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PVP: The issues, all of them.
ltgamesttv
Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,438 Arc User
The issues facing PVP are mutliple and systemic. I have seen the PVP slowly degrade from what it was in mod 0-2 with only a few things needing to be tweaked to be one of the most balanced PVP systems I've ever seen to what it is now which is a fiasco.
Without examining all of the history which would be a novel, I'll simply dive in head first to what are the primary issues and what can be done to fix them. All the problems with PVP come from imbalance. Imbalance in gear, boons, classes, enchants, mounts, mount insignias and comps. I will discuss them here, the order is less important than the overall picture it gives. I will name the problems first, then their solutions at the end.
1) Tenacity
Tenacity is one of the single biggest differences between a PVEer with none and a fully geared experienced PVPer. It gives massive amounts of DR, Armpen resist, crit resist, and CC resist. It is the difference between being one shotted by an encounter and being able to hold a node against another player.
2) SH Boons
8K power, 30K health etc. We all know how OP the stats the SH boons give are at end game. When a pug with no or low Guild SH is placed against a player with high SH boons it's gg. They're dead, can't compete with that type of stat difference.
3) Campaign boons
Completing a campaign in this game is like gaining the next 10 levels in any other game. Thus in most games if you hit level 70 and then complete Sharandar campaign you'd be level 80 and so on. When you put players who have completed all the campaigns against players who've completed none or one it's like putting a level 160 vs 70-80. It's when pugs die from deflect damage from the boons received from the campaigns.
4) Mounts
Legendary mounts give huuuuuuge bonuses. 4K Power, 4K arm pen, 25% ap back. Also their attacks such as the Lion mount which is extremely OP. Temp group shield/HP, knockback, prone. This makes capping nodes or continuing a CC rotation extremely easy for those who either luck into, or can afford it.
5) Drains
If you don't have wards and you fight a player with drains it's gg. You can't dodge, sprint, or use dailies. Just stand there and get killed. You lose all your defensive capabilities. Dumbest addition to the game ever imho.
6) Rings
Rings that grant stealth or take it away are the equivalent of rings that give the guardian fighter's shield to other classes or cause the guardian fighter to drop their shield. Any such gear is nonsensical and counter to balance.
7) Mount insignia bonuses
To get a full set of 3 insignia bonus mounts you must have 5 rare or epic mounts. Depending on the bonus you want they may be very expensive epic mounts. The heals from these bonuses are VERY strong. If you go against someone with full mount bonuses and you have none, they will out heal your damage and you will lose.
8) Class imbalance
This changes from mod to mod as the devs try to incorporate different tooltip changes or try to enhance the damage or CC of a class it's completely FOTM so I will not even mention what is OP this mod because in a few weeks it will very likely change and whatever I said here about a specific class will be irrelevant. Suffice to say the DEVS seem to have a hard time with metrics on how classes perform in PVP.
9) Composition of groups in PVP
Multiples of the same class is always imbalancing. Either because you don't have enough DPS because too many heal or tank classes, or you have too much DPS because you have multiple of the FOTM OP class, or because you have too many immortal classes, or because you have too many CC from the same class. 2 of any class takes away from the diversity of a group and is always imbalancing to matches.
Now that I've mentioned what I think are the most important issues facing PVP I will quickly run over their fixes.
1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9) Get rid of them from Domination. That's right, simply turn them off. All of them.
The reason mod 0-2 was the most balanced was because you mainly had the gear on your back, your build, and your skill. There were a few overperforming abilities but they were still the most balanced of all mods.
1) If you gave all toons an equal amount of tenacity on their character sheet and simply gave all the gear different stats or bonuses so players can mix and match then suddenly PVPers would enjoy PVEing again to get their gear. No longer would the game be divided into PVE and PVP as was done when tenacity was introduced.
2-7) Get rid of them, turn them off in PVP. All of them. Then the difference in stats comes from gear choices, refined gear, and refined enchants which is minimal compared to all these other boons and stats. It will simplify the DEVS job as well allowing them to focus on class balance in PVP without extraneous variables from interacting boons.
8) Which can only be done truly for PVP in an effective way if 2-7 are done away with. Then you can tone down piercing damage appropriately to put it in line with the other classes and you can more closely monitor high CC classes to make sure there's breaks in their rotations where they are vulnerable. Otherwise players can use rescue devices from gear, from insignias, from boons. This is the surest way, by getting rid of extranous variables, to balance PVP.
9) Force rainbows. This game was meant to be played with a diversity of classes. Make that happen. Stop allowing players to form OP groups based off of comp and make all the classes relevant for their various differing roles in PVP.
THats it. I just balanced PVP. Took me 10 minutes to write and everyone who PVPs either casually or expressly knows this is true.
Thanks for your time.
If you agree give me a +1
If you disagree I think your statement, if honest, will have to be "but I worked so hard or got so lucky to get that _____" fill in the blank. However, feel free to post your disagreement as well.
Without examining all of the history which would be a novel, I'll simply dive in head first to what are the primary issues and what can be done to fix them. All the problems with PVP come from imbalance. Imbalance in gear, boons, classes, enchants, mounts, mount insignias and comps. I will discuss them here, the order is less important than the overall picture it gives. I will name the problems first, then their solutions at the end.
1) Tenacity
Tenacity is one of the single biggest differences between a PVEer with none and a fully geared experienced PVPer. It gives massive amounts of DR, Armpen resist, crit resist, and CC resist. It is the difference between being one shotted by an encounter and being able to hold a node against another player.
2) SH Boons
8K power, 30K health etc. We all know how OP the stats the SH boons give are at end game. When a pug with no or low Guild SH is placed against a player with high SH boons it's gg. They're dead, can't compete with that type of stat difference.
3) Campaign boons
Completing a campaign in this game is like gaining the next 10 levels in any other game. Thus in most games if you hit level 70 and then complete Sharandar campaign you'd be level 80 and so on. When you put players who have completed all the campaigns against players who've completed none or one it's like putting a level 160 vs 70-80. It's when pugs die from deflect damage from the boons received from the campaigns.
4) Mounts
Legendary mounts give huuuuuuge bonuses. 4K Power, 4K arm pen, 25% ap back. Also their attacks such as the Lion mount which is extremely OP. Temp group shield/HP, knockback, prone. This makes capping nodes or continuing a CC rotation extremely easy for those who either luck into, or can afford it.
5) Drains
If you don't have wards and you fight a player with drains it's gg. You can't dodge, sprint, or use dailies. Just stand there and get killed. You lose all your defensive capabilities. Dumbest addition to the game ever imho.
6) Rings
Rings that grant stealth or take it away are the equivalent of rings that give the guardian fighter's shield to other classes or cause the guardian fighter to drop their shield. Any such gear is nonsensical and counter to balance.
7) Mount insignia bonuses
To get a full set of 3 insignia bonus mounts you must have 5 rare or epic mounts. Depending on the bonus you want they may be very expensive epic mounts. The heals from these bonuses are VERY strong. If you go against someone with full mount bonuses and you have none, they will out heal your damage and you will lose.
8) Class imbalance
This changes from mod to mod as the devs try to incorporate different tooltip changes or try to enhance the damage or CC of a class it's completely FOTM so I will not even mention what is OP this mod because in a few weeks it will very likely change and whatever I said here about a specific class will be irrelevant. Suffice to say the DEVS seem to have a hard time with metrics on how classes perform in PVP.
9) Composition of groups in PVP
Multiples of the same class is always imbalancing. Either because you don't have enough DPS because too many heal or tank classes, or you have too much DPS because you have multiple of the FOTM OP class, or because you have too many immortal classes, or because you have too many CC from the same class. 2 of any class takes away from the diversity of a group and is always imbalancing to matches.
Now that I've mentioned what I think are the most important issues facing PVP I will quickly run over their fixes.
1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9) Get rid of them from Domination. That's right, simply turn them off. All of them.
The reason mod 0-2 was the most balanced was because you mainly had the gear on your back, your build, and your skill. There were a few overperforming abilities but they were still the most balanced of all mods.
1) If you gave all toons an equal amount of tenacity on their character sheet and simply gave all the gear different stats or bonuses so players can mix and match then suddenly PVPers would enjoy PVEing again to get their gear. No longer would the game be divided into PVE and PVP as was done when tenacity was introduced.
2-7) Get rid of them, turn them off in PVP. All of them. Then the difference in stats comes from gear choices, refined gear, and refined enchants which is minimal compared to all these other boons and stats. It will simplify the DEVS job as well allowing them to focus on class balance in PVP without extraneous variables from interacting boons.
8) Which can only be done truly for PVP in an effective way if 2-7 are done away with. Then you can tone down piercing damage appropriately to put it in line with the other classes and you can more closely monitor high CC classes to make sure there's breaks in their rotations where they are vulnerable. Otherwise players can use rescue devices from gear, from insignias, from boons. This is the surest way, by getting rid of extranous variables, to balance PVP.
9) Force rainbows. This game was meant to be played with a diversity of classes. Make that happen. Stop allowing players to form OP groups based off of comp and make all the classes relevant for their various differing roles in PVP.
THats it. I just balanced PVP. Took me 10 minutes to write and everyone who PVPs either casually or expressly knows this is true.
Thanks for your time.
If you agree give me a +1
If you disagree I think your statement, if honest, will have to be "but I worked so hard or got so lucky to get that _____" fill in the blank. However, feel free to post your disagreement as well.
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
Post edited by ltgamesttv#0999 on
13
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
If you want matchmaking to count, you must allow it to form the teams or at least balance the match. For example, even with all the changes above we can agree that a 5-men premade of experienced PvPers would faceroll a team of new players or normal players. So matchmaking must wait for either another similar premade or a pug team of seasoned PvPers.
Premades should also not be able to stack classes but should be forced to follow the "rainbow" rule.
Unless this is done, you would still have one-sided matches. In fact, i would say that even in module 1 and 2 it happened a lot to see premades of big PvP guilds spawncamping or turning a match into a 1-sided massacre. Which means that there's more, when it comes to balance, than just gear/ class balance/ powercreep.
This is my opinion.
The reason PVP guilds were formed was so they could fight each other. This would happen again if everything else were normalized as I've suggested. I think you're overly biased against premade groups. Mod 0-2 if you had a decent team you could totally win against a Premade, I had done so on multiple occasions.
*addendum
If new players get facerolled by an experienced team, that's not lopsided if it's skill. It's called winning. There's nothing that prevents anyone from putting together a team and getting good. This type of statement sounds like you want a game built around your favorite style of FFA. Where every match is a pug match and PMs only fight PMs until the last of them die out. You always sound as though you're on a crusade against Premade PVP altogether.
Premade rainbow PVP always has and always will be THE standard of PVP. It used to dominate the domination matches with most pugs who liked the idea of PVP eventually joining a guild to go out and PVP. If you didn't enjoy it you simply didn't do it. Now if they incorporate a solo Q as it looks they're leaning towards, then there is no excuse. You already have what you want.
If anything I would say 3 Q's. Solo Q, Regular Q (as it is now), and Premade Lobby for Premade fights and inhouses. This in combination with my proposed changes gives a complete PVP package. Then they could work on adding PVP content or refurbishing old PVP content with these changes and PVP would come alive again.
I clearly wrote, quite simply, that matchmaking must consider also experience and skill (this is why ELO system exists) to create matches as balanced as possible.
No bias here tyrion. Just common sense. But it looks like you like to call me bias even when there's nothing biased in my posts O.o
Now that said, ELO will work when players start coming back. It worked well during NCL which is the other thing they need to reinstate after doing this to reinvigorate PVP. If they follow what I've said in this post verbatim and add an NCL, this game would be given new life instantly.
The problem with all of this, it's unreasonable. Devs need to make money, so they probably feel they need all those pay-2-win features in PVP. Strongholds, Boons, Legendaries, Insignia Bonuses. They easily could not have enabled the new Mount system in PVP, but that would have excluded a good bunch of potential customers. Look at the new Weapons. There is literally no need to get them to orange other than PVP. And with the upcoming bs change on the keys, progression is tied to ZEN keys more than ever. Greedy HAMSTER, but it's unfortunately how we roll around here... Keys, Lockboxes and RNG.
So I'm not sure that the elements that would make good PVP fit really well with the business side of things, at least not with the current state the game is in. I guess there will be a major PVP update at some point going forward and the devs definitely need to find answers if they want PVP to play a vital role in the game again.
Also, they could sell more in transmutes and other frivolous things if they would simply make some cool stuff for the Zen market.
Also there is no pay 2 win that players are paying for just so they can wreck in PVP. Most PVP guilds are already end game, and it's boring as hamster to stomp pugs. They will end up losing money in the current scheme as all PVPers eventually fizzle and stop.
But ;
Also there is no pay 2 win that players are paying for just so they can wreck in PVP
Made me laugh that is such a false statement, just look at some of the newly created Hrs with 4.3 +item lvl and every time a class gets to be the new fotm in pvp some of the high end pvp guild players suddenly have full artifact mount etc on them in matter of days...
You might argue otherwise but elite pvp guilds are full of peeps that are p2w its just the way it works in every p2w game,,,
You also misquoted me out of context: "Also there is no pay 2 win that players are paying for just so they can wreck in PVP. Most PVP guilds are already end game, and it's boring as hamster to stomp pugs. They will end up losing money in the current scheme as all PVPers eventually fizzle and stop." Is what I said.
Most end game "elite" PVPers play the game enough to make the system work for them. I.E. they buy Zen with AD, not the other way around.
Thanks for your reply
Would be great if we had more base of builds and gear in PvP vice all these bonuses and boons floating around.
That's the most honest answer anyone can and will give you.
If the suggested changes were implemented, a gear gap from enchantments, artifacts and artifact equipment (although from those 3, the enchantments are the most expensive / farm heavy) would remain - is this what you mean by "gear gap"? Because the other stuff is pretty easy to get / farm.
If this is what you mean, then you're right: this "gear gap" would remain. But with a more popular PvP and given a few months for the ELO / leaderboard to actually work, a 2k player wouldn't fight a 4k player - and rarer and rarer happened during NCL, for example, where the leaderboard started to work. That's the point. And the suggested changes are a rather faster and easier way to achieve a more popular PvP than dealing with a gear gap.
Would it be even more balanced without a gear gap? I guess so, but what is gear progression then for? You don't really need it for PvE. Without an incentive to gear up, players aren't as likely to spend money - and Cryptic / PWE make less money. Since Neverwinter is free to play, Cryptic / PWE don't get any money from an initial buy or monthly subscription.
You have to look at it as a business perspective as well.
I'd be interested if you can name a free to play MMORPG with PvP which doesn't have some kind of gear progression and therefore a gap. That you're happy with the current balance is quite an interesting statement. I just let it speak for itself. That is just plainly wrong. If you have been around since Mod 0, and call Mod 10.5 "the most balanced" I really don't know what to tell you. If you haven't been around since Mod 0, you can't and shouldn't make such a statement. That is certainly a good thing, but it doesn't make this module the "arguably most balanced yet", when you've been around long enough to know better.
If the things I propose were incorporated, absolutely none of the statements you just made make any sense at all. These only make sense in light of how things are, not in how I propose they should be. I think you've gotten confused somewhere man.
Dota 2 is a great example. But I'm not going to hold Cryptic to that standard. Not all companies and games can live up to that. However, it would be wise of them to lessen the gear differences to prevent the PVP community from dying further. You don't know who I am or my history and I don't know yours either but for you to not be able to come up with specific examples illustrating your point, I will assume you're just an old player who was never really part of the high end PVP community who disagrees with my points. Or you are a very disgruntled player who thinks they are playing an underpowered class who was never really part of the high end PVP community who disagrees with my points.
It is really quite interesting that you simply disagree but do not provide a list of all the modules that were more balanced than the current one. I don't even know if you remember module 2 when GWFs where overpowered. How about around 4-5 when Trickster Rogues can 2v1 TWO BIS Elite PVP players? Did you enjoy the 2 hour premades when Paladins were introduced or are you just bluffing and don't remember that either? I can keep going on and on but I think unless you yourself introduce specific examples from past modules, I don't think I can argue with someone who is from a different part of the game (no matter if it was a beta-player).
Of course the current mod isn't perfect. This is Cryptic for crying out loud. Rogues and Guardian fighters are still the best classes for clearing and Control Wizards play a pivotal role but my point was that never has class balance carried so little weight in fixing PVP compared to gear differences.
In the current PvP? You seriously think a, say, Greater Negation compared to a Transcendent Negation is the source of more imbalance than i.e. 2 high-end GFs in one team, with one or even none in the other? Wow. Dota 2 isn't a MMORPG. I specified that. Otherwise you're right, that game is a good example. Mod 0 - 1. If you were an active PvP player during that time, I thought I wouldn't have to specify that (*). If you weren't around at that time, the named mods wouldn't mean much to you.
(*) There were always problems with balance and there probably always will be - even in the mods I mentioned (Lashing Blade 1-shot TRs, i.e.). But one can't deny PvP was way more popular (% wise with the amount of active players) in those days and that wasn't only because there was a smaller gear / boon / mount gap. But because the classes itself were pretty balanced - at least more than they are now.
EDIT: Either way, please let's get back to topic. The suggested changes of this thread do help to make PvP more balanced and popular - with less effort than dealing with the gear gap, as the gear most likely will never ever be equalized.
Some players not many any more since portal is down and praying boots are nul etc etc.
+1 on your suggestions that is fair and good enough but why you feel a need to defend high end pvp guilds and their players when it comes to pw2 is beyond me nobody will listen to that any way,
What need to be added is new maps with different goals to win, having only one type of map with same winning system is not helping at all to make pvp more popular....
As far as for maps, I completely agree we need new maps after balance and NCL have been incorporated. These things would literally breathe new life into the game. The mechanics of this game are the best, if they would simply balance PVP you'd see an influx of players back into PVP who would then suggest this game to other players.
I could 100% turn this game around in terms of the negativity fostered by PVP if I had the reigns (not the coding bit, no chops here, just managerial power). I think most end game PVPers could, especially Legacy players.
Always good to hear from such a friendly fellow on the forums Marnival, thanks for your sincerity both here on the forums and in game. Your input is always appreciated and welcome! Please send tells any time you'd like
Thanks man!
go all the way with it and make all chars PvP with no more than their gear and build, which will leave the remaining members of the PvP community to feel cheated since all the boons, gear, guild building etc, was all for nothing.
Indy - XB1 & PS4 - GF
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The Kanye West of Neverwinter
What he suggest is what makes most successful pvp games just that successful.
If you even the play field it will attract more players and if you involve more skill then gear it will challenge the same players more.
Now they just win due to gear but trust me real pvp players will find a way to excel when it comes to improve them self in finding new set ups-team work etc etc.
Stomping pugs all day long with only 1 type of map is far more cheating the pvp community then putting up a challenge for them and different types of maps like carry the flag etc etc.
Tolkienbuff nailed it pretty much to the core imho and that is from my 15 years experience from different pvp games.
We can ofc disagree on many things but that in the current state pvp is close to dead that is a fact...
(*) Unfortunately "gear over skill" is present in many free-to-play MMORPGs, but I wish it wouldn't be. Or at least not as harsh - therefore the suggestions of this thread.
One could reply now (exaggerated): Those people I can only tell: I could and even did pay for such games. But none of them have the feel to the combat as Neverwinter does. So I'm gonna try my hardest to make it as balanced as possible (with an eye on whole "free-to-play game, so they gonna make money somehow" premise).
In my opinion, it might have not been perfect but it was much, much better than current situation. During NCL i also experienced many times how a match could be reversed through communication and teamplay. I played 200+ matches and i think i ended up, for example, in a full premade vs pug match, only 2/3 times. Most of the times the matches were balanced or at least not one-sided.
As a player who has been exclusively pve up until recently, but was an active pvper in many mmos prior, I've been especially confused about the need for the tenacity stat. Needing to essentially have two COMPLETELY separate sets of gear for pve and pvp is a major inconvenience when it comes to inventory space, time it takes to individually switch every piece of equipment you're wearing AND enchantments, etc. Players like me are discouraged from doing both pvp and pve because it's too much hassle to assemble, store, and constantly switch between all the gear. It would be really nice if, when I wanted to pvp, I only had to switch a couple pieces of gear. Tenacity to me just feels like a money making tool for the game devs, as it gave them the excuse to make a bunch more gear for people to buy. In my opinion it should either be severely nerfed or just removed completely.
I've also seen a common attitude of "if you don't like it just go do x y z", completely understating how much it actually takes to accomplish. There's clearly a large barrier to new and solo players in pvp and instead of encouraging them to do what it takes to improve it simply screams at them to go away. Not everyone has the time or money to endlessly grind for diamonds or gear and not everyone has the means to find and join a guild that fits them. It's easy to downplay the difficulty of something when you've long since done it, and I see a lot of that here. Try to remember how hard it was when you weren't as experienced as you are now.
If you want to improve the pvp community, you need to make it fun and enticing for newcomers so people will get hooked and build the population. This means taking steps to make randoms and pve'ers at least mildly competitive in matches so they'll have fun and keep coming back for more. Joining 20 matches in a row and getting smoked every time is not fun, and it's not going to encourage people to keep coming back.