but it's possible that the orcus set makes other types of damage more significant for us along with our rooted damage.
Then again maybe not. I'd just like to see something conclusive other than opinions on the matter. I'd like to see testing side by side with the dex plus 4 and the orcus set and the lostmauth set all compared in an apples to apples kind of way with some hard numbers behind it. To me, whether or not it is better in a high melt situation is irrelevant. No one thing really matters in a high melt situation. the synergies of a high il group, make it so that no matter what melting will happen. Even if you have your belt off the melt is gonna melt. Who gets the highest numbers is kind of an epeen achievement there nothing else because it becomes a force of nature. lol
but there was that dude who tested his lm set vs his orcus set with act and he found orcus was 8% better than LM. so to me that says it's worth looking at the overall picture. I'm skeptical of word of mouth on these things without seeing any kind of comparison basis other than people swearing by this or that and because the person is high ranking it must be true. I find it very strange that this test hasn't happened for HRs already. it's been like a year now. lol.
I am going to test the three against each other unscientifically (since I don't have act) but I have the belt nearly orange. I have the orcus set now (not yet at highest level next month) and I currently have lm. but it's all at next double refinement. I guess I can start recording my scores at the end of regular runs of etos, cn and elol as a baseline. wasted 2 mil or not.. meh. I have disposable income. lol. what else am I gonna spend it on? keys? lol
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gabrieldourdenMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,212Arc User
edited February 2017
Orcus set is always around 7-8% of my damage in dungeons (FBI and CN runs mainly checked). I never get the theoretical 10%. A guildie with basically the same build (full trapper) and around 90% crit probability gets 7-8% from Lostmauth. My guess is that at high crit percentages the two sets are pretty close in general in terms of damage dealt by the set bonus. The stats allocation is another matter and depends on the rest of equipment and boons. At current stage Lathander is probably my favourite set. Everything melts anyway fast enough and Lathander helps against one shots.
Le-Shan: HR level 80 (main)
Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
Orcus set is always around 7-8% of my damage in dungeons (FBI and CN runs mainly checked). I never get the theoretical 10%. A guildie with basically the same build (full trapper) and around 90% crit probability gets 7-8% from Lostmauth. My guess is that at high crit percentages the two sets are pretty close in general in terms of damage dealt by the set bonus. The stats allocation is another matter and depends on the rest of equipment and boons. At current stage Lathander is probably my favourite set. Everything melts anyway fast enough and Lathander helps against one shots.
Not sure where you're getting the 7-8% from Lostmauth from. I'm currently sporting 100% crit, and it's, at best, 1% of my total damage output during FBI or CN.
Edit: The problem is that run wise, it's never going to be apples to apples. You're never going to be doing the exact same thing, and neither are your teammates. I run a bunch of FBIs with the same group of people, and the results are never the same. Sometimes I close in on our SW, sometimes I do much less. That's why I need a data sample as large as possible.
Isaac the Adequate - Level 70 Oath of Protection Paladin
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never going to completely be apples to apples but you can get a mean. I'd isolate it to the same type of group. but not a instamelt group. I'm paying attention to my scores now and in various dungeons I tend to be within a million or so of my score no matter who i'm running with in a midlevel party. like everyone mid 3kish.
today I went ahead and used a chunk of saved rp and got my dex belt orange. I also switched out my horn for the red dragon arti. since I'm overloaded on arpen. I recorded some numbers from lm earlier in the day and then ran a bunch of pugs just now. some of my earlier runs were guild runs and some were partial pugs. later with the dex belt were all pugs but no terrible teams. I was ending up with partial pugs from other well known guilds.
I'm gonna switch back and forth some more and if I do some partial pugs or guild runs with the same people tomorrow I'll switch back and forth a few times but preliminarily I seem to be doing 5 to 10 percent worse with the dex belt.
today doing a ton of edemo. lots of variation in the types of people playing in the first few runs. if there was a tank or no tank. variation swung by a couple million each way. last two runs were nearly identical people and situation. undergeared people no effective tank. lol. those runs were identical between dex and lm. I'm gonna keep switch back and forth and recording scores until I get my demo set but man.. right now it really looks the same to me no matter what way you go within a million or so no matter what. the variation I'm seeing looks the same as if I were not switching between sets.
Sumes logic is flawed. While his tests were on point he forgot that the DEX Belt doesn't straight up increase your damage. It increases your "Damage Bonus" stat by +4.28%.
Damage Bonus is a stat that doesn't show up on your stat sheet. It's the sum of Your Ability scores and Power. Heres the problem: If you are running with several sources of Power Gain (Power share DC, Power Share OP(less important for HRs), Dark Revelry) the amount of "Damage Bonus" you will have will be very high. At that point DEX becomes less and less important. This is basic math. With all of the above power-share buffs going on Orcus would be significantly better since it's buff still multiplies off of "Damage Bonus" instead of just adding like the DEX belt. Especially on a Combat HR.
The DEX Belt will become almost completely useless unless you are carrying PUGS or soloing. But wait, the Orcus set gives you +2 CON (4% Max HP) and 2,5% Deflect. For soloing or carrying PUGS you won't get around building defensive stats. Due to the increase Orcus provides to your survivability it outperforms the DEX Belt here as well. I understand that you can't solo/carry dungeons on low IL, and you won't play with crazy buff groups on low IL, however you won't be able to afford this set on low IL either. There is a time and place for the DEX Belt though! If survivability is no issue and there are little to no buffs going on in your group or if you are far from surviving fights with little to no buffs going on. Other than that, Orcus > DEX.
Except that Orcus (and Lostmauth) don't proc set bonus damage off DoT (such as thorned roots or bleed damage), so the extra dex is going to boost the damage for any build that favors DoT over strike damage compared to the sets. Additionally, the extra dex will give you more deflect, which also helps with survivability.
I can see Orcus surpassing the Dex belt for Archery (who uses very little DoT) and to a lesser extent Combat (especially if you are Stormwarden) but for Trapper it can't possibly compete.
I sold my orcus shard today, makes me a sad panda I wanted that set but I'm left convinced that all of these options are basically equal for a trapper. we have no honestly bis options as far as I can tell. whatever suits the stats you need is more important.
at least that's my takeaway. of course, If the price drops even more I may do it just because. lol. for some reason I really want this set. lol
With the changes to weapon enchants, dread and vorpal may no longer be BIS, which will also change the rotations we use... so orcus might become more effective.
Damage bonus from ability scores (dexterity) and damage bonus from power are not the same
They are indeed the exact same stat. Do you have any proof to debunk what i have said? Have you tested this before? If you really want to I can set some tests up to prove this to you but I rather have you test this yourself.
Except that Orcus (and Lostmauth) don't proc set bonus damage off DoT (such as thorned roots or bleed damage), so the extra dex is going to boost the damage for any build that favors DoT over strike damage compared to the sets. Additionally, the extra dex will give you more deflect, which also helps with survivability.
I can see Orcus surpassing the Dex belt for Archery (who uses very little DoT) and to a lesser extent Combat (especially if you are Stormwarden) but for Trapper it can't possibly compete.
This is only partialy correct. In high end groups, the amount of power you have can become so high (in the current meta) that simply having the Orcus set bonus apply to one or two powers (Steel Breeze and Plant Growth for example) will result in a lot more damage than what the DEX Belt would have to offer.
Also, deflect as a defensive stat for PvE is heavily underperforming. If you want to increase your survivability you will stack Defense and HP.
I have ran additional tests and I do believe that I was indeed wrong. I must have mixed some numbers up on my earlier tests. However, the post you linked didn't provide clear evidence on this subject either. As far as I could tell someone simply stated that this would work this way, which is obviously no proof. I am interested in seeing where exactly you have extracted proof from that post. So please show me if you don't mind.
Here are my tests on this subject: Test based on Seismic-shots MAX-range damage. 3/3 Disciple of Dexterity; (Ability scores multiplied by 1.07) Dragonborn; Power increased by 3% (800 Power turns into 825) Power DEX MAXDMG INC TO BASE VALUE CHANGE 1) 30133 15 32890 0 BASE VALUE 2) 30958 15 33277 0.01176649438 Added 800 Power 3) 30133 17 33499 0.01851626634 Added 2 DEX 4) 30958 17 33894 0.03052599574 Added 800 Power and 2 DEX Based on my recent assumptions adding 800 Power and 2 DEX should have resulted in a similar increase to your damage. This, however, is not the case. Infact, the return in adding 2 DEX compared to 800 Power was about 58%(?) higher. On top of that, if both were additive, adding .01176649438 + .01851626634 should result in .03052599574. This is not the case, the result is slightly lower. If you multiply the results from test 2) and 3) you will end up with 4). This is pretty much proof that both Damage Bonus values are multiplying.
However. This doesn't really solve this threads problem. I would go as far as to say that if you only cared about your outgoing damage, the DEX Belt would be slightly better in most situations if you can transform your overflow ArmorPen into Power, Crit, Recovery (depending on build and what not). This still depends on what rotation and content.
I have ran additional tests and I do believe that I was indeed wrong. I must have mixed some numbers up on my earlier tests. However, the post you linked didn't provide clear evidence on this subject either. As far as I could tell someone simply stated that this would work this way, which is obviously no proof. I am interested in seeing where exactly you have extracted proof from that post. So please show me if you don't mind.
Here are my tests on this subject: Test based on Seismic-shots MAX-range damage. 3/3 Disciple of Dexterity; (Ability scores multiplied by 1.07) Dragonborn; Power increased by 3% (800 Power turns into 825) Power DEX MAXDMG INC TO BASE VALUE CHANGE 1) 30133 15 32890 0 BASE VALUE 2) 30958 15 33277 0.01176649438 Added 800 Power 3) 30133 17 33499 0.01851626634 Added 2 DEX 4) 30958 17 33894 0.03052599574 Added 800 Power and 2 DEX Based on my recent assumptions adding 800 Power and 2 DEX should have resulted in a similar increase to your damage. This, however, is not the case. Infact, the return in adding 2 DEX compared to 800 Power was about 58%(?) higher. On top of that, if both were additive, adding .01176649438 + .01851626634 should result in .03052599574. This is not the case, the result is slightly lower. If you multiply the results from test 2) and 3) you will end up with 4). This is pretty much proof that both Damage Bonus values are multiplying.
However. This doesn't really solve this threads problem. I would go as far as to say that if you only cared about your outgoing damage, the DEX Belt would be slightly better in most situations if you can transform your overflow ArmorPen into Power, Crit, Recovery (depending on build and what not). This still depends on what rotation and content.
Im on xbox so I'm not going to try to verify the equation. At the same time, why would I even bother to prove something thats been established and verified multiple times for 8+ mods?
Not sure anything has been established and verified. 50 Helens just agreed is all lol. The hope of this thread was to find the actual numbers that proved something one way or another
Any more information on this? I'm running full Lostmauth and I'm considering a change to either Orcus (I have full set in bank from drops) or Dex belt. A definitive answer would be fantastic as double RP is right around the corner on Xbox. (4k HR - mostly BiS all over - 100% crit Trapper - adjusting for stat changes in equipment is not a problem)
I've been told Dex > LM > Orcus many times, but I've heard and seen many conflicting opinions. This is the best data-based thread I've seen on the topic.
he is a die hard advocator of using dex belt. I don't have have the demo set geared up yet but switching between LM and dex I don't see a lot of difference. some scenarios are better for dex some are better for LM. but not by a lot. ymmv of course.. but I don't think it matters between those two at least.
Gear wise I have only one more change to make and it's to add AC and retain Pwr/Recovery by way of Greater Lathander's cloak. If I was to change, it would be to something that benefits the group comp.
Presently, I am on a quest to reach 38K power and our fast approaching 2xRefinement weekend should help.
@reconjsh#7545 Yeah, I recall your name yesterday. I was half awake for all of that. I was not paying attention, did not notice what I had looted.
the trick is to achieve 60 % armor pen and 95 % crit 1st no mater the set you want with everything up crit to be @ 95 to 100% with bonding and you want it to stay there through out the fight. Then stack your power you got to get 50 plus power up with bonding and maintain it through the fight work on these stats and keep then there no mater the fight I have 3 sets full los dex belt and Orcus with each set it requires me change every thing around to achieve the above goals on full combat pve dex belt and orcus are neck in neck with orcus getting the nod due to PVP orcus is better los is not there with trapper per act Dex belt gets the win damage is with in 1 % of each of other 2 sets and you can stack an AC neck piece and get power deflect and lifesteal with Ac 8
exceptions Orcus clear winner in Dragon Flight and MSVA and PVP due to longer single battle with pvp or monster below 1/2 health damage up 12% verse 7% of other 2 sets and in PVP makes you much more tanky with deflect build you become most annoying thing on planet next to high level CW with repel Ice knife So lesson is what ever improves your Crit sev crit chance and power and 60 % AR pen are best because all 3 sets make you have to test and adjust so which ever gets you closest to goal is what you should be using
Comments
and Relic Armorless until recentlyone and I have talked about set bonuses a bit recently.He told me Orcus tends to suffer in that the DoT skills that Trappers apply (ex: Thorned Roots) only use the damage bonuses from when the DoTs were first applied. So, for Trappers, this tends to be at the start of fights, when Orcus has no effect on a Trapper's DPS (unless you Trappers happen to start every fight at near death), which makes the Orcus set a 2 million AD waste for a Trapper.
I can't tell you if it increases your overall DPS, since I suck at HRs. The damage bonus of O
For the Combat HRs, I recently saw Sume, who rekt everything as usual. He was using an Orcus set, if it helps your guys' discussion.
And the awkward one himself does pretty well with the Lostmauth set. (Good) DPS GFs exist?
(Also, in addition to the good ability scores, Orcus set scales well with those classes' inherent bonuses for hitting targets with low health.)
the roots are "first" applied over and over and over again. we move thru rotations and the rooted things never last for more than a second or two before a new layer is applied. I've been in parties where a second or two was all it takes to bring down everything but that's probably 5 or 10 percent of the parties I'm in. (and I prefer it that way melts are nice now and again but kinda of boring, and you get stuck in this place of trying to keep up with the joneses and feeling like you have to make a showing.. it feels pointlessly competitive. lol. If I were in those kinds of parties all the time I think I'd be set up very differently. I think I probably would go combat build.
I think the amount of HR's that are actually in those high melt parties exclusively is a very very small number of hr's over all and of them trappers a number that's probably even smaller.
Again (back to sets and belts) I'd like to see some actual numbers. Everyone is focused on the root mechanics because roots are our main damage. but it's possible that the orcus set makes other types of damage more significant for us along with our rooted damage.
Then again maybe not. I'd just like to see something conclusive other than opinions on the matter. I'd like to see testing side by side with the dex plus 4 and the orcus set and the lostmauth set all compared in an apples to apples kind of way with some hard numbers behind it. To me, whether or not it is better in a high melt situation is irrelevant. No one thing really matters in a high melt situation. the synergies of a high il group, make it so that no matter what melting will happen. Even if you have your belt off the melt is gonna melt. Who gets the highest numbers is kind of an epeen achievement there nothing else because it becomes a force of nature. lol
but there was that dude who tested his lm set vs his orcus set with act and he found orcus was 8% better than LM. so to me that says it's worth looking at the overall picture. I'm skeptical of word of mouth on these things without seeing any kind of comparison basis other than people swearing by this or that and because the person is high ranking it must be true. I find it very strange that this test hasn't happened for HRs already. it's been like a year now. lol.
I am going to test the three against each other unscientifically (since I don't have act) but I have the belt nearly orange. I have the orcus set now (not yet at highest level next month) and I currently have lm. but it's all at next double refinement. I guess I can start recording my scores at the end of regular runs of etos, cn and elol as a baseline. wasted 2 mil or not.. meh. I have disposable income. lol. what else am I gonna spend it on? keys? lol
At current stage Lathander is probably my favourite set. Everything melts anyway fast enough and Lathander helps against one shots.
Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
And @thefiresidecat : I'm working on it! Don't pressure me!
Edit: The problem is that run wise, it's never going to be apples to apples. You're never going to be doing the exact same thing, and neither are your teammates. I run a bunch of FBIs with the same group of people, and the results are never the same. Sometimes I close in on our SW, sometimes I do much less. That's why I need a data sample as large as possible.
never going to completely be apples to apples but you can get a mean. I'd isolate it to the same type of group. but not a instamelt group. I'm paying attention to my scores now and in various dungeons I tend to be within a million or so of my score no matter who i'm running with in a midlevel party. like everyone mid 3kish.
I'm gonna switch back and forth some more and if I do some partial pugs or guild runs with the same people tomorrow I'll switch back and forth a few times but preliminarily I seem to be doing 5 to 10 percent worse with the dex belt.
today doing a ton of edemo. lots of variation in the types of people playing in the first few runs. if there was a tank or no tank. variation swung by a couple million each way. last two runs were nearly identical people and situation. undergeared people no effective tank. lol. those runs were identical between dex and lm. I'm gonna keep switch back and forth and recording scores until I get my demo set but man.. right now it really looks the same to me no matter what way you go within a million or so no matter what. the variation I'm seeing looks the same as if I were not switching between sets.
Character: Vendetta
Character: Vendetta
"You mine the black ice, voice from nowhere!" Love it!
Main: Nidara Devilspawn- Ranger
Alt: Aradin Coldblood- Fighter
Alt: Lucrezia Vileborn- Warlock
Damage Bonus is a stat that doesn't show up on your stat sheet. It's the sum of Your Ability scores and Power. Heres the problem:
If you are running with several sources of Power Gain (Power share DC, Power Share OP(less important for HRs), Dark Revelry)
the amount of "Damage Bonus" you will have will be very high. At that point DEX becomes less and less important. This is basic math. With all of the above power-share buffs going on Orcus would be significantly better since it's buff still multiplies off of "Damage Bonus" instead of just adding like the DEX belt. Especially on a Combat HR.
The DEX Belt will become almost completely useless unless you are carrying PUGS or soloing.
But wait, the Orcus set gives you +2 CON (4% Max HP) and 2,5% Deflect. For soloing or carrying PUGS you won't get around building defensive stats. Due to the increase Orcus provides to your survivability it outperforms the DEX Belt here as well.
I understand that you can't solo/carry dungeons on low IL, and you won't play with crazy buff groups on low IL, however you won't be able to afford this set on low IL either.
There is a time and place for the DEX Belt though!
If survivability is no issue and there are little to no buffs going on in your group or if you are far from surviving fights with little to no buffs going on.
Other than that, Orcus > DEX.
EDIT: Contains invalid information!
I can see Orcus surpassing the Dex belt for Archery (who uses very little DoT) and to a lesser extent Combat (especially if you are Stormwarden) but for Trapper it can't possibly compete.
Main: Nidara Devilspawn- Ranger
Alt: Aradin Coldblood- Fighter
Alt: Lucrezia Vileborn- Warlock
at least that's my takeaway. of course, If the price drops even more I may do it just because. lol. for some reason I really want this set. lol
Damage bonus from ability scores (dexterity) and damage bonus from power are not the same
Also, deflect as a defensive stat for PvE is heavily underperforming. If you want to increase your survivability you will stack Defense and HP.
EDIT: Contains invalid information!
They multiply with each other
However, the post you linked didn't provide clear evidence on this subject either. As far as I could tell someone simply stated that this would work this way, which is obviously no proof. I am interested in seeing where exactly you have extracted proof from that post. So please show me if you don't mind.
Here are my tests on this subject:
Test based on Seismic-shots MAX-range damage.
3/3 Disciple of Dexterity; (Ability scores multiplied by 1.07)
Dragonborn; Power increased by 3% (800 Power turns into 825)
Power DEX MAXDMG INC TO BASE VALUE CHANGE
1) 30133 15 32890 0 BASE VALUE
2) 30958 15 33277 0.01176649438 Added 800 Power
3) 30133 17 33499 0.01851626634 Added 2 DEX
4) 30958 17 33894 0.03052599574 Added 800 Power and 2 DEX
Based on my recent assumptions adding 800 Power and 2 DEX should have resulted in a similar increase to your damage.
This, however, is not the case. Infact, the return in adding 2 DEX compared to 800 Power was about 58%(?) higher.
On top of that, if both were additive, adding .01176649438 + .01851626634 should result in .03052599574. This is not the case, the result is slightly lower. If you multiply the results from test 2) and 3) you will end up with 4). This is pretty much proof that both Damage Bonus values are multiplying.
However. This doesn't really solve this threads problem. I would go as far as to say that if you only cared about your outgoing damage, the DEX Belt would be slightly better in most situations if you can transform your overflow ArmorPen into Power, Crit, Recovery (depending on build and what not). This still depends on what rotation and content.
Main: Nidara Devilspawn- Ranger
Alt: Aradin Coldblood- Fighter
Alt: Lucrezia Vileborn- Warlock
I've been told Dex > LM > Orcus many times, but I've heard and seen many conflicting opinions. This is the best data-based thread I've seen on the topic.
What you do with the Orc set is crucial. I feel its a great set for PvE. For PvP, it neatly fills in the stats.
Would I equip it, no.
Teucer (HR)
Presently, I am on a quest to reach 38K power and our fast approaching 2xRefinement weekend should help.
@reconjsh#7545 Yeah, I recall your name yesterday. I was half awake for all of that. I was not paying attention, did not notice what I had looted.
Teucer (HR)
I have 3 sets full los dex belt and Orcus with each set it requires me change every thing around to achieve the above goals on full combat pve dex belt and orcus are neck in neck with orcus getting the nod due to PVP orcus is better los is not there
with trapper per act Dex belt gets the win damage is with in 1 % of each of other 2 sets and you can stack an AC neck piece and get power deflect and lifesteal with Ac 8
exceptions Orcus clear winner in Dragon Flight and MSVA and PVP due to longer single battle with pvp or monster below 1/2 health damage up 12% verse 7% of other 2 sets and in PVP makes you much more tanky with deflect build you become most annoying thing on planet next to high level CW with repel Ice knife
So lesson is what ever improves your Crit sev crit chance and power and 60 % AR pen are best because all 3 sets make you have to test and adjust so which ever gets you closest to goal is what you should be using