the problem is everything should have level requirement. Including enchantments. You cannot have a player level 60 running around with trans items and rank 12 enchants.
I didn't vote, as I don't PvP, however.... I think a lot of people are missing out on one little detail. The game is D&D based. The devs have to stick with D&D lore when making any content for the game. Wizards of the Coast has to approve everything. But... PvP is not a very large part of D&D. While it does happen, it was never created for that. The powers available were never balanced for it. I think this plays a huge role in the problems with PvP in Neverwinter.
do u know how much time, money, effort pvp player have spent to get to the top tier in the pvp community? as a community manager ur answer to this was not wise, which u supposed to be.. i am so angry to read ur statement.. why the devs crated pvp at the first place? if pvp not a major issue on d&d.. and btw pvp is a big thing among mmorpg!!
You do know that the Mods are allowed to have their own opinions, right?
As for why they created PvP in the first place... ".. and btw pvp is a big thing among mmorpg!! " That's why. The beta version didn't have a PvP element. They were "forced" to add one on, because you can't have a mmorpg without it.
1
forumnamesuxsMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 490Arc User
class and game mechanics
Everything listed in the poll should indeed be addressed, but I think the main issue right now, is the AD reward. I have a relatively large amount of good matches on weekends, but for some reason, almost every match on week days are ruined by AD hunters. Some argue that they bring fresh blood to the pits, but I seriously doubt that anyone in it for the AD, have ever thought "hey, this was nice, I want to do more of this".
forumnamesuxsMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 490Arc User
class and game mechanics
Personally, I think the reward system for PvP could possibly need a rework all together. I'm not sure how exactly, though. The fact that you can use it to farm glory for salvage rings, should probably be addressed. I'd like to see PvP as something being done just for the heck of it. A separate game withing the game, played for actual entertainment purposes. For this to be possible, I think perhaps dual spec need to be implemented.
Personally, I think the reward system for PvP could possibly need a rework all together.
I'm not sure how exactly, though.
The fact that you can use it to farm glory for salvage rings, should probably be addressed.
I'd like to see PvP as something being done just for the heck of it. A separate game withing the game, played for actual entertainment purposes. For this to be possible, I think perhaps dual spec need to be implemented.
Prevent artifacts, mounts, boons, weapons, enchantments from being applicable to PVP. Make BIS PVP gear attainable by anyone in a reasonable amount of time. PVP should be about skill and teamplay not diamonds.
I didn't vote, as I don't PvP, however.... I think a lot of people are missing out on one little detail. The game is D&D based. The devs have to stick with D&D lore when making any content for the game. Wizards of the Coast has to approve everything. But... PvP is not a very large part of D&D. While it does happen, it was never created for that. The powers available were never balanced for it. I think this plays a huge role in the problems with PvP in Neverwinter.
do u know how much time, money, effort pvp player have spent to get to the top tier in the pvp community? as a community manager ur answer to this was not wise, which u supposed to be.. i am so angry to read ur statement.. why the devs crated pvp at the first place? if pvp not a major issue on d&d.. and btw pvp is a big thing among mmorpg!!
Oh my, I feel almost sad. Almost
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
0
demonmongerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,350Arc User
Class Balance.
Meh
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
0
demonmongerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,350Arc User
Class Balance.
Pvp Is a big deal in d&d. It's how some dms kills off characters
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
The biggest issue with PVP is that there are MULTIPLE "biggest issues with PVP"
If I were to list the #1 issue it would likely be Tenacity.
- Tenacity needs to be removed from gear as a STAT and instead just given to every player as a "base". Levels 1-60 players would keep the same 10% across the board. Starting at 61, players would be awarded various %s per level. (Just one example/option).
This enables ALL players to play PVP regardless of what gear they want. Eliminating ONE of the "gear gap" issues of the game. PVE players dont need a set of PVP gear, they can play in their normal everyday gear. This also re-bridges the gap they created when they did this, so now PVP players can wear even PVE gear into PVP - ALL based SOLELY on the stats they want and not "does it have tenacity". More gear = more choices = more fun. More FREE tenacity = more balance across the board.
My #2 Issue would be Boons. They should honestly remove ALL boons from PVP - the ONLY exception being the PVP boons - which are minor. ALL the module boons, the SH boons, EVERYTHING.
This will massively reduce the "power gap" (not the stat power) between BIS players and NON BIS players. IT also reduces the gap between PVP players and PVE players - who stack different stats. If you give a PVE player 20k extra stats what is he likely to take? Some combination of crit or recovery or power (depending on the former #s). What does a PVPer take? Maybe HP maybe Lifesteal, maybe ARP? They are DIFFERENT stats designed for different things. So it doesnt matter that the PVE players get 20k more crit, when crit is HAMSTER in PVP. The PVP player gets to spend his stats in things that have a BIGGER impact in PVP than the PVE stats - again, its just a massive gear divide.
Doing both these things, would level the playing field and get more players across the board doing PVP. No longer needing all the "PVP boons" or "PVP Gear" a player can use their boons for PVE and wear PVE gear and still be able to be competitive in PVP.
My #3 issue would NEXT be Matchmaking. This is a tricky one. With the removal of tenacity as a variable (since everyone will have the same #s) and the removal of boons. You could NOW base Matchmaking off Itemlevel rather than ELO. This can be very tricky with gear swapping, so you would need a way to prevent "gear swapping" to get a lower ItemLevel for the Que, then swap to PVP gear. You can either gear lock players when they Que for PVP, or merely create a "high water mark" of sorts that tracks your "highest item level achieved" and would base it off that. Either would work.
But those 3 would create fair and balanced and FUN PVP again. Sure you might have to tweak some items after this, but removing all that "stat inflation" and "gear gap" in PVP would make it a MUCH more fun place for everyone.
So what Ayroux is suggesting is to first normalize tenacity, then take away boons to normalize stats then change their matchmaking algorithm from 'completely random and stupid' to based on 'item-level'.
I pretty much agree that it's gear gap which everyone should be focusing on. Changing from 2-classes per team to forced rainbows has minimal effect.
The main problem is matchmakin: If all classes are balanced if al mechanic are balanced if piercing damage get out of the equation, you still won't deal any damage to a 4,5k full insignias player, but he is gona 4 hit you. If a new player wants to go to domination with 1,6k item lvl, he is gonna get matched agains 3-3,5k people which will kill him in 2 hits. But what if he get matched agains 2k? he is gonna take a chance to kill someone and he will get fun, and will come back soon to pvp again. That is a increasing river of new player doing pvp and improving even more matchmakin. The problem is that new players go once to pvp and notice that they not even scratch other player and they die in 1 hit, so they won't come back, even if they hit 3k. Also tenacity is a problem, back in the days i remember people with and without tenacity playing happly, because you can sacrifice some stats to gain a little bit more defense and control resistence (like 15%) was a tough decision.....more damage or more survivability? or something in the middle (black ice set).
The biggest issue with PVP is that there are MULTIPLE "biggest issues with PVP"
My #3 issue would NEXT be Matchmaking. This is a tricky one. With the removal of tenacity as a variable (since everyone will have the same #s) and the removal of boons. You could NOW base Matchmaking off Itemlevel rather than ELO. This can be very tricky with gear swapping, so you would need a way to prevent "gear swapping" to get a lower ItemLevel for the Que, then swap to PVP gear. You can either gear lock players when they Que for PVP, or merely create a "high water mark" of sorts that tracks your "highest item level achieved" and would base it off that. Either would work.
But those 3 would create fair and balanced and FUN PVP again. Sure you might have to tweak some items after this, but removing all that "stat inflation" and "gear gap" in PVP would make it a MUCH more fun place for everyone.
Indeed such issues must be ALL addressed. This poll is not useful in my opinion exactly because the OP wants people to point 1 issue when there are multiple issues all equally in need of a fix to achieve balance. So while you can point out which issue is the most relevant to you, it does not really matter since fixing only one of them would not allow PvP to achieve true balance.
About matchmaking, i disagree however. iLvL is not enough to separate players in rankings. Let me quote one of your guildies:
@pando Exactly, communication & experience are by no means "little" advantages. The thing is, it's not AD/Zen or time gated (at least communication). The game has an implemented voice connection in parties as well. If you are too lazy to use it, that's not the fault of premades.
It's helpful to remind people what they wrote in the past too (so that they will not deny it in other posts ).
I think the way of thinking is, however, not good if you want to achieve balance. The aim is to get balanced and fun matches. So you can't simply leave a flawed matchmaking and then blame the other players if they don't play PvP like a competitive PvPer. The game has in.game chat, but not everyone want to use an headset or voice chat when playing, to put it simple. Does that mean that they deserve a bad PvP experience? Or is it the duty of the game to make the experience fun for every kind of player and not just for those who play in a certain way? Matchmaking based on "performance" is better imho than just an iLvL based matchmaking. You must keep into account communication and experience (which our good sayajin pointed out to be "by no means little advantages"), and this way you can avoid mismatches to a larger degree.
But i agree with you ayroux when you say that all issues must be fixed. You can point out if in your opinion one has a bigger impact than another, but in the end you won't have true balance unless you fix everything and keep everything into account.
Matchmaking must be based on multiple aspects. ELO keeps into account iLvL PLUS experience and other factors, so i'd say that matchmaking based on ELO > iLvL based matchmaking.
Let me re-quote the mighty player sayajin on this line, so everyone remembers:
Exactly, communication & experience are by no means "little" advantages.
So what Ayroux is suggesting is to first normalize tenacity, then take away boons to normalize stats then change their matchmaking algorithm from 'completely random and stupid' to based on 'item-level'.
I pretty much agree that it's gear gap which everyone should be focusing on. Changing from 2-classes per team to forced rainbows has minimal effect.
Yes exactly. Most people coming to play this game today have ZERO idea how the game was when it first released. It was amazing - simply put. It was so clean, crisp, and wonderful. Sure there were minor issues back then, but the stat inflation this game has seen is unreal.
PVP needs to be normalized to a large extent. The amount of "acceptable" gear gap for a healthy PVP scene has to directly correlate to the population in the PVP scene. The current level of gear gap would not be an issue if the game had 100,000 players PVPing all the time. Why? Because then the "1%-ers" (aka BIS players) would make up 1,000+ players which means a very healthy amount of competition.
When you only have 100 players PVPing, however, there are only a small handful of BIS players at any given time, which means there isnt enough competition.
Due to low population in this game, PVP HAS to be normalized to a degree - not completely - in order to make it more competitive.
- normalize tenacity across the board - normalize stats by removing boons from PVP - Remove ELO and now you can use "item level" as a "matchmaking metric" (FYI - you cant use Ilevel now because so many things like boons dont factor into Ilevel).
It is not just class balance that is an issue it is when players see how OP one class can be then they can just add way to much to that class with insignia's, artifacts, enchantments, weapon and armor set bonuses. PvP has what used to be called exploits is now just normal functions in the game. It all needs to be simplified. I would not mind seeing us all in matches with nothing but green PvP gear and rank 5 enchantments no boons no artifacts no nothing. That would for sure take so much of the balancing issues out of the matches gear gap would be gone and with less equipment will cause less ways to exploit any class. It would almost be like the good old days of mod 1 and 2 PvP. FYI i tried at one point of starting a channel that would have had rules set in place of the sort. Just kept getting shut down from chat bans and was to had to do by just word of mouth.
I think your solution kills motivation and "unique-ness" I dont think you need to only allow rank 5s and green gear. I think there is plenty of room for some "gear advantages" to come into play, but a LARGE part of the issue is the stat inflation as you have said here.
_ Insigia's artifacts, enchants and the primary culprit: Boons.
As you said. The "golden" era of this game was the Mod 0 -mod 2 days (arguably). I think right around mod 3 it "peaked" and went downhill quickly. After mod 3, it was just a downhill path with more of the garbage "power creep" and "power gap" that items provide, as well as more and more boons. This was a bad direction to follow IMO.
PVP needs to be normalized. PVE can keep its power creep. PVP needs to be stripped down, back to how things were in the old days and only then will you see more people go try pvp and more competitive matches.
I didn't vote, as I don't PvP, however.... I think a lot of people are missing out on one little detail. The game is D&D based. The devs have to stick with D&D lore when making any content for the game. Wizards of the Coast has to approve everything. But... PvP is not a very large part of D&D. While it does happen, it was never created for that. The powers available were never balanced for it. I think this plays a huge role in the problems with PvP in Neverwinter.
do u know how much time, money, effort pvp player have spent to get to the top tier in the pvp community? as a community manager ur answer to this was not wise, which u supposed to be.. i am so angry to read ur statement.. why the devs crated pvp at the first place? if pvp not a major issue on d&d.. and btw pvp is a big thing among mmorpg!!
When the mods (forum moderators, all they do is monitor the forums, prevent abuse, & facilitate communications) post officially, they have orange colored text. This was a personal opinion posted by a player that is also a mod. They are allowed to have personal opinions about the game.
Comments
You cannot have a player level 60 running around with trans items and rank 12 enchants.
She is a forum moderator, not a community manager. She doesn't speak on behalf of the devs in anyway.
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As for why they created PvP in the first place... ".. and btw pvp is a big thing among mmorpg!! " That's why. The beta version didn't have a PvP element. They were "forced" to add one on, because you can't have a mmorpg without it.
I have a relatively large amount of good matches on weekends, but for some reason, almost every match on week days are ruined by AD hunters.
Some argue that they bring fresh blood to the pits, but I seriously doubt that anyone in it for the AD, have ever thought "hey, this was nice, I want to do more of this".
I'm not sure how exactly, though.
The fact that you can use it to farm glory for salvage rings, should probably be addressed.
I'd like to see PvP as something being done just for the heck of it. A separate game withing the game, played for actual entertainment purposes. For this to be possible, I think perhaps dual spec need to be implemented.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
It's how some dms kills off characters
If I were to list the #1 issue it would likely be Tenacity.
- Tenacity needs to be removed from gear as a STAT and instead just given to every player as a "base". Levels 1-60 players would keep the same 10% across the board. Starting at 61, players would be awarded various %s per level. (Just one example/option).
This enables ALL players to play PVP regardless of what gear they want. Eliminating ONE of the "gear gap" issues of the game. PVE players dont need a set of PVP gear, they can play in their normal everyday gear. This also re-bridges the gap they created when they did this, so now PVP players can wear even PVE gear into PVP - ALL based SOLELY on the stats they want and not "does it have tenacity". More gear = more choices = more fun. More FREE tenacity = more balance across the board.
My #2 Issue would be Boons. They should honestly remove ALL boons from PVP - the ONLY exception being the PVP boons - which are minor.
ALL the module boons, the SH boons, EVERYTHING.
This will massively reduce the "power gap" (not the stat power) between BIS players and NON BIS players. IT also reduces the gap between PVP players and PVE players - who stack different stats. If you give a PVE player 20k extra stats what is he likely to take? Some combination of crit or recovery or power (depending on the former #s). What does a PVPer take? Maybe HP maybe Lifesteal, maybe ARP? They are DIFFERENT stats designed for different things. So it doesnt matter that the PVE players get 20k more crit, when crit is HAMSTER in PVP. The PVP player gets to spend his stats in things that have a BIGGER impact in PVP than the PVE stats - again, its just a massive gear divide.
Doing both these things, would level the playing field and get more players across the board doing PVP. No longer needing all the "PVP boons" or "PVP Gear" a player can use their boons for PVE and wear PVE gear and still be able to be competitive in PVP.
My #3 issue would NEXT be Matchmaking. This is a tricky one. With the removal of tenacity as a variable (since everyone will have the same #s) and the removal of boons. You could NOW base Matchmaking off Itemlevel rather than ELO. This can be very tricky with gear swapping, so you would need a way to prevent "gear swapping" to get a lower ItemLevel for the Que, then swap to PVP gear. You can either gear lock players when they Que for PVP, or merely create a "high water mark" of sorts that tracks your "highest item level achieved" and would base it off that. Either would work.
But those 3 would create fair and balanced and FUN PVP again. Sure you might have to tweak some items after this, but removing all that "stat inflation" and "gear gap" in PVP would make it a MUCH more fun place for everyone.
I pretty much agree that it's gear gap which everyone should be focusing on. Changing from 2-classes per team to forced rainbows has minimal effect.
If all classes are balanced if al mechanic are balanced if piercing damage get out of the equation, you still won't deal any damage to a 4,5k full insignias player, but he is gona 4 hit you.
If a new player wants to go to domination with 1,6k item lvl, he is gonna get matched agains 3-3,5k people which will kill him in 2 hits.
But what if he get matched agains 2k? he is gonna take a chance to kill someone and he will get fun, and will come back soon to pvp again. That is a increasing river of new player doing pvp and improving even more matchmakin.
The problem is that new players go once to pvp and notice that they not even scratch other player and they die in 1 hit, so they won't come back, even if they hit 3k.
Also tenacity is a problem, back in the days i remember people with and without tenacity playing happly, because you can sacrifice some stats to gain a little bit more defense and control resistence (like 15%) was a tough decision.....more damage or more survivability? or something in the middle (black ice set).
About matchmaking, i disagree however. iLvL is not enough to separate players in rankings. Let me quote one of your guildies: It's helpful to remind people what they wrote in the past too (so that they will not deny it in other posts
I think the way of thinking is, however, not good if you want to achieve balance. The aim is to get balanced and fun matches. So you can't simply leave a flawed matchmaking and then blame the other players if they don't play PvP like a competitive PvPer. The game has in.game chat, but not everyone want to use an headset or voice chat when playing, to put it simple. Does that mean that they deserve a bad PvP experience? Or is it the duty of the game to make the experience fun for every kind of player and not just for those who play in a certain way? Matchmaking based on "performance" is better imho than just an iLvL based matchmaking. You must keep into account communication and experience (which our good sayajin pointed out to be "by no means little advantages"), and this way you can avoid mismatches to a larger degree.
But i agree with you ayroux when you say that all issues must be fixed. You can point out if in your opinion one has a bigger impact than another, but in the end you won't have true balance unless you fix everything and keep everything into account.
Matchmaking must be based on multiple aspects. ELO keeps into account iLvL PLUS experience and other factors, so i'd say that matchmaking based on ELO > iLvL based matchmaking.
Let me re-quote the mighty player sayajin on this line, so everyone remembers:
Exactly, communication & experience are by no means "little" advantages.
http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/1225097/make-the-solo-pvp-queue-permanent/p4
PVP needs to be normalized to a large extent. The amount of "acceptable" gear gap for a healthy PVP scene has to directly correlate to the population in the PVP scene. The current level of gear gap would not be an issue if the game had 100,000 players PVPing all the time. Why? Because then the "1%-ers" (aka BIS players) would make up 1,000+ players which means a very healthy amount of competition.
When you only have 100 players PVPing, however, there are only a small handful of BIS players at any given time, which means there isnt enough competition.
Due to low population in this game, PVP HAS to be normalized to a degree - not completely - in order to make it more competitive.
- normalize tenacity across the board
- normalize stats by removing boons from PVP
- Remove ELO and now you can use "item level" as a "matchmaking metric" (FYI - you cant use Ilevel now because so many things like boons dont factor into Ilevel). I think your solution kills motivation and "unique-ness" I dont think you need to only allow rank 5s and green gear. I think there is plenty of room for some "gear advantages" to come into play, but a LARGE part of the issue is the stat inflation as you have said here.
_ Insigia's artifacts, enchants and the primary culprit: Boons.
As you said. The "golden" era of this game was the Mod 0 -mod 2 days (arguably). I think right around mod 3 it "peaked" and went downhill quickly. After mod 3, it was just a downhill path with more of the garbage "power creep" and "power gap" that items provide, as well as more and more boons. This was a bad direction to follow IMO.
PVP needs to be normalized. PVE can keep its power creep. PVP needs to be stripped down, back to how things were in the old days and only then will you see more people go try pvp and more competitive matches.