Food for thought here since some people ask for “accuracy” of the paingiver through a small example.
If a mof debuffer gives you lets say 400% debuff, so you deal a 4.000.000 (1.0000.000) damage on log, who does the extra 3 mil damage belong to? The dps or the debuffer?
Same can be said about every de\buff class in game.
In short I agree there is a need for a change, cause current paingiver shows how much hp you “remove” from the mob/boss and not how much your damage is, but if we are to change it, let the change be right and reflect the performance of all classes as much as possible.
Voodoo MoF debuffer
1
dread4moorMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,154Arc User
Experienced player's can tell if people are doing their job by the flow of the dungeon. We don't need a chart to tell us.
If mobs are spread all over randomly attacking everyone the tank is not doing their job. If a fight is taking foreeeeever the DPS are not doing their job. If a boss is spinning and one-hitting randomly the tank is not doing their job. If everyone's health bars are consistently staying low (excluding one-hits) the healer might not doing their job (or everyone is colorblind). If trash mobs are still standing when the next mobs spawn, the dps are not doing their job.
These are the team-based role performance measures that matter most. Don't need a chart to tell us these.
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
The charts could be better, agreed. But to get rid of what we have bc it is not good enough is no solution.
You say, that the charts tell you nothing. Well, if I run with a DC/GF/ 3 DD combination and it takes forever the charts can tell me if a DD sucks. I dont need some patronizing BS like yes, but X could run ahead or Y buffs. I play long enough to take this into account. If you have 2 4k GWFs in your group and one deals 2-5x the dmg of the other one in a boss fight I know who builds/plays his char better after looking at the paingiver charts.
ACT is better, sure, but if you check the existing charts you can get some information. This is not just about bragging rights and epen. If I see a player perform well, I tend to inspect him and may ask him for his build/ rotation.
I hear ya, asterotg, and with all due respect you are talking about a very situational thing where the charts are barely marginally useful in one specific circumstance; meaning, you have 2 nearly identically played toons in the same class/spec and somehow one of them deals massively more damage than the other.
Meanwhile, 99.99% of the time (when this circumstance doesn't happen) the charts are a detriment. I'm not saying you're wrong, because you're not -- just maybe putting things into perspective a little.
A long-time healer's perspective (currently buff dc):
1- I agree that the charts could use a rework... probably should is better.
2- I agree they fuel the ego problem.
3- I don't believe removing them will solve the problem.
The problems we all face are with the Chart-o-phealiac. These people need charts, they obsess over them, the numbers... they will always exist. Their problems are unrelated to the game itself, but a personality flaw.
They don't move from the red, because the healer is supposed to heal them through everything. They don't move out of the boss's way because the tank is supposed to keep aggro. They are oblivious to the fact that mistakes happen, and when they do happen, everyone needs to react properly. Not just one.
Therefore, the devs might as well figure out a way to provide us with better charts, or better ways to assess and improve ourselves over the course of playing our chosen class. To know how we are performing.
As for the annoying ones, well... i try to keep a list of people not to play with
The only thing that really tells you how the group did in the charts is the little number in the bottom right that shows how long it took you, added with the # of deaths. Because that shows how well you performed as a team.
Founding Member of "Wrong Side of the Stronghold" Ravenskya - TR / Krisha Chaos - OP / Waffles - GF / Dex Domitor - HR Becky the trendy GWF - GWF / Too Toasty - SW / Falcor - DC / Morrigan - CW / Sir Didymus - OP
When will everyone realize charts aren't the problem, people being unable to grasp the concept of being a functional part of a TEAM is the problem. I have played many mmo's for many years and never have I ran into so many selfish rude players/people. There is no chart to resolve this issue. No reward for a proper group doing a flawless run its a dps fest. Sadly the chart will not fix the players it won't stop the zerg and it will be the same. Players are people and until people decide to be team players nothing will change. Just my opinion thanks for your time.
When will everyone realize charts aren't the problem, people being unable to grasp the concept of being a functional part of a TEAM is the problem. I have played many mmo's for many years and never have I ran into so many selfish rude players/people. There is no chart to resolve this issue. No reward for a proper group doing a flawless run its a dps fest. Sadly the chart will not fix the players it won't stop the zerg and it will be the same. Players are people and until people decide to be team players nothing will change. Just my opinion thanks for your time.
The problem is, that this game is for casual players and 95% can run the dungeons with the right group (to carrying them).
In other games you needed BIS gear, a perfect group composition and really experienced players to finish the latest dungeons. I raided for a few years. No one claimed, that you are an elitist, when you did run end content premade. It was the only possible way. Some carried this attitude to NW. Good for them. I saw WOW/ LOTRO etc. raider getting BIS gear in 6 month to a year, while others struggled for years to gear up. The only problem is, when they show the same attitude towards other players, ignoring the fact, that it is not needed.
Here you can run PvE with PvP speccs and solo/ duo most of the game. On the one hand it makes asking for BIS sound like elitsm, bc it is not needed. On the other hand it gave raise to a 'carry me' mentality, where ppl think, that they are entitled to run endgame with inferior speccs/ chars placing the 'burden' of the run to other players. 3k PvP players with PvP gear and PvP spec asking for 4k MOF rene CW, 4k AA AC DC etc., R12 bondings a must have.
Lets agree to one thing. You can play the way you want. Others can play the way they want. If I search for a challenge I run PuG. If I want to do speedruns, I run with other decent PvE players. If you are one of them, good for you, if not I dont HAVE to run with you, just to show how nice I am. If you dont want, you dont have to run with me.
The charts dont force you to play one way or the other. The results dont force a certain behavior. Dont blame the charts. Jerks are jerks and leechers are leechers, with or without numbers to back it up.
Agreed 100% asterotg -- the charts don't force ppl to be jerks. But they sure as hell encourage it. There's no way to know how much, though. Like if that Paingiver thing wasn't there to be bragged about, would players be very slightly or vastly less HAMSTER-lickish? No idea.
Can we take the complaints of player base else where please, I'd like to keep my thread open to suggestions for improvement.
I'd still like to see improvements to the games charts as it would help build and comp testing (more so for console than comp players).
Sorry, you would need something like combat tracker (not likely) or an average % buffs on group and average % debuffs on mobs. If and how this would be possible, no clue, but these detailed information would result in a nerf DC outcry, I am sure.
This thread is starting to sound like, hey let's take the charts away so jerks won't be jerks. JERKS WILL STILL BE JERKS. Maybe the problem is the response to them. Because maybe they are allowed to be jerks just because they have powerful toons and you want them to make your life easier? Take some responsibility.
I'd like it if being a charttopper(bottomer in the case of deaths, heals..) actually gave you power in a group. Not dps power but, more influence over kicking or being kicked. I get pretty annoyed when I run CN on my gwf(2.6k), have 0 deaths, 1 or 2 in dps, least healed, and then right before orcus 2 or 3 people vote kick me out in favor of a guild member being added in. I say keep paingiver and make it actually useful beyond bragging rights.
I think, maybe we are trying too hard to change something that, although imperfect, everyone knows its limitations. Maybe the simpler solution may be to add a "buffed damage leader", that shows how much damage is attributable to buffs from different characters. Keep the paingiver chart, but add this. That way, the DPSers still have their thing, but it gives the buffers their credit and, perhaps, the DPSers so,e perspective that, especially in places like FBI and MSVA, they are way more dependent than they think on the support classes.
I apologize if this has already been suggested.
Lilia Drakon - PVE Executioner TR She Looked Lvl 18
I'd like it if being a charttopper(bottomer in the case of deaths, heals..) actually gave you power in a group. Not dps power but, more influence over kicking or being kicked. I get pretty annoyed when I run CN on my gwf(2.6k), have 0 deaths, 1 or 2 in dps, least healed, and then right before orcus 2 or 3 people vote kick me out in favor of a guild member being added in. I say keep paingiver and make it actually useful beyond bragging rights.
Unless it's a private queue - how are they getting the guild member in by kicking you? If it is a private queue - then I would suggest avoiding those in the future.
Founding Member of "Wrong Side of the Stronghold" Ravenskya - TR / Krisha Chaos - OP / Waffles - GF / Dex Domitor - HR Becky the trendy GWF - GWF / Too Toasty - SW / Falcor - DC / Morrigan - CW / Sir Didymus - OP
0
mamalion1234Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,415Arc User
I offer 1 smop to any champion dc to respec to oracle and show how will protect the party with the absence of the aa.
<blockquote class="Quote" rel="ravenskya"><blockquote class="Quote" rel="ragequittingdc#8599">I'd like it if being a charttopper(bottomer in the case of deaths, heals..) actually gave you power in a group. Not dps power but, more influence over kicking or being kicked. I get pretty annoyed when I run CN on my gwf(2.6k), have 0 deaths, 1 or 2 in dps, least healed, and then right before orcus 2 or 3 people vote kick me out in favor of a guild member being added in. I say keep paingiver and make it actually useful beyond bragging rights.</blockquote>
Unless it's a private queue - how are they getting the guild member in by kicking you? If it is a private queue - then I would suggest avoiding those in the future.</blockquote>
It does sound like a stretch but CN queue's are so few and far apart it's not very difficult to do it like a private invite on a regular pug. this is coming from the ps4 version if you're wondering also.
i've been in groups were we need one, somebody knows a guy, and they just get matched in after a few minutes, and i've been that person on the 0/1 outside, cycling through the same 2-3 groups that have 4 dps idling illithich or orcus camps hoping for a 3k pally/gf
this would require kicking anybody that wasn't who you're looking for, but with only one person having been dropped(me), and willingness to "gang kick", it's only a matter of time.
This thread seems like an entire whine about I'm a poor DPS and i want to hide it.
I only personally compare damage scores if they is two of the same class with similar builds and one has trippled the other then something is majorly wrong and if the group is struggling for DPS it can be a early indication into why.
Usually the wrong build and whack feat cookie cutter build dps are the ones that want it gone because they simply have no idea what they are doing.
Support DPS know they are support and so does the group so that point is also moot and yes you will tend to get jackasses that reckon they think they are gods because they became top but that's only because those type of people rarely get to the top and on the one occasion they did they have to make a big song and dance about it.
One thing i hate the most about dungeons is when I'm a paladin tank and i see myself miles ahead in the damage board this should never ever ever happen with dps such as GWFs with a similar iLvL.
For example in FBI I often check the dps board after the 1st boss (hati) because i as a pally tank tend to rack up a lot of DPS on the adds coming up the hill (unintentional its just the nature of the paladin) so if someone isn't BIS or near it I will tend to beat them or come close but on single target bosses where i slot bane its where the dps stand out and take the lead this is in my opinion where i judge with a measuring stick how well each dps is doing.
Comments
If a mof debuffer gives you lets say 400% debuff, so you deal a 4.000.000 (1.0000.000) damage on log, who does the extra 3 mil damage belong to? The dps or the debuffer?
Same can be said about every de\buff class in game.
In short I agree there is a need for a change, cause current paingiver shows how much hp you “remove” from the mob/boss and not how much your damage is, but if we are to change it, let the change be right and reflect the performance of all classes as much as possible.
Voodoo
MoF debuffer
If mobs are spread all over randomly attacking everyone the tank is not doing their job.
If a fight is taking foreeeeever the DPS are not doing their job.
If a boss is spinning and one-hitting randomly the tank is not doing their job.
If everyone's health bars are consistently staying low (excluding one-hits) the healer might not doing their job (or everyone is colorblind).
If trash mobs are still standing when the next mobs spawn, the dps are not doing their job.
These are the team-based role performance measures that matter most. Don't need a chart to tell us these.
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
You say, that the charts tell you nothing. Well, if I run with a DC/GF/ 3 DD combination and it takes forever the charts can tell me if a DD sucks. I dont need some patronizing BS like yes, but X could run ahead or Y buffs. I play long enough to take this into account. If you have 2 4k GWFs in your group and one deals 2-5x the dmg of the other one in a boss fight I know who builds/plays his char better after looking at the paingiver charts.
ACT is better, sure, but if you check the existing charts you can get some information. This is not just about bragging rights and epen. If I see a player perform well, I tend to inspect him and may ask him for his build/ rotation.
Meanwhile, 99.99% of the time (when this circumstance doesn't happen) the charts are a detriment. I'm not saying you're wrong, because you're not -- just maybe putting things into perspective a little.
1- I agree that the charts could use a rework... probably should is better.
2- I agree they fuel the ego problem.
3- I don't believe removing them will solve the problem.
The problems we all face are with the Chart-o-phealiac. These people need charts, they obsess over them, the numbers... they will always exist. Their problems are unrelated to the game itself, but a personality flaw.
They don't move from the red, because the healer is supposed to heal them through everything. They don't move out of the boss's way because the tank is supposed to keep aggro. They are oblivious to the fact that mistakes happen, and when they do happen, everyone needs to react properly. Not just one.
Therefore, the devs might as well figure out a way to provide us with better charts, or better ways to assess and improve ourselves over the course of playing our chosen class. To know how we are performing.
As for the annoying ones, well... i try to keep a list of people not to play with
Ravenskya - TR / Krisha Chaos - OP / Waffles - GF / Dex Domitor - HR
Becky the trendy GWF - GWF / Too Toasty - SW / Falcor - DC / Morrigan - CW / Sir Didymus - OP
In other games you needed BIS gear, a perfect group composition and really experienced players to finish the latest dungeons. I raided for a few years. No one claimed, that you are an elitist, when you did run end content premade. It was the only possible way. Some carried this attitude to NW. Good for them. I saw WOW/ LOTRO etc. raider getting BIS gear in 6 month to a year, while others struggled for years to gear up. The only problem is, when they show the same attitude towards other players, ignoring the fact, that it is not needed.
Here you can run PvE with PvP speccs and solo/ duo most of the game. On the one hand it makes asking for BIS sound like elitsm, bc it is not needed. On the other hand it gave raise to a 'carry me' mentality, where ppl think, that they are entitled to run endgame with inferior speccs/ chars placing the 'burden' of the run to other players. 3k PvP players with PvP gear and PvP spec asking for 4k MOF rene CW, 4k AA AC DC etc., R12 bondings a must have.
Lets agree to one thing. You can play the way you want. Others can play the way they want. If I search for a challenge I run PuG. If I want to do speedruns, I run with other decent PvE players. If you are one of them, good for you, if not I dont HAVE to run with you, just to show how nice I am. If you dont want, you dont have to run with me.
The charts dont force you to play one way or the other. The results dont force a certain behavior. Dont blame the charts. Jerks are jerks and leechers are leechers, with or without numbers to back it up.
I'd still like to see improvements to the games charts as it would help build and comp testing (more so for console than comp players).
I apologize if this has already been suggested.
She Looked Lvl 18
Here is my Blog
Ravenskya - TR / Krisha Chaos - OP / Waffles - GF / Dex Domitor - HR
Becky the trendy GWF - GWF / Too Toasty - SW / Falcor - DC / Morrigan - CW / Sir Didymus - OP
Unless it's a private queue - how are they getting the guild member in by kicking you? If it is a private queue - then I would suggest avoiding those in the future.</blockquote>
It does sound like a stretch but CN queue's are so few and far apart it's not very difficult to do it like a private invite on a regular pug. this is coming from the ps4 version if you're wondering also.
i've been in groups were we need one, somebody knows a guy, and they just get matched in after a few minutes, and i've been that person on the 0/1 outside, cycling through the same 2-3 groups that have 4 dps idling illithich or orcus camps hoping for a 3k pally/gf
this would require kicking anybody that wasn't who you're looking for, but with only one person having been dropped(me), and willingness to "gang kick", it's only a matter of time.
having some trouble doing quote
I only personally compare damage scores if they is two of the same class with similar builds and one has trippled the other then something is majorly wrong and if the group is struggling for DPS it can be a early indication into why.
Usually the wrong build and whack feat cookie cutter build dps are the ones that want it gone because they simply have no idea what they are doing.
Support DPS know they are support and so does the group so that point is also moot and yes you will tend to get jackasses that reckon they think they are gods because they became top but that's only because those type of people rarely get to the top and on the one occasion they did they have to make a big song and dance about it.
One thing i hate the most about dungeons is when I'm a paladin tank and i see myself miles ahead in the damage board this should never ever ever happen with dps such as GWFs with a similar iLvL.
For example in FBI I often check the dps board after the 1st boss (hati) because i as a pally tank tend to rack up a lot of DPS on the adds coming up the hill (unintentional its just the nature of the paladin) so if someone isn't BIS or near it I will tend to beat them or come close but on single target bosses where i slot bane its where the dps stand out and take the lead this is in my opinion where i judge with a measuring stick how well each dps is doing.
4,300 Tankadin