pc players with act please weigh in. sets and lack of sets.

thefiresidecat

I've posted about this tons of times. I know it. sorry. I keep hoping that someone who has done the testing with logs will weigh in on this.

I have lostmauth at orange. I got the orcus shard to drop today and planning on levelling a dex belt to test damage with set vs non set but if someone has actually done this with act logs instead of subjective just playing and seeing how you do vs normal... that would be awesome. lol. I'd like to sell the shard before it totally tanks in value if I don't switch over and the next 2x is a month out.

I saw someone write that they did test orcus vs losty and orcus was about 7 percent better than lm. but how does the dex belt do against the set?

anyone??

jaegernl

I've been doing a bit of testing myself, recently, on the Preview server, where the PC players have 'fixed weapon damage' weapons now, meaning there's no range in the damage (always 1000). I don't have the actual logs anymore, but I can share some notes I made while testing the Orcus set. Keep in mind this is preliminary testing, and I will do a second and third test - lack of time, you know how it is - to confirm the findings of the first.

First thing to keep in mind with the Orcus set and the HR is that the value of Damage over Time effects are calculated upon application, and they won't increase as the HP of the mob decreases. This means that, for instance, 'Thorned Roots' will keep on doing the same amount of damage regardless of if the mob drops below the threshhold of when Orcus set should be providing bonus damage. I believe this goes for all damage boosts - Empowered Break the Spirit, etc. The only thing that does affect the damage while the DoT effect is ticking away is effectiveness.

What this all means is that, when applied, roots will do - say - 3000 damage per tick. This value doesn't change at all when the mob HP drops, provided it's the same application of 'Thorned Roots'. However, would you see 'Dark Fire' - the Drow Racial Bonus - proc during this time, or any other *debuff* that would increase effectiveness, you will see an increase in the ticks of damage. Say you would gain a 10% boost in effectiveness - 110% - halfway during Thorned Roots' cycle, it'll hit for 3000 for the first half, and 3300 for the second half.

However, I noticed something odd. Both in the case of 'Thorned Roots' and 'Careful Attack', applying them *after* the mobs HP had dropped significantly - say, they're at 10% - didn't actually increase the value of the 'Thorned Roots' and 'Careful Attack' damage either, while we would be expecting to see an increase in their damage because of the Orcus set triggering. 'Thorned Roots' would still be hitting for 3000. This certainly wasn't what I was expecting, and simply put, means that the Orcus set will actually *lower* your Thorned Roots damage when compared to something like the Golden Belt of Puissance or the Dexterity Belt, as the Orcus set lacks the relevant ability rolls for an HR.

I will be returning to the Preview server to test all remaining HR encounters and at-wills with the Orcus set. I wanted to get Thorned Roots and Careful Attack out of the way, considering they're such a big part of my arsenal. I'm planning to do a write-up of this, as I know myself and many other HRs are considering the Orcus set, but as @thefabricant will tell you, my planning to do a write-up usually ends with me not doing anything at all and waiting for someone else to do it.

jonkoca

Sorry, I have act, have the dex belt... don't have the orcus set. My hr runs with imperial neck, grtr dex belt and assorted artifacts. The post nerf lost mouth set bonus was total rubbish, not even as good as magistrates consideration according to act, but never had the orcus set to test.

wdj40

jaegernl said:

I've been doing a bit of testing myself, recently, on the Preview server, where the PC players have 'fixed weapon damage' weapons now, meaning there's no range in the damage (always 1000). I don't have the actual logs anymore, but I can share some notes I made while testing the Orcus set. Keep in mind this is preliminary testing, and I will do a second and third test - lack of time, you know how it is - to confirm the findings of the first.

First thing to keep in mind with the Orcus set and the HR is that the value of Damage over Time effects are calculated upon application, and they won't increase as the HP of the mob decreases. This means that, for instance, 'Thorned Roots' will keep on doing the same amount of damage regardless of if the mob drops below the threshhold of when Orcus set should be providing bonus damage. I believe this goes for all damage boosts - Empowered Break the Spirit, etc. The only thing that does affect the damage while the DoT effect is ticking away is effectiveness.

What this all means is that, when applied, roots will do - say - 3000 damage per tick. This value doesn't change at all when the mob HP drops, provided it's the same application of 'Thorned Roots'. However, would you see 'Dark Fire' - the Drow Racial Bonus - proc during this time, or any other *debuff* that would increase effectiveness, you will see an increase in the ticks of damage. Say you would gain a 10% boost in effectiveness - 110% - halfway during Thorned Roots' cycle, it'll hit for 3000 for the first half, and 3300 for the second half.

However, I noticed something odd. Both in the case of 'Thorned Roots' and 'Careful Attack', applying them *after* the mobs HP had dropped significantly - say, they're at 10% - didn't actually increase the value of the 'Thorned Roots' and 'Careful Attack' damage either, while we would be expecting to see an increase in their damage because of the Orcus set triggering. 'Thorned Roots' would still be hitting for 3000. This certainly wasn't what I was expecting, and simply put, means that the Orcus set will actually *lower* your Thorned Roots damage when compared to something like the Golden Belt of Puissance or the Dexterity Belt, as the Orcus set lacks the relevant ability rolls for an HR.

I will be returning to the Preview server to test all remaining HR encounters and at-wills with the Orcus set. I wanted to get Thorned Roots and Careful Attack out of the way, considering they're such a big part of my arsenal. I'm planning to do a write-up of this, as I know myself and many other HRs are considering the Orcus set, but as @thefabricant will tell you, my planning to do a write-up usually ends with me not doing anything at all and waiting for someone else to do it.

Nice job If you can post your findings that would be great, i wish i had a pc to test on

thefiresidecat

I've been tempted to start up on there just for that reason.. but man starting the grind from scratch in an old economy.. ugh.

thefiresidecat

jaegernl said:

I've been doing a bit of testing myself, recently, on the Preview server, where the PC players have 'fixed weapon damage' weapons now, meaning there's no range in the damage (always 1000). I don't have the actual logs anymore, but I can share some notes I made while testing the Orcus set. Keep in mind this is preliminary testing, and I will do a second and third test - lack of time, you know how it is - to confirm the findings of the first.

First thing to keep in mind with the Orcus set and the HR is that the value of Damage over Time effects are calculated upon application, and they won't increase as the HP of the mob decreases. This means that, for instance, 'Thorned Roots' will keep on doing the same amount of damage regardless of if the mob drops below the threshhold of when Orcus set should be providing bonus damage. I believe this goes for all damage boosts - Empowered Break the Spirit, etc. The only thing that does affect the damage while the DoT effect is ticking away is effectiveness.

What this all means is that, when applied, roots will do - say - 3000 damage per tick. This value doesn't change at all when the mob HP drops, provided it's the same application of 'Thorned Roots'. However, would you see 'Dark Fire' - the Drow Racial Bonus - proc during this time, or any other *debuff* that would increase effectiveness, you will see an increase in the ticks of damage. Say you would gain a 10% boost in effectiveness - 110% - halfway during Thorned Roots' cycle, it'll hit for 3000 for the first half, and 3300 for the second half.

However, I noticed something odd. Both in the case of 'Thorned Roots' and 'Careful Attack', applying them *after* the mobs HP had dropped significantly - say, they're at 10% - didn't actually increase the value of the 'Thorned Roots' and 'Careful Attack' damage either, while we would be expecting to see an increase in their damage because of the Orcus set triggering. 'Thorned Roots' would still be hitting for 3000. This certainly wasn't what I was expecting, and simply put, means that the Orcus set will actually *lower* your Thorned Roots damage when compared to something like the Golden Belt of Puissance or the Dexterity Belt, as the Orcus set lacks the relevant ability rolls for an HR.

I will be returning to the Preview server to test all remaining HR encounters and at-wills with the Orcus set. I wanted to get Thorned Roots and Careful Attack out of the way, considering they're such a big part of my arsenal. I'm planning to do a write-up of this, as I know myself and many other HRs are considering the Orcus set, but as @thefabricant will tell you, my planning to do a write-up usually ends with me not doing anything at all and waiting for someone else to do it.

your friends on xbox and ps4 will be eternally grateful if you do publish ty for the info

jonkoca

Considering that roots and ca/gushing wound combos are pretty much all of our damage, then forget the orcus set completely.

dmcewen

What about dex vs elol set? Is the 2% bonus damage gained from the dex belt better than the 2% overall damage you can get from elol set? Anyone have any insight or an ACT to prove one case or the other?

thefiresidecat

jonkoca said:

Considering that roots and ca/gushing wound combos are pretty much all of our damage, then forget the orcus set completely.

someone else in another thread with act (a hr) tested with act and the over all damage was 8 percent higher than Lostmauth so I don't think it's the final story. I think it may give other powers more oomph even if not amplifying those particular powers.

jonkoca

I've seen one of my pvp friends with the set, and he's a serious pvp gearhead, so I'm guessing it suits pvp better, where root damage isn't so much of a thing.

PVE wise, you've also got to figure in the awful stats on the orcus set too. Same with the lolset, too much arpen, in Pve, you pretty much get all your arpen for free from your pet, if you use avenger gear. And the control bonus on the artifact is a waste for HRs. Okay, so the lolset if you have 100% crit, adds about 1500 damage to every hit, but then so does magistrates consideration.

schlunzzz

Never find the time to test things exactly. I run wirh elol and its 1-2% of my dmg with 90%krit infight. If anybody is interested i would share 1-2 shards on the preview. Not sure how much we have in the bank.

thefiresidecat

I'm at 96 to just over 100 percent crit in battle and I agree the arpen is too much on hte lol set. I haven't tried to stack arpen anywhere. not on me not on my pet and I'm still 90 percent in battle. the orcus stats are bad for what we need for base stats traditionally but if it's really 8 percent more than the lol set in over all damage per run then there is the possibility that that makes up for it at all and we just get some bonus stats in other areas. it doesn't lose crit or power. just arpen and dex. if each dex is 1 percent and it's bonus is 8 percent... I'll try to find that thread again. I think a couple people in this thread were in that one as well.

dmcewen

I need all the arpen that the elol set gives, I'm at between 61.4-61.8 arpen when bindings proc (it fluctuates for some reason). The only arpen I have outside of the set and my companion (704) is a mythic lantern and one epic insignia of aggression. I don't even think I have any arpen boons active. I would lose about 2000 power switching to the orcus set not including the 2 STR from the elol belt.

thefiresidecat

how do you lose 2k power from teh set? according to this

http://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/Artifact_set

power and crit is identical between the two?

I think the gamepedia has been wrong before though maybe I shouldn't look at it for quick reference?

the argument that made the most sense against the orcus set was that it only was going to register for fights that are long enough for the hp difference to come into play. in melty parties your set may not come in to play because everything is dead. (kind of like the cordon dilemma) but for longer boss battles it's still better. I've been contemplating levelling a dex belt and the orcus set and switching out to dex in op parties and using the set in pugs and parties with mostly lower il players.


and I guess I was wrong about not stacking arpen anywhere. i have a piercing necklace on my pet that I meant to switch out for recovery but I guess I never did. lol. in between what my pet has naturally and the necklace it's 1136 on my pet.

dmcewen

@thefiresidecat in order for me to make up the loss in arpen (2060), I would have to exchange power for arpen. The orcus set has zero arpen.

thefiresidecat

@dmcewen I have an air archon at orange as my summoned pet. it has a neck slot and currently piercing (although i'm switching that out to recovery) but taking the neck piece off completely it still transfers over an extra 2200 arpen just naturally.
dunno what you have for a pet or if it has similar stats but that's an option that wouldn't necessarily take away from power.

dmcewen

@thefiresidecat I have a fire archon, the only arpen I get from it is his base of 704.

wdj40

thefiresidecat said:

how do you lose 2k power from teh set? according to this

http://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/Artifact_set

power and crit is identical between the two?

I think the gamepedia has been wrong before though maybe I shouldn't look at it for quick reference?

the argument that made the most sense against the orcus set was that it only was going to register for fights that are long enough for the hp difference to come into play. in melty parties your set may not come in to play because everything is dead. (kind of like the cordon dilemma) but for longer boss battles it's still better. I've been contemplating levelling a dex belt and the orcus set and switching out to dex in op parties and using the set in pugs and parties with mostly lower il players.


and I guess I was wrong about not stacking arpen anywhere. i have a piercing necklace on my pet that I meant to switch out for recovery but I guess I never did. lol. in between what my pet has naturally and the necklace it's 1136 on my pet.

I use the Orcus Set at Legendary and have done for a long time, i have no idea how effective it actually is.

As for people talking about Arm Pen, it is extremely easy to replace on anything. I sit at 4.5k and only have 341 on my Companion... that takes me to 60%, anyhoo if you lose 1k from an Artifact for instance you can make it up so easily from elsewhere

thefiresidecat

IKR! I can't seem to get rid of arpen no matter what I do in battle I'm way above 60.

jaegernl

Alright, I've done some testing on the Orcus set on Preview. Here are my findings:

Basic Rule #1: 'Damage over Time effects are calculated at the moment of application'. This means that, when you're applying a Damage over Time effect, it will take the stats you have - including any buffs - at that time to calculate the power - or damage - of the Damage over Time effect. If you get an additional buff *while* the Damage over Time effect is running, the value of that DoT will not change, unless you reapply the DoT while you have the additional buff. The exception to this is debuffs and/or increases in effectiveness. If you apply a 100/sec DoT on a mob, it'll only *increase* if the mob gets debuffed to have a lower defensive value. For the PC people running ACT, this means your effectiveness will increase from 100% to 100+%. For our brethren on the XBOX or PS4, you can see this by checking your combatlog (Do you guys have that chat tab?). It'll say something along the lines of 'Your Rapid Strike deals 200 (100) damage to Jaegernl's Ego'. This means you're hitting at 200% effectiveness.

At-wills: Rapid Strike/Shot - Split Strike/Shot - Aimed Strike/Shot and Hunter's Teamwork are affected by the Orcus Set. The DoT effect of Aimed Strike will *not* increase if the HP of the mob drops during it's effect, but will increase if Aimed Strike is reapplied when the mob has dropped in Health. This is consistent with what I mentioned earlier about Damage Over Time Effects being calculated on the time of activation, and they will not respect buffs, but will respect debuffs.

Important note: Careful Attack and it's follow up procs will *NOT* apply the Orcus set damage buff.

Dailies: Seismic Shot - Disruptive Shot - Slasher's Mark are affected by Orcus set.

Important note: Forest Ghost will *NOT* apply the Orcus set damage buff. Secondary note: Did not (yet) test Cold Steel Hurricane. I will do that in a follow up test when I try to find out how Blade Storm behaves.

Encounters: Encounters will generally respect the Orcus set bonus, with the following exceptions:

1) Rain of Arrows: Rain of Arrows will only apply the Orcus set buff on the *first* arrow that falls from the sky. The rest of the hits will return to the basic damage value.

2) Thorn Strike: Thorn Strike seems to behave erraticly, probably caused by it's own 'mini-Orcus' bonus. Thorn Strike has it's own increase in damage as the monster HP drops. It seems that sometimes it will apply just Thorned Strike's bonus, sometimes it'll apply Orcus set bonus, and sometimes both. The results on this one were very odd, to say the least (Yes, I made sure the monsters were at the same percentage of HP each time). I will try to chase down what happened during my following testing run.

3) Thorn Ward: Thorn Ward seems to behave differently to the rule stated above about DoT effects. Each hit of Thorn Ward is calculated seperatly, which means that as the monster HP decreases, it'll recalculate the difference between yourself and the monster, and use that difference to determine the bonus Orcus set gives. This basicly means that, as the monster HP drops, the damage from Thorn Ward goes up. On first glance this could be accounted for by Thorn Wards debuff, but it was not the culprit. Thorn Ward actually recalculates to apply the correct Orcus buff.

4) Fox Shift: Fox Shift does *NOT* apply the Orcus set buff. At first I thought this might be a similar effect to what we're seeing with Rain of Arrows, so I made sure to use it in a group of mobs. None of the hits were buffed by Orcus. Sad, really, because Fox is a pretty hard-hitting encounter when properly buffed.

5) Gushing Wound: Now, this was the second biggest disappointment of the test. Gushing Wound - neither it's first application nor the follow up bleed - respects the Orcus set bonus. I could find absolutely no difference in values between Orcus equipped or not.

Important note: All of the other encounters *DO* respect Orcus set bonus. Some of these encounters, like Rain of Swords and Bear Trap, have a 'bleed' component, or, like Plant Growth, a Damage over Time effect. These effects all behave according to the above mentioned rule of 'DoT effects get calculated at application', meaning that if you apply these effects when the mob has 100% HP, they will do less damage than when you apply them at 50% HP, if you have the Orcus set equipped. Secondary note: Did not yet test Split the Sky.

Features: The only Feature I tested was Thorned Roots. As I mentioned in an earlier post - calling it preliminary testing - Orcus set did not boost Thorned Roots damage. I found the same this time. I thoroughly went through it, to make absolutely sure, but I could not once find an increase in damage explained by Orcus bonus. This also means that Thorned Roots does not follow the 'DoT effects get calculated at application' rule, as they just ignore the Orcus set altogether. The value of the Thorned Roots ticks was the same, regardless of mob HP, or if the Orcus set was equipped or not.

jaegernl

There's some follow-up I want to leave here as well, as both an invitation for others to test, as a note to myself to test further:

1) Rain of Arrows. Does it behave like mentioned above with other buffs (Master Trapper, Break the Spirit) as well?

2) An invitation to some math wizards to drop a formula here, or to calculate the effect of losing 2 or 4 Dexterity (say, from Golden Belt of Puissance or a Dexterity Belt) on the base value of Thorned Roots, and how that affects it's damage when buffed further by - say - Master Trapper, Break the Spirit - and Combat Advantage and the percentage of Effectiveness.

3) Where do we go from here? I wanted to leave the above here for review. Knowing what the Orcus set does and does not affect is the first step in determining if it is worth it to equip it. This ties in with the second point. Running a fixed rotation on dummies might give an answer, but I'd hardly call that eliminating all the variables. I invite you to give feedback or advice on how to test rotations with the Orcus set further. Just dumping Paingiver charts or a random ACT log might give a general clue, but is still far too subjective.

thefiresidecat

I wonder if that's working as intended or a bug on the thorned roots thing.

big ty for tackling this. I wish we all had these tools!


I have a lm set which I think has been determined to be the worst of the three options. I also have a belt of dex only a couple levels from orange so I can trade my lm for the orcus and upgrade my dex all the way and do some runs of cn. maybe I can find a group of people from my guild or alliance who will commit to running with me like 9 times. three runs of each set up. with everyone only using the same things every run.

the question is should that group consist of normal players heavy hitters or a mix of. I've noticed in a group of heavy hitters I do way worse because I think there is only so much dps to go around and I'm just not as fast as some. but if Im op compared to the rest than it's also inflated because at that point i'm faster than they are just because more stats.

so for a comparison of the stats to see how they are performing what should the ideal set up be? I haven't figured this out yet. I've just noticed in some runs I look like a boss in other runs I look like an abject nub. lol.

Im thinking I'd want a group of normal players (2700-3000) because then as the strongest dps it would be more consistent how much damage I'm doing?

dmcewen

@jaegernl we all appreciate you taking the time to test this stuff. Hopefully a conclusion can be made on which equipment is best.

jaegernl

Not an issue at all. With the fixed weapon damage on Preview, it was pretty easy to test. Besides, with the key changes we had on the PC, Shards of Orcus' Wand have dropped in price significantly, and I was pretty curious about the set myself.

Please keep in mind that the following is considered from a Trapper point-of-view.

Anyway, while mindlessly running some Skirmishes on alts, I had a bit of a think. First off, I was considering the rotation I'm running as a Trapper, which is Constricting/Longstrider's/Hindering with Rapid Strike/Careful Attack and Seismic Shot/Forest Ghost. When we keep in mind the above list of what is and what is not affected by Orcus, we see some issues. In that rotation, the big hitters, that make up for the largest percentage of my damage, are Thorned Roots, Gushing Wound, Careful Attack and probaly Grasping Roots when running FBI. Straight away, we run into trouble, as many of those are unaffected, and I'm, as of yet, unsure of Grasping Roots. I'll test that in a follow up.

I'll be running some FBI over the weekend and keeping screenshots of the ACT logs afterwards, which I will share here. My fear is that the skills that are affected by Orcus - Longstrider's, Hindering Shot, Hindering Strike, Constricting Arrow, Steel Breeze and Seismic Shot - will be such a low percentage of my total damage, as we use them for their effects, not their own damage output, that buffing them through the use of the Orcus set is not worth it at all.

In the mean time, I'll also return to Preview to finish up some feats, and give something like the Combat Capstone a look. It'll be interesting to see if there's a kind of double buff going on there.

thefiresidecat

it might also be interesting to play with some different rotations to see if anything else ends up being better than the bog standard with the set. I also wonder how it does with the trapper/combat high crit hybrid and if under these circumstances it might actually do better with serpents bite instead of thorned roots as the feat for that hybrid?

jonkoca

Thanx a bunch for testing this. Great job.

jaegernl

Just wanted to leave a message to say I hadn't forgotten about this thread and the ACT logs are incoming. I've either been busy, or speedrunning FBI, were I can't use the added hassle/lag of running a Combat Log.

From what I parsed so far, one trend can be seen: As buffs go up, the percentage of my total damage Thorned Roots does goes down. Skills like Hindering Shot/Strike, Seimic Shot, Longstrider's and Constricting Arrow have steadily been becoming a bigger percentage of my total damage output. This is actually fairly easy to explain: As time to kill drops, the amount of ticks Roots is able to do will drop as well. This means that the mentioned skills - which apply their damage instantly - become of greater value in the grand scheme of things. This would point to a greater value of the Orcus set in high buff parties.

This brings us to a rather complicated point: I sincerely doubt the 'more buffs = better Orcus' graph I tried to explain earlier is lineair. For one, once you instantly kill stuff - like is the case for most of the high-end PvE people in the old T2s - Orcus will do nothing. But there's no way in hell I'm going to plot a Time To Kill/Orcus Set Bonus Graph. I'm too HAMSTER at maths to do that.

I'm slightly annoyed I volunteered for this, as the more testing I do, the more questions arise. Oh well.

thefiresidecat

lol I'm glad you did. it's interesting and maybe it will inspire some math wizzes to jump in the fray.

davidagaldo

jaegernl said:

For one, once you instantly kill stuff - like is the case for most of the high-end PvE people in the old T2s - Orcus will do nothing.

This is the reason I did not care to keep the sets that dropped for me. We melt everything too fast. Lower iL gear is what I call it. I never understood why it became a hot item and is why I talked up the Dex belt and AC neck. When Orcus was broken for PC, yeah, awesome. But it never made it to the Box and the fix to Lostmauth was applied. Don't waste ACT time...

I wish the Wisdom belt was pwr/crit/rec for Combat build.

thefiresidecat

not every party is a melt fest for everyone out there. for those of us who don't run in exclusively 4k and up parties it's kind of nice to know. not a waste at all.

jaegernl

davidagaldo said:

jaegernl said:

For one, once you instantly kill stuff - like is the case for most of the high-end PvE people in the old T2s - Orcus will do nothing.

This is the reason I did not care to keep the sets that dropped for me. We melt everything too fast. Lower iL gear is what I call it. I never understood why it became a hot item and is why I talked up the Dex belt and AC neck. When Orcus was broken for PC, yeah, awesome. But it never made it to the Box and the fix to Lostmauth was applied. Don't waste ACT time...

I wish the Wisdom belt was pwr/crit/rec for Combat build.

Well, one of the reasons it became a hot item was it's rarity and because of GWFs, SWs, TRs and DPS GFs. It has (partly) relevant ability rolls for them. People were looking for the 'next best thing' after the Lostmauth set got its fix. It was only a matter of time before HRs started looking at it as well. Between Relic Raid Armor - finally Pow/Crit on every piece for HR - enchants, artifacts, etc., most of us are close or already overstacking on crit anyway.

And I don't consider it wasted ACT time. Regardless of the outcome, the information is useful. We're all trying to optimize our HRs. If it means Orcus outperforms or underperforms, that information will be taken into consideration when we gear HRs. Funny you should mention Combat HR, though, as they're likely to get better mileage out of the Orcus set than a Trapper will.