You should know it is not just as simple as having voice communication . Many premades have trained together for a very long time and know what powers to use and when they are most effective when used together. It might bring remove some distance between ITL but still it does nothing for the understanding of rotation or best attacks or counters to use.
I already discussed the issue. The answer given was "not our fault". I don't think the same. I think that every player must be able to enjoy PvP and not be forced to either play like competitive PvPers or get stomped/ avoid playing PvP.
I think that the duty of the game is to find a way to make PvP enjoyable for everyone. My opinion is that since NWO PvP is NOT just gear as many say, but also builds, experience, skills (which you tune up way more if you focus on PvP), you must matchup players with a similar "background". While it's true that with a larger population matchmaking gets better, reality is that current PvP population is at its lowest.
As i said in the past, fixing what tyrion listed takes more time. What, instead, can be done "fast" and with no resources needed, to increase population, is stuff like: better rewards, NCL, and different queue types. If you can't avoid competitive PvPers to be put against "normal players" (which is what, in the long run, a working matchmaking and ELO system should do, since they keep into account multiple factors and not just "gear"), the best you can do is at least mix them up (soloQ) or separate them (premadeQ, mixedQ and soloQ like tyrion wrote), and avoid situations where competitive/ trained PvPers are all in one team. In the long run, instead, the goal is to achieve deeper balance (see tyrion list, or Lancer and Ayroux suggestions, which are all good) and get back to a situation similar to NCL, with more players and a better working matchmaking.
In regard to this, @clonky---> i am not the only one who wrote about NCL or soloQ saying it felt more balanced and with less chances to get a one-sided match. Not just that. I said multiple times that in NCL i could turn many matches simply coordinating my team and sacrificing my own performance (for example, keeping a more geared enemy occupied to give room to my team to cap). Achieving a goal in NCL through 200+ (i think they were close to 250) matches is NOT a matter of luck. Other players might have, instead, given up matches just because they started losing. So the NCL experience is different for each players. It was also plagued by disconnects for some players but, as Tyrion said, its rankings and matchmaking was the most accurate so far. The same way, about soloQ, i'm not the only player who experienced more balanced matches during the event. It's not just "my experience".
Also, about mixedQ: i posted screens, at the time (removed because you could read player's names), showing that indeed on my HR i met premades multiple times. Bad luck? Time zone? Population too low? Yeah. Anything is possible. But the screens were there and are facts...And again, it's not just "me", but many more players wrote about the same issue/ experience...
This is the single most important thread in the history of this games existence.
If this game wants ANY hope of a decent population. Tyrion has hit the nail on the head here.
Hell, they can even just create a separate Que called "Vanilla PVP" or whatever. "ItemLevel PVP" - where its only based on factors that impact your item level (aka no boons, mount bonuses, insignias etc)
Run that as an event for 2 weeks, Ill GUARANTEE 90% of the pvp games will be under that Que SYSTEM and not the current one.
Now that im "reading between lines" on the other thread opened by @espeeo , what i don't really get is a simple thing: The PvP community as a whole from 2 servers agree that PvP is a mess and needs a fix for yesterday... What i don't get why they just can ask for a REAL "fix" list from PvP players from both servers and check how both communities think about PvP and how to fix it...
Because their hands are tied on what they can actually do? Because several DEVs might go to management and say "looks like they want us to remove all the boons and mount bonuses from PVP" to which they reply "well then how can we get them to pay for anything if we do that?! NO! Leave it as is! Infact! Lets create even more OP weapons and items they will need to buy MORE RP for! Thatll generate sales!"
Thats my theory anyways, because it seems SO black and white to me... I have a VERY hard time believing these developers are that stupid... So it must have already rolled uphill by now, and got shot down.
Because their hands are tied on what they can actually do? ......to which they reply "well then how can we get them to pay for anything if we do that?! NO! Leave it as is! Infact! Lets create even more OP weapons and items they will need to buy MORE RP for! Thatll generate sales!"
Im not sure pvp gear is the issue. I almost exclusivly play pve and only participate in domination when my guild needs conqueror shards to progress the stronghold. We're a mid level guild with no pvp boons. Despite this i found it pretty easy to get myself a full set of prestige pvp gear, yes you lose a lot on the way, but the token requirement to purchase is not too onerous and you improve with each bit you buy. My issue is its just too overbalanced to the pvp guilds even with the pvp equipment. They have the boons, the armour, the tactics and the premade groups, which means they can normally defeat opposition groups even if they have an equip level defecit. I think to balance pve players should be able to carry their advantages into pvp. Ie how many pvp players have bothered to gear up a companion given theyre not allowed in domination? If i could carry my legendary companions with 3 rank 12 bondings, 3 il 142 equipment slotted with 6 rank 12 enchantments into domination it would easily make up for my shortfall in boons, and the fact i pug against their premades? If the pvp players then take the time or money to address that, then fair play its the nature of most games / life that sometimes you run into something better than you, but they wouldnt all do it so the number of massive mismatches would drop.
+1 Much of this was the way it was pre-tenacity. They tried to lazily fix imbalance with that horrid implementation (Tenacity), i.e. bandaid on a gunshot wound.
My question is WHY. Anyone with common sense can see these festering issues. Is it just not enough billable hours? Is the $ generated from this (small) pvp population really that significant of a revenue source, and are they purposefully using the planned obsoletion approach (that clearly leaves many new players in the dust gear-wise)?
I agree 100% to remove these boons and normalize to the level of refined enchants/artifacts/weapons. No tenacity. No Boons AT ALL.
No mount bonuses or powers. This may be unpopular with most, but, having many of these mounts, I am still willing to part with these bonuses for a balanced pvp experience. Again, maybe this will not jive with their business model.
Great post OP.
PLEASE STICKY THIS SOMEONE>>>>ANYONE
Perhaps you need to tag a dev or two LT in your OP.
"Jazz isn't dead, it just smells funny" - Frank Zappa
The issues facing PVP are mutliple and systemic. I have seen the PVP slowly degrade from what it was in mod 0-2 with only a few things needing to be tweaked to be one of the most balanced PVP systems I've ever seen to what it is now which is a fiasco.
Without examining all of the history which would be a novel, I'll simply dive in head first to what are the primary issues and what can be done to fix them. All the problems with PVP come from imbalance. Imbalance in gear, boons, classes, enchants, mounts, mount insignias and comps. I will discuss them here, the order is less important than the overall picture it gives. I will name the problems first, then their solutions at the end.
1) Tenacity Tenacity is one of the single biggest differences between a PVEer with none and a fully geared experienced PVPer. It gives massive amounts of DR, Armpen resist, crit resist, and CC resist. It is the difference between being one shotted by an encounter and being able to hold a node against another player.
2) SH Boons 8K power, 30K health etc. We all know how OP the stats the SH boons give are at end game. When a pug with no or low Guild SH is placed against a player with high SH boons it's gg. They're dead, can't compete with that type of stat difference.
3) Campaign boons Completing a campaign in this game is like gaining the next 10 levels in any other game. Thus in most games if you hit level 70 and then complete Sharandar campaign you'd be level 80 and so on. When you put players who have completed all the campaigns against players who've completed none or one it's like putting a level 160 vs 70-80. It's when pugs die from deflect damage from the boons received from the campaigns.
4) Mounts Legendary mounts give huuuuuuge bonuses. 4K Power, 4K arm pen, 25% ap back. Also their attacks such as the Lion mount which is extremely OP. Temp group shield/HP, knockback, prone. This makes capping nodes or continuing a CC rotation extremely easy for those who either luck into, or can afford it.
5) Drains If you don't have wards and you fight a player with drains it's gg. You can't dodge, sprint, or use dailies. Just stand there and get killed. You lose all your defensive capabilities. Dumbest addition to the game ever imho.
6) Rings Rings that grant stealth or take it away are the equivalent of rings that give the guardian fighter's shield to other classes or cause the guardian fighter to drop their shield. Any such gear is nonsensical and counter to balance.
7) Mount insignia bonuses To get a full set of 3 insignia bonus mounts you must have 5 rare or epic mounts. Depending on the bonus you want they may be very expensive epic mounts. The heals from these bonuses are VERY strong. If you go against someone with full mount bonuses and you have none, they will out heal your damage and you will lose.
8) Class imbalance This changes from mod to mod as the devs try to incorporate different tooltip changes or try to enhance the damage or CC of a class it's completely FOTM so I will not even mention what is OP this mod because in a few weeks it will very likely change and whatever I said here about a specific class will be irrelevant. Suffice to say the DEVS seem to have a hard time with metrics on how classes perform in PVP.
9) Composition of groups in PVP Multiples of the same class is always imbalancing. Either because you don't have enough DPS because too many heal or tank classes, or you have too much DPS because you have multiple of the FOTM OP class, or because you have too many immortal classes, or because you have too many CC from the same class. 2 of any class takes away from the diversity of a group and is always imbalancing to matches.
Now that I've mentioned what I think are the most important issues facing PVP I will quickly run over their fixes.
1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9) Get rid of them from Domination. That's right, simply turn them off. All of them.
The reason mod 0-2 was the most balanced was because you mainly had the gear on your back, your build, and your skill. There were a few overperforming abilities but they were still the most balanced of all mods.
1) If you gave all toons an equal amount of tenacity on their character sheet and simply gave all the gear different stats or bonuses so players can mix and match then suddenly PVPers would enjoy PVEing again to get their gear. No longer would the game be divided into PVE and PVP as was done when tenacity was introduced.
2-7) Get rid of them, turn them off in PVP. All of them. Then the difference in stats comes from gear choices, refined gear, and refined enchants which is minimal compared to all these other boons and stats. It will simplify the DEVS job as well allowing them to focus on class balance in PVP without extraneous variables from interacting boons.
8) Which can only be done truly for PVP in an effective way if 2-7 are done away with. Then you can tone down piercing damage appropriately to put it in line with the other classes and you can more closely monitor high CC classes to make sure there's breaks in their rotations where they are vulnerable. Otherwise players can use rescue devices from gear, from insignias, from boons. This is the surest way, by getting rid of extranous variables, to balance PVP.
9) Force rainbows. This game was meant to be played with a diversity of classes. Make that happen. Stop allowing players to form OP groups based off of comp and make all the classes relevant for their various differing roles in PVP.
THats it. I just balanced PVP. Took me 10 minutes to write and everyone who PVPs either casually or expressly knows this is true.
Thanks for your time.
If you agree give me a +1 If you disagree I think your statement, if honest, will have to be "but I worked so hard or got so lucky to get that _____" fill in the blank. However, feel free to post your disagreement as well.
10) trans shadowclad. I see often the wearer to dissapear. The question is how they deflect on the 8th stack always( the only way the stealth to proc no?). THe fact that includes stealth mechanic is should be on your list.
> @mamalion1234 said: > The issues facing PVP are mutliple and systemic. I have seen the PVP slowly degrade from what it was in mod 0-2 with only a few things needing to be tweaked to be one of the most balanced PVP systems I've ever seen to what it is now which is a fiasco. > > Without examining all of the history which would be a novel, I'll simply dive in head first to what are the primary issues and what can be done to fix them. All the problems with PVP come from imbalance. Imbalance in gear, boons, classes, enchants, mounts, mount insignias and comps. I will discuss them here, the order is less important than the overall picture it gives. I will name the problems first, then their solutions at the end. > > 1) Tenacity > Tenacity is one of the single biggest differences between a PVEer with none and a fully geared experienced PVPer. It gives massive amounts of DR, Armpen resist, crit resist, and CC resist. It is the difference between being one shotted by an encounter and being able to hold a node against another player. > > 2) SH Boons > 8K power, 30K health etc. We all know how OP the stats the SH boons give are at end game. When a pug with no or low Guild SH is placed against a player with high SH boons it's gg. They're dead, can't compete with that type of stat difference. > > 3) Campaign boons > Completing a campaign in this game is like gaining the next 10 levels in any other game. Thus in most games if you hit level 70 and then complete Sharandar campaign you'd be level 80 and so on. When you put players who have completed all the campaigns against players who've completed none or one it's like putting a level 160 vs 70-80. It's when pugs die from deflect damage from the boons received from the campaigns. > > 4) Mounts > Legendary mounts give huuuuuuge bonuses. 4K Power, 4K arm pen, 25% ap back. Also their attacks such as the Lion mount which is extremely OP. Temp group shield/HP, knockback, prone. This makes capping nodes or continuing a CC rotation extremely easy for those who either luck into, or can afford it. > > 5) Drains > If you don't have wards and you fight a player with drains it's gg. You can't dodge, sprint, or use dailies. Just stand there and get killed. You lose all your defensive capabilities. Dumbest addition to the game ever imho. > > 6) Rings > Rings that grant stealth or take it away are the equivalent of rings that give the guardian fighter's shield to other classes or cause the guardian fighter to drop their shield. Any such gear is nonsensical and counter to balance. > > 7) Mount insignia bonuses > To get a full set of 3 insignia bonus mounts you must have 5 rare or epic mounts. Depending on the bonus you want they may be very expensive epic mounts. The heals from these bonuses are VERY strong. If you go against someone with full mount bonuses and you have none, they will out heal your damage and you will lose. > > 8) Class imbalance > This changes from mod to mod as the devs try to incorporate different tooltip changes or try to enhance the damage or CC of a class it's completely FOTM so I will not even mention what is OP this mod because in a few weeks it will very likely change and whatever I said here about a specific class will be irrelevant. Suffice to say the DEVS seem to have a hard time with metrics on how classes perform in PVP. > > 9) Composition of groups in PVP > Multiples of the same class is always imbalancing. Either because you don't have enough DPS because too many heal or tank classes, or you have too much DPS because you have multiple of the FOTM OP class, or because you have too many immortal classes, or because you have too many CC from the same class. 2 of any class takes away from the diversity of a group and is always imbalancing to matches. > > Now that I've mentioned what I think are the most important issues facing PVP I will quickly run over their fixes. > > 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9) Get rid of them from Domination. That's right, simply turn them off. All of them. > > The reason mod 0-2 was the most balanced was because you mainly had the gear on your back, your build, and your skill. There were a few overperforming abilities but they were still the most balanced of all mods. > > 1) If you gave all toons an equal amount of tenacity on their character sheet and simply gave all the gear different stats or bonuses so players can mix and match then suddenly PVPers would enjoy PVEing again to get their gear. No longer would the game be divided into PVE and PVP as was done when tenacity was introduced. > > 2-7) Get rid of them, turn them off in PVP. All of them. Then the difference in stats comes from gear choices, refined gear, and refined enchants which is minimal compared to all these other boons and stats. It will simplify the DEVS job as well allowing them to focus on class balance in PVP without extraneous variables from interacting boons. > > 8) Which can only be done truly for PVP in an effective way if 2-7 are done away with. Then you can tone down piercing damage appropriately to put it in line with the other classes and you can more closely monitor high CC classes to make sure there's breaks in their rotations where they are vulnerable. Otherwise players can use rescue devices from gear, from insignias, from boons. This is the surest way, by getting rid of extranous variables, to balance PVP. > > 9) Force rainbows. This game was meant to be played with a diversity of classes. Make that happen. Stop allowing players to form OP groups based off of comp and make all the classes relevant for their various differing roles in PVP. > > THats it. I just balanced PVP. Took me 10 minutes to write and everyone who PVPs either casually or expressly knows this is true. > > Thanks for your time. > > If you agree give me a +1 > If you disagree I think your statement, if honest, will have to be "but I worked so hard or got so lucky to get that _____" fill in the blank. However, feel free to post your disagreement as well. > > 10) trans shadowclad. I see often the wearer to dissapear. The question is how they deflect on the 8th stack always( the only way the stealth to proc no?). THe fact that includes stealth mechanic is should be on your list.
The stealth initiates when one deflects with X number stacks, in constant combat ( like it is usually in pvp) the stacks dont expire so once at 8 the wearer will either die, kill his target or eventually deflect.. After that the stealth goes on cooldown and you can deflect many times with 8 stacks but not disappear till the effect is refreshed.
0
mamalion1234Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,415Arc User
> The issues facing PVP are mutliple and systemic. I have seen the PVP slowly degrade from what it was in mod 0-2 with only a few things needing to be tweaked to be one of the most balanced PVP systems I've ever seen to what it is now which is a fiasco.
>
> Without examining all of the history which would be a novel, I'll simply dive in head first to what are the primary issues and what can be done to fix them. All the problems with PVP come from imbalance. Imbalance in gear, boons, classes, enchants, mounts, mount insignias and comps. I will discuss them here, the order is less important than the overall picture it gives. I will name the problems first, then their solutions at the end.
>
> 1) Tenacity
> Tenacity is one of the single biggest differences between a PVEer with none and a fully geared experienced PVPer. It gives massive amounts of DR, Armpen resist, crit resist, and CC resist. It is the difference between being one shotted by an encounter and being able to hold a node against another player.
>
> 2) SH Boons
> 8K power, 30K health etc. We all know how OP the stats the SH boons give are at end game. When a pug with no or low Guild SH is placed against a player with high SH boons it's gg. They're dead, can't compete with that type of stat difference.
>
> 3) Campaign boons
> Completing a campaign in this game is like gaining the next 10 levels in any other game. Thus in most games if you hit level 70 and then complete Sharandar campaign you'd be level 80 and so on. When you put players who have completed all the campaigns against players who've completed none or one it's like putting a level 160 vs 70-80. It's when pugs die from deflect damage from the boons received from the campaigns.
>
> 4) Mounts
> Legendary mounts give huuuuuuge bonuses. 4K Power, 4K arm pen, 25% ap back. Also their attacks such as the Lion mount which is extremely OP. Temp group shield/HP, knockback, prone. This makes capping nodes or continuing a CC rotation extremely easy for those who either luck into, or can afford it.
>
> 5) Drains
> If you don't have wards and you fight a player with drains it's gg. You can't dodge, sprint, or use dailies. Just stand there and get killed. You lose all your defensive capabilities. Dumbest addition to the game ever imho.
>
> 6) Rings
> Rings that grant stealth or take it away are the equivalent of rings that give the guardian fighter's shield to other classes or cause the guardian fighter to drop their shield. Any such gear is nonsensical and counter to balance.
>
> 7) Mount insignia bonuses
> To get a full set of 3 insignia bonus mounts you must have 5 rare or epic mounts. Depending on the bonus you want they may be very expensive epic mounts. The heals from these bonuses are VERY strong. If you go against someone with full mount bonuses and you have none, they will out heal your damage and you will lose.
>
> 8) Class imbalance
> This changes from mod to mod as the devs try to incorporate different tooltip changes or try to enhance the damage or CC of a class it's completely FOTM so I will not even mention what is OP this mod because in a few weeks it will very likely change and whatever I said here about a specific class will be irrelevant. Suffice to say the DEVS seem to have a hard time with metrics on how classes perform in PVP.
>
> 9) Composition of groups in PVP
> Multiples of the same class is always imbalancing. Either because you don't have enough DPS because too many heal or tank classes, or you have too much DPS because you have multiple of the FOTM OP class, or because you have too many immortal classes, or because you have too many CC from the same class. 2 of any class takes away from the diversity of a group and is always imbalancing to matches.
>
> Now that I've mentioned what I think are the most important issues facing PVP I will quickly run over their fixes.
>
> 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9) Get rid of them from Domination. That's right, simply turn them off. All of them.
>
> The reason mod 0-2 was the most balanced was because you mainly had the gear on your back, your build, and your skill. There were a few overperforming abilities but they were still the most balanced of all mods.
>
> 1) If you gave all toons an equal amount of tenacity on their character sheet and simply gave all the gear different stats or bonuses so players can mix and match then suddenly PVPers would enjoy PVEing again to get their gear. No longer would the game be divided into PVE and PVP as was done when tenacity was introduced.
>
> 2-7) Get rid of them, turn them off in PVP. All of them. Then the difference in stats comes from gear choices, refined gear, and refined enchants which is minimal compared to all these other boons and stats. It will simplify the DEVS job as well allowing them to focus on class balance in PVP without extraneous variables from interacting boons.
>
> 8) Which can only be done truly for PVP in an effective way if 2-7 are done away with. Then you can tone down piercing damage appropriately to put it in line with the other classes and you can more closely monitor high CC classes to make sure there's breaks in their rotations where they are vulnerable. Otherwise players can use rescue devices from gear, from insignias, from boons. This is the surest way, by getting rid of extranous variables, to balance PVP.
>
> 9) Force rainbows. This game was meant to be played with a diversity of classes. Make that happen. Stop allowing players to form OP groups based off of comp and make all the classes relevant for their various differing roles in PVP.
>
> THats it. I just balanced PVP. Took me 10 minutes to write and everyone who PVPs either casually or expressly knows this is true.
>
> Thanks for your time.
>
> If you agree give me a +1
> If you disagree I think your statement, if honest, will have to be "but I worked so hard or got so lucky to get that _____" fill in the blank. However, feel free to post your disagreement as well.
>
> 10) trans shadowclad. I see often the wearer to dissapear. The question is how they deflect on the 8th stack always( the only way the stealth to proc no?). THe fact that includes stealth mechanic is should be on your list.
The stealth initiates when one deflects with X number stacks, in constant combat ( like it is usually in pvp) the stacks dont expire so once at 8 the wearer will either die, kill his target or eventually deflect.. After that the stealth goes on cooldown and you can deflect many times with 8 stacks but not disappear till the effect is refreshed.
THE first paragraph of the tooltip says that the effect has 8 stacks but when you deflect it expires. Based on this to reach 8 stacks you must not deflect. THE only case i can think someone to have the stealth often is if he get dot damage and do not deflect the first dot hit. BUT this is not my point. Pure shadowclad give the same dr and deflection as the trans. SO someone uses level 12 version his intension is to stealth.
chestnut13Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 176Arc User
Your passion for PVP in Neverwinter is truly a passion ... I just wish people like you could have more of an effect! Unfortunately, I don't think you can. Here's why:
The game, and in particular PVP, has become an overly complex, unstable system. I, too, played when it was just out of beta and PVP was incredible and addicting. Teams won or lost not because someone was OP, but because team strategy and tactics were paramount. Fact: It has become far too complex for a few human developers to effectively balance. 8 classes with two paragon paths and three trees ... Boons out the wazoo with OP Stronghold ones out of individual control ... artifacts that have multiplied like rabbits ... and a host of variables like tenacity, healing, and control/lack of control are simply too complex to manage. There is always an unexpected synergistic loophole that will get expoited.
Think of pouring sand into a pile. It does just fine for a while until the individual bonds in the cone become too complex and it destabilizes in an instant ... and no one can tell you why. You are just left with a mess.
I think your ideas are good and I agree with all of them, but they will, in the end, be ineffective. The two things that could bring back the pleasure and competiveness of PVP are 1) A vast simplification of the PVP system (let's get naked) ... ain't gonna happen, and 2) a backtracking on the devs (and top players) fixation that players shouldn't die. PVP is about killing each other's toons! I'd rather die 10 times in a match and win and have it be competitive than die once with 8 kills and lose and waste my time in an uncompetitive match.
I guess there's 3 but it's apparent that the Powers That Be won't officially and intelligently separate pugs and premades all the time. It's only offered as a once in a while perk. Just asinine. To not have a competitive cutthroat team partition that can play King of The Hill, and a roll the dice "who's gonna be on my team, and how can we make this work" grouping is ... well, it's so stupid, I don't want to comment further.
The current system of piecemeal buffing/debuffing one or two classes at a time is an absolute joke and simply perpetuates the idiocy of a rotating class imbalance. Either do it all at once or don't do it. Personally, I hope that I am wrong, but I think we have passed the point of any hope of effectively balancing PVP in Neverwinter.
Now the question is: how (concretely) do we get them to implement said changes?
I don't know who you are but you seem to be a "senior" member of a pvp alliance (you can correct me if I am wrong). Only a nexus of several alliance leaders could coordinate lobbying efforts in one way or another towards decision-makers at Cryptic. Whether this could even be effective or not is another question. However, the fact that you took the time to enumerate and explain the problems you perceive as critical in pvp makes me think that you believe that change can be lobbied for.
Your passion for PVP in Neverwinter is truly a passion ... I just wish people like you could have more of an effect! Unfortunately, I don't think you can. Here's why:
The game, and in particular PVP, has become an overly complex, unstable system. I, too, played when it was just out of beta and PVP was incredible and addicting. Teams won or lost not because someone was OP, but because team strategy and tactics were paramount. Fact: It has become far too complex for a few human developers to effectively balance. 8 classes with two paragon paths and three trees ... Boons out the wazoo with OP Stronghold ones out of individual control ... artifacts that have multiplied like rabbits ... and a host of variables like tenacity, healing, and control/lack of control are simply too complex to manage. There is always an unexpected synergistic loophole that will get expoited.
Think of pouring sand into a pile. It does just fine for a while until the individual bonds in the cone become too complex and it destabilizes in an instant ... and no one can tell you why. You are just left with a mess.
I think your ideas are good and I agree with all of them, but they will, in the end, be ineffective. The two things that could bring back the pleasure and competiveness of PVP are 1) A vast simplification of the PVP system (let's get naked) ... ain't gonna happen, and 2) a backtracking on the devs (and top players) fixation that players shouldn't die. PVP is about killing each other's toons! I'd rather die 10 times in a match and win and have it be competitive than die once with 8 kills and lose and waste my time in an uncompetitive match.
I guess there's 3 but it's apparent that the Powers That Be won't officially and intelligently separate pugs and premades all the time. It's only offered as a once in a while perk. Just asinine. To not have a competitive cutthroat team partition that can play King of The Hill, and a roll the dice "who's gonna be on my team, and how can we make this work" grouping is ... well, it's so stupid, I don't want to comment further.
The current system of piecemeal buffing/debuffing one or two classes at a time is an absolute joke and simply perpetuates the idiocy of a rotating class imbalance. Either do it all at once or don't do it. Personally, I hope that I am wrong, but I think we have passed the point of any hope of effectively balancing PVP in Neverwinter.
If you look at each power/encounter/feat etc 1 at a time and try to find a balance in pvp it will get to the point of impossibility.
However that is not how you solve the balance, as many that do not work with solving or creating complicated matters you look at the picture and see a multitude of interacting actions where it is next to impossible to see how the interact with each other.
It is not rocket science to solve the pvp issue as long as you do it in a controlled environment with enough test subjects. Add a few new maps with different win objectives and some fun rewards and voila you have a pvp environment that can actually attract players that will have fun playing it....
make naked pvp que with NOTHING! only 2 green weapon with NOTHING!
and make domination lobby
and also make 1 button WHOLEE build and gear swap for pve players able to pvp
0
mamalion1234Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,415Arc User
edited January 2017
I love lancer idea for premade vs premade with queue. That will do the most important bring poeple to play together instead do a random queue to minimize the posibility to get a premade team. You know in my guild many that play pve have said would play pvp if things were different. IMagine this example : premade pve builds vs premade pve builds.
I love lancer idea for premade vs premade with queue. That will do the most important bring poeple to play together instead do a random queue to minimize the posibility to get a premade team.
Yup it will benefit the few 5-man premades who actually want to fight other premades. I could probably count the teams with my hand. I don't know how much it will balance regular PVP though since there is still a vast gear disparity between players.
@crowdsourced#3904 I think it will benefit more than just a handful teams. I know there are lots of other guilds (who are not known in the PvP scene) who enjoy playing inhouses or simply fight friends.
The problem is you need either 2 minutes or 1hour to queue sync depending on how many people try to enter PvP. So most of them simply avoid PvP in general.
I certainly hope that's true. It would be hilarious and I'm sure there will be some guilds who will get called out for running 5-man and 4-man groups in regular queue even after the new 5-man queue is implemented.
Comments
I don't think the same. I think that every player must be able to enjoy PvP and not be forced to either play like competitive PvPers or get stomped/ avoid playing PvP.
I think that the duty of the game is to find a way to make PvP enjoyable for everyone. My opinion is that since NWO PvP is NOT just gear as many say, but also builds, experience, skills (which you tune up way more if you focus on PvP), you must matchup players with a similar "background".
While it's true that with a larger population matchmaking gets better, reality is that current PvP population is at its lowest.
As i said in the past, fixing what tyrion listed takes more time. What, instead, can be done "fast" and with no resources needed, to increase population, is stuff like: better rewards, NCL, and different queue types. If you can't avoid competitive PvPers to be put against "normal players" (which is what, in the long run, a working matchmaking and ELO system should do, since they keep into account multiple factors and not just "gear"), the best you can do is at least mix them up (soloQ) or separate them (premadeQ, mixedQ and soloQ like tyrion wrote), and avoid situations where competitive/ trained PvPers are all in one team.
In the long run, instead, the goal is to achieve deeper balance (see tyrion list, or Lancer and Ayroux suggestions, which are all good) and get back to a situation similar to NCL, with more players and a better working matchmaking.
In regard to this, @clonky---> i am not the only one who wrote about NCL or soloQ saying it felt more balanced and with less chances to get a one-sided match. Not just that. I said multiple times that in NCL i could turn many matches simply coordinating my team and sacrificing my own performance (for example, keeping a more geared enemy occupied to give room to my team to cap). Achieving a goal in NCL through 200+ (i think they were close to 250) matches is NOT a matter of luck. Other players might have, instead, given up matches just because they started losing. So the NCL experience is different for each players. It was also plagued by disconnects for some players but, as Tyrion said, its rankings and matchmaking was the most accurate so far.
The same way, about soloQ, i'm not the only player who experienced more balanced matches during the event. It's not just "my experience".
Also, about mixedQ: i posted screens, at the time (removed because you could read player's names), showing that indeed on my HR i met premades multiple times. Bad luck? Time zone? Population too low? Yeah. Anything is possible. But the screens were there and are facts...And again, it's not just "me", but many more players wrote about the same issue/ experience...
This is the single most important thread in the history of this games existence.
If this game wants ANY hope of a decent population. Tyrion has hit the nail on the head here.
Hell, they can even just create a separate Que called "Vanilla PVP" or whatever. "ItemLevel PVP" - where its only based on factors that impact your item level (aka no boons, mount bonuses, insignias etc)
Run that as an event for 2 weeks, Ill GUARANTEE 90% of the pvp games will be under that Que SYSTEM and not the current one.
LOVE this thread LT, keep up the good work!
Thats my theory anyways, because it seems SO black and white to me... I have a VERY hard time believing these developers are that stupid... So it must have already rolled uphill by now, and got shot down.
Despite this i found it pretty easy to get myself a full set of prestige pvp gear, yes you lose a lot on the way, but the token requirement to purchase is not too onerous and you improve with each bit you buy.
My issue is its just too overbalanced to the pvp guilds even with the pvp equipment. They have the boons, the armour, the tactics and the premade groups, which means they can normally defeat opposition groups even if they have an equip level defecit.
I think to balance pve players should be able to carry their advantages into pvp. Ie how many pvp players have bothered to gear up a companion given theyre not allowed in domination? If i could carry my legendary companions with 3 rank 12 bondings, 3 il 142 equipment slotted with 6 rank 12 enchantments into domination it would easily make up for my shortfall in boons, and the fact i pug against their premades?
If the pvp players then take the time or money to address that, then fair play its the nature of most games / life that sometimes you run into something better than you, but they wouldnt all do it so the number of massive mismatches would drop.
No youvr misunderstood me. I only go in pvp when my guild needs the shards. I have never queued with my guild i always solo queue
My question is WHY. Anyone with common sense can see these festering issues. Is it just not enough billable hours? Is the $ generated from this (small) pvp population really that significant of a revenue source, and are they purposefully using the planned obsoletion approach (that clearly leaves many new players in the dust gear-wise)?
I agree 100% to remove these boons and normalize to the level of refined enchants/artifacts/weapons. No tenacity. No Boons AT ALL.
No mount bonuses or powers. This may be unpopular with most, but, having many of these mounts, I am still willing to part with these bonuses for a balanced pvp experience. Again, maybe this will not jive with their business model.
Great post OP.
PLEASE STICKY THIS SOMEONE>>>>ANYONE
Perhaps you need to tag a dev or two LT in your OP.
> The issues facing PVP are mutliple and systemic. I have seen the PVP slowly degrade from what it was in mod 0-2 with only a few things needing to be tweaked to be one of the most balanced PVP systems I've ever seen to what it is now which is a fiasco.
>
> Without examining all of the history which would be a novel, I'll simply dive in head first to what are the primary issues and what can be done to fix them. All the problems with PVP come from imbalance. Imbalance in gear, boons, classes, enchants, mounts, mount insignias and comps. I will discuss them here, the order is less important than the overall picture it gives. I will name the problems first, then their solutions at the end.
>
> 1) Tenacity
> Tenacity is one of the single biggest differences between a PVEer with none and a fully geared experienced PVPer. It gives massive amounts of DR, Armpen resist, crit resist, and CC resist. It is the difference between being one shotted by an encounter and being able to hold a node against another player.
>
> 2) SH Boons
> 8K power, 30K health etc. We all know how OP the stats the SH boons give are at end game. When a pug with no or low Guild SH is placed against a player with high SH boons it's gg. They're dead, can't compete with that type of stat difference.
>
> 3) Campaign boons
> Completing a campaign in this game is like gaining the next 10 levels in any other game. Thus in most games if you hit level 70 and then complete Sharandar campaign you'd be level 80 and so on. When you put players who have completed all the campaigns against players who've completed none or one it's like putting a level 160 vs 70-80. It's when pugs die from deflect damage from the boons received from the campaigns.
>
> 4) Mounts
> Legendary mounts give huuuuuuge bonuses. 4K Power, 4K arm pen, 25% ap back. Also their attacks such as the Lion mount which is extremely OP. Temp group shield/HP, knockback, prone. This makes capping nodes or continuing a CC rotation extremely easy for those who either luck into, or can afford it.
>
> 5) Drains
> If you don't have wards and you fight a player with drains it's gg. You can't dodge, sprint, or use dailies. Just stand there and get killed. You lose all your defensive capabilities. Dumbest addition to the game ever imho.
>
> 6) Rings
> Rings that grant stealth or take it away are the equivalent of rings that give the guardian fighter's shield to other classes or cause the guardian fighter to drop their shield. Any such gear is nonsensical and counter to balance.
>
> 7) Mount insignia bonuses
> To get a full set of 3 insignia bonus mounts you must have 5 rare or epic mounts. Depending on the bonus you want they may be very expensive epic mounts. The heals from these bonuses are VERY strong. If you go against someone with full mount bonuses and you have none, they will out heal your damage and you will lose.
>
> 8) Class imbalance
> This changes from mod to mod as the devs try to incorporate different tooltip changes or try to enhance the damage or CC of a class it's completely FOTM so I will not even mention what is OP this mod because in a few weeks it will very likely change and whatever I said here about a specific class will be irrelevant. Suffice to say the DEVS seem to have a hard time with metrics on how classes perform in PVP.
>
> 9) Composition of groups in PVP
> Multiples of the same class is always imbalancing. Either because you don't have enough DPS because too many heal or tank classes, or you have too much DPS because you have multiple of the FOTM OP class, or because you have too many immortal classes, or because you have too many CC from the same class. 2 of any class takes away from the diversity of a group and is always imbalancing to matches.
>
> Now that I've mentioned what I think are the most important issues facing PVP I will quickly run over their fixes.
>
> 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9) Get rid of them from Domination. That's right, simply turn them off. All of them.
>
> The reason mod 0-2 was the most balanced was because you mainly had the gear on your back, your build, and your skill. There were a few overperforming abilities but they were still the most balanced of all mods.
>
> 1) If you gave all toons an equal amount of tenacity on their character sheet and simply gave all the gear different stats or bonuses so players can mix and match then suddenly PVPers would enjoy PVEing again to get their gear. No longer would the game be divided into PVE and PVP as was done when tenacity was introduced.
>
> 2-7) Get rid of them, turn them off in PVP. All of them. Then the difference in stats comes from gear choices, refined gear, and refined enchants which is minimal compared to all these other boons and stats. It will simplify the DEVS job as well allowing them to focus on class balance in PVP without extraneous variables from interacting boons.
>
> 8) Which can only be done truly for PVP in an effective way if 2-7 are done away with. Then you can tone down piercing damage appropriately to put it in line with the other classes and you can more closely monitor high CC classes to make sure there's breaks in their rotations where they are vulnerable. Otherwise players can use rescue devices from gear, from insignias, from boons. This is the surest way, by getting rid of extranous variables, to balance PVP.
>
> 9) Force rainbows. This game was meant to be played with a diversity of classes. Make that happen. Stop allowing players to form OP groups based off of comp and make all the classes relevant for their various differing roles in PVP.
>
> THats it. I just balanced PVP. Took me 10 minutes to write and everyone who PVPs either casually or expressly knows this is true.
>
> Thanks for your time.
>
> If you agree give me a +1
> If you disagree I think your statement, if honest, will have to be "but I worked so hard or got so lucky to get that _____" fill in the blank. However, feel free to post your disagreement as well.
>
> 10) trans shadowclad. I see often the wearer to dissapear. The question is how they deflect on the 8th stack always( the only way the stealth to proc no?). THe fact that includes stealth mechanic is should be on your list.
The stealth initiates when one deflects with X number stacks, in constant combat ( like it is usually in pvp) the stacks dont expire so once at 8 the wearer will either die, kill his target or eventually deflect.. After that the stealth goes on cooldown and you can deflect many times with 8 stacks but not disappear till the effect is refreshed.
BUT this is not my point. Pure shadowclad give the same dr and deflection as the trans. SO someone uses level 12 version his intension is to stealth.
The game, and in particular PVP, has become an overly complex, unstable system. I, too, played when it was just out of beta and PVP was incredible and addicting. Teams won or lost not because someone was OP, but because team strategy and tactics were paramount. Fact: It has become far too complex for a few human developers to effectively balance. 8 classes with two paragon paths and three trees ... Boons out the wazoo with OP Stronghold ones out of individual control ... artifacts that have multiplied like rabbits ... and a host of variables like tenacity, healing, and control/lack of control are simply too complex to manage. There is always an unexpected synergistic loophole that will get expoited.
Think of pouring sand into a pile. It does just fine for a while until the individual bonds in the cone become too complex and it destabilizes in an instant ... and no one can tell you why. You are just left with a mess.
I think your ideas are good and I agree with all of them, but they will, in the end, be ineffective. The two things that could bring back the pleasure and competiveness of PVP are 1) A vast simplification of the PVP system (let's get naked) ... ain't gonna happen, and 2) a backtracking on the devs (and top players) fixation that players shouldn't die. PVP is about killing each other's toons! I'd rather die 10 times in a match and win and have it be competitive than die once with 8 kills and lose and waste my time in an uncompetitive match.
I guess there's 3 but it's apparent that the Powers That Be won't officially and intelligently separate pugs and premades all the time. It's only offered as a once in a while perk. Just asinine. To not have a competitive cutthroat team partition that can play King of The Hill, and a roll the dice "who's gonna be on my team, and how can we make this work" grouping is ... well, it's so stupid, I don't want to comment further.
The current system of piecemeal buffing/debuffing one or two classes at a time is an absolute joke and simply perpetuates the idiocy of a rotating class imbalance. Either do it all at once or don't do it. Personally, I hope that I am wrong, but I think we have passed the point of any hope of effectively balancing PVP in Neverwinter.
Now the question is: how (concretely) do we get them to implement said changes?
I don't know who you are but you seem to be a "senior" member of a pvp alliance (you can correct me if I am wrong). Only a nexus of several alliance leaders could coordinate lobbying efforts in one way or another towards decision-makers at Cryptic. Whether this could even be effective or not is another question. However, the fact that you took the time to enumerate and explain the problems you perceive as critical in pvp makes me think that you believe that change can be lobbied for.
Aelan Icebleed (CW)
However that is not how you solve the balance, as many that do not work with solving or creating complicated matters you look at the picture and see a multitude of interacting actions where it is next to impossible to see how the interact with each other.
It is not rocket science to solve the pvp issue as long as you do it in a controlled environment with enough test subjects.
Add a few new maps with different win objectives and some fun rewards and voila you have a pvp environment that can actually attract players that will have fun playing it....
and make domination lobby
and also make 1 button WHOLEE build and gear swap for pve players able to pvp
IMagine this example : premade pve builds vs premade pve builds.